jetblueguy22
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:47 pm

Due to length part 9 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 10.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)
MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

-There's no solid evidence other that 9M-MRO remains missing.

-There's no indication that ACARS was active on 9M-MRO.

-The debris field, when it's finally located might be our first clue as to what happened. But even that is being distorted by the ocean as the hours pass.

-We still have the barest of info.

-There were no calls for help, and apparently data and radar were lost around 41 minutes into the flight near IGARI waypoint.

-Several countries are assisting in the search effort.

-At present a government cover-up seems unlikely.

*** Extracts from several members ***


A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome. Enjoy the forums!


Regards and thanks so much for your co-operation,

Pat

[Edited 2014-03-10 14:48:29]
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flyingturtle
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:55 pm

(repost from thread #10)

Quoting ideekay (Reply 261):

If you also account for flying low (to avoid primary radars), you'll end up with a radius of 1500 nm (at least I've read that in one of the previous posts).

Quoting indcwby (Reply 244):
But in a situation like this, and if it is determined that terrorism is the result of this case, then he could/would easily become a scapegoat for providing a way on board the flight. Again, key word is if those stolen passports played a role at all.

Then he may be a scapegoat. But in order to book tickets, does the Iranian need to know IF the passports were stolen? Until now I didn't have to indicate my passport number when booking anything. U2 and W6 let me happily fly in the past four years. I just had to indicate my name as it is written on my credit card.


David

[Edited 2014-03-10 14:56:30]
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:59 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Thread starter):
-We still have the barest of info.

And yet eleven threads that are chock-a-block...
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Ideekay
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:59 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 1):
If you also account for flying low (to avoid primary radars), you'll end up with a radius of 1500 nm (at least I've read that in one of the previous posts).

Thanks for the info.
In that case its 1500 * 1.852 = 2778 Km

So the map COULD look like this:
 
samair
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:00 pm

I don't understand why the authorities are still looking for wreckage, they are assuming that the aircraft has broken up (it's never good to assume anything). Based on previous 2 major 777 crashes where the fuselage has remained almost intact. Could it be possible that with a very experienced pilot the aircraft has had a very successful landing but unfortunately sank before people could evacuate?
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speedbird128
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:01 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 215):
Note - I believe modern ATC systems will continue to show a predicted track and information for a time - I don't know how long (minutes or seconds I would expect). This prevents the a/c from appearing and disappearing all the time due to momentary signal loss.

We have what are called "coasting" targets... They are there for 3 or 4 sweeps on an extrapolated basis from the last calculated track/gs. Then on the newer systems, we have what is called on the Eurocat X system, a 'flight plan track'. This is a psuedo track generated according to the flight plan route, aircraft preformance in our database, and winds aloft. We keep this up to date by using pilot reports and estimates. Its very accurate, not like radar, but is still a good situational awareness tool. So if a transponder fails (or SSR antenna for that matter), you don't lose all situational awareness.

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 215):
Back in the "day" primary radar was used for ATC in local areas - to day it is rarely used.


Not at all. It is hugely prevalent (if not mandatory) still (at least here in Europe), however as I wrote in one of these threads, it is digitised data and is presented to us not entirely unlike a SSR target, just no altitude and squawk. The days of green or orange blobs are firmly consigned to history. All centres I have worked with in the last 3 countries all have PSR/MSSR/ModeS/MLAT covering terminal areas...
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:04 pm

In an earlier thread (perhaps #8?), I wondered why the search was focussed on the Gulf of Thailand and the Straits of Malacca, but was omitting the mountains of peninsular Malaysia and southern Thailand- land that must have been crossed if MH370 flew from its last known point across off the coast of West Malaysia.

I thought previously that this must be a serious omission of a logical possibility.

It has now been justified in terms of 'there are things I can tell you and things I cannot tell you'.

That suggests that there is undisclosed information about some kind of "activity" in the Straits of Malacca, rather than idle speculation that perhaps the plane may have changed course.

