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knope2001
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Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:05 am

Five more cities leaving the Great Lakes system at Denver, though one is planned to come back:

Dickinson ends 3/25, UA* still serves
Williston ends 3/31, UA* still serves
Great Bend ends 3/31 and will have no service. SeaPort was just awarded GBD-ICT
Hays was just awarded to UA*/OO, transition from ZK to OO not yet determined

Telluride-Denver and Telluride-(Kingman)-Los Angeles ends 4/7, though TEX-DEN is planned to return in June

On the flipside Great Lakes was re-awarded Liberal and Dodge City, though DDC will now get 3x/day instead of 4x/day with the new contract.

Also, Page is getting a nonstop to Denver starting in April, essentially Page is replacing Telluride on the Denver-Los Angeles route via Kingman.

I went back 2010 -- what I think was likely the peak for Great Lakes in Denver for markets served, and ranked markets by traffic. They had 40 at the time and about 50% are gone. The mostly ill-fated linkage of small Montana cities to Denver were operating at the time and those are long gone, but a number of other lost markets were more meaty.

ZK 2010 full year DEN enplanements by destination (nonstop or "direct")
15163 ….. isn ….. gone
14255 ….. shr
14198 ….. riw
10251 ….. dik ….. gone
10032 ….. cys
9594 ….. fnm
9374 ….. ear
8693 ….. bff
8175 ….. gck ….. gone
8155 ….. hys ….. gone
7855 ….. lbf
7634 ….. gcc
7086 ….. lar ….. gone
6680 ….. als
6640 ….. gri ….. gone
6354 ….. cez
5866 ….. bil ….. gone
5365 ….. tex .....ending but planned to return in summer
5080 ….. pub ….. gone
4339 ….. vel ….. gone
4266 ….. lbl
4151 ….. pir
2793 ….. cny ….. gone
2713 ….. ddc
2413 ….. sdy ….. gone
2389 ….. wrl
2103 ….. rks ….. gone
2097 ….. hon
1945 ….. mck
1898 ….. prc ….. gone (no longer lnked to DEN)
1850 ….. cdr
1818 ….. pga
1474 ….. aia
1010 ….. mls ….. gone
817 ….. gbd ….. gone
524 ….. lwt ….. gone
382 ….. hvr ….. gone
339 ….. ggw ….. gone
328 ….. gdv ….. gone
239 ….. ely ….. gone

One final comparison. December 2013 is the latest month available so I compared 12/2010 to 12/2013 for Denver departing passengers per week:

8092 weekly DEN enplanements in 2010
2996 weekly DEN enplanements in 2013
 
HAJFlyer
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RE: Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Sat Mar 15, 2014 5:16 am

ZK is not really doing itself a favor by changing its route network and schedule on an almost weekly basis. I wonder how long UA will maintaining its codeshare agreement under these circumstances.

Just a personal example: I booked a flight from LAX to FMN in late May via united.com

1.) Initially it was a direct flight with on ZK a stop in PRC
2.) Then it was rebooked to LAX-DEN-FMN (the first leg on UA; the second on ZK)
3.) Then the timing for the DEN-FMN leg was changed several times
3.) Now it is LAX-PHX-SOW-FMN (LAX-PHX on UA; the remainder on ZK)

I wonder what the routing it will be by the time I actually fly or whether ZK will be gone for good by then.
My past experiences with them on routes such as Vegas to Ely were really OK, but it seems to me that they have gone completely haywire since the new FAA rules came into effect.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:47 am

No shock that they are leaving ISN and DIK, with UA and DL coming into the marketplace due to large increase in need for seats.

Nice to see Hays get SkyWest service.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
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knope2001
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RE: Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:07 am

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 2):
No shock that they are leaving ISN and DIK, with UA and DL coming into the marketplace due to large increase in need for seats.

I forgot to bring up the mx base in Williston, which was thought to be why ZK kept a DEN-ISN and DEN-DIK-ISN flight. With how things are up there, though, I wonder if they could pay mechanics enough to live and what it cost to put crews up overnight. Rental housing is Manhattan-expensive up there these days.

Probably easier and cheaper to move that work elsewhere.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:06 pm

I always wondered why ZK didn't set up shop at DFW. Seems like there are a lot of markets that they could do well in.
It is what it is...
 
