jetblueguy22
Topic Author
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:53 am

Due to length part 30 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 31:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

**********************************************************************************************


**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

***********************************************************************************************


SOME IMPORTANT REMINDERS FOR ALL OUR MEMBERS TO CONSIDER BEFORE POSTING IN THIS THREAD:

**** Out of respect to the crew, passengers and also family members; close to those onboard MH370; please keep science fiction theories and content related to past / current movies or possible future movie rights out of these threads. ****

**** PLEASE DO NOT REPEAT QUESTIONS AND SCENARIOS THAT HAS BEEN COVERED AND DISCUSSED IN PREVIOUS THREADS AND WHICH DO NOT CONTRIBUTE OR APPLY, IN A CONSTRUCTIVE MANNER, TOWARDS THIS CONVERSATION ANY LONGER. ****

**** Please make an effort to read through some of the threads, if possible the latest in the series, before adding your own comments and theories to the current, active thread on this issue. ****

**** PLEASE BE RESPECTFUL TOWARDS OTHER USERS AND KEEP THE FORUM RULES AND REGULATIONS IN MIND WHEN POSTING IN THE FORUMS. SHOULD THERE BE ANY RULE VIOLATIONS, PLEASE BRING THIS TO THE ATTENTION OF THE MODERATORS BY MAKING USE OF THE “SUGGEST DELETION FUNCTION”. ****

**** WHEN STATING FACTS, STATISTICS OR NEWSWORTHY BULLETINS, PLEASE BE SURE TO INCLUDE AN HTML LINK OR REFERENCE TO A PUBLICATION. IF YOU ARE MERELY PROVIDING AN OPINION, PLEASE MENTION THIS IN YOUR POST. ALL MEMBERS ARE RESPONSIBLE TO AVOID ARGUMENTS BASED ON RUMORS OR MISINFORMATION




Enjoy the forums!

Regards and thanks for your co-operation,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17093
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:56 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 317):

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 314):
Pretty neat graphic summary. Click to open larger version.

The graphic says, "US officials said data showed MH370's engines operated for up to four hours after its transponder went dark." That data had to go via ACARS, right?

Yes. Positing that this item is true, the data would have been generated by ACARS and sent with SATCOM.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1444
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:56 am

If this question was asked, I didn't see it. I have read almost all of the threads.

If there were a portable ELT on board, and the crew triggered it, would it have helped track the plane?

Assuming they could actually get to it, were free to try to use it, and could maybe hold it near a window...
 
hivue
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Yes. Positing that this item is true, the data would have been generated by ACARS and sent with SATCOM.

Bringing into question previous statements that ACARS was disabled prior to the transponder shutting down?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12391
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:00 am

One issue that is causing a lot heat from China with this lost aircraft is that the family members in China don't have the bodies of their presumably dead family members so is disrupting their ability to mourn their death. In their culture, as well as with others like Orthodox Judaism it is a necessity to have a body to have a funeral and properly process their loss.
This article I saw Saturday on Yahoo discusses this side issue. This was a serious problem after 9/11 when many bodies were lost in the fires of the collapsed WTC towers.
http://news.yahoo.com/chinese-famili...MDNARjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1FJMDQ5XzE-
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1444
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 3):
Bringing into question previous statements that ACARS was disabled prior to the transponder shutting down?

ACARS via VHF might have been disabled, but the SATCOM channel left available?
 
socalgeo
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:01 am

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 257):
Did the aircraft have enough range to fly due south of SriLanka and then onto Somalia? Is that a theory being considered and looked at?

I really don't think so. Seems to me with a range of ~3000 stat miles after the last radar contact that route would leave them close to 500 miles short.

Map:http://sandbox.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=95cbede59b3e471eb14b52c362966934




SoCalGeo

[Edited 2014-03-16 20:11:38]

[Edited 2014-03-16 20:13:01]
 
philask
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:24 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 4):

One issue that is causing a lot heat from China with this lost aircraft is that the family members in China don't have the bodies of their presumably dead family members so is disrupting their ability to mourn their death. In their culture, as well as with others like Orthodox Judaism it is a necessity to have a body to have a funeral and properly process their loss.

