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SA7700
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:02 pm

Due to length part 20 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 21.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome.


PLEASE KEEP IN MIND:


**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; could we please keep science fiction theories and content related to possible future movie rights out of these threads? ****

**** Please do not repeat questions and scenarios that were covered and discussed in previous threads and which do not contribute in a constructive manner towards the real topic any longer. ****

**** Please make an effort to read through some of the threads, if possible the latest in the series, before adding your own comments and theories to the current, active thread on this issue. ****

**** Once again please be respectful towards other users and keep the forum rules and regulations in mind when posting in the forums. Should there be any rule violations, please bring this to the attention of the moderators by making use of the “suggest deletion function”. ****



Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
456
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:07 pm

Also the moderators stopped posting the latest facts in the openings post anymore, afraid that they are changing during the time the thread is open?
 
 
laxboeingman
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:07 pm

I asked this in the previous thread, but I will repost:

I was watching CNN and thought of this question. I apologize if it has been asked before, but I do not think this exact one was asked before. What if all of the communications and satellite equipment just died - due to mechanical issues - and the pilots got turned around to the point where they were running out of fuel and tried to land safely in the water, but failed to do it safely?
The opinions I post are mine and not of any organization I am affiliated with.
 
BruceSmith
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:07 pm

Quoting BoeingBear (Reply 244):
Okay, my hat's off to you -- this is actually one of the best creative-but-not-outrageous theories I've seen in the twenty MH370 threads to date (which is an accomplishment!). But I'm pretty sure each radio stack is on a separate bus. Otherwise, that kind of kills the whole idea of system redundancy. Moreover, the idea of asphyxiation due to smoke inhalation goes in the same bucket with hypoxia -- the crew are trained for it and would instantly reach for their oxygen masks. But you do get points for a well-thought-out chain of events ... nice!

Thanks, I know it is somewhat out there, but not as far out there as some. And with no knowledge of the redundancy of the power buses and radio stacks, one has to guess.

Regarding the asphyxiation, MS 667's fire involved the hoses to the F/O's oxygen mask. They are rubber hoses and can burn through.
 
laxboeingman
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting 456 (Reply 1):
Also the moderators stopped posting the latest facts in the openings post anymore, afraid that they are changing during the time the thread is open?

Probably because they are not chaining, unfortunately.
The opinions I post are mine and not of any organization I am affiliated with.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:13 pm

Quoting Trin (Reply 246):
The one thing I find unbearable is the thought that there could still be some survivors out there clinging to life rafts, just waiting to be found

If the airplane did ditch it probably would have been found by now as slide/rafts come with survival equipment which includes an ELT if the airline will be engaged in long over water flights.
 
IADCA
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:15 pm

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 266):


Quoting deconz (Reply 248):
I suggest you check your facts before commenting my friend. The flight departed KUL at 00:41 on the morning of Saturday 08 March!

That's all I'm asking. By what facts are you basing this from?

I posted four links from four different sources, including the airline itself, stating that the flight and disappearance were on March 8. Read Reply 247 in the last thread.

Here is the original MH press release on the incident: The source for this is http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html - then go to the earliest page at the bottom (at the moment, page 17).

"Saturday, March 08, 07:30 AM MYT +0800 Media Statement - MH370 Incident released at 7.24am

Sepang, 8 March 2014: Malaysia Airlines confirms that flight MH370 has lost contact with Subang Air Traffic Control at 2.40am, today (8 March 2014).

Flight MH370, operated on the B777-200 aircraft, departed Kuala Lumpur at 12.41am on 8 March 2014. MH370 was expected to land in Beijing at 6.30am the same day. The flight was carrying a total number of 227 passengers (including 2 infants), 12 crew members.

Malaysia Airlines is currently working with the authorities who have activated their Search and Rescue team to locate the aircraft.

The airline will provide regular updates on the situation. Meanwhile, the families may contact +603 7884 1234 for further info."

