laxboeingman
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Will WN Fly To CVG?

Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:51 am

Hi everybody,

WN does not serve CVG at the present time, according to their route map. It seems like this is a gap in their Ohio coverage because they don't really serve the southern portion of the state. They do, however, serve Dayton. Will they eventually serve CVG or do they believe Dayton is sufficient for that geographic region? I thought, please forgive my error if I am wrong, that I thought CVG mentioned as a new route in another WN thread. If WN is starting CVG, what is the date, if there is one? It seems like this could be good for them because there is one dominate carrier, DL, in the market.

Thank you in advance,

laxboeingman
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SWADawg
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:45 am

CVG has not been announced and to my knowledge, there are no current plans to add service there. However, I do think they will eventually fly there at some point in the future. CVG just isn't a big priority with everything that's going on right now and I don't see that changing over the next few years with all the new International flying coming online.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
laxboeingman
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:50 am

Quoting SWADawg (Reply 1):

Thank you. Don't you think, though, it could offer goad loads on flights to Florida or other places with warmer weather?
The opinions I post are mine and not of any organization I am affiliated with.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:33 am

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
It seems like this is a gap in their Ohio coverage because they don't really serve the southern portion of the state.

Looking at the map, if there is any gap it is in NW Ohio...but I don't see WN going into FDY anytime soon.  
Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
They do, however, serve Dayton. Will they eventually serve CVG or do they believe Dayton is sufficient for that geographic region?

DAY and SDF cover that area pretty well now, no real need to add CVG.

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
If WN is starting CVG, what is the date, if there is one?

They aren't.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 2):
Thank you. Don't you think, though, it could offer goad loads on flights to Florida or other places with warmer weather?

If people in that area want to go to Florida for warm weather getaways - use Allegiant. WN is going to be more interested, for now, in business markets.
 
175erj
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:04 am

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):

Doesn't really make sense. They don't serve the southern part of the state?? Well where else in Southern Ohio would they fly to if not CVG. Nowhere... and there are no plans for them to serve CVG. Dayton is only about an hour away and I don't think if they started CVG, DAY would survive.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:11 pm

Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):

Southwest doesn't have any immediate plans to add CVG, though in the near future I believe WN entering CVG is inevitable.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 3):
Quoting laxboeingman (Thread starter):
They do, however, serve Dayton. Will they eventually serve CVG or do they believe Dayton is sufficient for that geographic region?

DAY and SDF cover that area pretty well now, no real need to add CVG.

CVG has a catchment area of over 2 million people if not more, serving from the outskirts in DAY and SDF isn't going to cut it anymore, particularly with the recent proliferation of LCC's at CVG, all of that leakage to DAY is going to quickly dry up. Combine that with the fact that Cincinnati is easily the largest market WN doesn't serve and that Dayton is an economically ill area while Cincinnati continues to grow, I think it's inevitable that WN will move from DAY to CVG.

Quoting 175erj (Reply 4):
Dayton is only about an hour away and I don't think if they started CVG, DAY would survive.

True and unavoidable. Once the flood of Cincinnatians leaking to DAY for low fares slows to a trickle as LCC's continue to succeed at CVG, WN will either have to move to CVG or be locked out of a market of not insignificant size.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:02 pm

This gets brought up in just about every single CVG thread...so let me recap:

NO!


They have SDF, IND, DAY, and CMH all within two hours that pull enough of the catchment area to make CVG not a worthwhile venture at this stage.
 
TPA0822
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:22 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
Southwest doesn't have any immediate plans to add CVG, though in the near future I believe WN entering CVG is inevitable.

I said the same exact thing in another post, and was accused of "jumping the shark." After all the dust settles, CVG will be in their plans.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:29 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
CVG has a catchment area of over 2 million people if not more, serving from the outskirts in DAY and SDF isn't going to cut it anymore, particularly with the recent proliferation of LCC's at CVG, all of that leakage to DAY is going to quickly dry up. Combine that with the fact that Cincinnati is easily the largest market WN doesn't serve and that Dayton is an economically ill area while Cincinnati continues to grow, I think it's inevitable that WN will move from DAY to CVG.

