SA7700
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New Frontier Part 45

Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:09 pm

Due to the previous thread becoming quite long and in some cases slow to load for some users, it was locked down for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in this ongoing thread.

Part 44 can be found here:

New Frontier Part 44 (by iowaman Dec 23 2013 in Civil Aviation)


Regards,

SA7700
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point2point
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:25 pm

Part 45 so soon already?

 
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:11 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
Part 45 so soon already?

Its because we've been talking a bit too much about TTN in the general thread. With 7 threads (8 if you count the orginal Frontier Announces TTN thread from August 2012), its the God of regional airport destinations. All bow down to the mighty TTN  

[Edited 2014-03-01 14:15:17]
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point2point
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:03 am

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 2):
All bow down to the mighty TTN

I thought that we had to bow because it's to the Almighty DEN......

  

I am glad though that TTN got on line for F9.

F9 from the West had to control the whole of the U.S. from DEN, at least now it has TTN to help it along to control some of the East, eh? This can finally mean that with TTN now online F9 doesn't have to be completely DEN-centric.

And I think that ILG can help some along as well, if only from the front it didn't look like the laundromat in the strip mall that I use sometimes when I want to do some large pieces of laundry.....

  

I'm having fun here, huh?

 
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:44 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 3):
And I think that ILG can help some along as well, if only from the front it didn't look like the laundromat in the strip mall that I use sometimes when I want to do some large pieces of laundry.....

Also in the running for airport most likely to be mistaken for a strip mall
Northeast Florida Regional Airport (St Augustine/Jacksonville: UST)



(From the Skybus days)
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point2point
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:56 am

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 4):

Hey.... great pic.... and you have me laughing some more now.....

  

 
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:49 am

News of Old Friends:

Sadly, the news from Great Lakes is not good. They say the new rules for pilots have hit 'em hard and they've had to cancel routes because they don't have enough pilots.

Cranky Flier explains it all here:

http://crankyflier.com/2014/02/03/gr...mall-cities-blames-pilot-shortage/

And there's a map showing all the routes that have been cut. It isn't pretty, but then these things never are. The numbers given for how much the pilots at the airline get paid are fairly disturbing.

On a somewhat happier note, Frontier's old chum Jeff Potter is back in the airline business. He's taken over as CEO of Surf Air:

http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/n...air-ceo-eyerly-resigns-former.html

"Surf Air CEO Eyerly resigns; Former Frontier Airlines CEO to take role

If you haven't heard of Surf Air, you;re probably not alone. It's a club which offers private jet service. Don't ask me what I think of the model, because I don't entirely understand it, but it may appeal to the rich.

But it's good to see Jeff Potter doing the thing he loves again. I hope it works out.

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point2point
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:54 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
And there's a map showing all the routes that have been cut.

It looks as though F9 isn't going to be the only DEN-centric scheduled commercial airline anymore.......

 
 
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:11 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 7):
t looks as though F9 isn't going to be the only DEN-centric scheduled commercial airline anymore.......

It's been that way for years. Great Lakes keeps trying to break out and then keeps retrenching - to DEN.

Here's the map on their website, without Cranky's amendments:

http://www.greatlakesav.com/route_map/Docs/route_map.pdf

Totally DEN-centric.  

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Jerseyguy
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:13 am

I don't mean to be uncaring but alot of these cities don't need EAS.

Devils lake: 1 1/2 hours to Grand Forks
Jamestown: 1 1/2 hours to Fargo or Bismark
Ft. Dodge: 1 1/2 hours to Des Moines or Waterloo
Mason City 1 1/2 hours to Waterloo or 2 to MSP
Ironwood: 2 hours to Duluth
Thief River Falls 1 hour to Grand Forks

Unless it takes 3 hours or more to get to an airport and there is a decent population in the area then they don't need EAS.
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OzarkD9S
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:57 am

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 9):


Devils lake: 1 1/2 hours to Grand Forks
Jamestown: 1 1/2 hours to Fargo or Bismark
Ft. Dodge: 1 1/2 hours to Des Moines or Waterloo
Mason City 1 1/2 hours to Waterloo or 2 to MSP
Ironwood: 2 hours to Duluth
Thief River Falls 1 hour to Grand Forks

Unless it takes 3 hours or more to get to an airport and there is a decent population in the area then they don't need EAS.

