ASA
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BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:41 pm

We have had quite a few Boston related threads lately ... related to growth of international traffic in Logan, growth of Jetblue as the dominant carrier at BOS, starting DTW right in time for the EK service, starting code-share with TK in view of their upcoming service, new Emirates service and their President's bold remarks, and new renovation/extension project for Terminal E. But all these discussions were quite scattered in nature, as you can see:

Aer Lingus From Boston Logan (by iyerhari Feb 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

BOS Terminal E Renovation (by iyerhari Mar 4 2014 in Civil Aviation)

AA Ends Partnership With JetBlue (by AAplat4life Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Emirates CEO: Boston Needs Bigger Plane (by chrisnh Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

JetBlue - Turkish Airlines Form Codeshare (by LAXintl Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

JetBlue Starts DTW On March 10, 2014 (by MesaFlyGuy Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

If we could consolidate the discussions - and talk about details of the extension project, the ongoing renovation of Terminal B and realignment of airline gates; as well as, how the growth of international carriers and B6 are leading to new services and code-shares as an international gateway (with the Terminal C-E connector), I thought, would be useful. Thanks!  
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:18 pm

Quoting ASA (Thread starter):
We have had quite a few Boston related threads lately ... related to growth of international traffic in Logan, growth of Jetblue as the dominant carrier at BOS, starting DTW right in time for the EK service, starting code-share with TK in view of their upcoming service, new Emirates service and their President's bold remarks, and new renovation/extension project for Terminal E. But all these discussions were quite scattered in nature, as you can see:

When we talk about growth it's important that we present data. Massport.com has data going back to 1999. Pre-9/11 BOS peaked at 23.1M domestic and 4.5M international passengers. that was in the year 2000. It wasn't until 2010 that BOS was back to the pre-9/11 numbers for domestic passengers, hitting 23.7M, and only in 2013 did BOS equal the peak for international passengers at 4.5M.

So in my opinion, it hasn't been so much growth as it has been a recovery. It's easy to say B6 has been responsible for this growth, they certainly contributed to it, but for the most part they simply replaced other carriers and took their passengers. UA, AA, DL, all shrunk at one point or another in the last 13 years. In my opinion, it was WN coming to Boston in 2009? and DL exiting BK in 2007 that really kick-started BOS's recovery and growth.

Only time will tell whether these new international carriers will create growth or simply steal passengers from the incumbent international carriers. I think the latter is the more likely scenario because BOS is extremely constrained in terms of International gates. Now if Massport decides to build an extension to terminal E, we'll certainly see a big spike in international growth.

2013 was a stellar year for BOS, much like 2000. It has taken 13 long years and I can't wait to see what the next few years will bring us  
 
jfk777
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:33 pm

JAL arrived a few years ago, Hainin Air has to. Emirates is coming in September. Boston is diversfying its European heavy international destination portfolio. Latin America is lacking, Copa from Panama has arrived. Boston to Sao Paulo would be a good as just about every hub east of the rockies has a nonstop to GRU.
 
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:47 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):

JAL arrived a few years ago, Hainin Air has to. Emirates is coming in September. Boston is diversfying its European heavy international destination portfolio. Latin America is lacking, Copa from Panama has arrived. Boston to Sao Paulo would be a good as just about every hub east of the rockies has a nonstop to GRU.

??!! too much Nyquil ??!! 

Emirates (DXB-BOS on 77L) started earlier this week (Mar 10)
Turkish (IST-BOS on 333) is starting May 10, daily from June
Hainan (PEK-BOS on 788)is starting 4w in late June ...

nonstop to GRU would be awesome ... but is the market big enough to sustain year-round profitably?
 
iyerhari
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:52 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):

Emirates is already operating now - the non-US carriers missed/neglected their chances and that's being capitalized by carriers who know where to find new business avenues in the already heated competition. I think they have an excellent chance to survive, sustain and preserve the momentum. Business opportunities are still excellent in Boston and with the opening of the new innovation district, it's going to further strengthen the already prospering LSHC market - not to mention the existing strengths in education, financial services, High-tech and tourism. All in all it's exciting time for Boston and correctly did the WSJ article state "Boston charm". I'm already looking to the next headline in the Globe or WSJ when the new flight to Milan would start and I think the headline should be "Fashion capital of the world connects with the education capital of the world". Maybe that time, the executives from AA, Delta, etc. can fly into BOS and take a refresher course at Harvard or MIT on how to decipher profitable route segments outside of their so-called hubs.  
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:56 pm

I just don't think deep S.America will ever materialize. Just look at the distances that are in play. It's far more economic for airlines to hub somewhere in between. I think BOG-BOS with AV is far more likely than GRU-BOS.
 
bobnwa
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:03 pm

I don't believe is located geographically well enough to become a domestic hub for any airline. There are plenty of flights headed south and west out of Boston but very few opportunities for connections from the north or east to make it a 360 degree domestic hub
 
globetrotter29
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:10 pm

Surprised MEX is unserved from BOS.
 