I'd say that the latest revelations should give them more hope that the passengers are still alive, stating that they're dead at this point (without any evidence) is premature.
 
edmountain
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:00 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:04 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 3):
Bringing into question previous statements that ACARS was disabled prior to the transponder shutting down?

Indeed. If true then there's a huge contradiction in the data to the public thus far.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18977
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:10 am

Quoting philask (Reply 7):
I'd say that the latest revelations should give them more hope that the passengers are still alive,

What revelations are you referring to?
 
imagoagnitio
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:22 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:10 am

Quoting socalgeo (Reply 6):

I think you are correct, they would have been a bit short, assuming fuel load we are basing most theories on

or they were not refueled in Sri Lanka by the Tamil
 
tapir
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:07 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:14 am

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 10):
or they were not refueled in Sri Lanka by the Tamil

What Tamils? The tigers were wiped out 5 years ago.
 
User avatar
AirIndia
Posts: 1071
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 2:43 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:18 am

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 10):
they were not refueled in Sri Lanka by the Tamil

The LTTE in the past have carried out aerial attacks (unsuccessfully).... so they are heavily scrutinised, virtually impossible to land any plane on tamil stronghold....

especially since

Quoting Tapir (Reply 11):
The tigers were wiped out 5 years ago.
 
rcair1
Crew
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:39 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:19 am


Sanity Check - 3/17/14 0300Z
There is (will be) a link to this post in my profile under "homepage"

3/17/14 0300Z update.
The facts have not changed much, however speculation and discussion has shifted to potential human actors - including crew.
I've tried to be as factually accurate as I can - but I'm not an expert in each system - so if there factual errors please advise.
I've added sections on: Cargo, Fuel, Conspiracies, Pilot related conspiracy. I've bolstered ACARS/SATCOM.
Added primary/secondary Radar discussion
Updated SATCOM Pings section related to recent "it may have landed" comments.
Added comments on cyber-hijack theory.

First a synopsis
The ship took off normally and headed on course to Beijing
The last ACARS transmission was 01:07 local. Confusion continues about if and when ACARS was turned off (See ACARS below)
The last comms were a normal hand-off from Malaysia to Vietnam control at about 1:30 local. It was a normal 'good night' on the Malaysian side, but Vietnam was not contacted.
NOTE: Saying "good night" or "so long" or "see you" or "Go Broncos" (okay not that one) is very common for handoffs.
The aircraft dropped off secondary radar with no communication from the cockpit.
There are reports of a climb to 45K, uneven descent and some changes in altitude. Since this is based on primary radar - altitude data is somewhat uncertain. The last has been reported as 29,500ft but that seems in dispute.
There are subsequent primary radar returns west over Malacca Straight and then north west. Since it is primarily radar - a reflection - it does identify the a/c, however it has been correlated with SATCOM pings so confidence is high that the returns are from MH370
SATCOM system pings continued for 7+ (last ping at 08:11 local) hrs after LOS (loss of signal)
SATCOM pings do not locate the aircraft but based on correlation to signal strength there are two loci that indication aircraft distance from the Satellite.
These are not paths and I have changed my language to reflect that. They represent a distance from the satellite.
Loci one is north over Andaman Sea, Bay of Bengal as far as Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and is consistent with primary radar.
Loci two is south over the India Ocean west of Australia. We've had no reports of radar signals in that area.
The last SATCOM ping was at 8:11 am Malaysian time. At that time it would be dark on the north radius and light over the south radius.
Best data I have is SATCOM pings are hourly - so the 8:11 ping could be up to 1 hour before the aircraft stopped 'pinging'.
We have no ELT signal detected.
While authorities (Malaysian) have not confirmed this is a hijacking or purposeful event - it is believed that is highly likely by most, however, motivation is unknown.
Debris reported by Greek oil tanker has already been reported as not relevant.
Recent reports attributed to the FBI that the plane 'could have landed' and sent a satellite signal from the ground appear to be just confirming what we already knew - that the SATCOM pings could come from an a/c in flight, or powered up on the ground..
There have been no reports that a Rolls Royce EH report was sent upon landing.