I think we've heard the same talking points ever since DL initially dehubbed CVG.

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 7):
I said the same exact thing in another post, and was accused of "jumping the shark." After all the dust settles, CVG will be in their plans.

Saying "better chance" or "possibly" is a lot more accurate than "will".
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:04 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 8):
I think we've heard the same talking points ever since DL initially dehubbed CVG.
DL has never dehubbed CVG. Reduced flights significantly, yes, but it's still considered a hub in the DL system to this day.

That said, DAY has lost quite a bit of service over the past few years and closed another concourse recently. With the Dayton economy continuing to suffer greatly while Cincy's economy is flourishing - and at the same time continuing to lose those lucrative Cincy pax to CVG, DAY has a lot to lose if WN moves to CVG. Put simply, DAY needs WN more than WN needs DAY.

Also, did anyone else notice that DAY was not included in WN's DAL gate plans, either if they get the extra gates or they don't? Say what you will, but I don't think things are as rosy for WN at DAY as many here say.

[Edited 2014-03-24 18:09:53]
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flyguy89
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:10 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 6):
They have SDF, IND, DAY, and CMH all within two hours that pull enough of the catchment area to make CVG not a worthwhile venture at this stage.

People said the same thing about all of Southwest Ohio before WN entered Dayton, clearly proximity to CMH and IND didn't hinder their decision.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 8):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
CVG has a catchment area of over 2 million people if not more, serving from the outskirts in DAY and SDF isn't going to cut it anymore, particularly with the recent proliferation of LCC's at CVG, all of that leakage to DAY is going to quickly dry up. Combine that with the fact that Cincinnati is easily the largest market WN doesn't serve and that Dayton is an economically ill area while Cincinnati continues to grow, I think it's inevitable that WN will move from DAY to CVG.

I think we've heard the same talking points ever since DL initially dehubbed CVG.

Doesn't make the logic any less sound. CVG now has established LCC service, that's the game-changer and the reason why passenger enplanements at DAY have been in continual decline since August last year while CVG local passenger enplanements have been increasing.
 
airliner371
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:20 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
Also, did anyone else notice that DAY was not included in WN's DAL gate plans, either if they get the extra gates or they don't? Say what you will, but I don't think things are as rosy for WN at DAY as many here say.

Neither was CHM, DSM, OMA, ORF, CLE, CAK and many more. Does that mean things are not rosy there? No. DAL has nothing to do with the success of DAY. DAY is doing well .
 
OOer
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:38 am

The fact that WN serves those nearby cities such as DAY and SDF doesn't mean that WN can't also be profitable by adding CVG. CVG is a large enough metro area to support WN service on it's own.

I expect WN service at CVG to be announced by the end of 2015.

Perhaps 12-15 flights a day would be where CVG would fit in well.

3 x MDW
1 x MCO
3 x HOU
3 x BWI
2 x DEN
1 x LAS
2 x ATL
 
iowaman
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:36 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 12):
The fact that WN serves those nearby cities such as DAY and SDF doesn't mean that WN can't also be profitable by adding CVG. CVG is a large enough metro area to support WN service on it's own.

I expect WN service at CVG to be announced by the end of 2015.

Perhaps 12-15 flights a day would be where CVG would fit in well.

3 x MDW
1 x MCO
3 x HOU
3 x BWI
2 x DEN
1 x LAS
2 x ATL

15 flights a day from the start would be nice but a little on the high side IMO. That schedule would be ideal though for hitting the larger WN stations and large cities. Maybe by next year there will be enough aircraft available to connect some more dots. The 717's leaving the fleet along with -300's and -500's being retired are putting a strain on capacity. I believe some of the retirements have been delayed though and WN is picking up used -700's (I think up to 12 IIRC). They have new -800's coming as well.

The reality is CVG is one of the largest holes in the Southwest map in the lower 48. Southwest Cargo even has a drop point for customers in Erlanger (Very near CVG). " As an extension of the Southwest Airlines® network, we are happy to provide our Cargo Customers with a complimentary Road Feeder Service between the cities below. This service offers Customers a seamless Customer Experience with no extra waiting time and no extra cost."
 
