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SA7700
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:47 pm

Due to length part 23 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 24.

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B777-200ER missing enroute KUL-PEK (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysian Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines 772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)


A select few members have been making remarks towards others in the “Missing Malaysia Airlines 777 threads” for speculating about the fate of 9M-MRO, her crew and passengers. Given the fact that there is so much uncertainty going on at this stage, speculation is going to be a factor on this site and also at the biggest and greatest news corporations of the globe. At least until we all have a clearer picture. Is it a perfect situation – certainly not? That being said, we need to stay dynamic in a possible fast-changing situation.

It is not unique to this incident and if we go back in history and trace remarkable aviation events we will see that speculation has been an aspect, essential to some healthy debate. It is not the intention of the moderators to stifle the opinions of members that fall within the rules-and regulations of airliners.net. All that we kindly request from all our members is to stay within the site’s parameters. Please be respectful towards one another and let us all hope for the best possible outcome.


A REMINDER TO ALL OUR MEMBERS:


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**** SUMMARY PROVIDED BY MEMBER: rcair1 (Post 77 from thread 23) ****

First - synopsis
- The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing

- The last ACARS transmission was about 01:07 local. This does not mean ACARS was shut off - just that was the last transmission of ACARS data (See ACARS below)

- The last comms were a normal hand-off from Malaysia to Vietnam control at about 1:30 local

- It was a normal 'good night' on the Malaysian side, but Vietnam was not contacted.

- The aircraft dropped off secondary radar with no communication from the cockpit.

- There are some reports of a descent and turn based on primary radar. The descent was on the order of 3000 ft to 29,500.

- There are subsequent primary radar returns west over Malacca Straight.

- Since it is primarily radar - a reflection - we do not know that it is the accident a/c.

- We STILL do not know if it was a track (multiple returns) or a few points returns.

- We have 'reports' of SATCOM system pings for some hours after LOS (loss of signal)

- There is confusion (and argument) about the content of those pings and if those pings can provide location information (See SATCOM below)

- We have no ELT signal detected.


ACARS
- ACARS is an automated aircraft health management system that transmits a/c maintenance information to maintenance facilities like the airline, Boeing, Engine Manf, etc.

- ACARS is NOT a flight system - it is not needed for safe flight - it is a maintenance system

- ACARS is a subscription service and costs money. All indications are the MH370 was subscribed only to engine health monitoring and data from that is sent to Rolls Royce.

- ACARS communicates via VHF or SATCOM (and maybe Wifi at the gate). The communications channel depends on availability and is independent of the ACARS.


ACARS data from MH370
- MH370 sent 2 ACARS (or rather Engine Health) reports to Rolls Royce. The last was approximately 1:07

- Rolls Royce's would have expected only 1 more transmission at landing - that was never received.

- NOTE: this fact is in dispute - some reports say a transmission every 20 minutes or so was expected - however I believe that to be incorrect.

- The fact that the last ACARS was sent some time before the transponder signal was loss does not mean ACARS was turned off at that time. ACARS transmissions on this ship are not continuous


SATCOM
- SATCOM is a communications channel - Satellite Communications. It is a radio system that uses satellites to communicate various information.

- SATCOM is not ACARS - it is one of the channels ACARS can use.

- The last communication via SATCOM was the last ACARS message at 1:07


SATCOM Pings.
- The SATCOM system sends (or responds to) periodic 'pings' to/from the satellites. These 'pings' are a network communication that says "I am here." They are often called "keep alive" signals.

- SATCOM pings are not communicating a/c status, they are part of the communications channel.

- There are reports that SATCOM pings were heard for up to 4 or 5 hours into flight (or after LOS)

- NOTE: to those complaining it took to long to report this - remember the SATCOM pings are deep in the communications protocol and not what people would normally look at. How often do you look at the basic network traffic on your router?

- There is speculation that the SATCOM pings contain altitude, heading, speed. From a communications standpoint that does not make sense.