ACARS
ACARS is an automated aircraft communication system that transmits a/c information, primarily maintenance information, to maintenance facilities like the airline, Boeing, Engine Manf, etc.
ACARS is NOT a flight system - it is not needed for safe flight.
ACARS is a subscription service and costs money. All indications are the MH370 was subscribed only to engine health monitoring and data from that is sent to Rolls Royce.
ACARS communicates via VHF or SATCOM (and maybe Wifi at the gate). The communications channel depends on availability and is independent of the ACARS.
ACARS can be instructed not to use SATCOM or VHF from the Cockpit. This would effectively stop ACARS from sending data. Access to the EE bay is not required.
The Malaysian prime minister said (quote):
"We can say with a high degree of certainty that the Aircraft Communication Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) was disabled just before the reached the East coast of Peninsula Malaysia".
No explanation of how that determination could be made has been released.
OPINION: The most likely conjecture I've seen is that ACARS was using VHF comms at that point and some indication of ACARS ceasing communication via VHF can be made. However, this has not been confirmed and it seems to me this could be consistent with ACARS swapping to SATCOM mode?

ACARS data from MH370
The ACARS system sent 2 engine health reports to Rolls Royce, both prior to the LOS event.
The Rolls Royce page seems to indicate that a 'snapshot' of engine data would be sent at: takeoff, climb, cruise and landing. We know 2 ACARS Engine Health reports were received, so that would be consistent with the 1st two.
Based on this, we would expect a cruise and landing report. We have heard of neither.
The Engine Health report received prior to LOS had 'interesting' altitude data/fluctuations including 40K drop in a minute. That data is suspect.
Since no "landing" report was received, then either the ACARS communication was disabled, or the a/c did not land.
We have not heard if ACARS would send a report upon fuel starvation flame-out.
The summary at(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bi2S3l7CcAAPLb3.jpg:large) says: "US officials said data showed MH370's engines operated for up to 4 hours after its transponders went dark. NOTE: I think this summary - while good - is dated.
This seems consistent with the SATCOM data being sent by the plane - which would stop if the plane (engines) were shut down.
Opinion: in absence of actual engine data being sent - which has not been reported - this may be just a different way to say what has been said.

SATCOM
SATCOM is a communications channel - Satellite Communications. It is a radio system that uses satellites to communicate various information.
SATCOM is not ACARS - it is one of the channels ACARS can use.
The SATCOM system on MH370 was connecting to Inmarsat 3 satellites. In the area covered, the only satellite with coverage is IOR.
Big version: Width: 720 Height: 516 File size: 199kb
Since only 1 satellite has coverage, no triangulation is possible. All that can be determined is distance from the satellite. This has been used to define 2 potential loci were the a/c could have been.
Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 768 File size: 91kb
NOTE: While these may appear as paths - they are not. They are simply a set of potential locations based upon ping data. The aircraft could have been in a constant standard turn circle somewhere along one of the loci (red lines) and the satellite could not tell. We only know it was somewhere along those lines.

SATCOM Pings
The SATCOM system sends (or responds to) periodic 'pings' to/from the satellites. These 'pings' are a network communication that says "I am here."
SATCOM pings are not communicating a/c status, they are part of the communications channel. They are akin to registration pings on a cell system.
The last pings were detected at 8:11am Malaysia time. This does not mean the aircraft went down or landed at this time, only that the last ping was 8:11. Source I've seen indicate the pings are hourly - but that is not confirmed.
SATCOM pings provide no aircraft heading, speed or altitude information, however, distance from the Satellite can be estimated, and ONLY distance.
Based on analysis of the SATCOM pings by Inmarsat, two possible loci have been predicted based upon a radius from the satellite picking up the pings.
SATCOM pings would be sent as long as the system (aircraft) was power up and withing coverage area. So, on the ground, if powered up (thanks to mandala499).
People have asked if SATCOM pings could come from a crashed plane if the right parts survived.
Very unlikely. The system is not self contained, the equipment, power and antennas are separate.
Recent news about the fact that the plane could have landed really appears to be just a restatement of known data.
Specifically - the SATCOM pings could have been sent from an aircraft powered, but landed - or from an aircraft in flight.
Again: These pings to not contain ANY data about the aircraft position, speed, altitude, etc.
The 'location' data inferred from the SATCOM pings is based analysis of those signals which gives an approximate distance from the satallite to the a/c.
Since the satellite is in geosynchronous orbit (~22,000 miles), the difference in distance between a flying aircraft and one on the ground is probably not measurable.

