CGMAI
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What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:42 am

I was wondering what ever happened to California Pacific Airlines? They got there first E-170 (or was it an E-175?) over a year ago and they have yet to start flights? Will they ever fly?
If its not built by Airbus it must not be good ;-)
 
sunking737
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:22 pm

They have basically thrown in the towel. Their plane has been returned to leasing company, and is sitting in the desert. Every time they submitted paper work to get their AOC, the FAA rejected it or said "Due to Government shut down we don't have the staff to complete your review" Peoplexpress is also running into the same issue.
Just an MSPAVGEEK
 
CGMAI
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:46 pm

Ah yes, as usual the Government killed an airline...nothing new under the sun. Its shame because the idea sounded good and the livery was nice.
If its not built by Airbus it must not be good ;-)
 
PSAjet17
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting CGMAI (Reply 2):
Ah yes, as usual the Government killed an airline

Not totally true. Unfortunately, Ted Vallas relied too heavily on "friends" to make up the team. While they may have had some experience in the airline industry, many were not qualified on E-170 operations or did not know enough to properly complete the necessary paperwork for certification. That is what caused the rejection by the FAA.
 
commavia
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:02 pm

Quoting CGMAI (Thread starter):
what ever happened to California Pacific Airlines?

Reality (a.k.a., the same thing that's about to happen to "People Express" if it ever "gets off the ground.").

Quoting CGMAI (Reply 2):
Ah yes, as usual the Government killed an airline...nothing new under the sun. Its shame because the idea sounded good and the livery was nice.

The U.S. government didn't "kill" California Pacific. Convenient (and creative) excuse, but ridiculous. What killed California Pacific, ultimately, was the same thing that killed Legend, Ozark II/Great Plains, SkyBus, etc. before it - namely, a business plan that simply was not viable. Flying a 70-seat regional jet with 24 First Class seats - no matter how nice the livery - from Carlsbad, CA is just ridiculous. That is not a sustainable or scalable business model, just as neither was flying 30-year-old DC9s with 56 seats from Love Field, or flying Do328s from OKC-ABQ or BLV-IAD, or flying jam-packed A320s between outlying airports with no connectivity, or will be flying 737s from a market as small as ORF. Some like to equivocate and essentially ask, "how do we know? these ideas don't sound any crazier than JetBlue did when it started" - but that's just flat out wrong. They sound a lot crazier.

The airline industry is notoriously difficult to enter and grow in. As Bob Crandall once said of the post-deregulation era - "A lot of people came into the airline business after deregulation ... most of them promptly exited, minus their money." The very, very few exceptions of airlines that could even be considered moderate, let alone thriving, success stories post-deregulation all had business plans built on reality. The single most successful airline startup I can think of in the last 40 years was JetBlue, which has a business model that fundamentally makes sense. California Pacific is not now, nor was it ever, a JetBlue in the making. That's just reality.
 
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atcsundevil
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:17 pm

FAA funding issues didn't help, but that's like blaming the referees for losing a game. CP Air had a lot of their own issues and generally failed to meet a multitude of deadlines. They moved very slowly throughout the entire process which was a drain on their funds, and once they took up the lease on the E175 at something like $200,000/month while continuing to move slowly in the process (and yes, the sequester and shutdown didn't help matters), it pretty much did them in.

Their biggest issue though appeared to be their lack of investment capital, which is one reason it took so long for them to pass the FAA's financial fitness review. If they had sufficient investments like B6 or others did when they started up, then the delay from the FAA wouldn't have had the impact it ultimately had because they would have hard the cash to wait it out. If that delay effectively put them out of business, then I'm not convinced they would have survived their first two years of operations.

It's a shame, because they had completed so much of the certification process, only to fall short near the end. Regardless of how well their business model may have worked or not worked, it's unfortunate that they didn't even have a chance to try. It ultimately comes down to CP having horrible timing -- beginning the process while the industry was still in recovery-mode from the recession and having to basically wait for things to improve before advancing in the start up process, generally dragging things out for as long as they did, and then requiring fairly urgent reviews due to lack of cash from the FAA while they were caught in the middle of a pissing match in DC.
 
HPRamper
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:41 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
The U.S. government didn't "kill" California Pacific. Convenient (and creative) excuse, but ridiculous. What killed California Pacific, ultimately, was the same thing that killed Legend, Ozark II/Great Plains, SkyBus, etc. before it - namely, a business plan that simply was not viable. Flying a 70-seat regional jet with 24 First Class seats - no matter how nice the livery - from Carlsbad, CA is just ridiculous.

To be fair, that may have killed it, had it ever gotten off the ground...but it never did, so we can't realistically say that's the reason the airline failed.
 
cedarjet
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:23 pm

It remains the dumbest, most awkward, longest, most redundant name for an airline in history (with the possible exception of Taiwan's "U-Land Airlines" - don't mind if I do). I think we all know where California is. It sounds like the name of a disaster airline in a TV movie. What were they thinking.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Q
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:48 pm

Why don't they move to San Cabos, Mexico based to start business and flying to Carlsbad then spreading it out routes than in USA based? FAA can't do anything about in Mexico start business and flying. LOL! Why not?

