RyanairGuru
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Australian Aviation #93

Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:47 am

Greetings all, and welcome to the next instalment of AusAv. After a burst of excitement in February when we churned through these threads at quite a clip in the lead up the Qantas half-year results, things seem to have returned to a more sedate pace.
Australian Aviation Thread Part 92 (by allrite Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

In 92 we touched on the following:

*Allrite composed a little ditty
*Discussion of Qantas' Asian network
*Discussion of Qantas' LHR times/A380 network
*Discussion of Darwin as a potential northern hub
*RIP VH-OJC  
*New routes for QF and JQ (QF SYD-HVB, JQ MEL-AYQ etc)
*Rex launches SYD-ARM
*Rex seeks public assistance
*Qantas and Bangkok Airways launch codeshare, potential for same-same at CGK/MNL?
*ATSB report a doubling of turbulence events over this [very hot] summer
*Lionair v CASA, Round 2 ding-ding
*QF16 moves to TBIT, all LAX operations under one roof
*CAPA reckons that 10 more Asian LCCs are considering Australia
*JQ discontinues AKL-SIN

May your skies remain as clear as Virgin's ownership structure and your flying as smooth as Qantas' restructuring

  

[Edited 2014-03-23 23:48:22]
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:04 am

To get the ball rolling, I found this article very interesting:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...ntas-and-virgin-recalibrate-158525

I'm not sure what I was supposed to take away from it, other than that the WA economy grew rapidly between 2010 and 2013, but I nonetheless found it to be an interesting interpretation of the recent capacity growth from QF and VA.
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IndianicWorld
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:30 am

Its the typical boom and bust cycle really.

Add so much capacity when things heat up, but they both seem unwilling to cede ground when things cool off.

They both went in hard, with QF's buy out of Network and VA's Skywest takeover. Now it will be interesting to see who blinks first.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:39 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 2):
They both went in hard, with QF's buy out of Network and VA's Skywest takeover. Now it will be interesting to see who blinks first.

Hi mate,
Well, Skywest and it's ATR operations appear to be more valuable to Virgin group-wide than Network's Fokker operation to Qantas group-wide. My opinion anyway! Discussion?
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:42 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 3):
Well, Skywest and it's ATR operations appear to be more valuable to Virgin group-wide than Network's Fokker operation to Qantas group-wide. My opinion anyway! Discussion?

I tend to agree.

Given that the aircraft are utilised on a broader scale in the case of VA Regional (across several states), it seems to have added potential over QF's Network operation.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:54 am

Hi all,
An out-of-left-centre question ...
A few years ago I read a children's collection of short biographies of famous Australians. The one that caught my eye was on Reg Ansett. The reason? He was photographed in what I assume was his office with his arm resting on a very large scale DC-10 model in slightly modified Ansett 'red delta' colours. The only modification to the colourscheme was the titles, which were bolder / larger in size to those used at the time. The model was fully in shot, at an angle of about 45degrees to the camera, thereby allowing it's whole fuselage and tail to be seen. It was slightly nose-up and definitely was meant to be a focus of the photo.
I realise that all aircraft manufacturers at the time would've made presentations to airline heads with models as part of their presentations, but what was the story behind this model? I have always wondered. It was very large and very prominently placed in the office ... Or maybe it just made for a good 'prop' for the photo?
I recall being surprised at the time that a 'proposed' airliner would be featured and not a contemporary one.
Any recollections or information would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Bunumuring.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:57 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 3):
Skywest and it's ATR operations appear to be more valuable to Virgin group-wide than Network's Fokker operation to Qantas group-wide.

While the split between East and West is less evident now that Skywest (West) is being rebranded as Virgin Australia, I think we should exclude the ATR fleet from this discussion.

Virgin contracted Skywest (then a private company) to operate the ATR-72 on the East Coast in competition with QantasLink. That was a fundamental part of the Virgin Australia (proper) expansion plan.

