trnswrld
Posts: 1064
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

TWA Orders A330 Again?

Thu Nov 02, 2000 2:19 pm

In a recent previous post someone just mentioned hearing TWA will be placing an order for a few more
767-300's and ALSO Airbus A330's. Now im not trying to start any rumors but why is the A330 order supposedly coming back up again after the previous order was finally cancelled?
Any input is appreciated.
Thanks much
 
Fleet Service
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2000 11:58 am

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Thu Nov 02, 2000 10:21 pm

Airbus is probably making TW "An offer they can't refuse"
Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
 
Guest

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 1:56 am

On Marc's rhumor ordering page it speculates that TW will be ordering A330 equipment. Its is confirmed however that more 767-300ER ships will come on property. The A330 is far from certain. Some points:

1) TW has 9 million dollars tied up with Airbus regarding the old A330 order, so as TW wants utility for its money and AI wants customers, something may happen.

2) The A330/340 is having a difficult time selling in the Americas. Apart from Canada 3000, Air Canada, LAN Chile, and Aerolineas, the craft have made very little inroads. While TW is anything but an industry benchmark, getting some coppies into the hands of a US major carrier may in their opinion, get the 330 some more attention.

3) Also, TW has indicated its willingness to increase Asian flying by adding an STL-NRT route. The A330-300 is capable of completing the mission.

4) A330 line of craft have superb cargo capacity and weight abilities. TW's cargo department is growing in importance with recent codeshare agreements with ANA and SIA. Also, the new Hawaiian and Carribean destinations are large cargo markets.

5) Airbus likes to sell aircraft regardless of how much they cost to manufacture.

All this contribute to the possibility the A330-200/300 may be in double globe livery in the next 5 years.
 
Guest

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 2:02 am

Airbus is probably making TW "An offer they can't refuse"

Given TWA's current financial situation, Airbus must be giving them to TWA for free.

Pat
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 2:23 am

Watch out when you make jokes about Airbus' "special prices". Someone will always get offended.  
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Guest

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 2:26 am



AirCanadaSFO wrote:
-------------------------------

Given TWA's current financial situation, Airbus must be giving them to TWA for free.

Pat

TWA would probably not acquire any widebody aircraft directly from the manufacturer. More likely, the A330-200 would be leased from ILFC. TWA is also considering the B777from the same source. Operating leases require little if any cash payments in advance.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 3:25 am

Having been in the leasing business.. Some corrections,

TWA will probably do a sale lease back transaction with similtanious closings so they get the 9 million with Airbus back in some form.

Leasing companies require a fairly large initial payment pre-delivery or at delivery to cover maint. spares deposit, delivery and deposit on the plane, taxes, etc.

TWA will likely order the A330-200 on a 2003 or 2004 delivery schedule

The 767-300 fleet will continue to grow and 3 more copies are due in soon.

The A330-300 does not have the range for full load STL-NRT the A330-200 does.

TWA will likely do a combination lease/purchase with the next generation widebody similar to their 717 purchase that was an order for purchase not lease and the MD83s and 757s all of which have been recent new aircraft acquisitions. Used aircraft will likely all be leases.

Al
 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 4:23 am

It would make much more sense for TWA to order the 764/764ERX. The 767-400ERX definately has the range to make a STL-NRT flight, and it will have commonality with TWA's current 767 fleet. I'm sure they can get a deal from Boeing is they order 763's and 764's at the same time.
 
HPA318
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 1999 2:31 pm

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 6:13 am

I doubt it, theres too much competition ot there.Noone I know flies TWA anymore. They're getting rid of LIS/MXP.....they have nothing left.Where would they fly An A330/B777 from STL-MCO?lol lol....they dont need the capacity. They should stick to B757, maybe the -300, or the A320family of a/c..
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 6:25 am

I'd love to see the A330 or 777 in TWA colors. Russ, could the $9 million paid towards A330 orders be put towards the A318/ A319 orders should TWA not go with the 330?

Airbus has never let cost of manufacturing stand in the way of selling airplanes, Paris and Bonn (Berlin now, I guess) are more than happy to pick up the tab. Boeing at least has to take the hit when they discount.

I'm not sure why the A330/340 haven't done better in the US. The decisions by UA, AA, DL and CO to go with the 777 of course hurt Airbus, and NW has decided to wring every last possible mile out of their DC-10s (like their DC-9s). The willingness of US carriers to buy Airbus narrowbodies indicates that they don't have political or nationalist objections. The US Airways order may open doors.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Guest

RE: HPA318

Fri Nov 03, 2000 6:30 am

Why don't you just give TWA a chance here? They were in a major rut a few years ago, but at least they are trying to turn themselves around, and are doing so. You can't just turn around & buy new planes & start up a long @$$ int'l route such as STL-NRT overnight.