- I believe what is really happening is that experts in this system are trying to derive some location, speed, etc. information from the nature of the pings For instance, what satellites did they hit, when and how strong. Much like GPS, you may be able to derive information about location.


Way-point Tracks:
- There are reports and maps today of a track following way-points.

- The source (Radar? Satcom? Visual?) and veracity of this information is not confirmed.

- At this point I cannot state any factual data related other than it is being discussed in the press


Airworthiness Directive
- The airworthiness directive about corrosion near the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.

- The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna


Search Areas Based on this information - authorities are searching:
- Along the planed route

- West over the Malacca straight

- North west of Malacca straight

- Near the islands of Andaman and Nicobar. Indian a/c report nothing found in this area.

- Unconfirmed: in the Indian Ocean. Initial reports were the US was sending the KIDD there, but I believe those were wrong


Conspiracy Theories:
- There are lots of conspiracy theories out there - from the Malaysian government hiding something to pilot suicide, to hijacking to whatever.

- We have no data to support any of them.

- The breadth of the countries searching alone makes me discount many of the 'government is hiding it' aspects

- It is likely there are covert (secret) resources in the area that are trying to provide the info without revealing themselves.


Mobile phones
- We know that if any mobile phones were connected to the tower - we would have a location and would search there.

- We don't have any reports or evidence of that - so I conclude that it is not viable to consider.


We have lots of complaints about incompetence.
- I've been in and in command of large emergencies and been the one responsible to communicate to large groups.

- Even in the best situations, with cooperating agencies - it is easy to portray incompetence when what is really going on is hard work that is not providing the desired result.

- Complaints continue and will despite what any authority does till something happens.


We have had a lot of "false" sightings. I can not keep up.
- This is common and we need to investigate the credible ones. Most will be false.

- The Chinese Satellite data has not resulted in any findings.

- Indian aircraft have searched (some) near Andaman and Nicobar and nothing found


----------------------
In summary
We KNOW 4 things.
- The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.

- There is some evidence that it traveled west. But that evidence is not conclusive or sure.

- We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

- We have a better idea were it is NOT

**** SUMMARY PROVIDED BY MEMBER: rcair1 (Post 77 from thread 23) ****



Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,

SA7700

[Edited 2014-03-14 13:21:18]
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
flyenthu
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:51 pm

The Malaysian Airforce had initially indicated catching something flying to the west on its radar. Does that check with the satellite ping locations that was in the westerly direction? It should shouldn't it? If in fact the Malaysian Air Force's radar return is MH 370, then the track should fall right on the line between two pings. Won't it?
 
strandedinbgm
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:52 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 1):
If in fact the Malaysian Air Force's radar return is MH 370, then the track should fall right on the line between two pings. Won't it?

I should think so.
It's 737s, 747s and 380s. Not 737's, 747's and 380's. Learn to use the apostrophe for crying out loud.
 
spacecadet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:53 pm

Since my post in the last thread was after the thread lock, I'll repost it here:

Quoting davidzill (Reply 249):
I brought up the gradually progressing fire making its way to the avionics bay, combined with the loss of systems, oil rig worker observing burning plane, a recently reported sea flor event near where the "burning plane" was observed, and subsequent Chinese satellite photos of possible debris.

Only one witness said he saw something that he thought *might* have been MH370 - at night, from far away. The Chinese satellite photos have already been debunked, although the area was re-searched (for something like the third or fourth time) anyway, apparently just to satisfy everyone who saw those photos.

The progressive fire scenario requires way too many implausible jumps in logic. A plane that can apparently withstand a continuously burning fire for hours. Pilots that are fine signing off from one controller, but too incapacitated literally the very next moment to squawk 7600 - after their comms go out at the very same time. An autopilot that apparently continued to work throughout, *or* pilots that were so incompetent that they did not attempt a landing or even a descent despite a burning fire that had already knocked out their comms and transponder. Planes can fly for a time on their own if trimmed properly without autopilot, but not forever as they burn fuel and get lighter, and not through changing weather conditions. So for 4 hours of flight, you'd have to assume someone or something was controlling the plane, even though no attempts at comm were made and all other systems were seemingly knocked out by this 4 hour fire.

