Starglider
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:02 am

Does anyone know what the current status/condition is of Lockheed L-188C(F) Electra G-FIZU? It is stored at Abbotsford, BC, Canada and owned by Conair.

It was phased out by Atlantic Airlines based at Coventry, UK in 2013 and flown to Abbotsford sometime later that year.

Reason I ask is because this aircraft (c/n 2014), to my knowledge, is the only ex-KLM Electra still in existence and wondering what its current condition is. The reference below mentions that it is still complete.

http://www.aviation-friends-cologne....lockheed-electra-l188-listing.html

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jetwashphotos/9480480251/in/photostream/

Being the only surviving ex-KLM aircraft, and probably the last Electra with a Hamilton Standard propeller system, Wouldn't it be great if this unique aircraft would some day be displayed in a Dutch museum?


Best regards,

Starglider
 
YVRLTN
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:24 am

Heres a photo I took two weeks ago, looks in pretty good condition and still has all her props


r
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Starglider
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:24 am

YVRLTN, thanks for sharing this very recent picture of the aircraft.

The caption next to the picture mentions G-FIZU moved to Abbortsford in 2011. Then I was mistaken in thinking she was still operational in 2013.

The final departure from Bournemouth must have taken place in 2011 but not published until january 2013, see link below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBxvb3bBkks

That implies she has been sitting idle for close to 3 years (?). Also the suggestion that she may not be owned by Conair but owned by a Technical College is very interesting. I wonder what kind of project is contemplated to keep this aircraft in a near airworthiness condition.

Just a thought, wouldn't it be a great idea to have this aircraft returned to its original roots and flying in the colors of her first operator, KLM, when it celebrates its 100 year anniversary in 2019 as the oldest airline still operating under the original name? The year 2014 / e.g. c/n 2014 (pardon the pun) could be a good start . . . . .

Especially knowing that the L-188 fleet left KLM when the airline was about to celebrate its 50th anniversary in 1969.


Best regards,

Starglider
 
factsonly
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:49 am

In fact, Lockheed L-188C(F) Electra G-FIZU operated for two Dutch airlines as the aircraft was also in service with Martinair Holland.

Lockheed L-188C c/n 2014 was flown first on 17 February 1960. The airliner was registered PH-LLG with the KLM NV on 24 February 1960, delivered on 25 February 1960 and christened "Neptunus". On 22 January 1969, registration PH-LLG was cancelled, after the aircraft was sold as N857U to the US freight carrier Universal Airlines. Lockheed L-188C N857U was converted to a freighter and the type was changed into a L-188C(F). Universal Airlines ceased operations in 1972 and the N857U was sold to the former Universal owners Zantop, which family founded Zantop International Airlines. The ex KLM Electra's, including the L-188C(F) N857U, however were sold to Saturn Airways. In December 1976, Trans International Airlines acquired Saturn including their Electra's. When TIA was renamed Transamerica Airlines in May 1979 the N857U was transferred once again. In October 1985, the N857U was transferred to Interstate Airlines. Lockheed L-188C(F) N857U was sold to Sweden and registered SE-IZU with Falcon Cargo on 29 October 1987. On 6 April 1993, the Electra was transferred to Hunting Cargo Airlines and registered first in the UK as G-FIZU. On 20 May 1997, the freighter was transferred to Hunting Cargo Airlines Ireland and registered EI-CHY. On 23 December 1998, the Electra was registered again in the UK as G-FIZU with Atlantic Airlines. Since Atlantic Cargo and Channel Express operated it. In 2005, the Lockheed Electra II was still active as G-FIZU with Atlantic Airlines.


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Photo © HansAir
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Photo © John Heggblom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEHWnhAzvlU

This is a video of a KLM L-188 Electra arriving at Nice Airport.

The aircraft was registered PH-LLG and named Neptunus.


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Photo © Lars Söderström
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Photo © Ralf Manteufel



KLM operated 12x L-188 Electra's overall.


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Photo © John Varndell
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Photo © Lars Söderström



On June 12, 1961: KLM Flight 823 PH-LLM routing AMS-KUL via MUC, FCO, CAI, KHI crashed short of the runway at Cairo killing 20 out of the 36 on board.

http://buchairshop.ch/webshop/Lockheed-L-188-Electra-PH-LLG-KLM/en
 
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cougar15
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting Starglider (Thread starter):
L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG

Maybe one Joe from Buffalo Airways should look at?
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Starglider
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:43 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 4):
Maybe one Joe from Buffalo Airways should look at?