Q

[Edited 2014-02-15 09:27:34]
 
n471wn
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:25 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 4):
ultimately, was the same thing that killed Legend

Actually Legend did have a good business model---what killed it was American went after it at DAL and ran it into the ground with undercut fares and frequent flyer perks---then when it went out of business they raised fares---same technique used by Rockefeller as a robber baron.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:37 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 7):
It remains the dumbest, most awkward, longest, most redundant name for an airline in history (with the possible exception of Taiwan's "U-Land Airlines" - don't mind if I do). I think we all know where California is. It sounds like the name of a disaster airline in a TV movie. What were they thinking.

Huh?

California Pacific
Western Pacific
Southern Pacific
Northern Pacific

They are all geographic names. And very American sounding ones for transportation companies.

It might have also shortened it to "CalPac" or "CPA".

-Dave
-Dave
 
PSAjet17
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
It might have also shortened it to "CalPac" or "CPA".

I believe the airline's proper name is Carlsbad-Palomar Airlines dba California Pacific Airlines (CPAir)
 
flyenvi
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:36 pm

I heard that they "borrowed" manuals to copy and paste from that belonged to a 135 scenic flight outfit from Hawaii. Not sure if that's totally true though.

California Pacific was dead from the start as most would agree. Uncertain business plan, wrong choice of aircraft, inexperienced people, and ultimately a disenfranchised community that threw a lot of money at them to get going.
 
cedarjet
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:42 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
Western Pacific
Southern Pacific
Northern Pacific

I still say it was a stupid name - the other three you list were three syllables shorter (cal-i-forn-i-a vs south-ern, north-ern etc) very short-lived and also had to be shortened to be useable - "Westpac" etc. Nor were any of them successful brands - I have never even heard of Southern Pacific.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 10):
It might have also shortened it to "CalPac" or "CPA"

The fact that it has to be shortened to be functional shows these guys didn't know branding. "United", "Delta", "jetBlue" - easy to use, easy to remember, easy to spell. Most important - easy to Google.

A good telltale of how these guys didn't know what they were doing. California Pacific was never going to get off the ground.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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Polot
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:02 am

Quoting Q (Reply 8):
Why don't they move to San Cabos, Mexico based to start business and flying to Carlsbad then spreading it out routes than in USA based? FAA can't do anything about in Mexico start business and flying. LOL! Why not?

Because they wanted to fly domestic routes out of CLD, not to Mexico?
 
Q
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:15 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 14):

Based in Mexico then fly to Carlsbad to fly USA routes. That's simple. I mentioned flying to Carlsbad then spreading it out routes.

Q
 
point2point
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:22 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 13):
California Pacific was never going to get off the ground.

Maybe this new Cal-Pac (however the name) needed to stay inside of the State of California, maybe like this new Florida Express Jet, and gotten off the ground with easier state regulations than going interstate with both numerous fed and state regulations? I don't know quite yet what to make of this Florida Express Jet, but if staying inside of the State of Florida allows them to get ops off the ground, then maybe Cal-Pac's initial scheduling needed to have omitted any stations outside of the State of California, which I think if I remember were PHX and LAS (and I think that SJD was to be added later on anyways). So, having it's starting routes to be CLD-OAK, CLD-SJC and CLD-SMF wouldn't have been so bad to get them off the ground. I'm kind of now surprised that maybe the planners of Cal-Pac did not consider this, unless they have and maybe California has more ominous regulations that Florida or the feds.......

Anyways, as usual, just my   

 
 
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Polot
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:30 am

Quoting Q (Reply 15):
Based in Mexico then fly to Carlsbad to fly USA routes. That's simple. I mentioned flying to Carlsbad then spreading it out routes.

??? A Mexican airline can not fly Carlsbad-US routes while carrying local passengers. Cabotage is against the law.
 
steex
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:37 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 17):
??? A Mexican airline can not fly Carlsbad-US routes while carrying local passengers. Cabotage is against the law.

In addition, American owners don't have free reign to just do whatever they like in Mexico. There would be regulatory hurdles to clear there before they could take to the skies as well, not the least of which would be a need to find enough Mexican investors to satisfy foreign ownership requirements.
 
ridgid727
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:39 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 16):
Maybe this new Cal-Pac (however the name) needed to stay inside of the State of California, maybe like this new Florida Express Jet, and gotten off the ground with easier state regulations than going interstate with both numerous fed and state regulations? I don't know quite yet what to make of this Florida Express Jet, but if staying inside of the State of Florida allows them to get ops off the ground, then maybe Cal-Pac's initial scheduling needed to have omitted any stations outside of the State of California, which I think if I remember were PHX and LAS (and I think that SJD was to be added later on anyways). So, having it's starting routes to be CLD-OAK, CLD-SJC and CLD-SMF wouldn't have been so bad to get them off the ground. I'm kind of now surprised that maybe the planners of Cal-Pac did not consider this, unless they have and maybe California has more ominous regulations that Florida or the feds.......