The respective takeovers of the WA Fokker fleets are unrelated to this operation (or, for that matter, QantasLink). Buying up Network and Skywest (West) was about each carrier expanding their presence in the WA market. It is possible (although unlikely) that QF could reduce Network's FIFO ops, and VA could do the same with Skywest's intra-WA ops.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:12 am

Rayanair Guru the opposite will happen very shortly in regards to Network Aviation .Watch this space.

I assume you are not aware that Network are extremely close to getting their RPT AOC.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:32 pm

Quoting eaglefarm4 (Reply 7):
Rayanair Guru the opposite will happen very shortly in regards to Network Aviation .Watch this space.

I assume you are not aware that Network are extremely close to getting their RPT AOC.

I was just about to chime in with that. If anything what I see happening in the intra-WA market, gvien the QF dominance of scheduled services, is them using Network aircraft more to fly some of the mainline services which will plug holes in Networks utilisation which will in turn mean 738's, or 717's, based in Perth can be released and based back East.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:39 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 8):
I was just about to chime in with that. If anything what I see happening in the intra-WA market, gvien the QF dominance of scheduled services, is them using Network aircraft more to fly some of the mainline services which will plug holes in Networks utilisation which will in turn mean 738's, or 717's, based in Perth can be released and based back East.

That makes more sense.

Using the assets wiser is a much better move. If capacity is currently too high, moving the Network aircraft will be a better fit for what it needs.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:12 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 5):

I believe that Lockheed at the time, late 70's also proposed the L1011 in Qantas, Ansett & TAA colour schemes as well. It was all part of the proposals back then and I believe that McDonnell Douglas did the same with it's DC-10's hoping that both domestic carriers and QF would take on the tri-jets into their fleets. I believe these proposals paved the way for the A300 and B767 to be ordered for the domestic airlines.

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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:05 pm

Quoting eaglefarm4 (Reply 7):
I assume you are not aware that Network are extremely close to getting their RPT AOC.
Quoting sydscott (Reply 8):
I was just about to chime in with that. If anything what I see happening in the intra-WA market, gvien the QF dominance of scheduled services, is them using Network aircraft more to fly some of the mainline services which will plug holes in Networks utilisation which will in turn mean 738's, or 717's, based in Perth can be released and based back East.

And with this .. does anyone have an idea who would have the lower cost base Network or QFlink / Cobham?
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:12 pm

Quoting sydscott (Reply 8):

Interesting. The Fokkers have 100 seats so replacing service with them will be a capacity reduction. Some sense returning? Would these be painted up as QFLink planes too?

Also, we know that there is a shortage of 717s (ie none) to grow the QantasLink fleet, what is the market like for F100s if QF was to expand this operation in WA? Or, perhaps eventually replace the whole 717 fleet with F100s (though there is probably a case for both fleets to be replaced with something else, maybe the C series if it works?
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:44 pm

Hi all!

I am planning some domestic flights for August on JQ. What I wonder is if JQ's timetable is already set for August. For instance looking on MEL-SYD on Aug 12 shows two flights (A320 + A330) leaving within 5 minutes of each other (JQ518 @ 14:10, JQ4 @ 14:15). Is that a valid schedule, or will there be changes later on? Would be disappointed to see a narrowbody if I book my tickets on JQ4 specifically to get the A330.



Also does QF8 (DFW-BNE-SYD) arrive at the international or domestic terminal in SYD?
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:47 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):
I am planning some domestic flights for August on JQ. What I wonder is if JQ's timetable is already set for August. For instance looking on MEL-SYD on Aug 12 shows two flights (A320 + A330) leaving within 5 minutes of each other (JQ518 @ 14:10, JQ4 @ 14:15). Is that a valid schedule, or will there be changes later on? Would be disappointed to see a narrowbody if I book my tickets on JQ4 specifically to get the A330.

JQ4 is an int'l add-on flight so will always be A330 (or 787) and will depart from int'l terminal though you can fly it just as a domestic sector though need to check in earlier etc.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):
Also does QF8 (DFW-BNE-SYD) arrive at the international or domestic terminal in SYD?

Int'l
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:52 pm

Thanks for the quick reply!