Maybe Joe was not interested in this particular aircraft because of the Hamilton Standard propellers (rounded blade tips) installed on G-FIZU? All the Electra's in the Buffalo Airways fleet have Aeroproducts propellers (straight blade tips).

There are differences between the Hamilton Standard- and Aeroproducts propeller governing systems and synchrophasing controls. So that would have presented him with a spares issue. G-FIZU is most likely the last Electra (in perhaps near airworthy condition) with Hamilton Standard propellers. For spares he would have to refer to the P-3 Orion (or Aurora) which also operate with Hamilton Standard props.
 
zanl188
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:42 pm

Quoting Starglider (Thread starter):
Being the only surviving ex-KLM aircraft, and probably the last Electra with a Hamilton Standard propeller system, Wouldn't it be great if this unique aircraft would some day be displayed in a Dutch museum?


I worked this aircraft on occasion when it was running logair routes with Transamerica and Interstate. Interior is not anything like it was when with KLM.... Cargo doors cut into it, windows plugged, interior ripped out, cargo liner & rollers installed. It would be a challenge to put the pax interior back in...
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Starglider
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:50 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 6):
It would be a challenge to put the pax interior back in...

Great to read that you have actually worked on this aircraft, a very innovative design for its time and too bad they are not built like that anymore.

Sure, it has been converted to a freighter decades ago but at least the airframe is still intact. And I agree, it would be a big challenge to put a pax interior back in. But for starters, re-installing most of the cabin windows and repainting it in the 1960's KLM livery would be feasible. Then . . . put it on display and work on from there . . . . that is what challenges are for.

It will never be as it was originally but this aircraft has a story to tell with over 5 decades of service.
 
Starglider
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 3):
n fact, Lockheed L-188C(F) Electra G-FIZU operated for two Dutch airlines as the aircraft was also in service with Martinair Holland.

KLM leased the aircraft to Martinair Holland for several months in 1968. When returned from the lease it was sold to Universal Airlines in early 1969 (and converted to a freighter).
 
zanl188
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:18 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 7):

Forgot to mention... the original pax doors are gone... Pilots enter thru forward freight door if I recall correctly... Might still be a service door on the right side in the aft...
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YVRLTN
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:47 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 2):
That implies she has been sitting idle for close to 3 years (?). Also the suggestion that she may not be owned by Conair but owned by a Technical College is very interesting. I wonder what kind of project is contemplated to keep this aircraft in a near airworthiness condition.

I dont know, but it is likely Conair will convert it to a fire bomber depending on the future demand. The last airworthy DC6 was sold to Alaska just a couple of months ago and I believe it was operational as a back up only up to the past summer. Conair replaced the 6's with the Electra so while some will no doubt be for spares I think they will maintain a sizeable operational fleet as everything cant be done by the Air tractor's. No doubt we will see in a few months once fire season starts again.

Its possible the college are involved in the conversion program as part of their courses. Most of the frames they have are very derelict, including an ex Conair Tracker, a CP 732 and 8P B1900 (just moved over in the past month).

Quoting Starglider (Reply 2):
The final departure from Bournemouth must have taken place in 201

I took this picture in July 2011, which was indeed very soon after her arrival (FIZU is the frame behind).
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Utah744
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:20 pm

I may have flown her during my 6 month career at Saturn. I'm on vacation in Hawaii now, but I
I'll check my logbook when I get home. On a side note I was sitting in a Saturn Electra in Hill AFB during loading when we felt a solid bump. The Air Force airman was just a little too low with his fork lift and made two identical punctures of the plane's skin below the loading door. We cancelled for the day.
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Starglider
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:48 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 10):
I dont know, but it is likely Conair will convert it to a fire bomber depending on the future demand.

If they do convert it, at least it will be operational again. I assume, as it still has a British registration, this Electra has not flown since it arrived at Abbotsford almost 3 years ago. Hopefully it will not end up in "corrosion corner."

Quoting UTAH744 (Reply 11):
I may have flown her during my 6 month career at Saturn. I'm on vacation in Hawaii now, but I
I'll check my logbook when I get home.