My guess (and that is all that it is) is that more will come from this line of investigation.
 
marktci
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:06 pm

Re-posting from after the last thread was locked:

Having read through most of the ten pages, I am going to wade in with my (admittedly amateur) thoughts.

To me, it seems like there are two possible scenarios:

1) A hijacking type of incident in which the systems which would otherwise transmit information from the plane were disabled. I don't see the plane having landed safely anywhere (surely every satellite possible would be looking for a 777 where it doesn't belong) and thus has crashed somewhere, possibly some significant amount of time after its last known location.

2) A catastrophic system failure affecting the ability to fly the plane, to communicate (both actively and passively), and possibly to breathe. The plane flies for some distance (either on its own or with some limited inputs) before crashing.

I don't know enough of the technical details to talk about how either would have happened. To me these just seem like the most likely scenarios taking into account what little we know at this point.
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Thread starter):

Just wanted to say, thank you for the summary...as interested as I am, it's difficult to go through 2,000+ posts to get an idea on the current status of the search.

It would be wonderful if a miracle happens and all are found alive and well, but it's almost certain that that will not happen...may the passengers and crew rest in peace  
ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
 
DUSdude
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:09 pm

Quoting samair (Reply 4):
I don't understand why the authorities are still looking for wreckage, they are assuming that the aircraft has broken up (it's never good to assume anything). Based on previous 2 major 777 crashes where the fuselage has remained almost intact. Could it be possible that with a very experienced pilot the aircraft has had a very successful landing but unfortunately sank before people could evacuate?

My previous post at the end of the previous thread was apparently ignored...

The previous two 777 incidents were low speed crash landings at a speed below stall speed on final approach at a flat angle. Just about any aircraft type should look largely visually intact in such a scenario. The present disappearance may or may not turn out to be similar depending on the speed at which MH 370 impacted whatever it turns out to have impacted and at what angle. In either case, whatever remains of the aircraft, recognizable or not, would be properly referred to as "wreckage" since it is most certainly going to be a total hull loss.
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:10 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 1):
If you also account for flying low (to avoid primary radars), you'll end up with a radius of 1500 nm (at least I've read that in one of the previous posts).

That was an estimate based on no factual data, and stated as such.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:11 pm

Quoting samair (Reply 4):
I don't understand why the authorities are still looking for wreckage, they are assuming that the aircraft has broken up (it's never good to assume anything). Based on previous 2 major 777 crashes where the fuselage has remained almost intact. Could it be possible that with a very experienced pilot the aircraft has had a very successful landing but unfortunately sank before people could evacuate?

1. That the aircraft has broken up SR111-style (steep angle, high velocity, millions of small debris particles that won't float on water) is still a possibility.
2. No fuselage will remain intact in a real crash.
3. An aircraft still capable to prepare a ditching/water landing is still capable to squawk 7700, call mayday through VHF or HF, or even use the sat phone to talk directly with OPS, announcing the coordinates of the intended ditching.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:13 pm

Looking at improbable scenarios, something came to mind, and I don't know whether this is possible or not (so please tell me).

If (repeat if) this was a hijacking, is it possible to beam false radar signals that say the plane is flying on its normal course (say, across the Gulf of Thailand), when it is in fact flying in a different direction (say, up into the Straits of Malacca)?

If this is possible (and I don't know whether it is), then the search in the Straits of Malacca - but not on land in either Malaysia or Thailand - suddenly makes sense.
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:14 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 10):
That was an estimate based on no factual data, and stated as such.

Thanks, and I now see that KUL-PEK is about 2400 nm, and if the 777 has taken fuel for such a short trip, then the possible range when flying at 1000 ft, avoiding any radar, whould be much, much shorter still.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
rc135x
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:16 pm

Does the 777 autopilot have an "auto level off" function, where the cruise altitude is set during climb and the airplane will automatically level off without pilot intervention?
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liquidair
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:17 pm

If the plane did go down west of the Malacca Strait, the water gets pretty deep.... I'm not sure how it works, but if a plane sinks intact then i think they'll never find anything- unless the same resources are used as they were with AF 447.
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flyingturtle
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:19 pm

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 12):
If (repeat if) this was a hijacking, is it possible to beam false radar signals that say the plane is flying on its normal course (say, across the Gulf of Thailand), when it is in fact flying in a different direction (say, up into the Straits of Malacca)?