Anyways, as usual, just my

your take is interesting. I do believe that when Timmoner and Griffin started Air Florida, it was an "intra-state" carrier only and operated wholly within the confines of Florida.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:44 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 13):
I have never even heard of Southern Pacific.

SP was a US railroad. I think they fuinaaly became a part of Burlington Northern-Santa Fe. There is a short name......
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
as739x
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:59 am

Quoting Q (Reply 8):

Baja California Airlines. I like it!!
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
commavia
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:11 am

Quoting N471WN (Reply 9):
Actually Legend did have a good business model

No it didn't. It did not take a rocket scientist to figure out that, even in 2000, configuring 30-year-old, 100-seat DC9s with 56 First Class seats and charging Coach prices was not a viable business model. In some ways, this actually parallels with the detachment from reality evident in California Pacific's business model: uneconomic use of a unique aircraft from a unique airport. In both cases, the outcome were or would have been the same.

Quoting N471WN (Reply 9):
what killed it was American went after it at DAL and ran it into the ground with undercut fares and frequent flyer perks

a.k.a. - American competed. AA just helped along the inevitable, and had AA not acted completely within its rights as a competitor in an open marketplace, 9/11 certainly would have killed Legend.
 
steex
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:35 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 20):
SP was a US railroad. I think they fuinaaly became a part of Burlington Northern-Santa Fe. There is a short name......

Southern Pacific is now part of Union Pacific, having previously been purchased by Denver & Rio Grande Western (which kept the more widely recognized SP name). Also, Burlington Northern Santa Fe officially shortened its name to BNSF Railway.
 
catiii
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:41 am

Quoting flyenvi (Reply 12):

So? Isn't that why most airlines buy another AOC, for the approved manuals? Seems like nothing new.
 
flyenvi
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:36 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 24):

Yes, but for a prospective part 121 airline to copy a part 135 carrier's manuals isn't going to fly with the FAA. Totally different operation and requirements.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:18 am

Quoting steex (Reply 23):
Southern Pacific is now part of Union Pacific, having previously been purchased by Denver & Rio Grande Western (which kept the more widely recognized SP name). Also, Burlington Northern Santa Fe officially shortened its name to BNSF Railway.
OK thanks for the clarification. I knew there was a lot of RR consolidation, unlike the current airline industry lol.

Off topic, in 1981 there was someone trying to start "Idaho Pacific Airlines". They were to fly F27s GEG-BOI-SLC and COE-BOI-IDA and such. Never got any further than a story in the newspaper. Funny to see Idaho and Pacific in same name, even with part of Idaho in Pacific Time Zone.

[Edited 2014-02-16 00:22:23]
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
bjorn14
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:44 am

WN started out as a TX intrastate carrier. It was relatively easy to get an AOC and they didn't have to follow all the CAB rules. Unfortunately, TX doesn't issue AOCs any more they let the Feds handle it.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:06 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 20):
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 13):
I have never even heard of Southern Pacific.

SP was a US railroad. I think they fuinaaly became a part of Burlington Northern-Santa Fe. There is a short name......

Southern Pacific was one of the biggest railroads in the US for many years. One of their predecessors (Central Pacific) was part of the first transcontinental. SP basically owned California, and went to Portland, Ogden Utah, Tucumcari, New Mexico and New Orleans. One of their subsidiaries made it to East St. Louis, Ill and Memphis.

The SP merged into the Union Pacific on 9/11/1996.

That's like saying you've never heard of Pan Am.

BNSF is made up of the former Santa Fe, Burlington, Frisco, Northern Pacific, Great Northern and Spokane Portland and Seattle railroads.
 
PSAjet17
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:09 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 27):
WN started out as a TX intrastate carrier. It was relatively easy to get an AOC and they didn't have to follow all the CAB rules

I don't believe the "States" ever issued an AOC, this has always been part of the FAA (and their predecessors). Before the 1978 Deregulations Act, airlines that were considered intra-state (like PSA-Pacific Southwest Airlines, Air California and Southwest) had there routes and fares approved by a Public Utilities Commission in their home state. Other carriers that were interstate had routes and fares approved by the Civil Aeronautics Board.
 
bjorn14
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RE: What Ever Happened To California Pacific?

Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:06 pm

I think you can read about it Peanuts!. I was speaking with TX CAB (mid 80s) and claimed they did issue AOC. He even told me a story one time during an onsite inspection they looked at this tiny fly school their books showed they had a value of $10mm. He said place looked like it couldn't support the single c172 they did have. Turns out they valued their AOC @ $10mm. TAB then put a value on it of $50K.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein

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