Looking forward to your reply.


Best regards,

Starglider
 
Starglider
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 2:18 pm

Apparently KLM was the only airline to buy the L-188 with Hamilton Standard 54H60 hydromatic propellers, identified by their round tip blades made of dural aluminium.

All other airlines at the time bought the Electra with Aeroproducts A6441FN606 propellers with square tipped blades made from steel.

Aeroproducts claimed a 1.5 to 2 percent efficiency increase with the square tip design. From what I have read, Hamilton Standard in later years, bought the rights from Aeroproducts and manufactured the same A5441FN606 square tipped propellers.

This raises the question why KLM (as the only airline) chose the Hamilton Standard 54H60 prop? And later on most, if not all, P-3 Orions and CP-140 Aurora's were equipped with the Hamilton Standard round tipped props. Was this a case of weight versus aerodynamic efficiency?
 
studedave
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 13):
Apparently KLM was the only airline to buy the L-188 with Hamilton Standard 54H60 hydromatic propellers, identified by their round tip blades made of dural aluminium.

I'm not so sure about that. I swear I saw a pic the other day of the Beatles getting off of an L-188 that had those same props. I couldn't quite tell the airline, but I thought it looked like it may have said 'AA' on the tail. Now that I think about it- the pic I saw was on the news here in Los Angeles. The story was about a gallery in a hotel here in the city. I'll see if I can find it, and post it here for the pros to decide whose bird it was. I know what is normal, that's the only reason I went back for a second look. During my year on Diego Garcia I saw more then a few props from USN P-3s...

I found a link- http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/video...wcases-rare-photos-of-the-beatles/ (go to :49)




StudeDave
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MEA-707
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:51 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 2):
Just a thought, wouldn't it be a great idea to have this aircraft returned to its original roots and flying in the colors of her first operator, KLM, when it celebrates its 100 year anniversary in 2019 as the oldest airline still operating under the original name?

There was not enough interest and money to get the DC-8 ex PH-DCZ back from Manston to Lelystad, an aircraft type of much more importance to KLM then the Electra. So I doubt they would fund returning this aircraft back to the Netherlands while it is wanted in Canada, the costs would also be much higher as well then for the DC-8.
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Starglider
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:44 pm

Quoting studedave (Reply 14):
I'm not so sure about that. I swear I saw a pic the other day of the Beatles getting off of an L-188 that had those same props. I couldn't quite tell the airline, but I thought it looked like it may have said 'AA' on the tail.

Thanks for the reference. I checked the link at :49. The Electra in question,from which The Beatles de-boarded, was one operated by AFA, American Flyers Airline. AFA operated two L-188C's originally ordered by Capital Airlines but the order was cancelled by Capital before delivery when they merged with United Airlines. Capital ordered five L-188C's (msn 1130, and 1133-1136). These five aircraft were subsequently delivered to Braniff (one), PSA (two) and AFA (two). This implies that these five aircraft were also fitted with the Hamilton Standard propellers.

According to a recent list of remaining L-188's, of these five aircraft only msn 1133 still exists. Stored at Red Deer and owned by Airspray with registration C-GJTZ in basic Zantop colors. Checked photo's here on A.net and at some time this aircraft must have been modified with Aeroproducts props if all five Capital aircraft were originally fitted with Hamilton Standard props.



">Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 15):
There was not enough interest and money to get the DC-8 ex PH-DCZ back from Manston to Lelystad, an aircraft type of much more importance to KLM then the Electra. So I doubt they would fund returning this aircraft back to the Netherlands while it is wanted in Canada, the costs would also be much higher as well then for the DC-8.

The difference here is that the DC-8 was not in an airworthy condition and would have been disassembled for transportation by sea and road. It was stored at Manston since 2001 and scrapped last year. The Electra in question may be in a near airworthy condition and with some effort perhaps could be returned to an airworthy condition.

[Edited 2014-02-07 12:47:23] [Edited 2014-02-07 13:17:15]

[Edited 2014-02-07 13:19:53]

[Edited 2014-02-07 13:21:53]
 
Starglider
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:33 pm

On a different note: can anyone identify the operator of this particular L-188? The blurry pictures were taken from a DVD and the tail logo is unfamiliar to me. These shots are from the 1974-1975 period somewhere in the USA. The aircraft was chartered by Rick Wakeman (of keyboard fame) and his band during the 1974-1975 world tour of "Journey To The Centre Of The Earth". Ironically this Electra also had a sticker with these words on the fuselage near the forward passenger door. Not the best of titles for an aircraft to wear . . .  
L-188 - operator unknown.