AADFWFlyer
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:19 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 1):

For what it's worth - what is the combined market share of the combined AA/US to the new AA in BOS - with gates, flight arrivals/departures, etc - finding conflicting information as my numbers were based on just the AA retreat in Boston (thanks to Tom Horton), but now would like a picture of the new AA - and with the appreciation of the new AA management and their different approach to running an airline - ie: competing, and not retreating - looking forward to see the things that the new AA has on the table and horizon - and now being a bigger player in Boston, due to the AA/US combination. Thanks for any feedback - appreciate it!.
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 6):
I don't believe is located geographically well enough to become a domestic hub for any airline. There are plenty of flights headed south and west out of Boston but very few opportunities for connections from the north or east to make it a 360 degree domestic hub

Certainly not a domestic hub but just about every flight entering or leaving the U.S. to/from the East overflies BOS. It can be an international hub as big as an airline or alliance wants to make it. Massport will bend over backwards to support growth. B6 wanted a terminal to themselves. Done. EK wanted a link to B6's terminal. Done. AA wanted more gates in terminal B. Done. WN wanted expanded gate space. Done.

Quoting AADFWFlyer (Reply 8):
For what it's worth - what is the combined market share of the combined AA/US to the new AA in BOS - with gates, flight arrivals/departures, etc

No idea but that doesn't change the international landscape at BOS. AA is simplynot interested in serving international destinations from BOS and that is true for just about every domestic airline which is why international routes from BOS are dominated by international carriers. It is mind bogling that so many international carriers find BOS to be a worthwhile investment but the U.S. carriers don't. I am surprised and even shocked that KLM has not yet taken over the AMS flights from DL. Personally I actually like it this way. Imagine being from Atlanta and all you see down there is Delta tails despite being the largest airport in the world in terms of passengers.
 
AADFWFlyer
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:40 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):

Yea, wish that AA would fly more of their metal out of BOS like they used to - but know that the OW flights on Japan Airlines and British Airways cover some Intl locations.... thanks for the information.
 
VS11
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:08 pm

Indeed, things are looking good for Boston and the area in general. The local economy is doing pretty well, and most importantly Boston is fixing one of its long-standing issues - costly housing. The last couple of years have seen many new projects (granted, high-end, but still) and more and more young people and families are moving into the city. So you do have the market for growth and as airbazar says the local authorities are very pro-growth oriented and cooperative with businesses. Also, Boston just got a new mayor who is moving on keeping bars open later so that would also help with Boston shaking the perception of being on the sleepy side.

I don't think US carriers have lost Boston off their radar. I believe many of them retreated from international markets because they could not have stayed competitive enough. Let's face it, flying old 757's and 767's across the Atlantic is never going to be a winner against VS, BA, AF, LH, EK, TK, etc. However, with the 787 and 350 things may change in a few years.

As to Central and South America, it is indeed strange that there are not many direct services in view of the pretty robust Latino population in the Boston area. I can only assume that AA is doing a good job connecting through Miami.
 
brilondon
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:16 pm

I am glad to see BOS becoming a larger international gateway. It is always nicer to avoid JFK when coming to America from Europe. Although Boston is the home to the Bosox, it is still a nice place to visit and stay the night on my way home.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
a380787
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:27 pm

Quoting vs11 (Reply 11):
Let's face it, flying old 757's and 767's across the Atlantic is never going to be a winner against VS, BA, AF, LH, EK, TK, etc. However, with the 787 and 350 things may change in a few years.

I don't know about DL or AA, but UA definitely has no appetite for BOS long haul

while BOS is one of the their largest domestic stations (outside of hubs), long-haul options for UA are pretty dead :

LHR : already has BA AA DL
CDG : AA and AF ... and AA can't even keep it year round
FRA : LH
MUC : LH
ZRH : LX

At *most* UA would do BOS-FRA, but so far UA hasn't shown any willingness to do NonHub-to-PartnerHub type routes.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:44 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 1):
So in my opinion, it hasn't been so much growth as it has been a recovery.

I agree. But still, Boston seems to be 'recovering' better than most, and the recovery is seeing a different 'mix.' We used to talk about 'legacy' carriers such as UA, AA, DL, NW (then), TWA (then) with a degree of 'reverence.' No more. Those 'legacy' carriers aren't revered any more than McDonald's is as a restaurant. They want to hang their hat on a few major gateways? Fine...we'll just get some new suppliers (B6) who are very happy to pick up where our own 'legacy' carriers leave off. Internationally, same thing. BA is very happy to provide the seats that AA abandoned, for example.