PHX787
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:02 am

Because DAY and SDF compete with CVG, WN naturally won't move into CVG as it will take away that element....


....as much as CVG people want WN.
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RWA380
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:32 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 5):
True and unavoidable. Once the flood of Cincinnatians leaking to DAY for low fares slows to a trickle as LCC's continue to succeed at CVG, WN will either have to move to CVG or be locked out of a market of not insignificant size
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
DL has never dehubbed CVG. Reduced flights significantly, yes, but it's still considered a hub in the DL system to this day
DL has shown more interest in CLE than CVG this year. There is an old saying from the country my family is from. You can dress an elephant in a beautiful gown (if you can find one that size) but it is still an elephant.

Meaning, Even though DL has not come out and said that they have dehubbed CVG, thet they have failed to keep their word to CVG, sure all was fine when they wanted to get their merger with NW approved.

The fact remains that CVG connecting traffic does not come close to equaling the traffic that other DL hubs do. DL has few non hub routes from CVG compared to the 80s and 90s. Too bad, I liked connecting there whenever possible. Taking the M11 from PDX to CVG was always great J service, far better than the F on a 72S or 757.

[Edited 2014-03-25 03:00:59]
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skycub
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:44 am

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 7):

I said the same exact thing in another post, and was accused of "jumping the shark."

I don't think that phrase means what you think it does. LOL.
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:27 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
Meaning, Even though DL has not come out and said that they have dehubbed CVG, thet they have failed to keep their word to CVG, sure all was fine when they wanted to get their merger with NW approved.

Sure, but how much has that affected local passengers? Certainly, the 3 local PDEW to SDF or the 9 local PDEW to FWA feel those cuts, but most people are flying to Chicago and New York, not Fort Wayne.
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:39 pm

I wonder what the reaction of CVG supporters would be if WN set up shop in LEX?
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FWAERJ
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:41 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
Certainly, the 3 local PDEW to SDF or the 9 local PDEW to FWA feel those cuts, but most people are flying to Chicago and New York, not Fort Wayne.

Actually, toward the end, FWA-CVG was almost all connections and only one or two O&D pax PDEW. The people who were flying to FWA via CVG were easily rerouted through DTW, ATL, and MSP.
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raddek
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:17 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 18):
I wonder what the reaction of CVG supporters would be if WN set up shop in LEX?




Oh, now....LEX? Now that is an interesting thought for sure. If you have DAY to the north and LEX to the south, then flying right to CVG would not be needed as you have the coverage that you needed to get people to drive. But then again, for the uber business markets like CVG-MDW or CVG- DC area you can't ignore that forever.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 14):

Once again:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 10):
People said the same thing about all of Southwest Ohio before WN entered Dayton, clearly proximity to CMH and IND didn't hinder their decision.

.
.
.
.
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
DL has shown more interest in CLE than CVG this year. There is an old saying from the country my family is from. You can dress an elephant in a beautiful gown (if you can find one that size) but it is still an elephant.


There's also a saying that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck. DL still operates over 100 daily flights to a couple dozen non-hub spokes and continues to use it as a connecting complex for a good chunk if connecting traffic.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:51 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):

There's also a saying that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck. DL still operates over 100 daily flights to a couple dozen non-hub spokes and continues to use it as a connecting complex for a good chunk if connecting traffic.

And a good bit of that is at least reasonably profitable for DL now*, or otherwise valuable enough for contract or network purposes that they would fight for the turf. I've raised the issue before, but WN would have to fight their way in to most of that, which even WN may not care (or have the resources) to do.


*= While I don't have any facts to back this up, IMHO we're at a point where nothing at CVG (for DL at least) can't stand on the merits. With all the cutting they've done, I can't see them running anything out of CVG anymore that doesn't somehow pull it's weight.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:24 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 21):
There's also a saying that if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it is a duck. DL still operates over 100 daily flights to a couple dozen non-hub spokes and continues to use it as a connecting complex for a good chunk if connecting traffic.

I think you are comparing elephants to ducks ...
 
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flyguy89
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:17 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 22):
I've raised the issue before, but WN would have to fight their way in to most of that, which even WN may not care (or have the resources) to do.