L-188 with "Journey To The Center Of The Earth" sticker.
 
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zippyjet
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 3):

What routes did KLM's Electras serve? I remember seeing a picture of one in KLM livery at MIA. I thought that pic was here on A-Net? I'm not at my computer so I couldn't post it.
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Viscount724
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 1:31 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 18):
Quoting factsonly (Reply 3):

What routes did KLM's Electras serve? I remember seeing a picture of one in KLM livery at MIA. I thought that pic was here on A-Net? I'm not at my computer so I couldn't post it.

They mainly operated within Europe but in their early period of service they were also used on multi-stop services to Asia and Africa. KLM was the only European customer for the Electra.
 
L-188
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:18 am

Any word on the two ex RV Electras Atlantic had.

I thought Joe had made a bid on the former 78R, they featured him starting number 4 when they where over there in Season 2.

44C looked very rough, but Joe was making comments about it possibly being restorable despite the sorry shape Air Atlantic left it in just because of the rarity of the aircraft these days. But he was right a few years ago they wouldn't have even looked at the aircraft.

Also I got the impression that these aircraft are going to be generally used as air tankers in the fire suppression mission. I know Air Spray has converted a few Electras but my understanding is that they where all pax configured without the big cargo doors (both the Lockeed and aftermarket doors forward and aft). Can the existing mod kits be used on aircraft with that much structure cut out for the cargo bays.

BTW. On the subject of Air Spray. They ended up with 68R after Reeve folded.....did they ever do the conversion of her?

This old Reeve ramp rat would like to know.
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DIJKKIJK
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:48 am

Quoting Starglider (Thread starter):
Being the only surviving ex-KLM aircraft,

Not really . There is also this one


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Photo © Szabo Gabor

Quoting Starglider (Reply 2):
Just a thought, wouldn't it be a great idea to have this aircraft returned to its original roots and flying in the colors of her first operator, KLM, when it celebrates its 100 year anniversary in 2019 as the oldest airline still operating under the original name?.

When a fully airworthy L-749 in original KLM colors cannot take to the air because of Dutch bureaucracy, fat chance you have of doing anything with this Electra, which is not even in Dutch hands anymore.
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Starglider
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:50 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 20):
BTW. On the subject of Air Spray. They ended up with 68R after Reeve folded.....did they ever do the conversion of her?

This old Reeve ramp rat would like to know.

68R completed conversion and is operational with Airspray as tanker 84 (msn 2007, C-GHZI).

44C was sold to Buffalo Joe in 2010 and stored at Red Deer with parts missing (msn 1140, now registered as C-FIJV).

78R was also sold to Buffalo Joe in 2010 and was being converted to tanker at Red Deer in December 2013, it may be operational by now (msn 2010, now registered as C-FIJX). Ref. list below:

http://www.aviation-friends-cologne....lockheed-electra-l188-listing.html

[Edited 2014-02-08 00:52:13]

[Edited 2014-02-08 00:53:12]

[Edited 2014-02-08 00:59:46]
 
Starglider
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Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:58 am

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 21):
Not really . There is also this one

Obviously I meant the last KLM Electra.

But very interesting to see that this ex KLM DC-7C also survives to this day. Apparently this aircraft has been stored at GYR since 1990 according to a photo search here on A.net? Someone must think it has value, preventing it from going to the scrappers?

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 21):
When a fully airworthy L-749 in original KLM colors cannot take to the air because of Dutch bureaucracy, fat chance you have of doing anything with this Electra, which is not even in Dutch hands anymore.

One can see these issues as problems but I rather see them as challenges to overcome  

[Edited 2014-02-08 01:10:14]
 
bennett123
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:36 am

I saw PH-DCZ, (now 9G-MKA) at Manston on 22 June 2013.

It was in pretty poor condition following long storage.

I had not heard of it being scrapped.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:42 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 23):
very interesting to see that this ex KLM DC-7C also survives to this day

Actually, that's quite remarkable! It can't be a completely dry climate as green clumps of some vegetation are growing on the field. Would be great to see a close-up and registry number. A shame more of the '7's didn't survive the axe.


