Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 246): Hi Celestar, If the missing Malaysian B777 was a politically motivated act of Terrorism, then it does seem strange that if it was a bomb that was detonated onboard, why was it set to detonate over water instead of over Chinese Airspace, where it would have more of a directed impact,

If you haven't inferred it from the discussion of previous explosions, water means a tougher investigation.

Quoting comair25 (Reply 223): Last known radar reports puts the plane around FL350, I highly doubt anyone was going to get a text or call out. And it was actually 2 hours after leaving Kuala lumpar that they lost radar contact.

http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh370/#2d81a27

~40 minutes to loss of data, is very close to official reports as far as flight time, track, and position.

[Edited 2014-03-09 19:23:15]

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 248): Widebodies can land at MTOW if needed

Point taken. I was merely pointing out that there is no manufacturing requirement (AFAIK) for fuel dumping - just widebodies are more likely to be able to do so.
The plane in question could, which is consistent with the discovered "oil slicks". Could be wishful thinking though.

Last three FR24 headings are 25 28 and 40.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 248): Widebodies can land at MTOW if needed. Max landing wieght is for safe *routine* operation. If you need to land, doing so at MTOW runs the risk of damage to the aircraft, but it is still quite possible.

Yes, landing over MLW just requires some extensive checks before the aircraft can take off again, although any pilot would try to dump some fuel at least if possible for the reduced fire risk.

-CXfirst

Quoting Coal (Reply 240): Quoting hivue (Reply 227): Anyone wishing to commit an act of terror on an airliner would be pretty stupid to buy a one-way ticket. But if you think of how this would play out, e.g. two European backpackers on an extended vacation in SE Asia, now returning home, is not all that unusual. Not sure whether immigration authorities have access to airline reservation systems, but I have never been asked to show a return ticket when traveling in Southeast Asia.

I believe citizens of all countries in Europe require a visa to enter China. From what I can find, to obtain a tourist visa you have to show evidence that you hold a round trip ticket (or presumably a ticket continuing beyond China).

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):

Just as an example, on a business jet I get to fly the checklist including memory items for a dual engine failure are

1) thrust levers idle (this commands the FADEC to try a relight)
2) oxygen masks don (airplane at cruise will start loosing cabin pressure without engines providing pressure)
3) communications establish (this means talking between crew members so we can talk to each other)
Checklist then asks if an engine relight
If no, try a windmill start - if yes land as soon as practical
If still no go to ditch or forced landing procedures

Ditch procedure

Prepare passengers for landing
Notify ATC
Squawk 7700
Etc to landing

Notice that talking to ATC is number 7 on our list of things to do. The first job is take care of the airplane.

Quoting infinit (Reply 217): Malaysian Home Minister says the passengers who used stolen European passports were of Asian appearance

I was surprised that the two mysterious passengers were of Asian descent, clearly this does not look like the profile some have speculated in previous threads. I do questioned the minister's criticism on why immigration officials let those Asian descent individuals holding European passports admitted into their border.

Clearly, as far as the document are not flagged and appear authentic, what rights do the immigration officials had to refuse their entry. I don't think an official can lawfully detain or refuse someone with a legitimate document just because an Asian man was having a European passport. The real question is, actually how did his administration have no updates on the list of Interpol's red flags on stolen/missing documents, which lead to immigration officials believing that the passport was hold by its rightful owner? This resulted in two mysterious individuals admitted into their border
Or did I missed something here?

Quoting celestar (Reply 220): My only question was why the terriorist group was so silience without taking responsibility?

IF and a big IF this was an act of terrorism, one of the most possible scenario I could think of was another Bojinka plot back in the 1990s. Terrorists (as far as we have heard), don't take claims for their dry-runs, but they will when their real intended attack have happened. I'm not spreading any conspiracy theories here, but somehow what we've heard so far about the stolen identities and the multi-connection flights does seem to share similarities with the perpetrators on the deadly terror plot.

Has there been confirmation that the Malacca Strait is being searched or not?

If the last three heading turns were to the right, the outboard ailerons would be locked out during high speed flight at any rate, placing no loads on the wing tip and aileron section that was repaired, as far as my very limited knowledge on wing aerodynamics and structural loads is concerned.