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 14):
JQ4 is an int'l add-on flight so will always be A330 (or 787) and will depart from int'l terminal though you can fly it just as a domestic sector though need to check in earlier etc.

So the schedule is actually valid then. Not often you see an airline schedule two flights within 5 minutes of each other on the same route.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 14):
Int'l

Assume all DFW originating passengers will clear customs at BNE.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:57 pm

Quoting qf2220 (Reply 12):
Also, we know that there is a shortage of 717s (ie none) to grow the QantasLink fleet, what is the market like for F100s if QF was to expand this operation in WA? Or, perhaps eventually replace the whole 717 fleet with F100s (though there is probably a case for both fleets to be replaced with something else, maybe the C series if it works?

There are plenty of F100s around but they are all getting a bit old. F100s are great for mining ops where they have good runway performance and are very tolerant of less than perfect strips. I assume both VA and QF will hold onto them as long as they economically can.

QF would probably like more 717s though there aren't that many around with DL having taken all of the old AirTran 717s from WN to replace their DC9s and oldest MD80s. It is probably likely that QF would look to replace their whole regional jet fleet with a single type at some point in the future with C Series or E-Jets being the logical current candidates though this is a few years off so it may be different by then.

Quoting ZuluAlpha (Reply 11):
And with this .. does anyone have an idea who would have the lower cost base Network or QFlink / Cobham?

I would assume they are both pretty similar given they compete in the FIFO sector. Could it be that QF will use Network's RPT AOC as the operator of some of those shiny new A320s which Jetstar don't really need but which would look great in QF colors replacing the oldest 738s??
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:31 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 15):
So the schedule is actually valid then. Not often you see an airline schedule two flights within 5 minutes of each other on the same route.

Not really the samething. Who would want to checkin earlier at the international terminal, when you can do the same flight and have a later checkin. This flight isnt really a domestic flight..

Other then Aviation enthusists, the normal person would go the narrowbody because its cheaper and less hassle.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting zkokq (Reply 17):
Other then Aviation enthusists, the normal person would go the narrowbody because its cheaper and less hassle.

Might be so, but you get more legroom on the A330 compared to the A320 31in/28in
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:10 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 18):
Might be so, but you get more legroom on the A330 compared to the A320 31in/28in

If you want to fly the A330 then nobody is stopping you, but do understand that you are loosing the benefits of domestic flights (ability to turn up 30 mins before your flight, easy security etc).

To answer your original question, yes I think you can trust these schedules because JQ4 is not intended to be a MEL-SYD flight. If they pick up 1 local passenger then happy days, but the flights aren't "competing" against themselves.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 15):
Assume all DFW originating passengers will clear customs at BNE.

No, Sydney.

Quoting qf2220 (Reply 12):
The Fokkers have 100 seats so replacing service with them will be a capacity reduction. Some sense returning?

If I'm reading the above right, I think they are replacing the similarly sized 717s so that they can move back east.

Even if they are replacing 737s to places like KTA, PHE etc, I don't think that is as much about "sense returning" but localised changes in response to the slowdown in the resources sector.

Quoting qf2220 (Reply 12):
Would these be painted up as QFLink planes too?

If they are operating QF services then almost certainly yes.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:19 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 19):
Quoting B747forever (Reply 15):
Assume all DFW originating passengers will clear customs at BNE.

No, Sydney.

How are passengers that board at BNE for the BNE-SYD sector separated from the international ones?
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:25 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 20):
How are passengers that board at BNE for the BNE-SYD sector separated from the international ones?

They are not. The domestic pax get a special "D" boarding pass that identifies them as domestic pax but they still have to go through some minor Immigration check when they depart BNE and arrive in SYD. Likewise a domestic pax on this flight can be subject to Customs inspection of luggage even though they are nominally domestic.

This is the same for all domestic add-ons like JQ4 hence why most people tend to avoid them unless absolutely necessary.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:30 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 20):
How are passengers that board at BNE for the BNE-SYD sector separated from the international ones?