Capitol was the one who approached Lockheed about building a large turbo-prop in the first place, but Lockheed couldn't get anyone else to go along with it, and CA bought the Viscounts instead.
Later on when the L-188 was available they ordered five (to try and compete with the big-boys, AA and EA, and didn't have any money left.) with the Ham-Stan propellers. They were actually cancelled but, came down the line in CA colors, however, they were never in service with CA. A fleet was marketed to UA after the merger however, at that time Patterson of UA was not interested in a Lockheed "anything". BTW those five aircraft had those Ham-Stans removed and the Aeroproducts propellers installed before any of them were delivered in about 1962.. IMO the reason CA and KL decided on the Ham-Stan units was out of familiarity. They just wanted to stick with a supplier they knew, and, no doubt, Ham-Stan offered them a good deal.
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Starglider
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:53 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 25):
BTW those five aircraft had those Ham-Stans removed and the Aeroproducts propellers installed before any of them were delivered in about 1962..

Thanks for the background info regarding the five Capital aircraft. If all five had been converted to Aeroproducts propellers before delivery to the customers (Braniff, PSA and AFA) then most likely only the 12 KLM aircraft continued to operate with the Ham-Stan props of which ex KLM PH-LLG (G-FIZU) is the sole survivor.

However, there is one contradiction regarding at least one of the aircraft delivered to AFA (msn 1134 or 1136). It was photographed in 1964 with The Beatles dissembarking the aircraft. It had Ham-Stan props then but perhaps modified at a later date:

1964: The Beatles dissembarking an AFA L-188C Electra.


Picture taken from the link in reply 14, thanks go to StudeDave for sharing that link.

[Edited 2014-02-08 07:04:52]
 
Kuja
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 24):

I saw PH-DCZ, (now 9G-MKA) at Manston on 22 June 2013.

It was in pretty poor condition following long storage.

I had not heard of it being scrapped.


A photo of its final moments: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=470631346380309

Sad indeed.  
 
L-188
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:03 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 22):
44C was sold to Buffalo Joe in 2010 and stored at Red Deer with parts missing (msn 1140, now registered as C-FIJV).

Well it is good to hear it is on the right side of the pond. Is it safe to assume they put enough of her together to ferry it over....if so I hope that they do convert her over.

I am actually still a bit ticked about the condition the Lymies let her fall into.

One of those three aircraft 44C, 78R and 68R I took my first flight on when I was six. And when I left Reeve in 1997 to go to school 78R was my Freedom Bird...yup I am attached.
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ImperialEagle
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:29 am

Quoting Starglider (Reply 26):
It was photographed in 1964

Well I did say "about"!

Quoting Starglider (Reply 26):
about 1962.

By then Lockheed wasn't knocking the dust off of anything until they saw the cash. I think they must have made arrangements to do the conversions as they sold them. I thought the last one converted was in 1963. After the LEAP program I was surprised KL didn't just throw in the towel and switch to Aeroproducts. It must have been more expensive to maintain a one-off propeller than to have commonality with all the other 188 operators---although---there wasn't anyone else in Europe using the 188's at that time anyway.
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Starglider
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:46 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 29):
I thought the last one converted was in 1963. After the LEAP program I was surprised KL didn't just throw in the towel and switch to Aeroproducts. It must have been more expensive to maintain a one-off propeller than to have commonality with all the other 188 operators---although---there wasn't anyone else in Europe using the 188's at that time anyway.

That may have been the reason, that KLM at the time was the only L-188 operator in Europe. Apparently all the airlines that operated the ex KLM L-188's never bothered to change to the Aeroproducts props either.