I'm trying to be polite, but this is an absolutely insane point you're trying to make. You're wrong to assert the flight took place on any date other than March 8. At that time, it was still March 7 in much of the world because of time zones, but it was the March 8 flight in Malaysia.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:17 pm

Here is a video of primary radar display. If you are watching real time you will see the blip(target) moving. Same with replays. Based on the signature(blip size, how fast it is moving) experts can tell what kind of aircraft it is with relative confidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp4CyShpjpI

CNN just got delivery of Malaysia 777 model, transponder and Data Recorder. Things are heating up.
 
456
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:19 pm

Quoting IADCA (Reply 6):
I posted four links from four different sources, including the airline itself, stating that the flight and disappearance were on March 8. Read Reply 247 in the last thread.

You can also refer to the very very very first post in thread number 1 of this topic
MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:20 pm

Transferred from previous thread:


Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 222):
10 bucks says Malaysia did not come up with this detailed list

And your evidence for this is what? The US Navy has stated that it deployed USS Kidd to a specific area of the Malacca Straits "at the request of the Malaysian authorities".

Quoting Trin (Reply 226):
And still news sources fail to understand pings from ACARS messages and the like.

   SATCOM pings are not ACARS data.

Quoting captainx (Reply 242):
Networks "ping" and radars have "blips" or "returns."
  


But, assuming that the reports of SATCOM pings continuing but ACARS data not being transmitted are accurate, this suggests that ACARS was somehow disabled (by a person or a failure) in some way other than by disabling SATCOM - interesting!

Question (for Mandala499) - are SATCOM pings transmissible through water (for example if the aircraft was submerged in shallow water)?
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
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IslandRob
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:21 pm

Andy Pasztor of the Wall Street Journal now reporting that US officials are now exploring the possibility that MH370 in fact landed somewhere rather than crashing. This has always been a point of speculation, but it appears the US Govt is now taking it more seriously.
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aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:21 pm

Jay Carney paused and seemingly chose his words very carefully with regard to characterizing the pax. See at 1:10 mark. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...8051b8b52d06_story.html?tid=pm_pop

Full-blown speculation mode here but it was almost as if he knew something about the pax' fate and had to pull himself back from revealing it unintentionally.

Or I need some sleep. In all events, I'm fully aware this well could be nothing. But circumstantial evidence is mounting that officials know significantly more than they are sharing.
 
nm2582
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:22 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 7):
CNN just got delivery of Malaysia 777 model, transponder and Data Recorder. Things are heating up.

Are you saying that CNN just came into the possession of a FDR and CVR which are believed to be from a 777 owned by Malaysian Airlines? Source??
 
345tas
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:24 pm

US officials believe ACARS was shut down ten minutes before the transponder.

"Two U.S. officials tell ABC News the U.S. believes that the shutdown of two communication systems happened separately on Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. One source said this indicates the plane did not come out of the sky because of a catastrophic failure."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...hed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802

If it weren't for US leaks (assuming they are correct), what would we know?

[Edited 2014-03-13 15:24:45]
 
KIAS
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:25 pm

Quote:
"Information has come to light that may indicate that there's a possibility ... that there was some sort of decompression of the oxygen system on the aircraft, incapacitating not only the crew, but the passengers, and the plane continued to fly for several hours," said Hall. http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03...ave-flown-long-after-last-contact/


I personally do not subscribe to the hijiacking theories. I think we will learn this was a catastrophic event which may have also involved the electrical systems.
"We fly, but we have not 'conquered' the air. When we presume mastery, we are often startled by our ignorance." - DHW
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 12):
Are you saying that CNN just came into the possession of a FDR and CVR which are believed to be from a 777 owned by Malaysian Airlines? Source??

I think he was talking about props.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
gosimeon
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:25 pm

ABC News reporting that communication systems did not all shut down at once, which apparently can lead the US military to believe this wasn't a catastrophic incident:

"Two U.S. officials tell ABC News the U.S. believes that the shutdown of two communication systems happened separately on Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. One source said this indicates the plane did not come out of the sky because of a catastrophic failure.