By the way, if you think HP is a good airline, you need help. I read in Airways that America West was ranked as America's Worst Airline. TWA may have lost some of their former glamour, but at least they are trying to get it back, and are getting it back bit by bit.
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3890
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: HPA318

Fri Nov 03, 2000 6:59 am

TWA is on the mend and on the move. When they throw off the noxious Karabu albatross in 2003, they will be in a very good position. Something that scarcely seemed possible a few years ago.

US got its narrowbody house in order first (on the order books, anyway, it'll take years for all 400 Airbuses to arrive) before selecting its flagship jumbo (A330). I wonder if TWA is taking a similar approach. TWA has selected its narrowbodies--717 and 318/319--and the 717s have started arriving. Maybe a jumbo order isn't far down the line.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 7:41 am

For the record,

The 767-400ERX and 767-400ER as well as the 767-400 do NOT have the range to fly STL-NRT.

Whomever stated that is wrong. The 767-400 family has no aircraft able to mach the range of the 767-300ER and the 767-300ER cannot go as far as the 767-200ER which is the only 767 family member that can fly STL-NRT nonstop (albeit it with significant load restrictions).

The A330-200 does have the range for STL-NRT nonstop.

TWA needs additional widebody lift in several markets including....

JFK-SJU
JFK-SDQ
JFK-LAX
JFK-SFO
STL-LAX
STL-SFO
STL-JFK
STL-LGA
STL-NRT
JFK-CAI-RUH
JFK-TLV
JFK-CDG
STL-CDG
STL-LGW
STL-MCO
STL-FRA
STL-OGG
STL-HNL

and more are all widebody routes for TWA

 
Guest

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 7:51 am

Whenever I hear or read "Karabu", my heart pounds, my face gets red, and I get furious. Not joking, it brings that much hate toward me. Carl Icahn is an airline rapist.

TurboTristar
 
wingman
Posts: 2769
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 7:57 am

I'd like to see Airbus sell 330s to TWA for the STL-NRT route. I assume they'd have to remove the "scare" pages from their website about 2 vs. 4. Otherwise, they might be accused of selling dangerously inadequate equipment for the mission.
 
Guest

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 9:36 am

Hi Jim.

As Vitale will tell you, TW has had difficulty negotiating with Airbus in securing all 18 million of an early 330 deposit for the narrowbodies. As yet only half of the original deposit went for the 318 and 319. The other hlaf may be forfeited if TW does not A) negotiate somehow B) order the 330. Al, am I correct?

US has ordered what 13 330s and no 340s for their proposed new Airbus fleet. However the future of these new ships is thrown into question should the UAL buyout proceed. If it does, which looks unlikely now, the 330s will be flipped back to Airbus Leasing or ILFC. Again Vitale can comment I think he used to work for the AIG leasing arm or GE. Albert?

Thank you for correctting me. Very much like the 767 family, for the 330, the -200 series has longer range than the -300 series. So, yes it is the A332 that can reach the Japanese capital. Post Karabu TW will have a lot of options on where it wants to go with long range flying. Perhaps, LIS, MAD, BCN, FCO, and MXP will be reopened (but I doubt it, considering the current labor issues), Caracas maybe served from JFK, and if TW joins an alliance and builds Trans Atlantic traffic, JFK-CDG could see a 332.

 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 10:05 am

The 767-400ERX should have enough range to cover STL-NRT nonstop. IMO, TWA's fleet should be just 717,737,757,767 in 10 years.
 
ahlfors
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 1:44 am

RE: 777gk

Fri Nov 03, 2000 10:06 am

so what are they going to do with those 318s on order???
 
Guest

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Fri Nov 03, 2000 10:20 am

I'm guessing at this one, but maybe....fly them.

The A318s will be used for long thin routes, LAX-SJU over the weekend will probably be A318.

This new supposed LAX-PLS will most likely be A318 Vitale suggests.

Other candidates?

JFK-ANU
JFK-Caracas
JFK-AUA

More Jamaican routes.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Sat Nov 04, 2000 12:27 am

777gk,

The 767-400ERX does NOT have the range for STL-NRT.

I stated that before. I suggest you check www.boeing.com for statistics. The 767-400ERX doesn't even have the range of the 767-200ER!

You are just like many who make up statistics and frankly give airliners.net the reputation of the laughingstock of the online aviation community. It is a shame the moderators do not censure incorrect information like yours. Would you cite a source for the supposed range of the 767-400ERX being able to fly STL-NRT? Are they moving STL closer to NRT or is NRT being moved closer to STL or both. My range figures came from the Boeing sales materials provided to GECAS. They included forward looking statement warnings as well. That means that boeing is only predicting the max range of the 767-400ERX and often it can be less then the original sales documents... (ie MD11, A340, 767-300ER were all short of their estimated sales document range!)