The financial abyss that our homegrown 'legacy' carriers found themselves in post-9/11 gave other airlines the ability to waltz into profitable cities (read: Boston) and establish themselves. Pre-9/11, an American Airlines would go into any airport and bash an interloper into submission. That was their violent MO, and it was well documented, too. But losing money as they were, none of them could 'fight' for stations that weren't named 'New York' or 'Miami' or 'Los Angeles.'
DL had to wave their own white flag with respect to Dallas; AA had to do it with Nashville. US with Pittsburgh. UA with Dulles & Cleveland. Etcetera Etcetera Etcetera

Now, Boston isn't JFK; never has been and never will be. Like I said in another thread: We get it. The mistaken psychology espoused by our domestic carriers is that Boston is 'close enough' to JFK and that fliers can go there to reach other places. But JetBlue didn't think so, and neither did Emirates. And Turkish. And Hainan. And maybe even Qatar. Etcetera Etcetera Etcetera.

The only problem I can see is that the BOS infrastructure (land-side, air-side) may be outpaced by the demand to fly here. Like someone said, Emirates may want to use a 773ER NOW, but the gate they have can't accept it without taking out neighboring gates. Stuff like that.
 
cloudboy
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:50 pm

Do we know how many passengers flying through Logan are flying from BOS and returning to BOS, and how many are flying from another destination and visiting Boston?

I think one driver for foreign airlines is not as an origin point but as a destination point. Which is one reason why domestic airlines aren't as interested in serving international destinations. For Americans, Boston isn't such a big tourist attraction, but for the international traveler, it is a lot more approachable than many other US destinations.

With the consolidation of airlines, I think new domestic markets will be opening up. It will be interesting to see what kind f partnerships are generated, I think this might be where BOS in the future will see growth - foreign non-alliance airlines partnering with some of the newer US domestic airlines, with Boston serving as a convenient connection point avoiding the cost and hassle of NYC.
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
VS11
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:00 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 14):
Those 'legacy' carriers aren't revered any more than McDonald's is as a restaurant.

I totally agree with you. The damage US carriers have done to themselves may well be beyond repair. Even DL decided to buy Virgin Atlantic rather than wait to establish itself on the TATL market. I like the aggressiveness of the AA rebranding effort but that will take some time to propagate to actual aircraft and services. UA seems the most hopeless right now.
 
flyby519
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:34 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 12):

I am glad to see BOS becoming a larger international gateway. It is always nicer to avoid JFK when coming to America from Europe. Although Boston is the home to the Bosox, it is still a nice place to visit and stay the night on my way home.


I think this is important for Massport to remember as they grow their intl presence. I am worried that they will over-grow the amount of international traffic without changing the Customs facility. Boston can be a success if it remains more connection friendly and faster customs times than JFK.
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airbazar
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:58 pm

Quoting globetrotter29 (Reply 7):
Surprised MEX is unserved from BOS.

No market. It's hard enough to find a decent Mexican restaurant around here, let alone business ties  
The latino population around here is primarily from the Caribbean, Central America, and Brazil. Brazilian are the largest group of visitors from Latin America.

Quoting vs11 (Reply 11):
Indeed, things are looking good for Boston and the area in general. The local economy is doing pretty well, and most importantly Boston is fixing one of its long-standing issues - costly housing.

Housing is still costly. That's never going to change because there's no land to build new housing.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 13):
At *most* UA would do BOS-FRA, but so far UA hasn't shown any willingness to do NonHub-to-PartnerHub type routes.

UA has no interest in serving FRA because they have a JV with LH. The same reason why AA abandoned LHR.

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 15):
Do we know how many passengers flying through Logan are flying from BOS and returning to BOS, and how many are flying from another destination and visiting Boston?

I don't but we know that Boston originating traffic is the highest in the country, per capita. By that I mean that people from this area travel more often than anyone else in the country. So that in a way explains why a premdominantly O&D airport is doing so well.

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 15):
I think one driver for foreign airlines is not as an origin point but as a destination point. Which is one reason why domestic airlines aren't as interested in serving international destinations. For Americans, Boston isn't such a big tourist attraction, but for the international traveler, it is a lot more approachable than many other US destinations.

I would guess that Boston is not a huge tourist destination for either. It's however a global center of commerce and education and that's what drives a lot of air traffic here. This link has really good information. The ratio of leisure to business pax at BOS is only 2-to-1.
http://www.bostonusa.com/partner/press/statistics/
The Chinese are now the second largest group of visitors and the biggest spenders by a huge margin. Mind boggling stuff. And we don't even have a flight to China yet. This is a group that no doubt the likes of TK will capitalize on despite the long detour.
 
VS11
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 18):
Housing is still costly. That's never going to change because there's no land to build new housing.