CRV/FDR Data
The CVR (cockpit voice recorder) and FDR (flight data recorder) do not transmit data in flight.
They do emit sonic pings if immersed. These will last a minimum of 30 days. We can expect sonar is being used to listen for them.
The CVR reportedly is a 120 minute CVR so it would contain only the last 120 minutes of flight (presuming it did not fail or was turned off prior to that).
I don't have data form the recording time of the FDR, but it is typically much longer.

Primary versus Secondary Radar (brief tutorial)
Primary radar is based on the original military usage. It sends out a strong (KW to MW) signal and looks for a reflection from something.
Primary radar provides distance and location. Comparing returns speed can be determined. Strength of return can indicate size.
Stealth a/c and ships are designed to absorb or miss-direct the reflection so primary radar cannot see them.
Primary radar does not depend on the transponder, so turning off a transponder will not make an a/c disappear from primary.
Primary radar is less prevalent than secondary - and more typically military tho ATC's do use it.
Secondary Radar is really not Radar in the defined sense. It is directional communication.
In secondary radar a directional signal is sent out (much less powerful than primary). Any a/c with a transponder that receives it will respond (the transponder responds) with information about the aircraft.
Combined with the direction of the outgoing beam, the time of flight information and returned information, the a/c location and identity (and other info depending on the mode) is returned.
Secondary radar is the primary method used by ATC.
If the transponder fails or is turned off - secondary radar will not see the a/c.
In the case of MH370
The transponder was turned off - so the a/c disappeared from secondary (ATC) radar.
A target was tracked west, then northwest using primary radar. That target was correlated with SATCOM pings help determine it was MH370.

Way-point Tracks
The use of way-points to the navigate are conjecture. They happen to line up with the direction indicated by the primary radar returns and Inmarsat data to the north.
While many believe the aircraft was under control - we cannot conclude if these way-point were used, or just along the path.

Airworthiness Directive
The airworthiness directive about corrosion near the SATCOM antenna does not apply to this ship.
The ship DOES have SATCOM - but uses a different antenna

Cargo and Lithium Battery Fires.
There are reports that the cargo in MH370 did not receive normal X-ray screening.
There are also statements that the shipment held nothing hazardous or remarkable.
There are reports of a shipment of lithium batteries on the a/c and that perhaps they caused a fire.
It seems very unlikely a fire could be intense enough to disable the crew, but then the a/c would survive and fly for 7+ hours.
Opinion: as a firefighter, I doubt this. The fire would destroy the a/c.

Aircraft Fuel State
It is reported the aircraft 45 to 60 minutes extra fuel. This would amount to about 7-7.5 hrs of fuel. This is a normal amount for this route.

Search Areas (including those that have be halted)
Along the planed route. I believe searching in this area is ending or decreasing based on new data indicating the a/c is not there
West over the Malacca straight
North west of Malacca straight
Along the two loci predicted by the SATCOM pings which continue north to Kazakhstan/Turkmenistan and south to the India Ocean.
These are huge search areas - I do not have a good handle on what assets are deployed where
It appears the north loci is considered more likely because of primary radar signals that roughly correlate.
I would expect review of primary radar west of Australia is in process if not done.

Mobile phones
We continue to have lots of discussion on "mobile phones" - can the connect in flight, etc.
We don't have any reports or evidence of that any passenger or crew mobile phone has registered with any network.
Until we have that data or reports - I believe the mobile phone discussions are not useful.