[Edited 2014-03-09 19:38:46]

Amazed that the Malacca Strait is a possibility. Surely it would have been tracked crossing back over the peninsula.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 251): Quoting comair25 (Reply 223): Last known radar reports puts the plane around FL350, I highly doubt anyone was going to get a text or call out. And it was actually 2 hours after leaving Kuala lumpar that they lost radar contact. http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh370/#2d81a27 ~40 minutes to loss of data

Don't rely too much on the loss of contact from FlightRadar24.
It just gathers VHF information and a lot of the information is supplied from equipment operated by enthusiasts.
The last contact was thru their WMKC station (Sultan Ismail Petra (Kota Bharu, Kelantan)) and most likely is a small VHF receive based on the airfield. It lost contact at about the normal distance for this type of equipment and the turn indicated could be just garbled data.
No ATC or Military radar data has been released to my knowledge

Quoting dirktraveller (Reply 257):

Just because they don't look like the ethnicity of the country on the passport, doesn't make them suspicious...

And, at least in America, you don't have many rights when crossing the international border. Border agents have wide discretion, now if they over step reasonable bounds on a consistent basis, congress can get involved.

I imagine it is very similar in SE Asia.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 57): Quoting rdu2sfo (Reply 55):Agreed - there has to be significant information at this stage that is not public. BUT it still makes no sense to search both sides of the peninsula. Either you know that plane flew over land or you don't.I wonder too why the information regarding the military radar and the plane possibly turning back is so ambiguous. The authorities should know whether it turned back or not, unless the plane disintegrated in which case they should know the debris location pretty well.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 88): Quoting rampart (Reply 74):I wonder if a land impact would be registered. Seismographs are probably common in the region.I wouldn't be surprised if defense-related sensors of some sort actually registered - or were capable of detecting - an impact or catastrophe of this nature, on land and/or sea. The issue that arises is agencies or governments revealing their capability, should such info become public.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 163): The travel agency would be well aware of the cover story given by these two, but I'm sure we're not going to be privy to it as the authorities doubtless want to keep it close to their vest.I suspect that a lot of material is being withheld at the moment in the hope that if this is terrorism the terrorists can be caught. Like how the ATF withheld that they had quickly found an axle with the VIN tag for the Ryder truck carrying the bomb in the 1993 WTC bombing. That was an amazing piece of police work, allowing them to quickly identify it as a Ryder truck and where it was last rented. That the guy who rented it was stupid enough to claim it was stolen and demand his deposit back led to prompt arrests and an enormous break in the case that otherwise wouldn't have happened, and the break certainly wouldn't have happened if the ATF had announced what it had found

There may indeed a lot more known when and where this flight may have ended up in the water but their sources. This event occurred in a area of some border and territorial disputes. Various governments, including the USA via the Navy and/or the CIA won't want to let anyone know their locations or even being there. That may all mean slow passing of info to the public.
As the last quote from another post noted, there may be information withheld to protect the evidence and the investigation so if a criminal or terrorism act, criminal prosecution can take place. You may not want to have scavengers looking for remains of the a/c, especially metal from it or even personal belongings to make money on. One has to wonder too if some of the wrong info put out early on were part of intentional distractions to protect any investigation.

Quoting rdu2sfo (Reply 230): I would also note from this Times article that it appears samples were taking from that "oil" slick for testing. That would suggest that there was some actual non-naturally occurring fluid in the pictures of the slick that have been posted.

The nytimes.com article had the one and only photo of the "slick" I have seen. A poster on a previous part of this thread who is a marine scientist said it appeared to be a cyanobacteria bloom, a phenomenon that occurs in the area at this time of the year.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 239): perhaps i'm overlooking something obvious, but what makes you say that?

Since 9/11, passengers with one-way tickets are scrutinized more so any smart terrorist today would get a round trip ticket.

Quoting cipango (Reply 153): People are going on and on about the stolen passports and many have implied that they "chose" the KUL-PEK on purpose. If they were simply people trying to get into the EU as some believe, maybe the flight from KUL-PEK-AMS-CPH/FRA was cheaper to fly from Malaysia than from Thailand. This is under the assumption that they were simply passengers and not linked to terrorism.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 163): I think it's a fair bet that some nefarious activity is involved with those two. The holders of two passports stolen a year apart end up walking into a Pattaya travel agency together for one-way tickets to two different destinations but want the same itinerary until they get to Amsterdam, and they will be departing the next day from a different country 800 miles away?

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 163): The travel agency would be well aware of the cover story given by these two, but I'm sure we're not going to be privy to it as the authorities doubtless want to keep it close to their vest.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 207): Whoever they were, they choose the wrong flight...

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 207): And id like to know about this agency in pattaya, thats the issuer but are they also the one that sold the ticket?