There is military technology that can falsify radar returns, but don't ask me about the specifics.

What you describe could be achieved quite simply - find another air crew willing to change the transponder code.

Squawks can be changed quickly - but what about the hex code?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_transponder_interrogation_modes


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
speedbird128
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:21 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 16):
but what about the hex code?

That requires hardware on the ground. It cannot be done in flight.
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nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:23 pm

Quoting rc135x (Reply 14):
Does the 777 autopilot have an "auto level off" function, where the cruise altitude is set during climb and the airplane will automatically level off without pilot intervention?

Never flown anything that big, but my understanding is that it is a standard feature on autopilots. You set a maximum climb rate and you set a target altitude and away you go.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, anyone. I've simply heard of autopilots on less sophisticated planes being used in this way.
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laxboeingman
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:26 pm

Quoting samair (Reply 4):

I don't understand why the authorities are still looking for wreckage, they are assuming that the aircraft has broken up (it's never good to assume anything). Based on previous 2 major 777 crashes where the fuselage has remained almost intact. Could it be possible that with a very experienced pilot the aircraft has had a very successful landing but unfortunately sank before people could evacuate?

I think they are looking for anything that would indicate where the plane is. At this point, no one knows whether the plane is in one piece or in many pieces at the bottom of the ocean. I can imagine that the pressure difference would make it nearly impossible to open an emergency exit when the plane is fully submerged.

I am sorry for asking this, but I missed it. The oil slicks have been determined not to have been from the 777. What were they from then?
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CALTECH
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:27 pm

Quoting gatechae (Reply 226):
If the plane did in fact crash into the gulf of Thailand at a high rate of speed, wouldn't the relatively narrow depth (average depth at 80m, with a 777 length being 64m) cause it to break up upon impact with the sea floor (allowing debris to float to the surface)?

Not known what speed or what angle the 777 entered the sea. Could miss the sea floor altogether. All speculation until the FDR and CVR are recovered. Just seems odd that there is no large debris field, would think that points to the fuselage somewhat surviving impact. The fuselage is where almost all of your floating debris would come from. Macabre, but there should be magazines, clothes and bodies and such floating everywhere if the fuselage took major damage.

Remember AF 447, who would have thought that it had hit the sea relatively level with a little bit of forward speed and a lot of vertical speed, which shattered the aircraft. Took forever to find that aircraft. The sea is shallower in this tragedy, might be found quicker.
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PRFlyer
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:28 pm

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 19):
I am sorry for asking this, but I missed it. The oil slicks have been determined not to have been from the 777. What were they from then?

Laboratory analysis confirms that it is bunker oil from a ship.
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:30 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 20):
Just seems odd that there is no large debris field, would think that points to the fuselage somewhat surviving impact. The fuselage is where almost all of your floating debris would come from. Macabre, but there should be magazines, clothes and bodies and such floating everywhere if the fuselage took major damage.

I agree with that 100 percent and that is partially, almost entirely, why I believe the plane may be intact, but resting at the bottom of the ocean. I know that sounds crazy. If that were the case, however, how long would it take for water to engulf the cabin?
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laxboeingman
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:31 pm

Quoting PRFlyer (Reply 21):
Laboratory analysis confirms that it is bunker oil from a ship.

Thank you.

Does the lack of fuel in the ocean mean that the fuel tanks held up? If so, does that mean the wings are not damaged?
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nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:32 pm

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 19):
I can imagine that the pressure difference would make it nearly impossible to open an emergency exit when the plane is fully submerged.