True, housing is still costly but South Boston and Seaport are areas that have seen lots of new residential projects. Several new projects in the margins of the South End too.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 18):
I don't but we know that Boston originating traffic is the highest in the country, per capita. By that I mean that people from this area travel more often than anyone else in the country. So that in a way explains why a premdominantly O&D airport is doing so well.

This is partly due to the army of consultants that fly out every Monday and come back Thursday but still good-yielding traffic.  
 
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adamh8297
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:17 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 13):
CDG : AA and AF ... and AA can't even keep it year round

DL does AMS and seasonal CDG as well.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 18):
No market.

There's a market (50-60 PDEW) and its probably has a fair share of business. Its just not big enough for a 2000 mile flight.
AM tried it and failed. MEX was no picnic for connections either. DL wouldn't hesitate to throw an E-175 on it if it were in range.
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airbazar
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:20 pm

Here's the Massport press release that actually states "renovation of gates to accommodate Airbus A-380 aircraft – the largest commercial aircraft flying which Massport expects to service in the near future."
http://massport.com/news-room/news/g...ns-international-flight-expansion/

Massport must be fairly confident that they will get FAA approval for regular A380 ops if they are going ahead with modifications to 2 gates at terminal E. Personally I think this upgrade is long overdue and would benefit all aircraft even if no A380 ever comes here. Current 747 operators especially will be thrilled to learn of this improvement.
 
iyerhari
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:32 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 14):

  You're on the spot Chris. If domestic carriers considered BOS to be like some of the cities that lost their hub status such as PIT, CVG, MEM, and now CLE who are clamoring for additional support from others - then that won't happen with Boston as there will be smart carriers like B6 to capitalize for an excellent growth opportunity. The remaining US carriers will become like the run of the mill airlines who lost a good opportunity and now will lose all hopes to capitalize on that. But imagine the diversity at Logan to see every gate being occupied by a well-known fleet of well-respected and courteous international airlines supported by B6 true to the nature & spirit of the city that accords diversity and applauds performance than having to see a monolithic presence of a single dominant carrier dictating the likes of a city and airport.
 
questions
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:41 pm

When Delta built Terminal A did it envision BOS as an international gateway? Does Terminal A have the facilities to process international flights? With the UA/CO merger did Delta take back the gates it passed to CO?
 
bobnwa
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:54 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 23):
Does Terminal A have the facilities to process international flights? With the UA/CO merger did Delta take back the gates it passed to CO?

Terminal A does not have customs but Delta has requested it from Massport with no luck.

Dl did get back the CO gates in Terminal A
 
ASA
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 20):
There's a market (50-60 PDEW) and its probably has a fair share of business. Its just not big enough for a 2000 mile flight. AM tried it and failed. MEX was no picnic for connections either. DL wouldn't hesitate to throw an E-175 on it if it were in range.

How about a JetBlue A320 ? ... pretty consistent with B6's southward / Caribbean strategy from BOS.
Hopefully as market stimulates, there will be decent traffic (and some connecting from New England).

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 24):
Terminal A does not have customs but Delta has requested it from Massport with no luck.

Dl did get back the CO gates in Terminal A

Now that Terminal E is filling up fast ... Massport may be amenable to Skyteam moving its operations to Terminal A completely and an FIS as part of that plan? I would say Terminal B makes more sense with new AA and UA together, but they have almost ZERO international flying from Logan (except BA's 4x LHR operation)

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 17):
think this is important for Massport to remember as they grow their intl presence. I am worried that they will over-grow the amount of international traffic without changing the Customs facility. Boston can be a success if it remains more connection friendly and faster customs times than JFK.

I think many of us worry the same (especially if you can remember the situation of the pre-renovation dump we had in Terminal E). That's why my above assertion hoping that Massport proactively thinks for an FIS in Terminal A.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 6):

I don't believe is located geographically well enough to become a domestic hub for any airline. There are plenty of flights headed south and west out of Boston but very few opportunities for connections from the north or east to make it a 360 degree domestic hub

Agreed. Can't be a domestic hub ... but a huge focus city for Jetblue already, based on its O&D strength. Add to that, the international growth and code-share opportunities (EK, TK, and HU next) ... it could become a westward-domestic-eastward-international hub 
 
VS11
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:54 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 25):
How about a JetBlue A320 ? ... pretty consistent with B6's southward / Caribbean strategy from BOS.
Hopefully as market stimulates, there will be decent traffic (and some connecting from New England).

That's a pretty good idea! B6 don't serve Mexico City from NYC either so they may consider opening both MEX-BOS/NYC.

Quoting ASA (Reply 25):
That's why my above assertion hoping that Massport proactively thinks for an FIS in Terminal A.