I think the fact that the two travellers were on CZ tickets to CPH and FRA via a circuitous route suggests that they were actually trying to get to the booked destinations or at least into the EU. Checking Expedia just now, I find that if I want to travel from KUL to CPH/FRA next Saturday (ie same day of the week as the pair we are discussing, and with almost last-minute booking) then the same itinerary on CZ code-shares comes up as the cheapest option by some AUD300 for CPH, and marginally cheaper than a UL one-stop to FRA.

I don't find the Uighur (or other) terrorism on a CZ codeshare explanation at all convincing. If you are going to strike at China you would make certain that you were going to bring down a Chinese airliner, and you would also claim responsibility.

If we view the pair as potential illegal immigrants or refugees, it is a reasonable hypothesis that they contacted people smugglers in Malaysia who offer to provide each of them with an EU passport (previously stolen in Thailand) and tickets to their destination. The travel agency in Pattaya may have taken walk-in bookings from the people-smuggling network, but it is equally possible that they are the ticket issuer for a travel website. The pair would not even have to be known to each other in this scenario - the sequential ticket numbers would be explained by the people smugglers making online reservations for the cheapest travel to the preferred destination.

So I think they may just have been unlucky to get on this flight.

I don't know whether we will hear more detail on the tickets & travel agent quickly from the Malaysian authorities. IIRC news about the stolen passports came to light on Sunday, and someone on a.net posted the reservation details the same day. It could have taken hours before this information was picked up by the Malaysian police and intelligence service. Can you imagine how hard it would be on any day of the week, let alone Sunday, for them to have enquiries made by Thai police in Pattaya? And once the trail of video evidence from KUL and travel agency interviews in Pattaya is put together, the authorities will presumably be trying to follow up on any criminal or terrorist network.

Quoting dirktraveller (Reply 257): I was surprised that the two mysterious passengers were of Asian descent, clearly this does not look like the profile some have speculated in previous threads. I do questioned the minister's criticism on why immigration officials let those Asian descent individuals holding European passports admitted into their border.

I was born in India, have a very German name, and a US passport and citizenship. Would you have me denied boarding?

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 260): Amazed that the Malacca Strait is a possibility. Surely it would have been tracked crossing back over the peninsula.

This is what I thought as well. Then I began to wonder if the difference in the initial reports of time was the difference between two events. Meaning at 40 minutes, over the Gulf of Thailand, the transponder was turned off and at the 2 hour mark, somewhere over the Malacca Strait, radar contact was lost.

This however adds a level of conspiracy and confusion to the matter. Just trying to come up with a reason to why searching the other side of the peninsula is an option.

With satellite technology, can they help any? I would think it would be of some help.

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 261): It lost contact at about the normal distance for this type of equipment and the turn indicated could be just garbled data.

So how does flightradar24 do ADSB tracking of aircraft farther out in the gulf? Also, I believe it was the Chinese who reported the turn.

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 261): Don't rely too much on the loss of contact from FlightRadar24. It just gathers VHF information and a lot of the information is supplied from equipment operated by enthusiasts. The last contact was thru their WMKC station (Sultan Ismail Petra (Kota Bharu, Kelantan)) and most likely is a small VHF receive based on the airfield. It lost contact at about the normal distance for this type of equipment and the turn indicated could be just garbled data. No ATC or Military radar data has been released to my knowledge

I don't rely on it, that's why I said it matches official reports. If it did not match, I wouldn't use it to illustrate the flight.

Quoting celestar (Reply 220): I still maintain my first guess that this is an act of terriorist attack by the East Turkistan Movement at Xin Jiang

The only problem with that theory is that this is a Malaysian airline, not a Chinese one, and Malaysia is a Muslim country.

Interesting article on The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ia-airlines-flight-mh370-black-box

Quoting N328KF (Reply 267):

Is your passport reported stolen?  

It seems highly unlikely that a bomb or wing separation at altitude took place - the debris field would be massive and easy to spot. Imagine throwing a hand full of confetti in the air - it would flutter down everywhere.

No, I tend to believe that the a/c came down intact - somehow, someway. The images from ValueJet in the everglades come to mind. The sudden loss of data reporting from ACARS and the transponder is baffling however.

Hoping for the best  

Quoting flylku (Reply 195): It surprises me that the primary returns from the various radar systems have not shed more light (so we are told). In 2000 I was once flying over West Virginia in a Piper Tri-Pacer (single engine, metal frame covered in fabric) when the transponder failed. We turned it off and asked Washington Center for flight following based on the primary return. They reported that they saw us! If they could see us what would the primary return of a 777 look like? Even if it disintegrated in flight, pieces of the wreckage would be larger than the radar signature of our little Tri-Pacer.