The data reporting system, they believe, was shut down 1:07 a.m. The transponder -- which transmits location and altitude -- shut down at 1:21 a.m."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...hed-indian-ocean/story?id=22894802

Man I hope they find the plane tonight/tomorrow. This is all very baffling...
 
FltAdmiralRitt
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:26 pm

If there were survivors they are not on a life raft from the A/C
they would be on pieces of the aircraft, but we are nearing the end of
possible survivors from that scenario.

The scenario would involve at ditch and break up and thereafter the big sections of the A/C
sinking to the bottom pretty fast. I wont go into details for obvious reasons.
 
B747forever
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting gosimeon (Reply 16):
The data reporting system, they believe, was shut down 1:07 a.m. The transponder -- which transmits location and altitude -- shut down at 1:21 a.m."

Why would the shut down of the two systems be separated by more than 10 minutes?
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 9):
But, assuming that the reports of SATCOM pings continuing but ACARS data not being transmitted are accurate, this suggests that ACARS was somehow disabled (by a person or a failure) in some way other than by disabling SATCOM - interesting!

Plus it has been mentioned earlier that the CBs for SATCOM are not on the flight deck but in the EE bay.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
456
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:30 pm

I do see something repetative is going on:
The last 3 days, all 'new' information is coming during nighttime/sunset in malaysia. Where I would expect new facts during daylight of malaysia.
To be honest, i have to see what is true about the latest abc news...
 
jcxroberts
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:31 pm

So where would they have landed, if they did ?
 
cuban8
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:33 pm

Based on the information we have received and if the information about the aircraft flying for another 4 hours after disappearance is true; there is only one option left and that is hi-jacking either by passenger or crew. Looking at the search area of Malaysia, US and India, it seems to be supporting the fact that the aircraft actually flew for quite some more time after last contact.

You can exclude the other options quite easily according to me.
- A flight would never last 4 hours with a serious malfunction without being able to recover, land at nearest airport or notify ATC.
- Being shot down, abducted or hit by an UFO doesn't seem plausible either since no wreckage found in the area where lost (and of course we assume they flew for another few hours).
- Suicide I think is highly unlikely. Why fly for another 4 hours to commit suicide? Why turn off the transponder?
- Piracy is not likely either. Where would they go/land and how would they hide such a big aircraft and for what reason? (On top of that, no phone calls or messages has been sent from passengers and no demands from the "pirates" so far).

This is what leads me to believe this was a hi-jacking gone wrong. While the hi-jacker(s) might be either of the flight crew; it doesn't take too much time to learn what communication systems an aircraft have or what actions would be taken by a flight-crew in case of a hi-jacking. The person may even have been invited to the flight deck.

For sure time will tell, but I do believe that some information is withheld from the public which just fuels the speculation in media and among the public for no reason....

[Edited 2014-03-13 15:39:47]
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RightRudder
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:36 pm

This is what I have on the scheduled departure date 2:51AM MYT 7MAR14. Just sayin... http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA

Quoting IADCA (Reply 6):

I posted four links from four different sources, including the airline itself, stating that the flight and disappearance were on March 8. Read Reply 247 in the last thread.

Here is the original MH press release on the incident: The source for this is http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html - then go to the earliest page at the bottom (at the moment, page 17).

"Saturday, March 08, 07:30 AM MYT 0800 Media Statement - MH370 Incident released at 7.24am

Sepang, 8 March 2014: Malaysia Airlines confirms that flight MH370 has lost contact with Subang Air Traffic Control at 2.40am, today (8 March 2014). BTW, that link does not state anything else than when they retired the flight number.

Flight MH370, operated on the B777-200 aircraft, departed Kuala Lumpur at 12.41am on 8 March 2014. MH370 was expected to land in Beijing at 6.30am the same day. The flight was carrying a total number of 227 passengers (including 2 infants), 12 crew members.

Malaysia Airlines is currently working with the authorities who have activated their Search and Rescue team to locate the aircraft.