If the outflow valves were closed, the pressure would make it easier to open than normal... If those systems were working normally, the pressure would have normalized and it would be like opening a car door (underwater - nearly impossible). It's my understanding that aircraft have pressurized canisters on the emergency exits that, when "armed", force the door open and inflate the slide.

Realistically if you were in a laden 777 that hit water and managed to survive, you'd be exiting through a hole in the fuselage.

[Edited 2014-03-10 15:34:50]
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nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:33 pm

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 23):

Does the lack of fuel in the ocean mean that the fuel tanks held up? If so, does that mean the wings are not damaged?

No one knows. They haven't found the wreckage. Jet-A1 would disperse and evaporate quickly in that environment.
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Web500sjc
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 18):
Never flown anything that big, but my understanding is that it is a standard feature on autopilots. You set a maximum climb rate and you set a target altitude and away you go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Learjet_crash

This is what that sort of crash looks like.

Lear jet set to climb to up, and then all aboard became unconscious. Crashed after fuel exhaustion.
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nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:36 pm

Quoting Web500sjc (Reply 26):

Yeah. Here's another that made use of that AP system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Airlines_Flight_3701
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:38 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 25):
No one knows. They haven't found the wreckage. Jet-A1 would disperse and evaporate quickly in that environment.

I forgot about the evaporation factor. Thanks. If the wings were destroyed or sliced, would the pieces float or would they stay submerged, if there was no fuel in the tanks?
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aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:39 pm

What do you all think of these as premises:

1) Assuming the pilots were not incapacitated (e.g. hypoxia), there has to be a amount of time (e.g. 20 minutes) after a serious event by which point it is a near certainty that the pilots will have tried to contact ATC / declare an emergency. In other words, we all understand aviate, navigate, communicate... but the chances that a serious event occurs and the pilots proceed to aviate for, say, 20 minutes without attempting any communication seems vanishingly small. Granted everything we are hypothesizing has a vanishingly small chance of happening, but is that a reasonable premise?

2) Any failure that would result in a failure of the transponder and a failure of all communication abilities would be catastrophic. The longest a plane could stay aloft after that would be its glide time. At FL 350 at cruise speed, I have read this would be about 20 minutes. Give or take.

So....

I realize there are some unstated assumptions there (and feel to criticize them if they are defeat any value to this exercise), but between Premises 1 and 2, doesn't it stand to reason that the plane either went down within a 20-minute flying radius (at relatively slow airspeed) of where contact was loss OR something nefarious has happened?
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:43 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 24):
Realistically if you were in a laden 777 that hit water and managed to survive, you'd be exiting through a hole in the fuselage.

Thank you for that response as well. I did not know the exit doors are equipped to be opened in any environment. But that is just my point, if there was no damage. If there was no damage, they would have to exit through the emergency exits, right?

What is the likelihood that anyone survived the impact, if the plane - at least the cabin - stayed intact? Eventually, though, they would run out of oxygen, which could kill them if they are not found. At the same time, though, if the accident was not hard enough to kill people on impact, then the emergency transmitter would have, presumably, gone off. I know we do not know, but I am just thinking out loud.
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marktci
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:43 pm

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 29):
I realize there are some unstated assumptions there (and feel to criticize them if they are defeat any value to this exercise), but between Premises 1 and 2, doesn't it stand to reason that the plane either went down within a 20-minute flying radius (at relatively slow airspeed) of where contact was loss OR something nefarious has happened?

This is pretty much in line with my thinking from reply #7.
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:45 pm

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 29):
In other words, we all understand aviate, navigate, communicate... but the chances that a serious event occurs and the pilots proceed to aviate for, say, 20 minutes without attempting any communication seems vanishingly small.

That is why I believe something very, very bad happened very quickly in the air, because there was no time to communicate. I think a captain with that much experience would have communicated had he had the opportunity.
The opinions I post are mine and not of any organization I am affiliated with.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 28):
If the wings were destroyed or sliced, would the pieces float or would they stay submerged, if there was no fuel in the tanks?