All this is true, but you have to assume:
- Radar coverage.
- Radar manning.
- Recording of radar data.

Any number of things could have happened that made radar data unavailable.

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 202): Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 193): However if the repair was done according to Boeing specs and certified correct, the wing would be at least as strong as when the plane came off the showroom floor. Say, if there was a major issue with that wing. Let's say part of it broke off, could it sever communications completely and immediately that nothing related to the planes' systems could be communicated automatically or by the pilots?

I can't see how. There are no antennas or radios on the wings. They're all in and on the fuselage.

Quoting specks159 (Reply 203): Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 199): Furthermore, the 777 has roll control from three sources: outboard aileron, inboard aileron and spoilers. So even without the outer aileron, roll control could be maintained. Hypothetically, if the wingtip were to fall off, lock the outboard aileron, and then drain all of the hydraulic fluid in the area, is the hydraulic system on the 777 such that it would isolate the area and keep system pressure up for the rest of the plane? Or could that possible cause a UA232 like loss of hydraulic control?

Unlikely. Independent hydraulic systems and hydraulic fuses would preclude this.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 210): Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 176): This is with some safety margins I would assume? The way I was always taught was that those distances were calculated under perfect conditions with test pilots performing them. The captain had a lot of hours so he could probably get close to those numbers.

Perfect conditions, sure. But there's still a 30% margin and an assumption of 50ft height at the threshold, meaning if you're talking actual length of asphalt rolled on even a "lesser" pilot will at least manage the quoted numbers.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 213): Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 183): No worries. Fuel dumping is only needed if the maximum take-off weight exceeds the maximum landing weight by a considerable margin, and this really only happens with wide bodies. i was under the impression planes landing overweight was perfectly doable, it would just mean checks before the plane can be used again.

Doable, yes. Advisable, no. Unless the plane is on fire or something and you need to get on the ground ASAP, dumping fuel is much safer than risking an overweight landing, meaning faster than usual with possible tyre damage apart from possible structural damage.

Quoting CaptainKramer (Reply 231): Further to the damaged starboard wing failure scenario, and out of curiousity, if the aircraft rolled to the right, because of increased drag and reduced lift owing to wing tip failure, would the Flight Software logic come into play and apply rudder input to port (left) side to compensate for the asymetric configuration, or does this scenario only apply to engine out scenario.

I don't think so. In any case there are three sources of roll control already. Two sets of ailerons and spoilers.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 255): I believe citizens of all countries in Europe require a visa to enter China. From what I can find, to obtain a tourist visa you have to show evidence that you hold a round trip ticket (or presumably a ticket continuing beyond China).

Since 2013, citizens of most (all?) EU countries can enter certain cities in China, including PEK, for 72 hours without a visa as long as they have a departing ticket within the time frame.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 275):

Quick Electrical power loss... Anyone know what the RAT powers on the 777?

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 249): In terms of mobilized search crews/planes/ships - any ideas on how the number and capabilities of these resources add up? Are they overwhelmed with the sheer amount of area to search, or are the available resources more than adequate?

I was wondering this myself. It seems there should be more than adequate equipment. But who is coordinating the activities? Too many cooks spoil the broth. Is it the Malaysian or the Vietnamese?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 255): I believe citizens of all countries in Europe require a visa to enter China. From what I can find, to obtain a tourist visa you have to show evidence that you hold a round trip ticket (or presumably a ticket continuing beyond China).

Not if you are transiting or are visiting for 72hrs. Besides they had a ticket going to AMS anyway.

Cheers
Coal

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 255): I believe citizens of all countries in Europe require a visa to enter China.

Also, I was referring to them only booking a one way, presumably out of Southeast Asia (assuming they were going back home to Europe). I would also remind you China is not in Southeast Asia.

Cheers
Coal

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 268): Meaning at 40 minutes, over the Gulf of Thailand, the transponder was turned off and at the 2 hour mark, somewhere over the Malacca Strait, radar contact was lost.

How could they be over the Malacca Strait? A) Check a few posts above, I posted for those Geographically challenged a map of where the aircraft lost contact and where the Malacca Strait is or B) Check on Google Maps where the Malacca Strait is before making ill-informed comments like the one you made.

Cheers
Coal

Quoting celestar (Reply 220): My only question was why the terriorist group was so silience without taking responsibility

AI182 and PA103 didn't have, I don't think, credible and quick claims of responsibility.