Which it may well take during the winter months. All those cities mentioned are in the snow-belt. Maybe seasonal EAS?  
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GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:20 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
But it's good to see Jeff Potter doing the thing he loves again. I hope it works out.

Boys and their Toys.
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Jerseyguy
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 10):
Which it may well take during the winter months. All those cities mentioned are in the snow-belt. Maybe seasonal EAS?

If they don't like the weather perhaps its time they get out of (Ft) Dodge (pun intended). But yes, perhaps seasonal EAS.

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 4):
Also in the running for airport most likely to be mistaken for a strip mall
Northeast Florida Regional Airport (St Augustine/Jacksonville: UST)

What really gives it its potental as a winner is that its the only airport in the US with a Dollar General on property.  Big grin

[Edited 2014-03-02 10:57:12]
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GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:02 am

Quoting Jerseyguy (Reply 12):
If they don't like the weather perhaps its time they get out of (Ft) Dodge (pun intended). But yes, perhaps seasonal EAS.

For the longest time I was under the impression Fort Dodge was a aviation NAVAID and not a city. I've heard Fort Dodge routing being requested most time by UA flight decks flying westward out of Chicago to SEA on UA Channel 9.
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GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:10 pm

Any ideas why F9 flight # 726 an A320 diverted to MDT today enroute to DCA from DEN. Weather perhaps. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/FFT726
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:19 pm

MEM has begun and, originally announced as 4 weekly, it is already going to daily in June:

http://www.memphisflyer.com/NewsBlog...mes-first-frontier-airlines-flight

"Memphis Airport Welcomes First Frontier Airlines Flight

Frontier originally announced they'd start with flights four days a week leaving from the Memphis airport, but reception has been so good, they've already announced plans to expand that service to seven days a week."


I'm not big on Memphis, although there is - or was - a great cafeteria there, but hey, if it makes money.....  

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Frontier14
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
MEM has begun and, originally announced as 4 weekly, it is already going to daily in June:

Yes, this is good to hear and hopefully will become profitable for F9. It is interesting to note on another thread there was reference to US/AA announcing the start up of PHL - MEM. I am beginining to suspect that the success of F9 at TTN is now making US/AA pay more attention to what F9 adds from that sector of the country.

I can confirm that the flight loads are running very good if my round trip DEN - PHX this week was any indication. Left DEN on an 8:05am Saturday dep with all paying pax as gate attendant announced that there was no standby space. On my return late Wednesday night (320) all but five seats were filled. First time F9 flyer sitting next to me said she chose F9 because her cost for the trip was less than SW even with the bag fee.  

We know some of the red-eyes that will be going out of DEN this summer, but are all of them out there yet? Things are looking up for F9.

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GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:23 pm

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 16):
on another thread there was reference to US/AA announcing the start up of PHL - MEM. I am beginining to suspect that the success of F9 at TTN is now making US/AA pay more attention to what F9 adds from that sector of the country.

For clarity F9 new MEM service is DEN-MEM-DEN correct. MEM is not yet offered f rom TTN or ILG?    http://www.flyfrontier.com/plan-book/routes-schedules/route-map

It appears the new management team got the MEM part correct just not to MCO.
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Jerseyguy
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:34 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 17):
For clarity F9 new MEM service is DEN-MEM-DEN correct. MEM is not yet offered f rom TTN or ILG?

Yes just between MEM and DEN. MEM-DEN could be a indication that they might offer TTN-MEM in the future, US looked at the numbers and decieded to beat them to it.
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GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:56 am

There are apparently two gates at DAL which are in play and out for bid. The DoJ seems to have embedded itself in the award process. Apparently DL wanted the gates but the DoJ said no legacies. I'm not sure I understand why th DoJ would be be involved as DAL is not a capacity controlled airport. It is of course the home base of WN. Everybody seem to think WN will prevail on their home turf.

For the sake of discussion and quiet I wanted to toss out if there might be any thoughts pro or con about F9 beginning service at DAL-TTN or DAL-ILG. Houston-ILG didn't pan out of course. F9 would have both of the Dallas airports covered from different directions. DFW is supposedly there second busiest market after LAS from DEN.