I am not sure it is up to Massport. Immigration and Customs officers are federal officers and on Uncle Sam's dime so there may be an entirely different set of things to deal with to get another FIS. However, Massport may have its own views too.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:00 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 25):
Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 20):There's a market (50-60 PDEW) and its probably has a fair share of business. Its just not big enough for a 2000 mile flight. AM tried it and failed. MEX was no picnic for connections either. DL wouldn't hesitate to throw an E-175 on it if it were in range.
How about a JetBlue A320 ?

BOS-MEX is just under 2000 nm, so an A-320 has the range. But MEX is a high/hot airport and I'm not sure the A-320 has enough performance to fly full pax loads and cargo MEX-BOS. An A-319 or B-737-700 can easily do that mission.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:06 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 25):
How about a JetBlue A320 ? ... pretty consistent with B6's southward / Caribbean strategy from BOS.
Hopefully as market stimulates, there will be decent traffic (and some connecting from New England).

Its almost twice the amount of seats and it would be tough to time it perfectly for international partners especially TK and EK due to their long times on the ground. MEX is also well connected 1-stop throughout almost the entire country. I don't think you would get the PIT RIC BUF passengers to connect through BOS to MEX.

Quoting ASA (Reply 25):
Agreed. Can't be a domestic hub ... but a huge focus city for Jetblue already, based on its O&D strength. Add to that, the international growth and code-share opportunities (EK, TK, and HU next) ... it could become a westward-domestic-eastward-international hub 

I think a good goal is that you get a 5-10% increase in overall load factor due to these connections.

Quoting ASA (Reply 25):
Massport may be amenable to Skyteam moving its operations to Terminal A completely and an FIS as part of that plan?

Its also up to the federal government with approving staffing and having two locations on site.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 24):
Terminal A does not have customs but Delta has requested it from Massport with no luck.

Dl did get back the CO gates in Terminal A

There's been grumblings of Southwest going to those gates in A or just somewhere in A. They would need a sweet deal to move.
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adamh8297
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:09 pm

Quoting vs11 (Reply 26):
That's a pretty good idea! B6 don't serve Mexico City from NYC either so they may consider opening both MEX-BOS/NYC.

B6 cannot due to bilateral. They would be serving it right now if they could.

Only two airlines can serve MEX-US city pairs per bilateral. DL and UA own the rights (EWR counts as NYC under the bilateral). You can have three airlines on leisure routes i.e US, DL and B6 on BOS-CUN.
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cessna53996
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:48 pm

Right now WN has 5 gates in Terminal E at BOS. I think that if WN moved to A that they would want 5 gates at the least. They probably wouldn't want satellite gates on A because the E gates are close to the current checkpoint and they would want gates closer to the checkpoint. If they wanted to expand in A, would it be possible to demo that regional arm and add jetways connected to the terminal?
Big version: Width: 766 Height: 589 File size: 119kb


Also, can the current Southwest gates be used as international gates for Copa, and other narrowbody int'l operators into BOS? I'm sure B6 would use those gates for their int'l flights as well.

[Edited 2014-03-14 15:43:28]
Feeling a little blue in ORH, JetBlue.
 
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:49 pm

I think you will see a topping out of B6 growth anywhere between 150 flights and 200 flights. That will happen in the next 5 years

I think you will see further rationalization of schedules from Legeacies that have merged. Which means the two combined airlines will have fewer flights together than if you had taken the two airlines' original schedule and merged them together.

I think you will continue to see slow but steady growth by international carriers.

I don't think BOS is A380 ready in terms of airfield. It could land on 33L-15R or 22L-4R, but I think taxiing that think around would have negative impacts on airfield traffic.

I think BOS will become slotted if B6 gets up to that 200 flight number. And that could have a negative impact on growth. EDCTs are starting to rear their ugly head in BOS, and rumor has it that the FAA is looking at the arrival rate.
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:30 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 25):
Now that Terminal E is filling up fast ... Massport may be amenable to Skyteam moving its operations to Terminal A completely and an FIS as part of that plan?

Pointless exercise unless DL shows them the money because terminal A doesn't have the necessary widebody gates. As it is today, when DL operates their departure only from terminal A with the A333, the adjacent gate has to be blocked off. And that's just 1 flight. There is no way you could park a DL A333, AF 744, and AZ A332 at terminal A at the same time. The same goes for terminal B and OneWorld or Star Alliance.

IMO Boston has a few short term alternatives for increasing throughput at terminal E. Here they are from cheapest to more expensive:
1 - Attract more Asian routes which typically operate mid-day. I think HKG and ICN would be viable.
2 - Add jetways to existing gates to speed up aircraft turnaround times and increase gate utilization.
3 - Expand terminal E towards the current remote stand area.
 
Tim445
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:27 am

Gate E1A could possibly be turned into an international gate. I believe it was at one time shortly after construction of the original Volpe Terminal used for international arrivals.