I don't see any particular reason to favor a hypothesis of sabotage here over any other hypothesis, but I don't take the lack of a call of responsibility as meaningful either way.

Quoting Coal (Reply 280):

Man, give it rest will you. I don't see the red lettering 'Forum Moderator' next to your name but you sure are acting like one! People don't have to read an entire 7 threads of what is essentially speculation to be involved in this discussion.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 267): I was born in India, have a very German name, and a US passport and citizenship. Would you have me denied boarding?

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 262): Just because they don't look like the ethnicity of the country on the passport, doesn't make them suspicious...

I do apologise if I'm misleading both of you suggesting that everyone of Asian descent having a western name and passport is subject to suspiscion. I myself agree with Web500's statement that having a passport from a country that doesn't match someone's ethnicity DOES NOT constitute sufficient grounds for suspiscion.
Mind you, I myself have a western name and an Asian face, holding a passport from an Asian country.

I would have not certainly denied you boarding N328KF just because of that, as long as these individuals present a legitimate document to support their identity.

What I am trying to say was what right does the minister have to simply say as I quote from the news article:

“I am still perturbed. Can’t these immigration officials think? Italian and Austrian (passport holders) but with Asian faces,”

Clearly, I do agree with both of your statement that if someone does not match the ethnicity of the country's passport they are holding, that does not mean they're suspicious. Which is why I disagreed with his opinion and questioned why such remarks or criticism should be drawn to the immigration officials.

I don't think the border patrol agency should be in total blame, considering they could not just detain or refuse entry to individuals just because they are of Asian descent, holding passport of a European country under a western name.

The real question he should be asking is, as I said in previous reply, how did the minister's administration completely missed two passports that have been in Interpol red flag for being stolen/missing.

Hope this clear up my stand on the passport and ethnicity issue, and I am sorry if I have confused both of you.

This is a real tragedy for all the families so my heart goes out to them. The bio on the pilot indicated that this guy was a pure aviator with 18K + flight hours. I have no doubt that he was probably one of their finest captains and would have done everything to save the plane. Its also tragic that its the first major accident of a 777 a plane we all love.

I don't think its terrorism just because no one has claimed credit and there isn't a real motive for any group to do this. I don't think the passports are nearly as suspicious as you guys do. If you've been to 3rd world countries you know these things are frequently stolen and very often used for illegal immigrants. The two consecutive tickets were probably just for a man and woman trying to sneak into Europe or something. Even though the end destinations were different, I think this is done on purpose. If you're suicidal there is no reason to hide your identity unless you have a record. They're going to find you on security vids anyway.

Its also just really hard to pull off an attack now. No one has been successful since 9/11.

The lack of a Mayday or ACARs in my opinion seems to indicate a structural failure that lead to a quick breakup. They probably are just looking in the wrong place right now. The "turn" on radar might have been a debris field or the plane yawing. I'm still hoping the plane had its transponder turned off and got hijacked to north korea or something but that looks less and less likely as time passes.

Anyone know anything about the center fuel tank on the 777? Its not inerted AFAIK. Looks more like TWA800 than anything else.

[Edited 2014-03-09 20:15:44]

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 277): Quick Electrical power loss... Anyone know what the RAT powers on the 777?

It generates about 7.5kva and powers the center hydraulic systems, some backup hydraulic systems, flight control systems and the FMC if i'm not mistaken

Brgds/Sen

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 272):

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 272): Quoting celestar (Reply 220): I still maintain my first guess that this is an act of terriorist attack by the East Turkistan Movement at Xin Jiang The only problem with that theory is that this is a Malaysian airline, not a Chinese one, and Malaysia is a Muslim country.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 272): Quoting celestar (Reply 220): I still maintain my first guess that this is an act of terriorist attack by the East Turkistan Movement at Xin Jiang The only problem with that theory is that this is a Malaysian airline, not a Chinese one, and Malaysia is a Muslim country.

Unless there was an act of Martyrdom...

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 284): Its also just really hard to pull off an attack now. No one has been successful since 9/11.

There have been at least twelve hijackings since 9/11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_hijackings#2000s

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 284): The lack of a Mayday or ACARs in my opinion seems to indicate a structural failure that lead to a quick breakup.

Not necessarily. AF447 did not make a distress call either. Communication is not a priority if the situation is not stable.

Hi All,

Part 8 has been created. Please continue the conversation in that thread, which can be found here MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation) .

All posts after the lock will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.

Regards,
Pat