Would WN retaliate if F9 were to start DAL-ILG or DAL-TTN?. The two carriers seem to work in harmony at several other stations including MDW, BNA and DEN which are WN focus cities.
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:37 am

I heard VX wanted them. Also have to wonder why ILG-IAH didn't pan out? Was it ILG? Was it IAH? TTN does have a larger population to draw from and the end of the Wright Ammendment is coming just in-time for the winter timetable of completion of the removal of obstructions to allow longer flights. When talking about longer flights they did mention DFW as a possible destination (probably thinking DL had a lock on the DAL gates) So who knows.
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UN_B732
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:57 am

Speaking of Great Lakes / DEN, Are they flying any 9-seat Beech 1900s under 135 yet? Still think that's an extremely clever way for them to weather out the pilot shortage.

[Edited 2014-03-10 19:04:14]
What now?
 
gustywinds
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:16 pm

Excellent news -

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/03/prweb11656973.htm

Quote:
Frontier Airlines Adds Nonstop Service from Cleveland to Six New Cities
Fly to Atlanta, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Phoenix, Raleigh-Durham, and Tampa with amazing fares at FlyFrontier.com

Following is the schedule for Frontier’s new nonstop service from Cleveland**:

Route: Atlanta
Effective: June 13, 2014
Frequency: Mon/Tues/Wed/Fri/Sat
Aircraft: A320

Route: Fort Lauderdale
Effective: June 14, 2014
Frequency: Mon/Wed/Sat
Aircraft: A320

Route: Fort Myers
Effective: June 13, 2014
Frequency: Wed/Fri/Sun
Aircraft: A320

Route: Phoenix
Effective: June 13, 2014
Frequency: Mon/Wed/Fri
Aircraft: A320

Route: Raleigh Durham
Effective: June 15, 2014
Frequency: Tues/Thurs/Sun
Aircraft: A320

Route: Tampa
Effective: June 15, 2014
Frequency: Tues/Thurs/Sun
Aircraft: A320
 
masseybrown
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:24 pm

I had a feeling there was a reason for the route map's "bigger print, bigger dot for Cleveland" that mariner reported.

It makes tons of operational sense to make the system into a CLE-DEN dumbell, even if the DEN end remains substantially bigger..

[Edited 2014-03-11 08:28:46]
 
Flytravel
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 23):

I had a feeling there was a reason for the route map's "bigger print, bigger dot for Cleveland" that mariner reported.

It makes tons of operational sense to make the system into a CLE-DEN dumbell.

This is good news. The biggest surprise to me is F9 going up against DL on CLE-ATL. It's somewhat like NK that challenges the legacy carrier.

Since F9's service can be tolerated by more pax (including some business pax) than NK's service, I'm sure DL will price match the same day/similar time flights.

CLE-RDU is also another challenge to DL, but DL has limited nonstop frequency and RDU isn't a hub for it, and it's doubtful DL would upgrade it's service. The flight times appear different enough as well.
 
masseybrown
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:49 pm

I don't think F9 is challenging DL so much as they are better utilizing (reducing per pax cost) stations that have relatively few frequencies. They can add a flight for not much more than the variable cost of the flying - always good for margins.

Ok, so how much are they chuckling at headquarters over stealing all this from UA?  
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:25 pm

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 22):
I had a feeling there was a reason for the route map's "bigger print, bigger dot for Cleveland"

Darn and I thought the big dot at CLE meant they are using the A320 for all of the newly announced cities.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 24):
The biggest surprise to me is F9 going up against DL on CLE-ATL.

I think DL and F9 are at ease with each other. And although Republic is no longer in F9 picture RJET did quite a bit of regional flying for DL. I think the old adage "be careful of the hand that feeds you" might be in play.

I wonder how much of this is a result of UA decision to de-hub CLE for these three.

UA CLE-ATL APR 1.7>0.9 MAY 1.6>0.8 JUN 3>0.1 JUL 3>0 AUG 3>0 SEP 3>0 OCT 3>0
UA CLE-PHX SEP 0.9>0 OCT 0.9>0 (There were some May reductions in another thread)
UA CLE-RDU APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0 AUG 3>0 SEP 3>0 OCT 3>0
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Frontier14
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:56 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 26):
I wonder how much of this is a result of UA decision to de-hub CLE for these three.

UA CLE-ATL APR 1.7>0.9 MAY 1.6>0.8 JUN 3>0.1 JUL 3>0 AUG 3>0 SEP 3>0 OCT 3>0
UA CLE-PHX SEP 0.9>0 OCT 0.9>0 (There were some May reductions in another thread)
UA CLE-RDU APR 3>0 MAY 3>0 JUN 3>0 JUL 3>0 AUG 3>0 SEP 3>0 OCT 3>0

You are right on from my perspective. F9 has seen this as an added opportunity and has not wasted any time in responding. What is interesting is none of the adds are to secondary or tertiary airports, but rather major metropolitan areas. The new north - south CLE flying ties in with what F9 has been saying is integral to F9s long term success.