I worked for GECAS the largest leasing company in the aviation business. The stats I cited are accurate... Might I suggest some common aviation sources for research in the future.

www.dot.gov
dms.dot.gov
www.boeing.com
www.airbus.com
www.faa.gov

They are obvious and factual sources ! Use them!

As for the rest TWANeedsNOHelp has done a fairly good job of explaining things. I will leave it to Russ to go through the rest of the details.

Please people think before posting stuff that is made up or assumed. If you cannot cite a source then research it first.

Albert

http://www.MidwestWingsAirlines.com
albert@MidwestWingsAirlines.com
 
EWRspotter
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:41 pm

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Sat Nov 04, 2000 3:01 am

Albert,

You just accused a 764 pilot of not knowing what his aircraft is capable of (even if we are talking about a planned version of the 764).

As for your claims about the range of the 764 vs 762, I am unable to verify your claim on Boeing's web site. You may wish to double-check your figures before flaming others with your sarcasm on this board.

Boeing doesn't have range charts on their web site for the 764ERX, so we will have to make due with just range figures. They are as follows:

"Maximum Range" figures:
"767-200/-200ER": 6,602 statute miles
"Longer Range 767-400ER": 7,080 statute miles

The facts.
 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Sat Nov 04, 2000 4:36 am

Apparently Airbus is studying an increased gross weight version of the A330-300 - this is seen as a rival to the 777-200ER.

So TWA might order them to fly STL-NRT.

Also, couldn't the A333 orders be turned fairly easily into 345 ones?
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:08 am

EWRSpotter,

From Boeing.com

767-200ER range 7600miles
767-300ER range 7080miles
767-400ER range 6480miles

From presales literature by Boeing

767-400ERX range 6980miles

Hence everything I said is true. The flame justified and another factually incorrect post by another mistaken or I thought so poster has been made... (Namely you EWRSpotter!)

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/index.html
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:13 am

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767-400erx/product.html

Updated information from Boeing shows the 767-400ERX now has the same range as the 767-300ER at 7080 miles.

Still has the 767-200ER with much longer legs then either the 300ER/400ER/400ERX! I think it is time to acknowledge that both of you are mistaken and never checked the facts. You can use the links on this message and my previous to clearly see the correct information is available and you are clearly wrong.

Al
 
EWRspotter
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:41 pm

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:43 am

ACVITALE,

Rather than pointing to the real problem, namely Boeing's web site providing conflicting data, you continue to toss around insults. That should say something about your maturity.

My figures came from:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767-200/product.html

and

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767-400erx/product.html

The -200 page header graphic says "767-200/-200ER" but only provides one range figure in the data. It is not clear which model the range figure applies to.

When you compare the figures on the "technical specs" pages of both models (comparing apples to apples), the -400ERX has the higher range.
 
JumboClassic
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 4:37 am

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Sat Nov 04, 2000 6:33 am

EWRSpotter,

I have checke both 762 and 764's technical data on boeing's web site and found the conflictiong information. You can find the error by comparing the km range of the aircraft.

764ERX:
7,080 statute miles
6,150 nautical miles
11,390 km

762ER:
6,602 statute miles
12,300 km

I think what Boeing meant to say was that 762ER's range was 6,602 nautical miles, and not statute miles. This correspondes to the km difference (~ 900 km is about 450 nm). Hope this clears the confusion.
 
N960AS
Posts: 435
Joined: Mon May 01, 2000 3:46 am

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Sat Nov 04, 2000 6:36 am

777gk, where did you find TW is interested in 737s??? The airline has never operated them and as far as I know has no interest in them. They are one of the few US '737-free' airlines, lets keep it that way. I guess their fleet in 10 years will be like this
A318/9 - for long thin routes
717-200
757-200
767-300ER, the 762s will most likely be gone.
MD-80 (reduced numbers though, the youngest ones will only be 10 years old then so the MD-80 will be around for a while thank you)
...and maybe a new widebody???

~N960AS
 
EWRspotter
Posts: 60
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:41 pm

RE: TWA Orders A330 Again?

Sat Nov 04, 2000 7:00 am

JumboClassic,

Thanks for finding the discrepency on Boeing's web site and clarifying the situation.
 
HPA318
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 1999 2:31 pm

RE: HPA318

Mon Nov 06, 2000 2:38 pm

i never said HP was a good airline, I used to work for them not anymore, I just havent changed my name yet. I work for AA now, silverbird rules.TWA suuuuucccckkkkssss. There 200 year old employees suck tooo. If they want to be better they need to hire new people. They have old, nasty rude employees. They wont go anywhere without new people.

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