They're not ... which is why the flight arrives and departs from the international terminal. The same will apply on JQ4 (which is MEL-SYD-HNL, the US bound passengers are mixed with the "domestic" ones)

When you fly an international flight in Australia as a domestic flight you will need to:

1) check-in something like 90 minutes before your flight (which is an instant deal breaker for 95% of pax)
2) go through immigration (although this only involves showing your boarding pass)
3) go through international security (complete with all ICAO standards such as 100ml rules etc, which don't apply for domestic flights)

at the other end:

1) go through immigration (although, again, this only involves showing your boarding pass)
2) go through customs and AQIS (and they probably will subject you to the same searches in case you are carrying for a passenger of the international flight)

The passengers on the "domestic" flight have gone through all the same procedures as the international passengers, other than they won't be interrogated by immigration and customs.

[Edited 2014-03-25 17:31:42]
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:41 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 1):
To get the ball rolling, I found this article very interesting:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...ntas-and-virgin-recalibrate-158525

I'm not sure what I was supposed to take away from it, other than that the WA economy grew rapidly between 2010 and 2013, but I nonetheless found it to be an interesting interpretation of the recent capacity growth from QF and VA.

This article raises some interesting points relevant to a possible expansion of Network Aviation. Average load factors on PER-PHE are 58.5% and decreased 5.5% from 2011-2013. Similarly PER-KTA had an average of 58.9% and decreased 7.5% from 2011.
QF could downgauge 738 flights to 717s, and use Network's F100s on former 717 routes. Looking at Network's utilisation, some days an aircraft will operate one FIFO charter in the morning and sit idle at PER until the next day.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 16):
There are plenty of F100s around but they are all getting a bit old.

The last F100s were built in 1994 so all are at least 20 years old by now. AA stored theirs after 10 years, so they must have limited potential in scheduled ops.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:53 am

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 23):
they must have limited potential in scheduled ops.

Among others, KLM would beg to differ.

The 717 is 5-10 years ahead of the F100 in terms of technology, but the Fokker is a great airplane. It is probably the best 100 seater of its generation, compared to the BAe146 etc. As others said, it has very good field performance, and is pretty rugged. It is pretty much perfect for FIFO, which is why Network, Alliance, Skywest etc all use it.

For the potential QFLink services that it could be used on (pretty much the same as FIFO ) there is arguably nothing better. Maybe the 717, but that's it. And don't bother mentioning the E-Jet.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:44 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 15):
Quoting tullamarine (Reply 14):
JQ4 is an int'l add-on flight so will always be A330 (or 787) and will depart from int'l terminal though you can fly it just as a domestic sector though need to check in earlier etc.

So the schedule is actually valid then. Not often you see an airline schedule two flights within 5 minutes of each other on the same route.

Yes. 5 mins apart but from different terminals. When flying to MEL from SYD I always try to book the flight departing from the Intl terminal as it is an A330-200 - much better than flying an A320. But, you do need to check-in at least 60 or 90 mins before departure following Intl check-in rules and you do need to go through passport control but you only need a driver's licence. I can't wait until more 787s to fly the 788 from SYD-MEL as an Intl add-on flight. The last time I did this the plane landed in MEL and continued on to BKK.

I also often fly SYD-OOL on the 332 doing this as it then continues on to Japan.

[Edited 2014-03-25 18:47:40]
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 21):
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 22):

Thanks for the replies.

Wow, didnt now that it was that complicated. Booked myself on QF8 (BNE-SYD only) specifically to get on the 747-400ER.


What happens with DFW PAX that continues to SYD during the stopover in BNE if they dont clear immigration?
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:23 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 26):
What happens with DFW PAX that continues to SYD during the stopover in BNE if they dont clear immigration?

They're released into the terminal as if it was any normal connection: get off the plane, proceed to the transfer desk, go through security etc.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:41 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 26):
Booked myself on QF8 (BNE-SYD only) specifically to get on the 747-400ER.