The three growth strategies that Mariner outlined in an earlier thread are quite telling with today's announcement too. Indigo sure has taken the bridle and reacts swiftly when they see a track (city) that has potential for profit.

The article says there are now 12 destinations. I am guessing we will see that double in the next 12-18 months.

For those of us who follow Frontier, this is becoming a wonderful ride. Oh how much things can change in a year looking back at what was. The new owners want to make money and aren't afraid to take some risks to obtain it. Glad to see PHX (Indigo's home) get another leg. Suspect we will see some more connects there over time.

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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 23):
I had a feeling there was a reason for the route map's "bigger print, bigger dot for Cleveland" that mariner reported.

I heard rumors something was happening, but just as a route or two - and I had my fingers crossed for CLE-PHX.

I believe they're "basing" at least one aircraft an CLE - although this is just in scheduling terms. As at TTN, where they still rotate the three TTN based aircraft through the system.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 26):
I wonder how much of this is a result of UA decision to de-hub CLE for these three.

In part, that's surely true - I doubt it would be happening without the United action. But CLE has been very good for Frontier.

CLE-DEN doubles in frequency this summer - that was decided some time before the United thing - and I'm told the reaction to CLE-MCO and CLE-SEA has been excellent.

Daniel Shurz says in the Plan Dealer:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...rontier_airlines_service_at_c.html

"Frontier spokesman Daniel Shurz said the carrier announced new nonstops out of Denver, Chicago Midway and Trenton around the time it went public with plans on adding Seattle and Orlando to its Hopkins' nonstops. Of all the new options at the four airports, Shurz said, the strongest demand came in the Cleveland market."

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masseybrown
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:06 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 26):
I wonder how much of this is a result of UA decision to de-hub CLE for these three.

All of it? I think F9 sees CLE as an exceptionally good fit in light of the city's and the airline's present circumstances and wants to get in ahead of other airlines (B6? WN?) which may want only one or two of the best routes UA is abandoning.
 
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:11 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 29):
All of it? I think F9 sees CLE as an exceptionally good fit in light of the city's and the airline's present circumstances and wants to get in ahead of other airlines (B6? WN?) which may want only one or two of the best routes UA is abandoning.

What's been missed - or what I haven't seen posted anywhere - is that CLE-MCO also goes from 4 x weekly to 6 x weekly.

mariner
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masseybrown
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:32 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
What's been missed - or what I haven't seen posted anywhere - is that CLE-MCO also goes from 4 x weekly to 6 x weekly.

It was mentioned in a Crain's Cleveland, a business newspaper, today that MCO frequency was increased before service had even begun based on demand.
 
Flytravel
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 25):
I don't think F9 is challenging DL so much as they are better utilizing (reducing per pax cost) stations that have relatively few frequencies. They can add a flight for not much more than the variable cost of the flying - always good for margins.

I agree that F9 is doing what you summarized.

But from DL's markedly territorial view in regards to their fortress like hub markets: ATL, DTW and maybe MSP, any flight into the hub from a competing carrier, esp. from an airport with DL running the same flight, is probably thought of as a challenge. Unless the carrier can be so crappy to it's customers like NK that it self fends off business customers from using it. Then DL ignores the challenge.

I think DL might view F9 like B6 rather than NK.

Pax will suddenly see deep discounts on the same day/same time departures from DL.
It's a good test though. If F9 can be succesful on CLE-ATL, it would have no qualms of starting CLE-DFW and CLE-IAH as well, with the similar less than daily offering.

I hope that the strength of CLE to the west, along with MDT and TTN/ILG to the east, will mean PIT getting some F9 domestic service.

[Edited 2014-03-11 13:10:44]
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:11 pm

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 32):
But from DL's markedly territorial view in regards to their fortress like hub markets: ATL, DTW and maybe MSP, any flight into ATL from a competing carrier, esp. from an airport with DL running the same flight, is probably thought of as a challenge. Unless the carrier can be so crappy to it's customers like NK that it self fends off business customers from using it. Then DL ignores the challenge.