This scenario is so far-fetched that *it* sounds like the conspiracy theory at this point.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 250):
The SOP for this sort of thing is clearly not working., so if "Us offcials" are going to say anything to anyone, then give us a leader and give us scheduled press conferences that are US-led.

It's not our place to do that. Imagine if there was a plane crash in Iowa and when our investigation stalled, Russia instead just started holding press conferences about it and announcing their findings. How offensive would that be?

The US strategy right now seems obvious: conduct a shadow investigation, leak pertinent info to the press. That way they make it appear that the Malaysians are controlling the SAR and investigation, but the stuff the US wants to get out to the public, gets out to the public.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
flyingturtle
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 7:58 pm

Repost after thread lock.

Quoting imatams (Reply 274):
Have you been watching 'Contact'? (the Jodie Foster SF film)

I actually thought of using our best radio telescopes - like those in Jodrell Banks, Arecibo and the Very Large Array - to record all signals from MH370 as they are reflected from other planets.

Well.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 278):

And, do you have the numbers of these Airbus Pinto fuel tank explosions?


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:02 pm

Just as I though before it was inmarsat that saw what quite literally where pings from the satcom modem. (Not Boeing as some articles mention) although they don't quite reveal how long/where the plane was during the "routine and automatic" transmissions.

http://www.inmarsat.com/news/inmarsa...nt-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh370/
 
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seat55a
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:08 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 5):
although they don't quite reveal how long/where the plane was during the "routine and automatic" transmissions.

According to the Inmarsat interview in the NY Times, the location has to be calculated by triangulation. That wouldn't be very precise but would direct to east or west of KUL. You can probably put this together with the claims in the WSJ and say "several hours flying westward."
 
lgbga
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:09 pm

So please don't jump on me if it's been mentioned and for posting a conspiracy theory (not saying it's true) but has anyone else read the info about Jacob Rothschild, Freescale, and a newly acquired patent circulating around?
  
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:10 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
The progressive fire scenario requires way too many implausible jumps in logic. A plane that can apparently withstand a continuously burning fire for hours. Pilots that are fine signing off from one controller, but too incapacitated literally the very next moment to squawk 7600 - after their comms go out at the very same time. An autopilot that apparently continued to work throughout, *or* pilots that were so incompetent that they did not attempt a landing or even a descent despite a burning fire that had already knocked out their comms and transponder. Planes can fly for a time on their own if trimmed properly without autopilot, but not forever as they burn fuel and get lighter, and not through changing weather conditions. So for 4 hours of flight, you'd have to assume someone or something was controlling the plane, even though no attempts at comm were made and all other systems were seemingly knocked out by this 4 hour fire.

This scenario is so far-fetched that *it* sounds like the conspiracy theory at this point.

What theory is more probable depends on confirmation and total switching of the search zones. If the radar and satcom data doesn't prove the plane was on the other side of the country which hasn't been officially confirmed then a fire is far more probable. If the satcom data does directly correlate with multiple primary radar tracks and it follows a very specific route then a hijack or non-fire is far more plausible. We will have to wait till there is confirmation which will come in the form of stopping the search in one area or the other.

Also in my opinion I highly doubt a plane with halon or other inert gas system (even de-pressurization can't stop a class D fire) short of a foam or sand based system could stop a class D metal fire from undeclared checked cargo.
 
flyenthu
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:12 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 5):
Just as I though before it was inmarsat that saw what quite literally where pings from the satcom modem. (Not Boeing as some articles mention) although they don't quite reveal how long/where the plane was during the "routine and automatic" transmissions.

This removes any doubts about the identity of those signals/pings. As all of this new info was coming along, I was taking the ping information with a grain of salt as well. However, now it is for certain that it was MH 370 as corroborated by INMARSAT themselves. This makes me much more comfortable with the westward flightpath hypothesis.