I did not know that you could do this but I had never checked. That might be the easiest way to fly on a 744ER! Thanks for that!
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:48 am

Quoting zkokq (Reply 17):
Who would want to checkin earlier at the international terminal, when you can do the same flight and have a later checkin.

Those with access to the Qantas First Class Lounge in the International Terminal.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:50 am

These threads are going slow again. Let's mention Qantas.   

Qantas is "letting go" 26 senior managers according to SMH.

But I'm not actually grinning. Good luck to all those being made redundant by Qantas, you have my profound sympathies. May you quickly find new jobs that you enjoy.

Edited to remove names

[Edited 2014-03-26 21:58:46]
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:14 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 30):
Let's mention Qantas.

I can do that.

I mean no disrespect to any of those losing their jobs by asking something so trivial but, is there any chance that Network Aviation will get a decent livery - Qantas inspired, perhaps?

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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:33 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 30):

These threads are going slow again. Let's mention Qantas.   

Qantas is "letting go" 26 senior managers according to SMH.

Article remains vague as to how QF get to the 5000 figure they announced. Lots of speculation that this figure was dreamed up to frighten the government into a guarantee which it obviously hasn't. For the sake of the employees affected, I hope Qantas are shortly more forthcoming. I was working in Ansett during its never-ending restructures and to call it demoralising was an understatement.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:37 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
I mean no disrespect to any of those losing their jobs by asking something so trivial but, is there any chance that Network Aviation will get a decent livery - Qantas inspired, perhaps?

The titles are okay, they just need to replace the tail with a standard QF one. Is there any particular reason for Network to maintain their own brand?
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:49 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 33):
The titles are okay, they just need to replace the tail with a standard QF one. Is there any particular reason for Network to maintain their own brand?

I find the titles fairly bland, and the tail with the big N is about as unimaginative as I can imagine. I don't usually care about livery, but this one surprised me because it is so utilitarian.

I don't know much about Network, but since it is a wholly owns subsidiary I can't think of any reason for it to retain its own identity, but there may be things of which I'm not aware, some wording in the contract that ties it to something, an ego, perhaps?

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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:01 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
I find the titles fairly bland, and the tail with the big N is about as unimaginative as I can imagine. I don't usually care about livery, but this one surprised me because it is so utilitarian.

I don't know much about Network, but since it is a wholly owns subsidiary I can't think of any reason for it to retain its own identity, but there may be things of which I'm not aware, some wording in the contract that ties it to something, an ego, perhaps?

I assume there is nothing stopping QF putting the roo on the tail of Network planes but it may be similar to the situation when Eastern, Southern and Sunstate Airlines were denied the roo. It was widely believed that QF management (at the time) felt that if there were to be a hull loss it was more likely to be in a regional airline and they didn't want a smoking QF tail appearing in the press. Eventually common sense prevailed and this was changed.

[Edited 2014-03-26 23:12:06]
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:10 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 26):
What happens with DFW PAX that continues to SYD during the stopover in BNE if they dont clear immigration?

They get off the aircraft, go through security and go back upstairs to the departure level to the same boarding gate they just alighted from.

Basically, similar to an international connection.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:12 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 34):
I don't know much about Network, but since it is a wholly owns subsidiary I can't think of any reason for it to retain its own identity, but there may be things of which I'm not aware, some wording in the contract that ties it to something, an ego, perhaps?

They have maintained the brand up until now because Network has solely been focused on FIFO work and those flying on Network have not been able to earn FF points or anything like that. So although it's part of Qantas, it's not part of Qantas. (If that makes sense)

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 35):
I assume there is nothing stopping QF putting the roo on the tail of Network planes but it may be similar to the situation when Eastern, Southern and Sunstate Airlines were denied the roo

It will be interesting to see what they do if and when Network start scheduled passenger service. I'd say QF will assign them their own special range of flight numbers and simply swap out the Cobham 717's for the Network F100's. So QF 9170, or whatever, operated by Network Aviation. That would release the Cobham 717's from PER.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:25 am

Do the network F100s have 34" pitch, same as skywest?

if so could be reconfigured for more seats.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:59 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 33):
The titles are okay, they just need to replace the tail with a standard QF one.
If they stil have their silver EMB-120s then they'd need a bit more paintwork, or maybe a Jetstar scheme instead!  
Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 38):
Do the network F100s have 34" pitch, same as skywest?