Conspiracy Theories
There are lots of conspiracy theories out there - from the Malaysian government hiding something to pilot suicide, to hijacking to whatever.
The breadth of the countries searching alone makes me discount many of the government is hiding it aspects.
It is likely there are covert (secret) resources in the area that are trying to provide the info without revealing themselves.
Currently, it seems most believe there is some positive action here - hijacker or crew based.
Opinion: Mostly, I believe this is because a mechanical failure that selectively terminates communication, incapacitates the crew/passengers, but then allows the a/c to fly on uncontrolled for 7 hours seems unlikely.
Investigations of crew have begun in earnest.
Despite the belief this is incident required human actions - we have no evidence of that. Rather - no other theory seems credible.
Some of the more prevalent.
The pilot (senior, not FO) hijacked the plane to commit suicide. (See Pilot Conspiracy below).
Freescale engineers have been hijacked for sensitive US data. As an engineer who has worked with Freescale - I find that unsupportable. Companies send groups of employees around all the time. While many companies have policies about the # of executives on a flight - that typically is not enforced on regular employees.
There was something in the Cargo worth stealing - which is why it was not screened. Note: this makes no sense to me. It would require involvement of lots of people on the ground and it would be much easier to steal, on the ground.
The US hijacked the 777 using onboard FBW technology to fly it like a drone to Diego Garcea (this one wins the insanity case).
Related: There has been a claim by counter terrorist expert that this could be a "cyber hijack" - a malicious attack of a FBW a/c. I don't know where to go with this - only reporting it because I'm trying to stay ahead of the next craze. Opinion: (speaking as an EE) this is the stuff dreams are made of (bad dreams).

Pilot Related Conspiracy Theories (some of this is my opinion).
The crew and passengers are a focus of investigation. Particularly the crew, because of the difficulty of managing an external cockpit intrusion.
The pilot has received a lot of attention because: 1) He supports opposition politics, 2) He has a mongo flight simulator, 3) There are rumors of family problems (debunked).
To address the data on a few of these:
1) The pilot supports opposition politics and may have been at a trial of the opposition leader (confirmed 'ordinary' member of opposition party). Opinion: What is the motive for suicide in this case?
2) The pilot has a very fancy flight simulator. People claim he used it to for this. Opinion: A 777 pilot does not need to train for the flying done - he knows how to do that stuff already. What he needs it planning for violent action/takeover. A flight simulator is no help.
3) There are rumors of family problems reported from China. This has been reported as untrue - and generated laughter in the latest pressor.

IN summary what we know is. (This has NOT changed)
The a/c disappeared from secondary radar and stopped communicating. We do not know why or what happened to it.
There is evidence from SATCOM and Radar that the a/c traveled west - then most likely north west.
SATCOM signals show the a/c was operating till at least 8:11am Malaysia time, over 7 hrs total flight time
We have not found it despite multiple governmental agencies from multiple countries searching hard.

What seems likely.
A hijacking or positive intervention by human agency seems likely.
The erratic altitude and course may indicate a struggle on board.
While we would like to believe the a/c landed safely somewhere, that seems unlikely to have happened unobserved.


That is all.
Respectfully Submitted - rcair1


[Edited 2014-03-16 20:48:25]
rcair1
 
imagoagnitio
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:22 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:20 am

Quoting Tapir (Reply 11):

and yet, two days ago the police in Sri Lanka arrested a prominent Tamil activist source http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26577956
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:21 am

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 10):
or they were not refueled in Sri Lanka by the Tamil

Aside from the fact that the LTTE were shut down in 2009, what runway would they control that could be used to refuel a wide body? It's not a large country.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3081
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:22 am

To those willing to crucify the captain let me put some holes in your theory:

Let say for a minute this guy as as cold as ice and prepared to kill 200+ souls in order to prove a point (whatever that may be), he knew that going over malaysian airspace would bring on the jet interceptors, more so if something was amiss with comms or transponders.

In my view is easier to entertain that someone entered the cabin and took the plane and ordered the pilots to make some changes and they crossed the peninsula on PURPOSE, but alas! the guys in command were sleepy (to say the least).
something happened maybe they wanted to incapacitate the culprit by depresurissing the 777 and something went wrong and we got to a helios scenario.

We might never know what happened because that triple 7 is resting in the bottom of the sea thousands of miles from land...

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
flyorski
Posts: 725
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:23 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:29 am

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 16):
To those willing to crucify the captain let me put some holes in your theory:

Thank you. With a lack of hard evidence I find it disheartening people are so quick to assume the pilot acted in malice. Truth is we simply do not know.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
tapir
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:07 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:29 am

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 14):

I didnt say Tamils got wiped out. What are you trying to say here. MH370 landed in areas controlled by the Tigers? The answer is NO. The war has ended and no secret rebel held area existed in SL for MH370 to land. Regarding the arrest (which is not relevant to aviation matter) please watch Channel 4 - The killing field so that you get a clearer picture why MH370 couldn't have landed there unless of course on the invitation of SL.