[Edited 2014-03-14 13:13:48]
 
tomlee
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:13 pm

Quoting seat55a (Reply 6):

Inmarsat uses geostationary satellites with either global beams or spot beams the global beam would provide very poor positioning information but is only for slow data. The spot beams would provide a general area without even needing triangulation as the constellation doesn't require multiple satellites to work.

Example coverage map, http://www.inmarsat.com/service/swiftbroadband-iga/
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:13 pm

Quoting seat55a (Reply 6):
the location has to be calculated by triangulation.

If three separate satellites heard them, that is.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
AT
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:16 pm

Did they find anything from searching the cockpit crew's home? I didn't recall any follow up on that front.
 
JimJupiter
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:16 pm

From the previous thread:

Quote:
CO953 From United States of America, joined Jan 2013, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 273, posted Fri Mar 14 2014 20:24:22 your local time (34 minutes 9 secs ago) and read 5322 times:

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 267):
The very fact that we can't even agree on the factuality of what is presumably the last word heard from the plane (it was discussed early in theese threads, but how do you find something in here anymore?) makes a separate thread:

How unbelievably frustrating!

I have been scouring Google but cannot find any story about the "mumbling" being debunked, whereas the description of the last contact with the plane, with the "mumbling and static," is still in every major news story up to and including the present.

It is frustrating - oh yes!

So, I was reading back into the first 8 parts of this thread and tried to search the old goggle...

- I am not the only one who remembers that this was debunked (at a press conference, I presume). From thread #6:

Quote:
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9398 posts, RR: 42
Reply 108, posted Sun Mar 9 2014 16:58:19 your local time (5 days 3 hours 22 minutes ago) and read 73517 times:

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 103):
As stated before a pilot said he was in contact with the pilot at 1:30am

And that has been dismissed as untrue.

The story actually is still in many news reports. But no more than what was said in the initial NST-article. No name, further information or statements. And, what gives me hope for the state of my memory, it's not in Avherald, which I'd consider the most reliable source on that matter:

http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0

Quote:
Rumours like other crew establishing contact to the accident flight after radar contact was lost, phone contact to a mobile phone of one the passengers of the missing flight or the aircraft having landed in China or Vietnam, are false.

That's what we've got.

[Edited 2014-03-14 13:18:08]
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:18 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 1):
If in fact the Malaysian Air Force's radar return is MH 370, then the track should fall right on the line between two pings. Won't it?

Yeah that would make some sense route wise (blue line):

http://i.imgur.com/PwuVqzb.png
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
flyenthu
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:19 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 9):
This makes me much more comfortable with the westward flightpath hypothesis.

Need to make a correction. The INMARSTAT makes me much more comfortable with the fact that the plane was in flight for 5 some hours beyond radar drop-off. This should eliminate the catastrophic event theory when taken together with the ACARS and transponder shutdowns.

We are still not confident about the location nor 100% sure of the westward path; although it appears that westward path was likely.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:20 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
This scenario is so far-fetched that *it* sounds like the conspiracy theory at this point.

TWA800 -- central fuel tank explosion. Did they have any time to squawk anything to anyone ??

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy at all.
 
davidzill
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:21 pm

I'm sure all of the possible airfields have been checked out by now? That would quickly rule out landing somewhere. Does the ground crew keep a copy of the load sheet with fuel on board? But gee, this still just doesn't eliminate the theory of a landing, they could have landed for a quick refuel and unloading of passengers and cargo. This is such an unprecedented aviation mystery. In time with patience, intelligence assets will profile each and every passenger and crew member. I think if this is a human-factored sabotage or hijacking, it may end up being the most unsuspecting passengers or crew as the root cause. The U.S.S. Kidd should be arriving in the Indian Ocean about now, let's see what they come up with.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 3):
It's not our place to do that. Imagine if there was a plane crash in Iowa and when our investigation stalled, Russia instead just started holding press conferences about it and announcing their findings. How offensive would that be?

So to be clear, you are suggesting that not offending the local bureaucrats is a higher priority than conducting the most effective search, rescue, and recovery.