The airline will provide regular updates on the situation. Meanwhile, the families may contact 603 7884 1234 for further info."

I'm trying to be polite, but this is an absolutely insane point you're trying to make. You're wrong to assert the flight took place on any date other than March 8. At that time, it was still March 7 in much of the world because of time zones, but it was the March 8 flight in Malaysia.

March 8th by what time zone? Malaysian time or another zone? Flight Awares indicates otherwise. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA Departure date is set by departure origin. BTW, that link does not indicate anything else than that MH370 will be retired to MH318.

[Edited 2014-03-13 15:38:43]
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hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:37 pm

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 22):
I do believe that some information is withheld from the public which just fuels the speculation in media and among the public for no reason....

If it's a possible security/terrorist issue the authorities have a very good reason.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
B747forever
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:38 pm

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 22):
- Suicide I think is highly unlikely. Why fly for another 4 hours to commit suicide? Why turn off the transponder?

Because you want to make sure so that the wreckage is never found.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:39 pm

US govt operative overtook flight and it is now sitting ai Diego Garcia. Reason being high level terrorist on board who is detained for information.
May as well add this, just to be another option...  
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
nm2582
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:39 pm

Based on some of the recent reports that the satellite communication (which took place for a few hours) from MH370 contained no actual data but was rather just a "handshake" so to speak, it's entirely possible that both the Malaysian authorities and the WSJ/US report are true.

The Malaysian folks did not get any actual engine/aircraft data - this much is true, as none was apparently sent.

The US / satellite folks who manage the system may have saw a connection from the aircraft by analyzing logs or telemetry from the satellite(s).

It's kind of like one of those creepy phone calls where nobody is on the other end of the line. You have a connection, but nothing was communicated.
 
aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:39 pm

Quoting FltAdmiralRitt (Reply 17):
The data reporting system, they believe, was shut down 1:07 a.m. The transponder -- which transmits location and altitude -- shut down at 1:21 a.m."

What time was "all right good night" and what sort of warning does flight deck get if ACARS fails?
 
IADCA
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:41 pm

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 23):

March 8th by what time zone? Malaysian time or another zone? Flight Awares indicates otherwise. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA Departure date is set by departure origin.

You've got to be kidding. Malaysian time. The time zone in KUL is UTC plus 8.

As for your flightaware link, you linked to the wrong day. Look at 3/8, the one above it in the list. Notice the italics for the landing time, and a question mark for it? That's because the flight never arrived. Notice the flight track for that one? Here: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140307/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA

The flight you linked to, 3/7, has a non-italicized and non-question marked arrival in Beijing because the system verified arrival.

Also, regarding the press release link, here is the link: http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/dark-site.html

DON'T READ THE MOST RECENT ONE. CLICK THE NUMBER 17 AT THE BOTTOM; SINCE YOU SEEM TO HAVE MISSED THAT INSTRUCTION, I AM NOW PUTTING IT IN ALL CAPS. READ THAT PRESS RELEASE. IT SAYS, AND I HAVE COPY-PASTED IT HERE FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE:

"Saturday, March 08, 07:30 AM MYT +0800 Media Statement - MH370 Incident released at 7.24am

Sepang, 8 March 2014: Malaysia Airlines confirms that flight MH370 has lost contact with Subang Air Traffic Control at 2.40am, today (8 March 2014).

Flight MH370, operated on the B777-200 aircraft, departed Kuala Lumpur at 12.41am on 8 March 2014. MH370 was expected to land in Beijing at 6.30am the same day. The flight was carrying a total number of 227 passengers (including 2 infants), 12 crew members.

Malaysia Airlines is currently working with the authorities who have activated their Search and Rescue team to locate the aircraft.

The airline will provide regular updates on the situation. Meanwhile, the families may contact +603 7884 1234 for further info."

And the original release I pointed you to does just fine as well. It says: As a mark of respect to the passengers and crew of MH370 on 8 March 2014, the MH370 and MH371 flight codes will be retired from the Malaysia Airlines’ Kuala Lumpur- Beijing-Kuala Lumpur route.