I'm not sure they would really when you consider that traffic would be stimulated with competition. I think routes like CVG-BOS, LGA and BWI/DCA would accommodate both DL and a competitor, but if WN came to CVG, they would probably initially be flying to BWI which doesn't impinge all that much on DL. Throw in the fact that PHX is wide open and DL flies CVG-LAS less-than-daily, I think with a handful of flights WN and DL could coexist fine.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 23):
I think you are comparing elephants to ducks ...


I see what you did there  
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:36 pm

Quoting raddek (Reply 20):
Oh, now....LEX? Now that is an interesting thought for sure. If you have DAY to the north and LEX to the south, then flying right to CVG would not be needed as you have the coverage that you needed to get people to drive. But then again, for the uber business markets like CVG-MDW or CVG- DC area you can't ignore that forever.

I don't see how WN can compete on CVG-CHI for business travelers. AA/DL/UA each have 6-8 runs (even today, a Wednesday) and there's no way the market could support six WN 737s - it just isn't deep enough.

Sure, WN could do CVG-MDW-xxx, but then it's competing with a lot of DL non-stop destinations CVG-xxx. About half of WN's destinations from MDW (still) have DL non-stops CVG-xxx

CVG fares may be high and look tempting, but the range of destinations served by DL is very good for an MSA of this size (and considering availability of service from airports less than 90 minutes away).
 
SurfandSnow
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:59 pm

Cincinnati, with almost 2.2 million people in its metropolitan area, is now by far the largest domestic market without WN service (the next largest, Greensboro/Piedmont Triad, has just over 1.6 million). WN has had a lot on their plate with the FL acquisition, windfall of DCA and LGA slots, and Wright Amendment repeal. It's understandable that they haven't taken on any truly new markets in past few years, however come 2015 they should be back in organic growth mode. Although much of WN's future growth will be international, CVG and for that matter GSO are important business markets and population centers that I expect WN to add sooner or later.

That said, serving CVG would be a challenge from a competitive and geographic standpoint. BWI and Florida would obviously work, but they'd need to provide better connectivity than just that. MDW would face competition from all of the big 3 legacies and may very well be too short of a route for WN these days (seeing as how they didn't even try MDW-DAY), ATL would pit them against a DL hub-hub service (certainly can't see them trying that after the likes of ATL-ORF/SDF flopped). Less competitive WN "hubs" BNA and STL are probably too close to CVG, DAL is gate restricted, HOU isn't served nonstop from nearby SDF or any Ohio markets, DEN now has 3 nonstop carriers, leaving the options of LAS and PHX. A FNT-type operation BWI/Florida/LAS would probably work very well, but that does little for Cincinnati area (or Cincinnati-bound) business travelers. Then again, since most CVG area business pax will still be loyal to DL, maybe a leisure strategy is exactly how WN should break into the market...
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callsigncitrus
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:41 pm

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here. Let's wait for more planes and see how DAY does with 20-25 flights a day.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:11 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 24):
I'm not sure they would really when you consider that traffic would be stimulated with competition. I think routes like CVG-BOS, LGA and BWI/DCA would accommodate both DL and a competitor, but if WN came to CVG, they would probably initially be flying to BWI which doesn't impinge all that much on DL. Throw in the fact that PHX is wide open and DL flies CVG-LAS less-than-daily, I think with a handful of flights WN and DL could coexist fine.

I don't disagree with any of that - some routes can obviously support competition (especially something like CVG-PHX where they would serve very different purposes for each airline), and others wouldn't concern DL that much. My point is just to note that this is going to be a fluid relationship between the two. WN won't just come in with flights and do their thing, and likewise they won't stand by and let DL run them off of something entirely without a fight (otherwise why bother with the market as a large player now).