Their website says "up to 34 inch".
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:17 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 32):
Article remains vague as to how QF get to the 5000 figure they announced. Lots of speculation that this figure was dreamed up to frighten the government into a guarantee which it obviously hasn't. For the sake of the employees affected, I hope Qantas are shortly more forthcoming.

Trying to satisfy the govt without having a well thought up plan wouldn't surprise me based on the experience at my government affiliated workplace. Big cuts were "announced" in the media and amongst the larger group of which I am a part figures of a 30 - 50% reduction in staff are expected. But... they hadn't even got a plan or costings for staff reductions before it was announced - modern leadership isn't into details. But at least senior HR managers seem to be excited.  
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:22 am

In other QF related news, big changes are coming with regards to point accrual rates and structures. I haven't had a chance to look through in depth yet, but details -- http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/...gram/fairer-flying#changes-to-earn

Edit -- having now actually read through everything, this will be a massive devaluation for most travellers. I'm generally a supporter of QF, but this is a really desperate grab for savings, which IMO are unnecessary when frequent flyer is generating a profit of $300m a year.

It also looks an awful lot like the sort of move they would make during preparations for a sale/float IMO.

[Edited 2014-03-27 03:30:43]

[Edited 2014-03-27 03:31:31]
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:38 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 41):
In other QF related news, big changes are coming with regards to point accrual rates and structures.

Doesn't look any simpler to me... East Coast Australia to Japan looks like a big loser to me. 5 less status credits and almost half the points gone for SYD-NRT by my reckoning. Thankfully this year's flight is just before the changeover.

New minimum is also 800 points rather than 1000. Basically, anybody not prepared to stump up the big bucks is worse off. Discount economy is now even worse value.

How is this supposed to help loyalty? Hope they make higher status easier to earn in compensation. Not happy right now.

Ah, I see it now. If you ain't in (big) business or rich you should be worse off. Helps to keep the riff raff out of the lounges. Another government condition imposed on Qantas?

Edit:
Looks like selecting a fare is going to get more complicated as well. Wonder if Qantas will introduce Jetstar style "bundles" for adding "flexibility" to purchases.


[Edited 2014-03-27 03:43:56]


[Edited 2014-03-27 03:54:44]

[Edited 2014-03-27 03:55:29]
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:50 am

The changes generally don't sound great for most travelers
Seems very silly at a time when customer loyalty is critical for them....more reason to go to VA
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:12 pm

Quoting allrite (Reply 42):
Looks like selecting a fare is going to get more complicated as well. Wonder if Qantas will introduce Jetstar style "bundles" for adding "flexibility" to purchases.

To answer myself (forums were down, so I couldn't edit), the flexibility options are not presented as bundles but as columns with associated prices. I suppose much like previously but with different titles IIRC. Also, the points required to change status tiers remain the same.

What really irritates me is that Qantas are portraying the changes as simpler and fairer when it is quite obviously neither. Maybe they confused fairer with more fares.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting allrite (Reply 42):
How is this supposed to help loyalty? Hope they make higher status easier to earn in compensation. Not happy right now.

I'm with you mate... From what I can see, it looks like while status credits will still be pretty much the same, but miles earned will be less. Talk about smack-down!!! For flights my flights to Asia and domestic, I have to book the best fare of the day which is always discount economy... so it looks like I will loose a bit...

Maybe they did need to change, maybe we had it too good for too long ey... who knows.  

Has anyone on here made the switch to VA? Was/ is it worth it? Fingers crossed for a status match http://www.qantas.com.au/fflyer/dyn/...gram/fairer-flying#changes-to-earn
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:18 pm

Quoting allrite (Reply 44):
What really irritates me is that Qantas are portraying the changes as simpler and fairer when it is quite obviously neither. Maybe they confused fairer with more fares.