What other flight do you think they're referring to besides the one that disappeared?

Also, you're seriously using a notoriously error-prone secondary source regarding flight tracking over the airline's own description of its flight departure time and loss of contact? Are you freaking kidding me?



[Edited 2014-03-13 15:46:06]
 
deconz
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:43 pm

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 23):
March 8th by what time zone? Malaysian time or another zone? Flight Awares indicates otherwise. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA Departure date is set by departure origin.

Malaysian of course. That link is to the MH370 the day prior ... that's why it says "landed"!!!
 
rcair1
Crew
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:43 pm

New Sanity Check.

A slight update to the sanity check I did in thread 16. Been trying to do this for 12 hrs - I can't keep up with the rumors,
The facts have not changed much.
Stuff that has changed is marked with * and italic

I'm going to try to list what we know, not what we think - we being the public. And sadly it is very short.

- The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing
- The last comms were a normal handoff from Malaysia to Vietnam control.
- It was a normal 'good night' on the Malaysian side, but Vietnam was not contacted.
- The aircraft dropped off secondary radar with no communication from the cockpit.
- There are some reports of a descent and turn - based on primary radar.
- But there is confusion about the veracity of that.
- There is some confusion (in the press) about if the descent was 3000ft or to 3000ft
* Update: I think we have concluded it was descent by 3000ft, the a/c remained at or near 29,500 feet.
- There was a primary radar return tracked west over the Malacca straits.
- Since it is primarily - a reflection - we do not know that it is the accident a/c.
- We do not know if it was a track (multiple returns) or a few points returns.
- We have no ELT signal detected.

* Update:
* ACARS: 2 ACARS messages were sent to Rolls Royce - both before the LOS (loss of signal) event. None after that.

* SATCOM Pings: There are (unconfirmed?) reports that the a/c SATCOM continued to send network interrogations (pings) for some hours after the LOS.
* These pings are simply short signals from the a/c to the satellites that are a sort of "I'm here" signal. No data was sent.
* This IS Significant, if it is true because that means the a/c was in flight and that comms were NOT disable.
* However, these pings provide no location, direction or any other kind of info - simply a 'ping' sent to the satellite.
* There is confusion about these pings being primary radar returns - that is not correct - they are communication signals.

Airworthiness Directive
* The airworthiness directive about the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.
* The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna


Based on this information - authorities are searching 2 areas - near the planned route and in the Malacca straight.
* In addition - there may be some extension to the Indian Ocean.
* This makes sense if the primary radar returns in the Malacca Straight were MH370 and it was heading west at altitude.
* The fact that we have found nothing in the most likely areas drives expansion based on either new data or less reliable data.

- Frankly - this is quite reasonable. You search where you have evidence the a/c may be.

There are lots of conspiracy theories out there - from the Malaysian government hiding something to pilot suicide, to hijacking to whatever.
- We have no data to support any of them.
- The breadth of the countries searching alone makes me discount many of the 'government is hiding it' aspects
- It is likely there are covert (secret) resources in the area that are trying to provide the info without revealing themselves.

We have lots of complaints about incompetence.
- I've been in and in command of large emergencies and been the one responsible to communicate to large groups.
- Even in the best situations, with cooperating agencies - it is easy to portray incompetence when what is really going on is hard work that is not providing the desired result.
* Complaints continue and will despite what any authority does till something happens.

Mobile phones
- We know that if any mobile phones were connected to the tower - we would have a location and would search there.
- We don't have any reports or evidence of that - so I conclude that it is not viable to consider.

We have had a lot of "false" sightings
- This is common and we need to investigate the credible ones. Most will be false.
- The Chinese Satellite data has not resulted in any findings.

----------------------
In summary
We KNOW 4 things.
- The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.
- There is some evidence that it traveled west. But that evidence is not conclusive or sure.
- We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.
* We have a better idea were it is NOT

That is all.
(Perhaps somebody can do an Insanity Check - all the wild theories have been discussed, proven or not).