By the way, one of the AFA L-188's (cn 1135) retained the Ham-Stan props as well until it was scrapped in 1996:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ameri...d=38b5bb1e2f44c74793f3cdea11a78905

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ports...d=9d552de41a3c8b133fde48e001ea4ac8

Referring to my post (reply 17) regarding the unknown tail logo on that L-188, I did some digging in the data base and found a similar logo on an ex North West aircraft (N128US, msn 1111) operated by Air Holiday but it was not the same aircraft shown in reply 17 because it was sold to Air Florida before that Wakeman tour took place (in Sept. 1974):

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-H...d=8f22e06e01cad431cc4026494ef2452b

However, I found out that Air Holiday also operated another L-188 from May thru September 1974: N301FA, msn 1020, ex Eastern Airlines N5514. Unfortunately no photographs available in the Air Holiday livery but I am quite sure that this was the aircraft shown in my reply 17.
 
studedave
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:53 am

Quoting Starglider (Reply 22):
Ref. list below:
http://www.aviation-friends-cologne.....html

Is this a list of ALL known survivors, or are there other airframes elsewhere in the World not on the list?

Quoting Starglider (Reply 26):
thanks go to StudeDave for sharing that link.

No worries- glad I could help!!!



StudeDave
Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
 
Viscount724
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:22 am

Quoting Starglider (Reply 26):
However, there is one contradiction regarding at least one of the aircraft delivered to AFA (msn 1134 or 1136). It was photographed in 1964 with The Beatles dissembarking the aircraft. It had Ham-Stan props then but perhaps modified at a later date:

Another photo of an AFA L-188 Beatles charter with prop close-up.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1590546.1390608597!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_1200/new-york-city-1964.jpg
 
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kl5147
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:21 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 15):
Quoting Starglider (Reply 2):
Just a thought, wouldn't it be a great idea to have this aircraft returned to its original roots and flying in the colors of her first operator, KLM, when it celebrates its 100 year anniversary in 2019 as the oldest airline still operating under the original name?

There was not enough interest and money to get the DC-8 ex PH-DCZ back from Manston to Lelystad, an aircraft type of much more importance to KLM then the Electra. So I doubt they would fund returning this aircraft back to the Netherlands while it is wanted in Canada, the costs would also be much higher as well then for the DC-8.

Maybe DC-9-15 45718 - 17 (former PH-DNA) might be a candidate now
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Starglider
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:48 pm

Why not both? For a period between 1966 and 1968 PH-LLG and PH-DNA were both in service with KLM on the European routes.

DC-9-15, PH-DNA, brings back memories, I flew on it as a pax from Amsterdam to Munich in the summer of 1974.

Apparently it is still in service with USA Jet Airlines . . . with a VIP interior.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:02 pm

Quoting KL5147 (Reply 33):
Maybe DC-9-15 45718 - 17 (former PH-DNA) might be a candidate now

Why not? It would make sense. After the B-307 disaster KL was certainly close to Douglas for a long time.

BTW I think it is quite remarkable that a 188 with Ham-Stan props would still be around in 1972! I would think the parts would be right pricey by then.
Wasn't it interesting that so many of the 188's original customers were glad to ditch their 188's and used the excuse of parts availability and expense of overhaul for the Aeroproducts props! Between all the 188's, Orions, 580's, and C-130's there were PLENTY of parts. WTF?

We all knew the real reason was because of the magic word "jet"!  
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
petertenthije
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:10 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 34):
Why not both?

Let's be realistic here. Just two years ago the Aviodrome was closed for bankruptcy and there was genuine fear that the collection would be sold and scathered around the world. Buying new large exhibits might not be prudent now.

Let them first run a few years with steady cash-flow and profit before venturing on new large projects. Hell, the current projects are already running slow. When was the last time the Uiver took to the sky, or the Constellation or the Friendship?
Attamottamotta!
 
Utah744
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:42 pm

From Starglider reply 12. Looking forward to your reply.

Got real busy after vacation but dusted off the long books and I indeed did fly her. April 9, 1973. NAS Alameda to Wright-Patterson AFB to NAS Norfolk, VA. 7.4 hours on a US Navy Quitktrans contract. Then we repositioned the plane to Ypsilanti, Michigan which was a Saturn hub in support of the automobile manufacturing industry in Detroit. That leg was operated under Part 91 (non-commercial) and that was 1.8 hours. That was the only time I flew her. If flew both Ham-Standard and Aero props on the Electras. Ham-Standards on Navy P-3s and Aero props on CV-580s. I was always told the Ham-Standards were more efficient and they were certainly quieter. The Aero props had a simpler control system and in all my flying I only had 1 prop shut down with them. On the other hand many precautionary shut down with the HS. After I was let go from Saturn on 1 July 1973 I flew DH-114 Herons with a commuter in Idaho then DHii4 Captain in KSLO. From there I was hired by North Central Airlines in 1975, merged into Republic and then again into Northwest Airlines. I retired after 31 years with NWA & predecessors on the B744.
You are never too old to learn something stupid
 
Starglider
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:44 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 35):
We all knew the real reason was because of the magic word "jet"!