I wouldn't know about that. I know they are denser than water so they would sink. Way way way earlier in the threads, someone commented about how the vertical stab from AF447 floated only because it broke off luckily enough that it preserved a water-tight pocket of air in the negative space inside it. I doubt such a thing could occur when a wing breaks off, since I imagine any negative space would be used for fuel. I am only a private pilot ... I don't know.
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 29):
Premises 1 and 2, doesn't it stand to reason that the plane either went down within a 20-minute flying radius (at relatively slow airspeed) of where contact was loss OR something nefarious has happened?

Yes.

And the fact that no traces of wreckage have been found in the highly populated area (fishing boats, sea vessels, etc), combined with the vague official announcements about searching in the Straits of Malacca, are what led me to suggest a completely different line of thinking:

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 12):
If (repeat if) this was a hijacking, is it possible to beam false radar signals that say the plane is flying on its normal course (say, across the Gulf of Thailand), when it is in fact flying in a different direction (say, up into the Straits of Malacca)?

If this is possible (and I don't know whether it is), then the search in the Straits of Malacca - but not on land in either Malaysia or Thailand - suddenly makes sense.

From earlier replies, I gather this is possible if there is some interference by folk on the ground, which would suggest something quite sophisticated.
 
Hywel
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:47 pm

I've not seen mention of this yet:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/lap-joints-focus-of-new-boeing-777-directive-faa-374597/

Quote:

The US Federal Aviation Administration on 23 July will publish a final airworthiness directive (AD) requiring US operators of approximately 46 Boeing 777-200 and -300 series widebodies to perform repetitive inspections for cracks in the fuselage skin lap splices at several locations on the aircraft.

The AD resulted from reports of fatigue cracks in certain lap joints and inspection are directed at Sections 41, 43 and 44 of the aircraft, says the FAA, noting that Boeing issued a service bulletin to address the potential problem in November 2011.

Cracks were found to have started at scribe lines that were made during production "when maskant was removed from the affected skin panels during the chemical milling process," says the FAA.

"We are issuing this AD to detect and correct such fatigue cracking, which could grow large and cause sudden decompression and the inability to sustain limit flight and pressure loads."

The final AD calls for performing initial and repetitive inspections using external phased-array ultrasonic devices, though Boeing and the FAA have not stated publicly when the initial inspection must be completed. The FAA does say however that damaged joints must be repaired before further flights and inspections on the joints must be performed at least every 4,200 flight cycles thereafter. The directive was first published as a proposed AD in February.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 30):
I did not know the exit doors are equipped to be opened in any environment.

Oh, gosh, I didn't say *that*. I just mean that they have canisters that force open the doors, and at least on some types they are MEL items. If you were at equal pressure underwater I doubt they would help much.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
Gasman
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:49 pm

Perhaps something of a 'layman" question, but how is it, in 2014, that we don't know the exact whereabouts of all heavy commercial aircraft in flight?? It's not rocket science to be streaming GPS data to ground stations etc.... whatever exact method might be chosen, surely it's neither insurmountingly difficult or expensive.
 
laxboeingman
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:51 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 36):
Oh, gosh, I didn't say *that*. I just mean that they have canisters that force open the doors, and at least on some types they are MEL items. If you were at equal pressure underwater I doubt they would help much.

Sorry about that. I thought that the canisters would allow it to meet the pressure requirements to open.
The opinions I post are mine and not of any organization I am affiliated with.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 37):
Perhaps something of a 'layman" question, but how is it, in 2014, that we don't know the exact whereabouts of all heavy commercial aircraft in flight?? It's not rocket science to be streaming GPS data to ground stations etc.... whatever exact method might be chosen, surely it's neither insurmountingly difficult or expensive.

The system you describe exists, it is called ADS-B, and was used on this flight. It is how websites like FlightAware and FlightRadar24 get their data. And it's not only read by ground stations, satellites can monitor it too.

It is quite literally rocket science, though, as long as you are willing to call "aerospace" rocket science.