Another thing. Malaysia isn't the United States and the United States isn't Russia. If it offends the Malaysians that we have far more resources and capabilities to conduct a search, then who honestly cares?
 
ourboeing
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:24 pm

Do you think that any of the suspected landing strips/spots in those islands would have the length to handle a 772?

I am also hoping as everyone else for a positive outcome but am not too optimistic if you factor all the scenarios.
 
Mitico12
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:25 pm

Forgive my ignorance on the capabilities of the B777, but as may have been mentioned before, does this aircraft come with a system that automatically transmits data indicating that it has crashed?

If so, could that transmission ability be manipulated manually by someone on board?

I find it hard to believe that someone would do all this to crash an airplane and be silent about it. I'm certain that, above all, the perpetrator (if indeed it was comandeered) would be proud of himself and want to leave some sort of signature that was found...my two cents.
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting flyenthu (Reply 15):
This should eliminate the catastrophic event theory when taken together with the ACARS and transponder shutdowns.

I believe it has not been established that ACARS shut down.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
FltAdmiralRitt
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:26 pm

Regarding the Plane Following Navigation Way Points.

If you assume the pilots had cascading electrical failiures (comm.trans..etc), Things would have gotten very busy.
While trying to diagnose the problem, They could have placed the A/C on autopilot. and
set a preliminary navigation route, never intending to have it fully executed, since they assume
they would take control of the A/C when it was closer to Malasia. Before they got close to the coast.
the electrical problem became a FIRE problem. Now the pilots would be busy fighting this fire, and
in the smoke and confusion, they did not have the luxury of putting new navigtation instructions into the
flight computer before they were overwhelmed. The A/C could have kept flying for a long time before
Auto Pilot malfunctioned.
 
iberiadc852
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:28 pm

I asked before, but I didn't see answers. (Maybe because of the very long thread, but I anyway I'll try to be more clear)

What is the likehood of a non-777 pilot could have landed at night in a non-standard airport with transponders OFF?
(In order to discard the scenario of one pilot doing so, and also incapacitating his colleague)


On the other hand, thinking about the worst (not because I like but because I think it's necessary).
Which secret/hidden airports/airstrips which could hold a 777 for landing and taking off could be nearer places where nuclear weapons could be taken to?
variety is the spice of life; that's what made the "old times" so good
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:30 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18):
If it offends the Malaysians that we have far more resources and capabilities to conduct a search, then who honestly cares?

Yes, but if you keep looking in the wrong place then you're waisting your resources. More importantly, the FDR locating pingers will stop working soon.
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:31 pm

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 23):
Which secret/hidden airports/airstrips which could hold a 777 for landing and taking off could be nearer places where nuclear weapons could be taken to?

If we knew that they wouldn't be secret/hidden.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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seat55a
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:33 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 10):
The spot beams would provide a general area without even needing triangulation as the constellation doesn't require multiple satellites to work.

So if I understand correctly you ONLY get the general area and triangulation isn't even available, because the transmission is aimed and only one satellite gets it?
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2569
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 23):
What is the likehood of a non-777 pilot could have landed at night in a non-standard airport with transponders OFF?

Whether the Transponder was on or off makes zero difference to the pilot's ability to fly the thing.

Rgds
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
k83713
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:38 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 16):
TWA800 -- central fuel tank explosion. Did they have any time to squawk anything to anyone ??

Yes, but debris were found as logical consequence of that explosion. Here communication stopped, but no debris at the place where it stopped and not around in proximity.
 
ComeAndGo
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:35 pm

Quoting iberiadc852 (Reply 23):
What is the likehood of a non-777 pilot could have landed at night in a non-standard airport with transponders OFF?

What are the chances of a non 777 pilot making it into the cockpit after 9/11 ?

How about very slim. You're more likely going to have one of the pilots hijacking the flight to seek asylum in places like Burma.
 
tomlee
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:01 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:40 pm

Quoting seat55a (Reply 26):

Based on Inmarsat's website normally only one sat serves a large area (depending on the service) and the aiming is static as the sat basically sits locked with earth's rotation (geostationary) so in essence each beam, even the global large beams act like cell towers (fixed position/range) where the easy position info is basically whatever is within the range of the beam it is on.