And perhaps the time is approaching, due to rising fuel prices, that the magic word for airlines will be "prop-jet" again. If fuel prices continue to rise this will likely result in a requirement for a modern prop-jet in the L-188 category . . . . at least for distances between 300 to 1500 miles or so.



Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 15):
There was not enough interest and money to get the DC-8 ex PH-DCZ back from Manston to Lelystad, an aircraft type of much more importance to KLM then the Electra.

The Electra was the favorite aircraft at the time for both flight crew and passengers when operated by KLM. For the crew because of its spacious flight deck (with separate airconditioning system) and for the passengers because of the wide, comfortable and (relatively) quiet cabin compared to other types from that era. KLM flew the Electra on the European, Middle East and African routes but also all the way to Asia. A typical route to Asia was Amsterdam - Munich - Rome - Cairo - Karachi - Kuala Lumpur.
 
Starglider
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:41 pm

Quoting UTAH744 (Reply 37):
I was always told the Ham-Standards were more efficient and they were certainly quieter. The Aero props had a simpler control system and in all my flying I only had 1 prop shut down with them. On the other hand many precautionary shut down with the HS.

Thanks for sharing your experience and that you actually did fly her.

Your experience operating subject Electra (and P-3s) with Ham-Standard props reminds me of an incident that occurred on this specific aircraft (G-FIZU) in 2007 when the Ham-Standard synchrophaser unit hit a snag. This incident is well documented in AAIB Bulletin: 5/2008 below which also confirms (on page 5) that this aircraft (G-FIZU) was the only remaining L-188 with such a Ham-Standard synchrophaser unit at the time of the incident:

http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/687.pdf

A very interesting read.
 
L-188
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:43 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 35):
Wasn't it interesting that so many of the 188's original customers were glad to ditch their 188's and used the excuse of parts availability and expense of overhaul for the Aeroproducts props! Between all the 188's, Orions, 580's, and C-130's there were PLENTY of parts. WTF?

Actually, the Herk Props are different still.

But still I would have placed money in this day and age that the HS props would be easier to source parts from considering all the Navy P-3's that where running them.

L-188 and CV-580s are about the only two birds I can think of that used those Aeroproducts blades.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
factsonly
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:59 am

Quoting Starglider (Reply 38):
The Electra was the favorite aircraft at the time for both flight crew and passengers when operated by KLM. For the crew because of its spacious flight deck (with separate airconditioning system) and for the passengers because of the wide, comfortable and (relatively) quiet cabin compared to other types from that era.

In addition to these great features, the Electra was KLM's fastest airliner on short-haul routes.

In the 1960's the KLM Electra operated AMS-LHR in just 40 minutes and the scheduled flight time between the two airports was 45min. to max. 50 min. in the published timetables. This was largely due to the Electra's fantastic climb and descent performance, with the ability to lower air speed using the propeller torque. The Electra was an all-time favourite.

The KLM DC9s which replaced the Electra, had difficulty making AMS-LHR in the same flight time and crews often found they needed longer climb-out and descent profiles, thus making for longer air travel times.

Compare that to today's AMS-LHR published flight times of 1h. 25min for B737s and airway congestion........ .....and.... Yes, people call that progress!!!!
 
Starglider
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:44 am

Quoting studedave (Reply 31):
Is this a list of ALL known survivors, or are there other airframes elsewhere in the World not on the list?

Not sure if that list is complete. It could be cross-checked against this list (however, no guarantee this list is up-to-date either):

http://www.rzjets.net/aircraft/?page=1&typeid=149





Quoting factsonly (Reply 41):
In addition to these great features, the Electra was KLM's fastest airliner on short-haul routes.

  
 
Viscount724
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:51 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 41):
Compare that to today's AMS-LHR published flight times of 1h. 25min for B737s and airway congestion........ .....and.... Yes, people call that progress!!!!

That's true on virtually all routes that had nonstop service 50 years ago. I doubt you'll find many block times today that are faster. The only time savings over the last half-century (apart from Concorde) are from nonstop service on longhaul routes that couldn't previously be operated nonstop.
 