[Edited 2014-03-16 20:30:40]
 
hivue
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:29 am

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 13):
ACARS data from MH370

Can you update to reflect the quote from the graphic at https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bi2S3l7CcAAPLb3.jpg:large at the end of the previous part which indicated that "US officials said data showed MH370's engines operated for up to four hours after its transponder went dark."
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 2357
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:30 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
The graphic says, "US officials said data showed MH370's engines operated for up to four hours after its transponder went dark." That data had to go via ACARS, right?

Yes. Positing that this item is true, the data would have been generated by ACARS and sent with SATCOM

They're not saying the engines were running because they got engine data via ACARS, they're saying if the engines weren't running there wouldn't be any electrical power to ping the satellite.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:33 am

Quoting imagoagnitio (Reply 10):
they would have been a bit short, assuming fuel load we are basing most theories on

or they were not refueled in Sri Lanka by the Tamil

I'd be surprised they could get help from the Tamil (if the Tamil even wanted to, which we have not heard) without the Sri Lanka Govt tracking them on radar (the big yellow circle over the whole Island). When I pulled the radar locations from the ICAO web site I paid particular attention to that radar site because I was considering the possibility of an over flight of the island. But the radar for Sri Lanka is on the top of Mt. Pidurutalagala, which from what I can tell is the highest point on the island, which I think might limit the ability to fly thru a shadow from terrain (I'm no radar expert, but as I collected and mapped radar site locations last night I felt that there were a lot that are positioned so that there would not be a full 360 degree view, due to terrain). And there seems to be some overlap of Indian radar over parts of the northern area of the island. You can see the radar site if you change the base map on the live map from National Geographic to Imagery with Labels, and zoom in to the center of that yellow circle... you can turn the yellow circles off with the layer button..

SoCalGeo
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 2357
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:34 am

[quote=LTC8K6,reply=2]


If this question was asked, I didn't see it. I have read almost all of the threads.

If there were a portable ELT on board, and the crew triggered it, would it have helped track the plane?

Assuming they could actually get to it, were free to try to use it, and could maybe hold it near a window...

Quote:

One in the survival lit in each slide/raft I believe.
 
hivue
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:36 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 20):
They're not saying the engines were running because they got engine data via ACARS, they're saying if the engines weren't running there wouldn't be any electrical power to ping the satellite.

OK, that makes sense. But why four hours instead of the seven hours till the last ping at 8:11L?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
socalgeo
Posts: 50
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:56 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:40 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 23):
OK, that makes sense. But why four hours instead of the seven hours till the last ping at 8:11L?

I think that it is 7-7.5 hours for the whole flight. The last radar contact by the Pinang radar was at 2:15 AM, 200 miles NW of Penang. The plan flew on until 8:11 AM Malaysia Time. That's pretty cl;ose to 6 hours after loss of radar contact.

SoCalGeo
 
jelliesR
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:46 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:41 am

Quoting flyorski (Reply 17):
he knew that going over malaysian airspace would bring on the jet interceptors,

The SMH reports now that he did some "terrain following" (low altitude flying over land) so maybe he was fully aware of the risks and was trying to avoid triggering radar.

I was in the camp that the pilot should get the benefit of the doubt and mechanical hypotheses come first. After 7 days with no better explanations and a lot of flags from the life of the pilot in command it is inevitable to come round to a belief he is likely the culprit of course it is far from proven but it seems far and away the most straightforward explanation.
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1453
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:42 am

Quoting socalgeo (Reply 6):
Did the aircraft have enough range to fly due south of SriLanka and then onto Somalia? Is that a theory being considered and looked at?

I really doubt it. Besides, there are probably only 2 runways in Somalia capable of landing it and I am sure by now US Satellites have snapped pictures. Worse yet, that area is under heavy US maritime surveillance due to piracy. I am sure they would have picked up a lone 777 w/o a transponder and shot at it. They shot at a A300 with a transponder on after all (ouch low blow, I know).

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 16):
incapacitate the culprit by depresurissing the 777 and something went wrong and we got to a helios scenario.