[Edited 2014-03-13 15:46:08]

[Edited 2014-03-13 15:46:33]
rcair1
 
KIAS
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:25 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:43 pm

9M-MRO is a modern aircraft, but one with a lot of use. 53,465 hours & 7525 cycles. Taking a good look at the maintenance records is a more logical start than investigating the captain's home flight simulator, as an example.

My speculation is that we're looking at an explosive decompression, something which affected the oxygen systems as well as electrical systems. Similar to the Payne Stewart tragedy, this could involve the aircraft flying for some time, being affected by the wind, which could explain how it got to the Indian Ocean, should that info be credible. In the case of Mr. Stewarts Learjet, pilots acknowledged an ATC transmission and then were not heard from again. The aircraft flew for approx 4 hrs more over 1500 km with all on board having succumbed to hypoxia. Eventually it entered a sharp turn and lost altitude, resulting in a crash.

This is also reminiscent of Helios 522.
"We fly, but we have not 'conquered' the air. When we presume mastery, we are often startled by our ignorance." - DHW
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1446
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting KIAS (Reply 14):
I personally do not subscribe to the hijiacking theories. I think we will learn this was a catastrophic event which may have also involved the electrical systems.

You know I looked at as much passenger info as I could get and I just didn't see it happening. How would the passengers even know how to turn off the various comms devices. I don't see the pilots slamming it into the sea either but its certainly possible.

Is it possible they got signals from under the sea? Somehow off battery power?
 
456
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:20 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:45 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 31):

Awesome. Thanks!
 
katekebo
Posts: 678
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 12:02 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:45 pm

If the shutdown of communication systems (ACARS, transponder, etc.) occurred sequentially over several minutes it could indicate a progressively worsening mechanical / electrical failure. For example, a fire that was taking systems out one at a time. No distress signal could mean that the pilots were too busy trying to keep the airplane in the air to make a distress call, or that the failure took out radio communication early in the process.
 
BruceSmith
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 10:35 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:47 pm

The SATCOM/VHF/HF radios are all discrete avionics blocks and are separate from the avionics blocks generating the message traffic on the radio signals. The radios aren't dumb signal-forward devices, they have intelligent modems that build the digital link over the radio wave. Think the PHY device on a network card or the optical transceiver module in a router or switch. The data messaging level is one step back, you push the message onto the radio's input channel and it encodes it into a modulated analog signal and sends it on over the antenna.

If you disable or fail the block that generates the ACARS messages, or the transponder block, and the SATCOM block remains powered and operational, you would get the situation where the SATCOM keep-alive signals are present, but no data can flow.
 
RightRudder
Posts: 106
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting deconz (Reply 30):
Quoting rightrudder (Reply 23):
March 8th by what time zone? Malaysian time or another zone? Flight Awares indicates otherwise. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/M...0/history/20140306/1635Z/WMKK/ZBAA Departure date is set by departure origin.

Malaysian of course. That link is to the MH370 the day prior ... that's why it says "landed"!!!

I stand corrected. Thank you for the explanation.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
BooDog
Posts: 109
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 1:44 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:48 pm

Tomnod just put out EXACT image locations and all hits with associated pictures in a kmz (Google Earth) file for those who are interested. http://bit.ly/MalayResults14
B1B - best looking aircraft ever.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 2980
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:51 pm

Quoting nm2582 (Reply 12):
Are you saying that CNN just came into the possession of a FDR and CVR which are believed to be from a 777 owned by Malaysian Airlines? Source??

No way, they got hold of some model plane/recorder to enlighten viewers. I may be wrong but the transponder they are showing may be from a Cessna.
 
aftgaffe
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:18 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:51 pm

Quoting katekebo (Reply 35):
If the shutdown of communication systems (ACARS, transponder, etc.) occurred sequentially over several minutes it could indicate a progressively worsening mechanical / electrical failure. For example, a fire that was taking systems out one at a time. No distress signal could mean that the pilots were too busy trying to keep the airplane in the air to make a distress call, or that the failure took out radio communication early in the process.