I do think WN is certainly in a much better position to contest for some turf at CVG than the previous entrants have been, which is part of why I think they are very likely to make a go of it. It just won't be an easy jump immediately up to say 15-20 flights a day.
 
raddek
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 26):
MDW would face competition from all of the big 3 legacies and may very well be too short of a route for WN these days (seeing as how they didn't even try MDW-DAY),



I agree with Callsigncitrus. There is an open market for a DAY-MDW. You talk about WN being pitted up against the legacies? Those are RJ's with their name painted on them. That's it. They don't treat those flight nearly as well as they should to the consumer as they do with their mainline flights. UA and AA are a joke out of DAY with their sky high fares and tiny cramped planes. Bring in some mainline with good connection opportunities in DAY and the passengers in the market will fly. WN won't be able to compete on frequency, but they can make up for it easily in price and the side by side quality of what you get out of DAY.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:56 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 25):
I don't see how WN can compete on CVG-CHI for business travelers.

I don't think that's completely true. CVG-CHI hasn't really been priced to market for at least 20 years with the exception of Vanguard's brief service, I could definitely see WN carving out a 2-3 daily flight niche just by offering a decently affordable option for local travelers destinating in Chicago. That said, WN doesn't seem to be doing too hot on routes of similar stage length such as SDF-MDW.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 25):
CVG fares may be high and look tempting, but the range of destinations served by DL is very good for an MSA of this size (and considering availability of service from airports less than 90 minutes away).

Very true, there's still room for competition however.

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 26):
A FNT-type operation BWI/Florida/LAS would probably work very well

And that's what I think will ultimately happen unless DL decides to pull down the rest of the hub. No large focus city or hub, rather a handful of leisure-oriented routes where WN would have the upper (or at least equal) hand, i.e. BWI, LAS, PHX, Florida.

Quoting Surfandsnow (Reply 26):
but that does little for Cincinnati area (or Cincinnati-bound) business travelers.

I'm not sure it really has to though, the Cincinnati business community remains well-served with DL hub. I realize they're trying chase after more business travelers nowadays, however, they remain more oriented toward the leisure end of the spectrum.

Quoting callsigncitrus (Reply 27):
Let's wait for more planes and see how DAY does with 20-25 flights a day.

DAY at 20-25 flights? Why don't we wait until WN can solidly remain above 5 flights per day at DAY before we talk about 20-25.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 28):
It just won't be an easy jump immediately up to say 15-20 flights a day.

Agree completely.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
however, they remain more oriented toward the leisure end of the spectrum.

How so? I fly BNA-LAX a lot. This is a route with two legacies and WN. The passenger mix is basically the same (if anything, I see a few more celebrities on WN than on DL or AA).
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flyguy89
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:57 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
however, they remain more oriented toward the leisure end of the spectrum.

How so?

I would venture to say the majority of their capacity still flows into/out of leisure markets (i.e. MCO, LAS, PHX, TPA, SAN, MSY, RSW, FLL...etc).
 
raddek
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:33 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):

I don't think that's completely true. CVG-CHI hasn't really been priced to market for at least 20 years with the exception of Vanguard's brief service, I could definitely see WN carving out a 2-3 daily flight niche just by offering a decently affordable option for local travelers destinating in Chicago. That said, WN doesn't seem to be doing too hot on routes of similar stage length such as SDF-MDW.



WN should though look at DAY-MDW though. I know CVG-MDW would do very well, but both those routes could co-exist. The short haul flying isn't the bread and butter it used to be for WN. But the short hauls are low risk because they don't tie up an aircraft line for 3 or 4 hours just of flight time.

TIme will tell though on what WN will do. None of this will happen till at least 2015 or 2016 when there begins to be some slack in the sysytem with aircraft.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:23 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 32):
I would venture to say the majority of their capacity still flows into/out of leisure markets (i.e. MCO, LAS, PHX, TPA, SAN, MSY, RSW, FLL...etc).

Okay, but having a lot of capacity to leisure destinations isn't necessarily the same as catering to leisure passengers. In the past 3 years, I've taken business trips to LAS, SAN, PHX, MSY, TPA, etc.
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ouboy79
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:25 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 30):
I realize they're trying chase after more business travelers nowadays, however, they remain more oriented toward the leisure end of the spectrum.
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 32):
I would venture to say the majority of their capacity still flows into/out of leisure markets (i.e. MCO, LAS, PHX, TPA, SAN, MSY, RSW, FLL...etc).
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34):
Okay, but having a lot of capacity to leisure destinations isn't necessarily the same as catering to leisure passengers. In the past 3 years, I've taken business trips to LAS, SAN, PHX, MSY, TPA, etc.