Remember for quite a few years in the 1980s and 1990s both gate E2 and E3 were mostly used for domestic flights by Northwest. For many many years there was NOT a security checkpoint from the original NW ticketing area(where Southwest baggage claim is today behind the taxi stand) and thus NW passengers had to go up the escalator from Level 1 to 3 thru security than back downstairs to where the gates E1A to E1E are.(At this time their was still a Terminal D with its own security checkpoint). Thus the use of the E1 gates was highly undesirable to Northwest compared to the E2 and E3 gates. Massport was quite happy to take back the leases on E2 and E3. I believe both though are used for Aer Lingus pre clearance arrivals and most importantly were not given over to Southwest(Additionally a former international baggage claim 3 has now been coverted to domestic use).

I think the main issues with converting E1A to international use would be keeping access to the Air France lounge and the elevator linking the E1 gates to the E2-8 gates during CBP operations. I don't know what modifications Massport can do their in the bowels of Terminal E(The airline lounge situation in E is quite poor it really is the bowels).
 
alphaomega
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:33 am

Quoting globetrotter29 (Reply 7):

Surprised MEX is unserved from BOS.

Aeromexico applied for landing rights at about the same time as Copa last year, both were denied. Copa changed their schedule and started operating in July, never heard anything further from AM.

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 14):
The only problem I can see is that the BOS infrastructure (land-side, air-side) may be outpaced by the demand to fly here. Like someone said, Emirates may want to use a 773ER NOW, but the gate they have can't accept it without taking out neighboring gates. Stuff like that.

They can use a 773 right now, and likely will shortly. It was the A380 which Sir Tim said they wanted to operate to BOS now, but can't.

Quoting Tim445 (Reply 33):

Gate E1A could possibly be turned into an international gate. I believe it was at one time shortly after construction of the original Volpe Terminal used for international arrivals.

Remember for quite a few years in the 1980s and 1990s both gate E2 and E3 were mostly used for domestic flights by Northwest. For many many years there was NOT a security checkpoint from the original NW ticketing area(where Southwest baggage claim is today behind the taxi stand) and thus NW passengers had to go up the escalator from Level 1 to 3 thru security than back downstairs to where the gates E1A to E1E are.(At this time their was still a Terminal D with its own security checkpoint). Thus the use of the E1 gates was highly undesirable to Northwest compared to the E2 and E3 gates. Massport was quite happy to take back the leases on E2 and E3. I believe both though are used for Aer Lingus pre clearance arrivals and most importantly were not given over to Southwest(Additionally a former international baggage claim 3 has now been coverted to domestic use).

I think the main issues with converting E1A to international use would be keeping access to the Air France lounge and the elevator linking the E1 gates to the E2-8 gates during CBP operations. I don't know what modifications Massport can do their in the bowels of Terminal E(The airline lounge situation in E is quite poor it really is the bowels).

All you have to do is put up a wall to separate the gates from the rest of the terminal and link into the immigration hallway. This is not a lost plan...
 
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Revelation
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:27 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
Emirates

Cool. Right now the cheapest way to do BOS-CDG is to do BOS-IST-CDG using TK (cheaper than routing through Iceland or using AF!) but perhaps BOS-DXB-CDG using EK will end up being even cheaper!  
Quoting bobnwa (Reply 6):
I don't believe is located geographically well enough to become a domestic hub for any airline.

Wow, as others are saying, that just doesn't matter. All we see at hubs is prices skyrocket.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):
B6 wanted a terminal to themselves. Done. EK wanted a link to B6's terminal. Done. AA wanted more gates in terminal B. Done. WN wanted expanded gate space. Done.

This was mostly made possible by:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 1):
So in my opinion, it hasn't been so much growth as it has been a recovery. It's easy to say B6 has been responsible for this growth, they certainly contributed to it, but for the most part they simply replaced other carriers and took their passengers. UA, AA, DL, all shrunk at one point or another in the last 13 years. In my opinion, it was WN coming to Boston in 2009? and DL exiting BK in 2007 that really kick-started BOS's recovery and growth.

  

and:

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 14):
The financial abyss that our homegrown 'legacy' carriers found themselves in post-9/11 gave other airlines the ability to waltz into profitable cities (read: Boston) and establish themselves. Pre-9/11, an American Airlines would go into any airport and bash an interloper into submission. That was their violent MO, and it was well documented, too. But losing money as they were, none of them could 'fight' for stations that weren't named 'New York' or 'Miami' or 'Los Angeles.'
DL had to wave their own white flag with respect to Dallas; AA had to do it with Nashville. US with Pittsburgh. UA with Dulles & Cleveland. Etcetera Etcetera Etcetera

  

BOS has had no where to go but up. The holes that B6 and others have been filling is the craters left behind by the post-9/11 industry crash and waves of bankruptcy and consolidation that have followed.