This is really the first time there has been a direct challenge to Delta since the notorious adventures at MCI - Delta went nuclear when Frontier added MCI-MSP, and immediately overlaid five of Frontier's routes at MCI.

But - TTN-ATL and ILG-ATL raised not a peep from Delta. Nor DTW. Nor - so far - TTN-MSP.

So yes, this will be interesting, because it is direct overlay, by Frontier of Delta - ATL and RDU. I assume Frontier is ready for a response, but equally, does Delta see this ULCC Frontier as threat?

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-11 13:47:35]
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masseybrown
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:33 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
So yes, this will be interesting, because it is direct overlay, by Frontier of Delta - ATL and RDU. I assume Frontier is ready for a response, but equally, does Delta see this ULCC Frontier as threat?

We'll find out. It's interesting that nobody expects UA to respond; they are planning to continue operating the Florida routes and to maintain a crew base in CLE. I doubt they expected to be challenged so broadly so soon.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:56 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 34):
We'll find out. It's interesting that nobody expects UA to respond; they are planning to continue operating the Florida routes and to maintain a crew base in CLE. I doubt they expected to be challenged so broadly so soon.

Generally speaking, when it is just United and Frontier they have co-existed pretty well. There are numerous routes out of DEN where it is just the two airlines - MSN, BIS, FAR, MOT, etc. Initially, they co-existed on DEN-GRR - it was Southwest's arrival that caused the problem.

The theory is that low fares stimulate the market for the benefit of all - a rising tide lifts all boats - and this seemed to happen at MSN.

Then again, it was Southwest's arrival on DEN-CAK that was partly responsible for Frontier's move to CLE - and as far as I am aware United did not detrimentally respond to that.

It's also possible that Delta sees the limited frequency ULCC Frontier as a bulwark against the more aggressive frequencies of Southwest.

Or perhaps that Bill Franke of Indigo is perceived to have deeper pockets and bigger balls than any previous Frontier.

I dunno. I'm ready for anything.

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Frontier14
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
So yes, this will be interesting, because it is direct overlay, by Frontier of Delta - ATL and RDU. I assume Frontier is ready for a response, but equally, does Delta see this ULCC Frontier as threat?

Since the UA CLE pulldown was announced hasn't DL jumped on three routes from CLE to IND, RDU and BDL? I am thinking DL was wanting to cherry pick what they could in order to prevent F9 from grabbing/selecting these routes too. As you say, is DL viewing F9 at this point as a "fly", or as a "gnat" in which case we will undoubtedly see a response.

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Flytravel
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:48 am

Regarding RDU-CLE, I think F9 and DL are both doing opportunistic flying but neither are offering a comprehensive schedule. I think the flight times are different enough as well. DL has RJs and high fares likely catering to some corporate pax base reimbursed by their client or employer. F9 maybe going for VFR and pax paying out of their own pocket.

DL probably will respond with low fares on CLE-ATL on the same time but even then DL needs to keep half of the seats likely open for connecting pax, so it has fewer seats that it can discount. I don't think F9 will care if DL will enjoy a fare premium.

I wonder if F9 is considering a station in SC. Opening up MYR with MYR-CLE might dampen NK interest and NK interest in CLE. I don't think F9 would be pleased to see NK interest and undercutting of them at CLE.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:31 am

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 37):
F9 maybe going for VFR and pax paying out of their own pocket.

Sure is. It's a line that Daniel Shurz used at Cleveland and has been using quite a lot recently:

http://fox8.com/2014/03/11/even-frie...lying-more-for-less-with-frontier/

"“We’re an airline designed for customers who use their own money to pay for travel. We realize what values are important to our customers and that’s what we deliver,” added Shurz."

It;s a good line, maybe a great one, and exactly explains what they;re up to.

Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
and I had my fingers crossed for CLE-PHX.

Just to add to that, I am really quite surprised that Frontier gets CLE-PHX all on its own-some, at least for now. It's route that I'm sure will do well in summer but be gangbusters in winter.

I'm surprised that Southwest hasn't jumped on it, long before this, but then Southwest at CLE has long puzzled me, that they have done so little there. Southwest does fly CLE-RSW, seasonally, so it's the second time Frontier has jumped on a seasonal Southwest route from CLE, MCO being the first.