It is actually quite expensive.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:55 pm

Here is a possible scenario: imagine the two people with false passports were terrorists. When the captain or co-pilot got up to go to the toilet, they rushed him and managed to break into the cockpit. They then killed both pilots, switched off the transponder and turned the plane around in the direction of their intended target (Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, or some other city). At this point the passengers, having seen what had happened, would not just sit back and relax but rather try to get together and take back control. They ram the cockpit door, at which point the hijackers crash the plane into the sea (which couch have been over the Indian Ocean or the Pacific by this time).
 
otf
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:56 pm

Perhaps there was an explosion at the front of the plane, severing the cockpit & the rest of the fuselage.
That would explain the sudden loss of all electronics, if these two pieces came down roughly intact I'm sure it wouldn't take long for them to sink to the bottom of the sea.
All the passengers would have been incapacitated well before the fuselage hit the water so no chance of survival, for all we know they could still be strapped into their seats sat on the seabed?
I'm not sure what could have caused the explosion, or even if it was an explosion.
I know the 777 has a fantastic safety record but do we know much about Malaysia Airlines' maintenance records, any previous incidents to do with say metal fatigue?

Apologies, I'm only hypothesizing and I'm relatively new to aviation so I'm sure that idea will sound stupid to some of you.
 
747megatop
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:56 pm

Quoting marktci (Reply 7):
urely every satellite possible would be looking for a 777 where it doesn't belong)

China has redeployed 10 military satellites to aid in the search

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/artic...ites-deployed-search-missing-plane
 
tyler81190
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 pm

in reference to swapping "squawk" codes, let's just say that this was a terrorist attack of some kind... They had 1-2 years to plan, and put a lot of people on payroll, in place to accomplish many of these things. Also, a news report is saying that families calling cell phones of those onboard are ringing, some say they have connected then hung up.

Is it impossible for this to be a severely elaborate plan that cause the disappearance of this flight?

If the reports of the cell phones ringing are true, and I will try to find the article in a moment, that means a few things:

1. the phones are on
2. they are un-damaged
3. they are holding a charge
4. they have some kind of connectivity

thoughts?
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:00 pm

Quoting OTF (Reply 41):

Perhaps there was an explosion at the front of the plane, severing the cockpit & the rest of the fuselage.
That would explain the sudden loss of all electronics, if these two pieces came down roughly intact I'm sure it wouldn't take long for them to sink to the bottom of the sea.

They would hit the ground at terminal velocity, from the flight levels at least. Pieces of the cabin would break away, and float.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
otf
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:03 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 44):
They would hit the ground at terminal velocity, from the flight levels at least. Pieces of the cabin would break away, and float.

Good point, perhaps I was overthinking.
I've been reading this thread since the start so it's been a little bit of an information overload for a rookie like myself!
 
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cjg225
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:04 pm

This becomes more disconcerting with each day that passes. It should be light soon there. We'll be entering the 4th day with not a single shred of evidence for anything beyond an alleged course change caught on radar.

Even with AF 447 there was more than this after the same period of time.

How does this happen in 2014?

I haven't been able to read much because of work today, but I take it not much more has developed by reading the summaries at the starts of the last 3 topics.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:04 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 43):

Is it impossible for this to be a severely elaborate plan that cause the disappearance of this flight?

No, but what's the motive?

The cell phone thing has been thoroughly debunked in previous posts. You get a dial tone when the last known location of the phone was non-local. Has to go over a "trunk line", so to speak using ancient terminology. Myself and many others have experienced this. You'll get a dial tone while you wait for the network to attempt to connect. Obviously, as the phone is in the drink, it will fail.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
tyler81190
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:04 pm

http://www.news24.com/Travel/Flights...s-ring-but-no-one-answers-20140310

passengers phones are ringing... Interesting story. Perhaps something nefarious is happening?
 
liquidair
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:04 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 43):

unlikely. If they had connectivity the authorities would take ten minutes to locate them.
trying to stop my gaseous viscosity go liquid