If I may quibble with airbazar's comment I quoted above, it's not so much DL's recovery that is making things happen, what really made things happen was them pouring money into expanding Terminal A then dumping all the debts of such a risky investment (along with many others) onto their debters, one of which was/is Massport. The excess capacity they've created is what has allowed for all the moves/shifts spoken of above, not any great master plan from Massport.

I'm glad to see Massport has done its part spending the federal improvement funds that come right out of our ticket fares, as well as some nice deal making to bring in carriers, but the real question is how will they do now that the holes are largely filled and the slack has largely been reeled in.

For instance:

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 14):
The only problem I can see is that the BOS infrastructure (land-side, air-side) may be outpaced by the demand to fly here. Like someone said, Emirates may want to use a 773ER NOW, but the gate they have can't accept it without taking out neighboring gates. Stuff like that.

is a good example of things they need to be able to resolve, as is A380 preparation.

Personally I think Massport has a few years of fair weather sailing ahead that allows for increasing fares without stressing the system, given the economy is generally mending and not all of the industry consolidation has shaken through the system (in particular with respect to the regional airline up-gaging and the pilot shortage), but it will be very interesting to see how they handle themselves in the short to medium term.
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adamh8297
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):
but perhaps BOS-DXB-CDG using EK will end up being even cheaper!

That's almost three times the flying. I'd consider it if saving $1000 USD. I'm not sure if I would even go through IST to get to Western Europe.

Regardless EK's booking engine will not let you do BOS-DXB-Western Europe except for some bizarre interlines to secondary destinations and it will not be cheaper. I searched ITA and got nothing as well.

You can do BOS--DXB-Eastern Europe and Russia though still not at low TK prices.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 34):
Aeromexico applied for landing rights at about the same time as Copa last year, both were denied. Copa changed their schedule and started operating in July, never heard anything further from AM.

CBP denied the landing rights not Massport right?

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 31):
I think you will see a topping out of B6 growth anywhere between 150 flights and 200 flights.

I believe B6 has plans to top out at 150 and cannot do more unless they creep into E (with WN hypothetically in A). Also, you may need other airlines to cut flight which may not happen (unless VX ceases to exist)
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:02 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 35):
Personally I think Massport has a few years of fair weather sailing ahead that allows for increasing fares without stressing the system, given the economy is generally mending and not all of the industry consolidation has shaken through the system (in particular with respect to the regional airline up-gaging and the pilot shortage), but it will be very interesting to see how they handle themselves in the short to medium term.

I think the time to make serious modifications to BOS has passed, unfortunately. The kind of highly disruptive changes that BOS needs had to have been addresses during the down times. BOS needs a serious redesign but this is a huge project that will remind people of the Big Dig. For example, expanding the central garage was a mistake IMO. Instead Massport should have relocated at least one of the central garages to the same area where the new car rental facility now is located. This would have made room to build a huge new consolidated central terminal, and then one by one replace each of the terminals as piers off of the main terminal. Similar to the layout of AMS or FRA. I know that's a huge undertaking and probably more than we can afford but that's exactly what BOS needs for the next 50 years. Instead it looks like we're going to continue to patch it up to get by.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 36):
That's almost three times the flying. I'd consider it if saving $1000 USD. I'm not sure if I would even go through IST to get to Western Europe.
IST is ok if your final destination is Central or Eastern Europe. In my case SZG is perfectly acceptable because the alternative is to do what we've been doing for years which is to fly into MUC and then drive for 2 hours. I would probably never use IST to get to France or the UK.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 34):
They can use a 773 right now, and likely will shortly. It was the A380 which Sir Tim said they wanted to operate to BOS now, but can't.

I wouldn't be surprised if they can't, of if Massport is not prepared for it. Not because of the wingspan as Chris suggested, but because of its length. I don't know how many gates at terminal E can handle that plane. I'm guessing the same that handle the A346 which I believe are only 2. But besides that there could be remote stand limitations due to the length of the airplane. I hope not and that we'll see the 77W here soon.

[Edited 2014-03-15 06:27:27]
 
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chrisnh
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:13 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 37):
we'll see the 77W here soon.

It sure will be something to crow about if we do. Both Seattle and Dallas came online for Emirates in Mar 2012. Seattle just upgraded to the 773ER; Dallas hasn't. So if Boston does it even within calendar 2014, that will get people to sit up and take notice...and probably no small amount of grumbling from Big D Little A Double L A-S. And that spells DALLAS.
 
N757ST
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:41 pm

What might be very interesting is what happens when Jetblue starts receiving A321NEOs....
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:50 pm

Quoting N757ST (Reply 39):
What might be very interesting is what happens when Jetblue starts receiving A321NEOs....

Can a 321NEO fly BOS-Western Europe or Northern South America? Hmmm...
 