If there is location data in the check in packets or if some network/signal math can be done to narrow it down more I'm not sure. Technically the spot beams overlap and if you look at the signal strengths of multiple fixed beams you could narrow down the position with just one sat. (Sounds sort of like triangulation but I don't know if that is possible or not)

The fastest/easily available info to inmarsat would not rely on triangulation.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1445
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:40 pm

What a bizarre case...

I suppose it could even be a plane flying a route programmed by a hijacker, before he committed suicide?

What if one of the pilots killed the other pilot in the cockpit, locked the door, programmed the route, and then killed himself? Would anyone ever get into the cockpit?
 
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RJAF
Posts: 215
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:40 pm

It would be great to know how much SAR capabilities have advanced (mainly in terms of high tech etc..)since the AF447 loss in 2009?
Chance favors the prepared mind
 
LTC8K6
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Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:41 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 29):
What are the chances of a non 777 pilot making it into the cockpit after 9/11 ?

How about very slim. You're more likely going to have one of the pilots hijacking the flight to seek asylum in places like Burma.

What if the crew had a habit of relaxing cockpit security and inviting passengers in?
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:41 pm

Quoting k83713 (Reply 28):
Yes, but debris were found as logical consequence of that explosion. Here communication stopped, but no debris at the place where it stopped and not around in proximity

Because TWA800 blew up into two pieces. Lots of debris ended up spilling into the sea. If the explosion was less powerful and the plane remained intact the debris field would be much smaller.
 
gipperPDX
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:42 pm

I dont understand folks saying that pilot suciide makes no sense because of the extra hours of flight towards the Indian Ocean. Seems to me there are several possible rationales for such an action by a suicidal crewmember, including, but not limited to:

1. Life insurance. Policies don't pay on suicides, for obvious reasons. So, hiding the wreckage / CVR / FDR and thus hiding proof of suicide would allow policy to be paid out to beneiciaries. If the intent was to hide the wreckage, he certainly has done a good job so far,

2. Last Hurrah. A suicidal pilot may well wish to take a joyride before ending it all. As others have said, he might wish to try out some maneuvers at the edge of the envelope.

3. Wacko. Any such suicide is obvioulsy also a mass murder. Mass murderers can and do try to play games and mock investigators (look how "smart" I am by hiding the wreckage)!

None of this means it definitely WAS suicide - there are numerous possible causes and we won't know for some time - but I did want to point out that suicide remains a viable possibility.
 
jcxroberts
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:41 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:44 pm

So were they (whoever they are) after the pane or what was on the plane ? We haven't heard a peep about cargo, just a few rumors.

If the target was cargo or people then the choice of flights was not predicated on who the pilots were. In other words, the pilots are not suspect.

If the target was the plane when the pilot was on a certain route, then it is something that could have been set up for many months. The pilots are suspect.
 
Mitico12
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:15 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:44 pm

The ocean is vast. My skepticism tells me that this thing hit the Indian Ocean last week. By now, unfortunately, parts of the airframe are like finding the pieces of shredded paper in a single bag of confetti thrown out the window of a NYC highrise and trying to look for them a week later.

Too much time was lost in the critical hours of this investigation. Too much time.
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 33):
What if the crew had a habit of relaxing cockpit security and inviting passengers in?

On a night flight with a bunch of Chinese ??
 
AT
Posts: 890
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:46 pm

Quoting GipperPDX (Reply 35):
dont understand folks saying that pilot suciide makes no sense because of the extra hours of flight towards the Indian Ocean. Seems to me there are several possible rationales for such an action by a suicidal crewmember, including, but not limited to:

1. Life insurance. Policies don't pay on suicides, for obvious reasons. So, hiding the wreckage / CVR / FDR and thus hiding proof of suicide would allow policy to be paid out to beneiciaries. If the intent was to hide the wreckage, he certainly has done a good job so far,

2. Last Hurrah. A suicidal pilot may well wish to take a joyride before ending it all. As others have said, he might wish to try out some maneuvers at the edge of the envelope.