Pretty much what Cubs is saying. If you think WN remains more oriented towards leisure travelers, you really don't pay much attention or understand the WN business model. Yes they have the typical leisure markets, but you really should look at the operation in CA, TX, and elsewhere on just how many business pax use the airline.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:15 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34):
Okay, but having a lot of capacity to leisure destinations isn't necessarily the same as catering to leisure passengers.

Never said they cater exclusively to leisure passengers, rather their business orientation leans more towards that end of the spectrum.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 35):
If you think WN remains more oriented towards leisure travelers, you really don't pay much attention or understand the WN business model.

Having flown WN intra-California a number of times, I'm quite aware of their popularity among business travelers on those routes and their efforts to capture a greater portion of higher-yielding traffic. However, their commitment to all-economy service, unassigned seating and dedication of capacity to leisure markets doesn't push them over towards the "business" end of the spectrum in my view.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:24 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 36):
Never said they cater exclusively to leisure passengers, rather their business orientation leans more towards that end of the spectrum.

Then how do we explain their generous FF plan, business select, focus on usable IT for business travelers (though paperless boarding sure would be nice), etc.? Leisure pax don't need any of that.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ouboy79
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:49 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 36):
However, their commitment to all-economy service, unassigned seating and dedication of capacity to leisure markets doesn't push them over towards the "business" end of the spectrum in my view.

All economy service really doesn't prove anything. Neither does unassigned seating. Dedication of capacity to leisure markets? I guess that rules out any airline then having a business pax focus if they are flying to Mickey's home.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
Then how do we explain their generous FF plan, business select, focus on usable IT for business travelers (though paperless boarding sure would be nice), etc.? Leisure pax don't need any of that.

Don't forget very favorable ticket change rules in addition to many others. We all know grandma and grandpa are making their decision to fly to RSW once a year because of that.
 
flyguy89
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:16 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 36):
Never said they cater exclusively to leisure passengers, rather their business orientation leans more towards that end of the spectrum.

Then how do we explain their generous FF plan, business select, focus on usable IT for business travelers (though paperless boarding sure would be nice), etc.? Leisure pax don't need any of that.

Because, once again:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 36):
Never said they cater exclusively to leisure passengers, rather their business orientation leans more towards that end of the spectrum.

As I said previously, their strategy as of late has been to make a more concerted effort to capture higher-yielding traffic.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):
Dedication of capacity to leisure markets? I guess that rules out any airline then having a business pax focus if they are flying to Mickey's home.

No, but most airlines with a model geared towards business-oriented passenger don't have the greatest percentage of their capacity tied to Florida, Vegas, Phoenix, the Caribbean...etc.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 38):
We all know grandma and grandpa are making their decision to fly to RSW once a year because of that.

Really don't understand why you're acting so offended by the notion. I like WN and think they have a great product, however they're an LCC (or at least still market themselves as such) with their product and network more conducive to leisure than business pax...not to say they aren't a great option for many business pax however.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:30 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 39):
No, but most airlines with a model geared towards business-oriented passenger don't have the greatest percentage of their capacity tied to Florida, Vegas, Phoenix, the Caribbean...etc.

I guess I'm a little confused by your point. I suspect DL and AA have more capacity to Florida (both absolute and percentage) than does WN, and AA and DL both have a lot more capacity (both absolute and percentage) to the Caribbean than does WN.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 39):
As I said previously, their strategy as of late has been to make a more concerted effort to capture higher-yielding traffic.

Aren't you contradicting yourself?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
flyguy89
Posts: 1890
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:37 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
I suspect DL and AA have more capacity to Florida (both absolute and percentage) than does WN

I wouldn't be so sure. In absolute numbers, perhaps; as a percentage of their network capacity, I don't think it's even close.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 39):
As I said previously, their strategy as of late has been to make a more concerted effort to capture higher-yielding traffic.