Provided that the captain's "all right good night" to Malaysian ATC came after ACARS failed. I'm not sure but I thought it came right before the transponder failed. Which would mean:

1) ACARS fails
2) Comms still up but Cap't indicates everything is ok
3) Transponder fails
4) Turn, descend, fly for many hours, or so we are told.
 
IADCA
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:52 pm

Quoting rightrudder (Reply 37):
I stand corrected. Thank you for the explanation.

Reading comprehension is a key skill.
 
RightRudder
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:04 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:54 pm

Quoting IADCA (Reply 41):
Quoting rightrudder (Reply 37):
I stand corrected. Thank you for the explanation.

Reading comprehension is a key skill.

So is prescribing vision glasses.
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana".
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2924
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:57 pm

Quoting katekebo (Reply 35):
If the shutdown of communication systems (ACARS, transponder, etc.) occurred sequentially over several minutes it could indicate a progressively worsening mechanical / electrical failure. For example, a fire that was taking systems out one at a time. No distress signal could mean that the pilots were too busy trying to keep the airplane in the air to make a distress call, or that the failure took out radio communication early in the process.

But that doesn't answer why there was engine information data bursts sent via satellite to Rolls Royce for four or five HOURS after the transponder went silent.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
nm2582
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:15 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:57 pm

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 39):
No way, they got hold of some model plane/recorder to enlighten viewers.

Ok. I thought your statement meant they were CVR/FDR's from the 777 model of aircraft. That would have been an incredible announcement.
 
flyenthu
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:37 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:58 pm

I don't know if this is already posted.... Looks like the two transponders went off separately and not at once, thus indicating not a catastrophic systems failure. This is per ABC nightly news.

Disregard this. See #52.

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:13:45]
 
ROSWELL41
Posts: 754
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2001 3:50 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:00 pm

My guess is that this was a pilot suicide perpetrated by the captain. The loss of the transponder, no distress call and the inability to find any wreckage anywhere near where the aircraft was supposed to be all point to this as a possibility. Egyptair 990, LAM and Silkair all are past examples of this type of scenario. Being almost a week since the airplane vanished, the odds are slim that we will ever truly know what happened to this flight.
 
FltAdmiralRitt
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:57 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:01 pm

Just rewatched the Swissair 111. Accident Investigation.

One thing clearly stands out. A fast impact with the ocean will leave few pieces larger than
your typical floor mat, and no structure of the aircraft will retain airpockets large enough to float.
that leaves Overhead compartments contents and pieces of foam from seats.
 
difrano789
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:29 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:02 pm

Hi all,

After years reading this forum I decided to join, sorry for my spelling English it’s not my mother language.

I have more speculation that have not being discussed, based on that the airplane is not near where it disappeared, SAR procedures from 4 countries cannot miss the plane in 150 ft. of water.

I need answer for these 2 questions:
1 Where are located the flight computers in a 777?
2 If the cockpit gets destroyed the autopilot and the computer can keep the airplane flying?

If the answer is yes to my 2nd question this could mathematically be possible:

Cockpit hit by a very small meteor, destroy the instruments and incapacitate or kill both pilots, no instruments no transponders no comms, the damage is not enough to break the plane and debris so small that impossible to trace on ground, computers still working and able to keep control on surfaces and throttle, due to destruction of the autopilot console the computer may have received any signal, for example heading 280, altitude FL298, and it flew until ran out of fuel somewhere in the world?

Sounds pretty crazy but as an engineer I have seen stuff that only could happen 1 in a trillion happening!

Thanks again
 
456
Posts: 315
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:20 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21

Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:02 pm

Btw- pretty scary to realize that when the plane was missing by the authorities, the plane was still flying somewhere...
(IF the plane has flown for 4 to 5 more hrs (if!))

[Edited 2014-03-13 16:05:45]
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