3. Wacko. Any such suicide is obvioulsy also a mass murder. Mass murderers can and do try to play games and mock investigators (look how "smart" I am by hiding the wreckage)!

None of this means it definitely WAS suicide - there are numerous possible causes and we won't know for some time - but I did want to point out that suicide remains a viable possibility.

This is why the home of the flight crew needs to be searched and family members interviewed to the extent allowed by law. In the event it was just an accident, all that will come to naught; but if foul play by the crew was the cause, then this information will be pivotal.
 
tomlee
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:01 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:46 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 31):

If your asking if the stronger door can't be breached I'm sure with enough time/effort it could be as it was just hardened to increase the security rating as no door can be unbreakable. If people had hours to get past it then it is likely to fail at some point (physics has ways, and materials have limits).
 
huxrules
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:17 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:48 pm

Is there a way to determine if a 777 landed at IXZ. It looks like it was headed directly for it. With it's six wheeled bogeys it might make a different skid mark? Possibly to refuel in the dark?
 
davidzill
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:26 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:49 pm

A background of the Egypt air pilot showed he was being investigated for rape of a hotel employee and had several mistresses. His world appeared to be crumbling from underneath him.
 
kmot
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:45 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:50 pm

These threads are moving so quickly. Can someone give an updated with what we know... what we think... and so on?

Thanks
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 6907
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:53 pm

Quoting GipperPDX (Reply 35):

I dont understand folks saying that pilot suciide makes no sense because of the extra hours of flight towards the Indian Ocean. Seems to me there are several possible rationales for such an action by a suicidal crewmember, including, but not limited to:

Pilot suicide makes no sense to me and he seemed pretty upstanding. To me it has to be terrorist related. It makes no sense to try to kill everybody and hide the crash site. I don't think that makes any sense. I see it as one of the following.

Plane is hijacked and terrorist tells pilot to turn West...
1) Crew/passengers eventually attack hijacker and plane crashes in the process
2) Crew/passengers attack hijacker and he explodes bomb
3) The hijack was successful and the plane landed at an undisclosed location
4) Terrorists want the airplane to use as a weapon later and found somewhere to land it and execute the passengers

Most likely...the Malaysians are clueless and the plane is exactly where it is supposed to be at the bottom of the sea.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1445
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:53 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 38):
On a night flight with a bunch of Chinese ??

What does "Chinese" have to do with anything?

I have always wanted to see the view from the cockpit of an airliner at night.

Besides, we'd be talking about a hijacker posing as someone who wanted to see the cockpit, and a crew member known for allowing visits to happen.
 
fortunerunnner
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:31 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:54 pm

Quoting huxrules (Reply 41):
Is there a way to determine if a 777 landed at IXZ. It looks like it was headed directly for it. With it's six wheeled bogeys it might make a different skid mark? Possibly to refuel in the dark?

Zero or quit low possibility of landing in Port Blair, the airport as well as area around Andaman & Nicobars is controlled by Indian Defense forces and has 24x7 monitoring by Indians due to sensitive nature of it. They are afraid of Chinese incursions and surveillance activity and has all kinds of Navel and Airforce strategic assets located on those islands.
 
wilcal
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:59 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting kmot (Reply 43):

You miss the first post of this thread?
 
User avatar
ADent
Posts: 935
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting kmot (Reply 43):
These threads are moving so quickly. Can someone give an updated with what we know... what we think... and so on?

Thanks

There is a nice summary in post one of this thread. Thanx mods for posting that.

TL;DR - No new hard data. It is widely suspected the satellite link was still alive for 4-5 hours after the plane disappeared (ie transponder shut off). There is sporadic primary radars returns of interest, but no hard conclusions can be made from the data.
 
Hywel
Posts: 703
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:51 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24

Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 45):
What does "Chinese" have to do with anything?

The fact that some Malay people don't like the Chinese (just look at the way they treat Chinese Malay people in Malaysia itself)
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