I wonder if we'll see CLE-LAS at some stage.  

mariner
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F9Fan
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:21 am

Good to see F9 taking advantage of the UA departure from CLE. The CLE market is a little smaller than DEN, but with some opprotunities if you aer willing to drive some. CAK is to CLE as COS is to DEN, plus you have PIT a little over two hours away (PIT is advertising heavily in the Cleveland market now.) CMH and DTW are within about three hours, so those are viable options too. By comparison, the only comprable airports within 500 miles of DEN are ABQ and SLC.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:50 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
I am really quite surprised that Frontier gets CLE-PHX all on its own-some, at least for now. It's route that I'm sure will do well in summer but be gangbusters in winter.

I have it on good authority they don't shovel sunshine in PHX. If F9 keeps flying from the colder to warmer destinations they may to start shopping for a "snowbird" tail critter. I think I saw one of those on an AS tail.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
masseybrown
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:45 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 40):
I have it on good authority they don't shovel sunshine in PHX.

In a PHX summer, the shovels would melt.  
Quoting F9Fan (Reply 39):
The CLE market [offers] some opprotunities if you aer willing to drive some. CAK is to CLE as COS is to DEN, plus you have PIT a little over two hours away (PIT is advertising heavily in the Cleveland market now.) CMH and DTW are within about three hours,

People from the eastern sections of Toledo and Erie, PA, are also CLE customers when the flight is long and the fare is cheap. Folklore says lots of PIT people drove to CLE in the early days of WN service. Huge numbers get quoted, but I think that's an exaggeration.
 
masseybrown
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:53 am

There was speculation in Aviation Week that Indigo-associate Tigerair Singapore has gotten a little ahead of itself. If there is any retrenchment, I wonder if Frontier might acquire (lease? sublease?) a few A320 aircraft from Tigerair's fleet of about 50.

Wizz Ukraine, another Indigo associate, may have a few spares, as well. It's convenient that Indigo's stable of airlines all operate A320's.
 
PITrules
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:26 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 41):
Folklore says lots of PIT people drove to CLE in the early days of WN service. Huge numbers get quoted, but I think that's an exaggeration.

Its certainly not folklore; those of us in Pittsburgh know all too well about the leakage to CLE when PIT was a fortress hub.

Here is an archived article, but it requires registration and payment to view.
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/...sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no

But inside it states:
"With more competition and lower fares, he believes the Pittsburgh airport could recapture an estimated 750000 travelers who drive to Cleveland"

750,000 does indeed sound high, but consider PIT's O&D was about 6 million during the days of high fares. But it peaked at over 7 million in 2007 when Pittsburgh had low fares and the market was stimulated. I have no doubt the number of trips to CLE from Pittsburgh was in the hundreds of thousands.
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jeepyjeep
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:35 pm

Just saw that the Frontier schedule was extended until mid-September. Haven't seen any surprises yet, but did notice that some of the MDT-MCO flights and some of the MDT-DEN flights are on the A320!
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:24 pm

If you want to be saving some green on your F9 ticket for travel by May 21, 2014 use code POTOGOLD by March 18 to save 17 %
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:41 am

There's obviously quite a lot of buzz about CLE, especially since Siegel has said it is now a focus city, and it;s best summed up in this headline:

http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...es-to-the-rescue-in-cleveland.aspx

"Frontier Airlines Comes to the Rescue in Cleveland"

It's a sensible article, with a clear view of Frontier's place at CLE;

Frontier offers a very different type of product than United or the other legacy carriers. Most of its new Cleveland routes will be served less than daily (typically with three to five weekly flights). Frontier also lacks a first class section, and legroom tends to be tighter than on United's planes. These attributes make Frontier less attractive to business travelers.

However, many leisure customers will be happy to cope with less legroom and a more restrictive flight schedule for the lower fares that Frontier will offer. Thus, while losing the United hub may be bad for Cleveland-area businesses, it seems increasingly likely that leisure travelers will benefit from more competition and lower fares."


The point should probably be made that it is still Frontier and some of the "rules"of Frontier still apply, the limited frequency and it will like be intensely seasonal. CLE-SEA is already known to be such and no matter how well CLE-PHX is booking now, it was originally said to be seasonal in The Plain Dealer:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...rontier_airlines_service_at_c.html

"Frontier Airlines this morning announced it was adding six more nonstop destinations out of Cleveland, including a seasonal nonstop to Phoenix."

I suppose my point is that Frontier is not intending to replace United, although it is easy enough to dream that it might, but limited frequency and seasonally will play into this and, as obviously some of Frontier's own fleet constraints.