These changes are an attempt to drive more value and profitability into the FF scheme in advance of a partial float. The sad part is, whilst the management consultants may have developed a means that makes the scheme even more profitable in the short term, it is a loyalty business and if he the punter doesn't see value they will take their loyalty elsewhere.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:30 pm

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 46):
, it is a loyalty business and if he the punter doesn't see value they will take their loyalty elsewhere.

Lets be frank, when you talk about "punter" the people who are benefiting most from being member of QFF, road warriors and business travellors, are actually going to be earning more points and status credits under the new scheme than now whereas those that are shopping for fares purely on price are going to be earning less points including less guaranteed points. So after reading all of the detail this morning I'm probably, as a Gold QFF and looking at my forward bookings, not going to be any worse off overall once these changes go through and on some flights in the later half of the year which haven't been booked yet will probably be better off.

Bottom line, if you're travelling on QF purely based on price and always go for the cheapest fares you'll earn less points. That's not necessarily a bad thing because if you are really loyal you'll pay a bit extra to get your points. If you're not, you won't and you'll earn less.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 47):
not going to be any worse off overall once these changes go through and on some flights in the later half of the year which haven't been booked yet will probably be better off.

Maybe, but most companies now demand that staff travel on non-flexible fares for the outbound journey at least. I managed a $3M annual travel spend for a very large IT consultancy and this proviso was non-negotiable. The points earned on these fares have declined every time.

There also appears to be added provisos for premium cabins also that I haven't investigated fully but it seems that "discount" W and J fares are also impacted slightly. I'll leave it to analysts with more time than me to crunch the numbers on these.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 47):
That's not necessarily a bad thing because if you are really loyal you'll pay a bit extra to get your points

If anyone does this, they are a fool. There is no value in spending more to get points, do yourself a favour and spend your money on a financial advisor instead.
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RE: Australian Aviation #93

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 48):
Maybe, but most companies now demand that staff travel on non-flexible fares for the outbound journey at least

The availability of non-flexible fares depends on when you book them and how far in advance. Of course there are plentiful numbers of non-flexible fares on Jetstar that are available last minute.........

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 48):
I managed a $3M annual travel spend for a very large IT consultancy and this proviso was non-negotiable. The points earned on these fares have declined every time.

The same IT consultancy has the opportunity to double dip with Acquire points now. So while individuals may earn less travelling on cheap fares the company itself can now earn points as well. Who those points go to is a different matter.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 48):
There also appears to be added provisos for premium cabins also that I haven't investigated fully but it seems that "discount" W and J fares are also impacted slightly

Correct. You earn more if your W and J fares are full fares vs promotional fares. Again, the more you pay the more you earn. I'm booked on business sale fares for SYD-HKG-PEK-PVG-SYD in November and will be grand-fathered in, as I understand from the fine print, but if we weren't we'd earn less due to being on Sale type fares than full fare paying business.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 48):
If anyone does this, they are a fool. There is no value in spending more to get points, do yourself a favour and spend your money on a financial advisor instead.

A financial advisor..............you mean like Storm Financial? Or maybe CBA Financial Planning? Westpoint perhaps?

If you look at the fine print on say a MEL-SYD or a MEL-BNE and you buy the cheapest ticket possible the difference is basically the points guarantee goes down from 1000 points to 800 points. Status credits remain at 10. If you do lots of trips that could add up. If you do a few then not really. And your company account can make up the difference with Acquire points if they're enrolled in that scheme.

Besides which, when people talk about QFF profitabiltiy we know where that profitability comes from and it's not flying. The majority of points are coming from the Credit Card programs and from partners such as Woolworths which is also where QFF's profits are being made. So while flying accruals will be more difficult, the majority of casual "punters" won't feel any difference because their points accruals from Credit Cards etc will continue as before. And since they're shopping on price they're not going to notice much of a difference.

And there hasn't been any change to redemptions and redemption rates..................yet. They'd be truely stupid if they started tampering with that.

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