Starglider
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:09 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 41):
In the 1960's the KLM Electra operated AMS-LHR in just 40 minutes and the scheduled flight time between the two airports was 45min. to max. 50 min. in the published timetables.
Quoting factsonly (Reply 41):
The KLM DC9s which replaced the Electra, had difficulty making AMS-LHR in the same flight time and crews often found they needed longer climb-out and descent profiles, thus making for longer air travel times.

Compare that to today's AMS-LHR published flight times of 1h. 25min for B737s

And then take into account that the Electra with approximately 30 minutes shorter block-times operating AMS-LHR also burned about 30% less fuel per hour than a DC-9 (approximately 15% less fuel per hour than a 737NG).

Fuel prices in the '60s were low but with fuel prices today and rising in the foreseeable future it certainly makes a difference.
 
Starglider
Topic Author
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:29 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 1):
Heres a photo I took two weeks ago, looks in pretty good condition and still has all her props

I have noticed that this aircraft as shown in the picture of reply 1 is still on the British register after sitting idle for almost 3 years. All other L-188s sold to Canadian operators have a Canadian registration.

Could this be due to certification issues with the Canadian D.O.T? Perhaps linked to the different configuration inherent to G-FIZU with a propeller system, which (as far as I can trace) is the sole remaining Electra with Hamilton-Standard props.



Best Regards,

Starglider
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:26 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 38):
a modern prop-jet in the L-188 category

It will be a large twin----with none of the old charm unfortunately.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 41):
The KLM DC9s which replaced the Electra, had difficulty making AMS-LHR in the same flight time and crews often found they needed longer climb-out and descent profiles, thus making for longer air travel times.
Quoting Starglider (Reply 44):
And then take into account that the Electra with approximately 30 minutes shorter block-times operating AMS-LHR also burned about 30% less fuel per hour than a DC-9 (approximately 15% less fuel per hour than a 737NG).

Yes. EA discovered the same thing on their "Shuttle" The 188's were faster BUT the -9's were JETS!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
Viscount724
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:02 am

Quoting Starglider (Reply 45):
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 1):
Heres a photo I took two weeks ago, looks in pretty good condition and still has all her props

I have noticed that this aircraft as shown in the picture of reply 1 is still on the British register after sitting idle for almost 3 years. All other L-188s sold to Canadian operators have a Canadian registration.

Or maybe it was only acquired for parts so there's no need to register it in Canada, and the previous owner appears not to have got around to cancelling its British registration.
 
Starglider
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:48 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 46):
It will be a large twin----with none of the old charm unfortunately.

Indeed, if such a design is revived, it would most likely become a twin if designed from scratch. However, one of the L-188's major design features for speed and efficiency was a short stubby wing designed for four engines, generating additional lift due to the fact that 80 percent of the wing area was positively affected by the propeller airflow. The old charm could still be retained with this wing, four state-of the-art turbo-prop engines and the same wide fuselage which current turbo-props (ATRs and Dash 8s) lack.

Who knows, if oil prices continue to rise Lockheed Martin might dust off its Orion 21 design, which lost out against the Boeing P-8 Poseidon and convert it to a civilian project one day. That would bring the design full circle.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 47):
Or maybe it was only acquired for parts so there's no need to register it in Canada, and the previous owner appears not to have got around to cancelling its British registration.

Another L-188 from the same previous owner and sold to Conair is on the Canadian register and has been parted out (C-GYCG which previously was registered as G-FIJR).
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Current Status Of L-188 G-FIZU, C/n 2014 - Ex KLM PH-LLG?

Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:57 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 48):
Lockheed Martin might dust off its Orion 21 design, which lost out against the Boeing P-8 Poseidon and convert it to a civilian project one day. That would bring the design full circle.

Wouldn't that be interesting?!

Quoting Starglider (Reply 48):
a short stubby wing designed for four engines, generating additional lift due to the fact that 80 percent of the wing area was positively affected by the propeller airflow. The old charm could still be retained with this wing, four state-of the-art turbo-prop engines and the same wide fuselage which current turbo-props (ATRs and Dash 8s) lack.

Well, maybe a little larger overall area with the same shape. The though of it is pretty cool!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"

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