There's more. Obviously, some of this - a lot - has to do with Indigo (and in the specific case of CLE, United), but the forgotten man may be Siegel, who turned the airline around.

Siegel has copped a lot of crap on this board and on this website and generally, but he did what needed to happen. TTN came about because of Siegel's determination that Frontier needed to participate in the extensive Northeast to Florida snowbird traffic, for example.

He's a man with a formidable knowledge of the industry and is presently functioning as CEO, CFO and COO while Frontier finds others for those last two jobs. Hopefully, they'll appoint good ones.

I don't know how long Siegel will stay at Frontier - the candidate for COO might be picked as a potential and eventual CEO - but I hope he stays for awhile, because a great deal of the present optimism about Frontier is due to him.

mariner

[Edited 2014-03-18 18:25:15]
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Jerseyguy
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:15 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):

people may not like how he did it, but the airline did turn around, the alternative was much much worse (aka non-existant).
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Flytravel
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
I suppose my point is that Frontier is not intending to replace United, although it is easy enough to dream that it might, but limited frequency and seasonally will play into this and, as obviously some of Frontier's own fleet constraints.

I wonder if WN and UA would actually like F9 to grow in CLE and might not contest it with response in any form, if it results in F9 shifting some flights and reducing it's footprint at DEN. An action like F9 using it's two slot pairs from LGA-DEN converting them to LGA-CLE would probably result in yield increase and/or more marketshare capture for WN, UA and DL on LGA-DEN, with F9 out of the picture. UA is on LGA-CLE as well so it's yields depress there, but it's likely not a strategic route although probably profitable.

CLE and TTN/ILG are modeled very point to point, with no thru flights, no connections. It's like F9 deliberately didn't want to offer TTN-CLE-any destination as a CLE being a thru.

Out in DEN, F9 is still more a hub carrier. One can fly IAH-DEN-SEA for example. If F9 transforms DEN into more opportunistic focus over hub like CLE and TTN, so that pax can no longer fly IAH-DEN-SEA but every IAH-DEN flight is only O D between these cities, and every DEN-SEA flight is only O and D between these cities, then it cuts the number of flights/week to just meet the O and D. It might free up aircraft for F9 to be elsewhere but less big in DEN.

[Edited 2014-03-18 20:31:16]
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 45

Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:58 am

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 48):
I wonder if WN and UA would actually like F9 to grow in CLE and might not contest it with response in any form, if it results in F9 shifting some flights and reducing it's footprint at DEN.

I;m not sure that will happen in any serious way, although to a small extent it may have.

While the percentage of Frontier that is DEN-centric may decrease as the others grow, that doesn't mean it's DEN footprint will shrink - it has added four destinations at DEN this summer - simply that others may grow, such as CLE.

Would Frontier really want to abandon DEN-LGA in favour of, say, CLE-LGA? Maybe - I'm not sure about that.

Mostly, I don't think it matters much to United what Frontier does at CLE. United must have known that someone would jump in and perhaps better Frontier than some others - they have different target markets. It seems to have reached a level of coexistence with Frontier on many routes.

I suppose Southwest might react - and possibly has by announcing CLE-LAS as year round, maybe as a warning to Frontier - but Southwest has CLE-MCO/RSW as seasonal and that hasn't stopped Frontier. And what would Southwest do about CAK?

I'm a wee bitty more concerned about Delta, which has usually gone nuclear if Frontier intrudes on its turf - TTN/ILG being exceptions, but Delta doesn't serve them. Is CLE-ATL a poke in the eye, though, and CLE-RDU, both of which Delta announced before Frontier?

Maybe Delta has come to the same conclusion about Frontier (as ULCC) as it has with Spirit - that they serve different markets. Or maybe it sees Frontier at CLE as a bulwark against Southwest.

I dunno - but I won't quite relax for a week or two.

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 48):
CLE and TTN/ILG are modeled very point to point, with no thru flights, no connections.

I think that's fairly deliberate.

I guess it would be possible to self connect on a couple of routes through TTN, at least one way, but I don't think there is the frequency to allow realistic connections both ways.

To some extent the same is true of CLE. Eventually, connections will happen, I guess, but if they can build the O&D, the connection possibilities may happen organically, rather than deliberately imposing them.

It's verrrrry early days at CLE and I am a bit shell-shocked they can do what they are with the constrained fleet they have.

mariner
aeternum nauta

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