N757ST
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:53 pm

Quoting jetbluefan1 (Reply 40):
Can a 321NEO fly BOS-Western Europe or Northern South America? Hmmm...

It can definitely do western europe, hence why Aer Lingus bought theirs. A mint A321NEO might be a perfect BOS- Secondary Western Europe airport bird.

[Edited 2014-03-15 07:55:02]
 
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 38):
Dallas hasn't. So if Boston does it even within calendar 2014, that will get people to sit up and take notice...and probably no small amount of grumbling from Big D Little A Double L A-S. And that spells DALLAS.

Looked at EK's DFW load factors 90% for the most part - I'm surprised they haven't bumped it... Maybe they are leery on the fact that QR and EY are coming and that they are AA partners.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
alphaomega
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:45 pm

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 36):
Quoting alphaomega (Reply 34):
Aeromexico applied for landing rights at about the same time as Copa last year, both were denied. Copa changed their schedule and started operating in July, never heard anything further from AM.

CBP denied the landing rights not Massport right?

Massport won't deny anyone, as we've seen from the recent planned growth. The overnight hours are not favored by CBP, which is when they were looking to operate. Massport was actually working to get the funding/staffing for CBP overnight to help grow the market south of the border, including more from PTY.
 
airbazar
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:19 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 38):
It sure will be something to crow about if we do. Both Seattle and Dallas came online for Emirates in Mar 2012. Seattle just upgraded to the 773ER; Dallas hasn't. So if Boston does it even within calendar 2014, that will get people to sit up and take notice...and probably no small amount of grumbling from Big D Little A Double L A-S. And that spells DALLAS.

I'm not sure it means anything to DFW. DFW is the end of the line for EK. Strictly O&D. Whereas BOS is a connecting airport, being fed by B6. There's a lot more growth potential at BOS than there is at DFW. DFW also gets a lot of Asia bound traffic over the Pacific and has a very strong home carrier. To get to India from DFW, it almost makes no difference whether you go East or West. EK is going head-to-head with the likes of AA and KE, on top of the Euro carriers and as well as a variety of 2-stop options. From BOS, EK's competition are the overpriced, over taxed, Euro carriers. It's a much easier market to penetrate, IMO.
 
commavia
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:23 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 38):
So if Boston does it even within calendar 2014, that will get people to sit up and take notice...and probably no small amount of grumbling from Big D Little A Double L A-S. And that spells DALLAS.

Why would there be grumbling from "DALLAS?" Why would "DALLAS" care?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 44):
DFW is the end of the line for EK. Strictly O&D. Whereas BOS is a connecting airport, being fed by B6.

Not strictly O&D. Beyond the connectivity over DXB, AA also sends plenty of interline connections onto AA over DFW. Not a codeshare like B6, true, but definitely more than just O&D to be sure.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 45):
Why would there be grumbling from "DALLAS?" Why would "DALLAS" care?

The city of Dallas wouldn't care - 95% of the population doesn't realize that the flight is flown with a 777-200LR. I would bet that half of the population doesn't even know that EK even exists.

DFW airport management may care (less landing revenues) but thats about it.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:31 am

How do the advanced bookings on TK and HU look, any information?
When will HU have enough 788 to launch daily service on this route?

Looking at the strong EK bookings (guessing it is primarily India and Subcontinent bound traffic), how soon are QR or EY going to blink? Whoever is next - B6 is probably getting even more code-share partners (ala Alaska)  
 
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adamh8297
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:55 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 47):
When will HU have enough 788 to launch daily service on this route?

Probably very soon - especially once whatever arrangement with B6 comes into play and they get all of their 787's. I wouldn't be surprised if HU axed ORD too since they seem to be lowering frequencies on the route.

However - I'm not sure if the Shanghai business traffic that originates in Greater Boston will take this flight. I have anecdotal evidence (my colleagues) that are hesitant to 1) take a Chinese carrier and 2) connect in PEK. Their preferred connecting airport in DTW.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
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RE: BOS: Growth As International Gateway And B6 Hub

Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:34 pm

Quoting globetrotter29 (Reply 7):
Surprised MEX is unserved from BOS.

Don't know if the market can support this route.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 24):
Dl did get back the CO gates in Terminal A

UA is still operating from Terminal A at BOS.

Quoting vs11 (Reply 26):
That's a pretty good idea! B6 don't serve Mexico City from NYC either so they may consider opening both MEX-BOS/NYC.

B6 and AA are prohibited from serving NYC-MEX, this is due to the US/Mexico agreement limiting each route to only two us carriers. UA and DL are the only US carriers allowed to operated NYC-MEX, DL got their JFK-MEX rights from Pan Am. UA got theirs from CO who got theirs from Eastern, CO and Eastern were both part of Texas Air and the parent company transfered the EA JFK-MEX route to CO to allow them to operate EWR-MEX.
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