U know thats a distinct possibility and I too thought of a similar scenario. Captain Shah was so experienced he might have tried to THWART an attempted hijacking by programming a route far away from land and trying to disable the attackers via the 45k FL and de-pressurization. Maybe he didn't get his mask on time and it backfired. I mean if you're an experienced pilot and you're trying to thwart someone in the cockpit from a Malaysian 9-11 what else do you do? Go high and go out to sea.
 
edmountain
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:00 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:42 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 19):
Can you update to reflect the quote from the graphic at https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bi2S3l7CcAAPLb3.jpg:large at the end of the previous part which indicated that "US officials said data showed MH370's engines operated for up to four hours after its transponder went dark."

I've looked into it a bit more and I believe the graphic is confabulating ACARS data with SATCOM pings.

Edit: Specifically, I believe the graphic is referencing the old data that was leaked suggesting "up to four hours later." That is all prior to the PM's revelation of 0811h last ping during his press conference.

[Edited 2014-03-16 20:45:43]
 
hivue
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:44 am

Quoting socalgeo (Reply 24):
Quoting hivue (Reply 23):OK, that makes sense. But why four hours instead of the seven hours till the last ping at 8:11L?

I think that it is 7-7.5 hours for the whole flight. The last radar contact by the Pinang radar was at 2:15 AM, 200 miles NW of Penang. The plan flew on until 8:11 AM Malaysia Time. That's pretty cl;ose to 6 hours after loss of radar contact.

I should probably rephrase to why four hours instead of the six hours till the last ping at 8:11L?
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
YWG
Posts: 1055
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:29 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:45 am

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned or not, but finding the plane will only be half the mystery.

If someone is smart enough to disable the ACARS and transponder, then odds are they would have thought to pull the cockpit voice recorder, flight data recorder as well as the quick access recorder circuit breakers. It's not hard and has been done before.
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
hivue
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:46 am

Quoting edmountain (Reply 27):
I've looked into it a bit more and I believe the graphic is confabulating ACARS data with SATCOM pings.

It seems to me that something has gotten "confabulated."
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
PHX Flyer
Posts: 534
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 9:52 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:48 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 23):
But why four hours instead of the seven hours till the last ping at 8:11L?

I have two questions:

1. What's the time interval between the pings?
2. Were the pings recorded in regular intervals up until 8:11, or was there a gap?

If the pings were regular, the aircraft may have been airborne until 8:11.
If there was a gap, it means the engines were shut down, and later - at least briefly - powered up again. The latter scenario would essentially rule out a destruction of the aircraft
 
hivue
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:49 am

Quoting YWG (Reply 29):
then odds are they would have thought to pull the cockpit voice recorder

And thereby immortalize all sounds from the flight deck up to that point (given that the CVR is ever recovered)? As others have pointed out a number of times they would just need to leave the CVR running and it would overwrite itself.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
rcair1
Crew
Posts: 1121
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:39 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:51 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 19):
Can you update to reflect the quote from the graphic at

Done

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 22):
If there were a portable ELT on board, and the crew triggered it, would it have helped track the plane?

I don't know about a portable ELT - but the planes ELT can be triggered by the pilots.
Do you mean an ELT, like in a life raft triggered by the cabin crew? I don't know if that would work - but seems likely if you held it by a windows.

But - no ELT signals have been received so, sadly, it is a mute point.
rcair1
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1444
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:55 am

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 34):
But - no ELT signals have been received so, sadly, it is a mute point.

I know none were heard. I was just wondering if this was a viable way for the crew to possibly communicate distress.

Theoretically, could it work?
 
edmountain
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:00 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:56 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 28):
I should probably rephrase to why four hours instead of the six hours till the last ping at 8:11L?

I think the confabulation was further confounded by confusing the phrases "data was sent for hours" versus "data was sent for four hours" versus "data was sent four hours." The interwebs are full of each permutation. But I don't think any of it matters because it was all obviated by the 0811h datum.

[Edited 2014-03-16 20:59:12]
 
tim73
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:03 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:57 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 37):
So the flying into space theory was right after all.

Exactly. How many 777 pilots have actually tried the Coffin corner?!  
 
terlanmat68
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:49 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:59 am

I apologize if this has already been discussed.

I understand that those two arcs are based on the final network ping, plotted using distance from the satellite.