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

I don't think so. The bulk of their business is still underpinned by value seekers heading to sun or vacation destinations, they're obviously trying to diversify, but I don't think it would yet be a fair characterization to call them a more business travel oriented airline.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:24 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 39):
No, but most airlines with a model geared towards business-oriented passenger don't have the greatest percentage of their capacity tied to Florida, Vegas, Phoenix, the Caribbean...etc.

Vegas is the 2nd largest station in the system, but its also a pretty strong connecting point as well. PHX same situation - sure people vacation there, but it is also a good connecting market. MCO is the only other leisure city that is in the top 10 at number 9. So I'm not seeing where the greatest percentage of WN's network is focused on getting people to vacation destinations. Granted I vacation in Chicago and Seattle quite often - but would those classify as leisure markets?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 39):
Really don't understand why you're acting so offended by the notion. I like WN and think they have a great product, however they're an LCC (or at least still market themselves as such) with their product and network more conducive to leisure than business pax...not to say they aren't a great option for many business pax however.

Not offended, just trying to make it clear your assumption of WN's network is pretty biased and not completely accurate. This was an airline with roots starting a business airline. Yes leisure markets have been added since the days of the running DAL-SAT-HOU around and around, but everything from fare policies to the frequent flyer programs are aimed at business pax.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 41):
I don't think so. The bulk of their business is still underpinned by value seekers heading to sun or vacation destinations, they're obviously trying to diversify, but I don't think it would yet be a fair characterization to call them a more business travel oriented airline.

Would you say the same about JetBlue? Alaska? Virgin America?
 
flyguy89
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:43 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 42):
So I'm not seeing where the greatest percentage of WN's network is focused on getting people to vacation destinations.

Because WN ops both in Phoenix and Vegas cater more to O&D pax than connecting pax. Sure they use it as a connecting point, but the ratio of connecting pax to O&D pax is overwhelmingly skewed toward O&D...and both are major leisure markets.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 42):
Yes leisure markets have been added since the days of the running DAL-SAT-HOU around and around

Not just added, they became their bread and butter routes, their largest stations grew from high-traffic leisure markets.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 42):
but everything from fare policies to the frequent flyer programs are aimed at business pax.

This was also an airline, until just a few years ago that is, who's closest destination to the New York City area was ISP...and made a concerted effort to avoid the main metro airports frequented by higher-yield clientele. Certainly WN has adjusted their strategy to offer products, markets and frequency to appeal more to business travelers, I however don't believe it would be correct to characterize WN as more business travel than leisure oriented at this point. This isn't to say it won't change, I just don't think they're there yet.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 42):
Would you say the same about JetBlue? Alaska? Virgin America?

JetBlue? Yes, although they've made some aggressive, tangible steps to re-position themselves with the introduction of 'Mint'.
Alaska? No. First Class, lounges for frequent fliers and agreements with global carriers to transport passengers beyond Hawaii and Mexico/Caribbean I think demonstrates they're more aggressive about positioning themselves more towards business than leisure travel.
Virgin America? No...I mean, they're struggling, but similar to Alaska, with first class, premium economy, lounges and international agreements, they're definitely gunning hard for the high-yield biz traffic.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:03 am

Southwest is the largest airline in terms of domestic travel. They do have a loyal FF base and move alot of business travelers now. I could see them adding CVG in a minimal service to serve the city. I feel they might need to serve CVG for the purpose of network. Something that would be a crazy idea talking about Southwest 5 years ago.

Maybe a truly minimum service schedule to some shorter distance cities to hit some opportunities and to offer service. 1x LAS, 1x MCO, 3xBWI, 3xMDW, 2x ATL maybe something like. CVG is still a pretty large city and has a god amount of business traffic, might be need to be a dot to connect on the network.
 
DXBDFWHGA
Posts: 123
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:19 am

I can't believe that I've not flown out of CVG since 1995. This airport use to remind me of GVA when I was a young kid in the mid to late 1970s. I will not be surprise to see WN start serving CVG within the next two years.

MDW 4X, BWI 3X, FLL 3X, ATL 2X, HOU 2X, LAS 2X, MCO 2X
 
raddek
Posts: 275
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:08 am

Quoting DXBDFWHGA (Reply 45):
WN start serving CVG within the next two years.