CyberEntomology
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RE: Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:02 pm

I flew Seaport MCI-MEM once (via HRO), and was generally a pleasant experience. The lack of having to deal with TSA and having my eye on 3 large Pelican cases with very valuable cargo the entire time made up for flying in a fairly spartan PC12 configuration. The PC12 is a pretty nice bird when it's fitted with an executive interior, though. All the performance of a King Air, with half the engines and a lot less fuel burn.

It'll be interesting to see how the rural Kansas EAS market shakes out. Reportedly Seaport will also add service GBD-SLN-MCI, which seems logical, given that it wouldn't make much sense to have a GBD-ICT shuttle as an island in their system, given that SLN is all of 63nm away, and ICT is 79nm. That's a short flight no matter how you slice it, SLN-MCI is scheduled for just a hair over an hour. (I believe the Kansas routes are flown in a slower C208, though).
 
point2point
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RE: Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:28 pm

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 1):
were really OK, but it seems to me that they have gone completely haywire since the new FAA rules came into effect.

Somehow, no matter what there was to be written here about ZK, they somehow went about their business despite waiting for some shoe to drop at just about every turn. They moved pax to and from some of the most rural parts of the country here in the West, and at some points, they were really the only alternative to do so. Balloon payments, maintenance requirements, etc..... they somehow managed better than a cat with nine lives.

And yes, despite these new FAA rules.... they're still hanging in there as best they can.

Quoting knope2001 (Thread starter):
8092 weekly DEN enplanements in 2010
2996 weekly DEN enplanements in 2013

Sad to see such decline. It's questionable if ZK will ever get back to their former status, because the big shoe still waiting to fall with them is their fleet.... going back to the age of the dinosaurs.... and even redoing their EM2s to become 9-seaters still doesn't make their planes any younger.

I guess ZK had a great run at DEN and throughout the West while it lasted...... I just wonder that if they are unable to reshape themselves into some formidable structure, will some of these small Midwest-West communities be able to regain air service?

 
 
tyler81190
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RE: Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:55 pm

Quoting CyberEntomology (Reply 5):
(I believe the Kansas routes are flown in a slower C208, though).

SLN-MCI is a PC-12
 
CyberEntomology
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RE: Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:48 am

SeaPort has said that GBD-ICT will be a C208 for now, and they haven't decided if they're going to link up GBD and SLN.
 
iowaman
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RE: Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:44 am

Quoting HAJFlyer (Reply 1):
ZK is not really doing itself a favor by changing its route network and schedule on an almost weekly basis. I wonder how long UA will maintaining its codeshare agreement under these circumstances.

The reliability of Great Lakes over recent times is a real issue. They pulled their MSP ops quickly as well, yet they again applied for MCW-MSP service. I am sure there may be some bitter people with the quick cancellation of service in these EAS cities if ZK ever wants to return.

Quoting MtnWest1979 (Reply 2):
No shock that they are leaving ISN and DIK, with UA and DL coming into the marketplace due to large increase in need for seats.

Those two greatly needed the capacity increase due to the oil boom. Glad they are not left high and dry.
 
MountainFlyer
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RE: Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:00 pm

Quoting iowaman (Reply 9):

Those two greatly needed the capacity increase due to the oil boom. Glad they are not left high and dry.

They never would have left ISN for sure and probably not DIK either if DL and UA hadn't come it. ISN was far and away their largest station before DL and UA came in, and DIK was #4 according to the list above.

If anything, DL and UA coming to ISN and pushing ZK out is helping to speed up ZK 's demise, but only slightly.
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tyler81190
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RE: Great Lakes Ending DIK, GBD, HYS, ISN, Temp TEX

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:04 pm

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 10):
They never would have left ISN for sure and probably not DIK either if DL and UA hadn't come it. ISN was far and away their largest station before DL and UA came in, and DIK was #4 according to the list above.

If anything, DL and UA coming to ISN and pushing ZK out is helping to speed up ZK 's demise, but only slightly.

But DL and UA can now make money on the routes. The ZK business model is to serve cities that require government subsidies, where they are the only carrier on the route usually.

ZK cannot handle competition, it is not UA's fault or DL's fault that ZK is in poor shape.