What about the other, earlier network pings? Has distance from the satellite been plotted for all of the pings? I'm thinking that if that is available and there is an assumption of constant aircraft speed it may be possible to estimate how far along those arcs the plane may have traveled.
 
hivue
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:00 am

Quoting edmountain (Reply 39):
I think the confabulation was further confounded by confusing

Confusing and confounding confabulation has characterized this whole conundrum.  
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:02 am

Well the Israelis seem to think it's intact, and that Iran is somehow involved:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-el-a...rt-iran-likely-involved-in-mh-370/
 
User avatar
Joshu
Crew
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:05 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:04 am

The "Malaysian Insider" is reported that the plane flew as low as "1,500 feet" to avoid radar.

http://my.news.yahoo.com/mh370-flew-...void-detection-says-011918423.html

"Investigators poring over MH370’s flight data had said the plane had flown low and used “terrain masking” as it flew over the Bay of Bengal and headed north towards land, the NST reported."
Washington-Baltimore Spotters Group
 
hivue
Posts: 1627
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:04 am

Quoting edmountain (Reply 39):
But I don't think any of it matters because it was all obviated by the 0811h datum.

Agreed. I was just wondering if more data was being transmitted via satellite than just hourly stand by pings.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
edmountain
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:00 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:06 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):
U know thats a distinct possibility and I too thought of a similar scenario. Captain Shah was so experienced he might have tried to THWART an attempted hijacking by programming a route far away from land and trying to disable the attackers via the 45k FL and de-pressurization. Maybe he didn't get his mask on time and it backfired. I mean if you're an experienced pilot and you're trying to thwart someone in the cockpit from a Malaysian 9-11 what else do you do? Go high and go out to sea.

That's actually a fascinating idea and would reconcile several inconsistencies in other theories. Hard to prove though without finding the plane.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1444
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:10 am

Quoting JOshu (Reply 44):

I said earlier that the claim is confusing.

I doubt very much that they flew as low as 5,000 feet. They'd be burning a lot of fuel flying that low and then regaining altitude.

I think they may have dropped 5,000 feet in altitude.
 
User avatar
Joshu
Crew
Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:05 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:11 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 47):
I said earlier that the claim is confusing.

Thanks, hard to follow all of this.
Washington-Baltimore Spotters Group
 
tim73
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:03 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:12 am

Well, if you planned to do the heist of the century by hijacking and flying low and fast between mountains, the super enthuastic and very experienced pilot/instructor/inspector with the simulator at home would be your go-to guy.
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 2357
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:12 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 38):
I know none were heard. I was just wondering if this was a viable way for the crew to possibly communicate distress.

Theoretically, could it work?

Yes.
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 2357
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:14 am

Quoting tim73 (Reply 40):
Exactly. How many 777 pilots have actually tried the Coffin corner?!

During certification, a few.
 
flyorski
Posts: 725
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:23 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:16 am

Sorry if this has been posted before, however from the independent it appears the crew did not ask for more fuel.


"Officials urged reporters not to jump to conclusions on the pilot and co-pilot, who they said had not asked to work together that day, and had not requested additional fuel for the aircraft."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...and-crew-investigated-9195320.html
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
User avatar
allrite
Posts: 2358
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:28 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31

Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:23 am

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 13):
The pilot has received a lot of attention because: 1) He supports opposition politics, 2) He has a mongo flight simulator, 3) There are rumors of family problems (debunked).
• To address the data on a few of these:
• 1) The pilot supports opposition politics and may have been at a trial of the opposition leader (confirmed 'ordinary' member of opposition party). Opinion: What is the motive for suicide in this case?

It would be convenient for the Malaysian government to blame the increasingly popular opposition, especially if it was the case (and I'm not saying it was) Muslim terrorism. A more outlandish theory would be a government plot to discredit the opposition and bury the evidence deep at sea, with the co-pilot or some other operative taking action against the captain. I'm not suggesting that either are true but I would fear that there may be a desire from some quarters to twist the narrative for domestic purposes and this should be considered when evaluating information.
I like artificial banana essence!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], CM767, dc10lover, DeltaXNA, Gemuser, L1011, maccomando111, mikegigs, PSU.DTW.SCE, RixAv, SInGAPORE_AIR, sq256, Tokushima, Web500sjc, werdywerd, Wingtips56 and 350 guests