MDW 4X, BWI 3X, FLL 3X, ATL 2X, HOU 2X, LAS 2X, MCO 2X

x3 FLL is a little much there don't you think? They would diversify their network a little bit and run more like a 1x RSW, 1x FLL and maybe a 1x TPA. There wouldn't be 3x FLL. That does not make any sense. You need to have some other Florida markets as well.
 
PHX787
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:00 pm

Quoting DXBDFWHGA (Reply 45):
MDW 4X, BWI 3X, FLL 3X, ATL 2X, HOU 2X, LAS 2X, MCO 2X

Add PHX.

When DL operated CVG-PHX, it was ALWAYS overbooked (it still is during its seasonal flight)

Once, it was so overbooked that they had to ask for TEN volunteers to give up their place.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:30 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
Because WN ops both in Phoenix and Vegas cater more to O&D pax than connecting pax. Sure they use it as a connecting point, but the ratio of connecting pax to O&D pax is overwhelmingly skewed toward O&D...and both are major leisure markets.

Both are also pretty large business markets, and WN also gets a ton of O&D on routes like ABQ-PHX (84 percent market share and a higher fare than US in the last quarter with data), which I have a hard time describing as a "leisure market." What data support your assertion?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Will WN Fly To CVG?

Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
Not just added, they became their bread and butter routes, their largest stations grew from high-traffic leisure markets.

Bread and butter on a low fare leisure route? Ehhh. I'll give you that they definitely help, but I would recommend going back and looking at past WN route maps. Until the 73Gs started showing up in larger numbers, and really it is still the case today, the network is built on point to point markets. They don't keep markets that don't perform well on an O&D basis.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
This was also an airline, until just a few years ago that is, who's closest destination to the New York City area was ISP...and made a concerted effort to avoid the main metro airports frequented by higher-yield clientele.

So LAX isn't a main metro airport? SFO? PHX? SAT? I would also argue that MDW and DAL are still preferred for business travelers wanting to get downtown faster. The only main metro airports they avoided were the congested messes in the Northeast. These weren't favorable for the way WN's network worked. We've seen OT performance take a hit since going into these airports (mind you I'm not blaming the recent OT issues on these airports at all).

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
Alaska? No. First Class, lounges for frequent fliers and agreements with global carriers to transport passengers beyond Hawaii and Mexico/Caribbean I think demonstrates they're more aggressive about positioning themselves more towards business than leisure travel.
Virgin America? No...I mean, they're struggling, but similar to Alaska, with first class, premium economy, lounges and international agreements, they're definitely gunning hard for the high-yield biz traffic.

So in order to be focused on a business traveler you need first class and airport lounges? I would guess that Companion Pass WN frequent flyers can qualify for is far more valuable to them then a bigger seat or a room they'll sit in for a short time.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 44):
Maybe a truly minimum service schedule to some shorter distance cities to hit some opportunities and to offer service. 1x LAS, 1x MCO, 3xBWI, 3xMDW, 2x ATL maybe something like. CVG is still a pretty large city and has a god amount of business traffic, might be need to be a dot to connect on the network.
Quoting DXBDFWHGA (Reply 45):
I can't believe that I've not flown out of CVG since 1995. This airport use to remind me of GVA when I was a young kid in the mid to late 1970s. I will not be surprise to see WN start serving CVG within the next two years.

MDW 4X, BWI 3X, FLL 3X, ATL 2X, HOU 2X, LAS 2X, MCO 2X

I can see CVG being an option in 5 years or so. The focus for the next couple of years is going to be near international expansion. If/when it happens I doubt it'll be as aggressive as what you two are suggesting. MDW isn't a guarantee, but perhaps. Maybe 2x MDW, 2x BWI, 2x ATL, 1x HOU, and 1x LAS. I don't think they'll bother with Florida traffic initially unless they close DAY.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 48):
Both are also pretty large business markets, and WN also gets a ton of O&D on routes like ABQ-PHX (84 percent market share and a higher fare than US in the last quarter with data), which I have a hard time describing as a "leisure market." What data support your assertion?

I think it is just further evidence that some people haven't taken the time to really dive in to understand the WN operation.

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