SA7700
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:43 am

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Due to length part 44 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 45:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43 (by SA7700 Mar 22 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44 (by SA7700 Mar 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory

MISSING MH370: ACARS cannot be disabled

MISSING MH370: Search for missing aircraft above politics: Hishamuddin


***********************************************************************************************


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Pellegrine
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:59 am

Re: Blueshamu330s

Quote:
It is not hush money.

It is a subsistence payment to assist grieving relatives with immediate costs.

The word "compensation" has yet to be mentioned, but it has already been stated by MAS that they acknowledge their obligations in that regard. I recall one article mentioning a minimum of $150,000.

Malaysian would be foolish to preempt the legal process.

Post the contract then. $5,000 USD is insulting. It costs way more than that to repatriate a body and bury or cremate it. Five thousand for what? Going to get coffee and a meal while I wait for your sloth-like information dissemination about my deceased loved one?

You want to do something nice, then pay costs per diem or per remittance. Don't come up with an arbitrary (LOW) figure.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
liquidair
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:07 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):

from what i understand it's the initial money thats being paid purely for expenses involved with being holed up in a hotel, and for travelling to Australia....

i don't think this payment has anything to do with the long term compensation.

in other news, the BBC reports that the Chinese protests against the Malaysian embassy, there's a spreading feeling amongst the victims' families that the Malaysians are lying and the plane has actually landed with a good chance the people are alive.

Whether that's true or not, i think we have to recognise that making an announcement in the way they did, based on algorithmic proof rather than solid evidence, was an incredibly ill thought out procedure.

I've been on the Malaysians' side until now- but this last part has been botched horribly.
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art
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:12 am

Pelegrine, it's an initial payment to help. I presume it to be made with no admission of liability - at the moment nobody knows what happened so nobody is going to volunteer to accept liability. Whatever payment is eventually awarded to the victims' family members is not at issue.

[Edited 2014-03-25 02:13:16]

[Edited 2014-03-25 02:15:29]
 
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garpd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:12 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):
Post the contract then.

Show us your evidence that this is "hush money" then. "Put up or shut up" I think is the expression here.
Don't go spouting crap and expect others to prove evidence of their point of view.

Show us undeniable, factual (That means a link or two from reputable sources), proof this money is a bribe to shut people up.

For now, without any further evidence or information to the contrary, I'm inclined to agree this $5000 is designed to meet immediate costs only and is a simple gesture of good will.
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JimJupiter
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:14 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):
It costs way more than that to repatriate a body and bury or cremate it.

You realize they haven't even found those bodies, right?  

Seems the Malaysians can do whatever they want - people will find a way to turn it against them. Sigh.
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:18 am

Quoting liquidair (Reply 2):
Whether that's true or not, i think we have to recognise that making an announcement in the way they did, based on algorithmic proof rather than solid evidence, was an incredibly ill thought out procedure.

How is this algorithmic proof not solid evidence? Much as it may be hard for the relatives to understand, physics does not lie.

Furthermore, the Malaysian authorities may have announced this, but it is Inmarsat that has talked about the results.


Unless of course someone thinks it is all a coverup. The problem is that you can't change the mind of the dedicated conspiracy theoriest. He will find ways to ignore or twist any facts that do not fit his view. You could show himwreckage and they would say it was fake.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):

Quote:
It is not hush money.

It is a subsistence payment to assist grieving relatives with immediate costs.

The word "compensation" has yet to be mentioned, but it has already been stated by MAS that they acknowledge their obligations in that regard. I recall one article mentioning a minimum of $150,000.

Malaysian would be foolish to preempt the legal process.

Post the contract then.

Numerous press reports state that Malaysia Airlines says this is just a first payment. Where is your evidence that it is hush money beyond your opinion that it is? The burden of proof is on you at this point.

[Edited 2014-03-25 02:20:43]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:21 am

AMSA has published its report on search operations for 25th March.

The link is http://www.amsa.gov.au/media/documen...diaRelease_Update17_MH370DRAFT.pdf

I couldn't find anything especially newsworthy; not surprisingly as bad weather stopped today's aerial searches.
 
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garpd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:28 am

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 5):

Seems the Malaysians can do whatever they want - people will find a way to turn it against them. Sigh.

Indeed.

What some are describing and bungling, spreading misinformation, etc, I see as a group of people caught in the spotlight of a relentless world wide media with reporters hounding the families, goading them on to pressure the authorities for information.
Information gets leaked out by the media which people immediately believe is true. Then these poor chaps in front of the camera have to try and explain fact from supposition to a baying crowd.
Yes it's true they've faltered along the way, but I can understand it when I take into consideration the unbelievable amount of attention and pressure these people have under. I doubt they have been under such strain before. I really feel sorry for them.

As for the SAR operations. I really cannot see what more could have been or still can be done. They all did the best they could with the information at hand.

At this point I think the families, distraught as they are, are really being unreasonable. I have to wonder if they are being goaded on by the media? I've seen it before. A peaceful crowd getting riled up by the actions of one or two reporters stirring up trouble with probing questions based on opinion or lies.

Nothing sells in the media more than drama and sensation. Whip up the crowd of relatives into a frenzy and you can film them and sell papers, sound and video bytes.
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liquidair
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:33 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):

sorry, I've not explained myself properly- i was talking about the fashion in which this was done- whether it is correct or not.

Of course, I'm positive the AAIB and Inmarsat wouldn't release this info unless they were convinced... But to then announce it the way they did was damaging IMO.

The backlash we're seeing now is the consequence... Far better to announce that, based on the calculations of Inmarsat, it is believed the plane was definitely over the south indian ocean at a time when it less than 1 hour's fuel, and was more than 4 hours' flight from land (i say 4, i have no idea the real flying time).

Besides which, not being pedantic or facetious, but (unlikely though it is), how many times have things been retracted in the past due to erroneous data/calculations/processing? Remember the faster than speed of light debacle involving CERN and Gran Sasso a couple years back?

I'm just saying - as a relative of a missing person, unless i was given a completely undeniable fact, rather than a calculation, i too would be irked by the manner and definitive nature of that statement.

edit- when referring to solid, i meant plane parts, bodies... Tangible physical evidence.

[Edited 2014-03-25 02:38:45]

[Edited 2014-03-25 02:40:23]
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zeke
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:35 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):
The word "compensation" has yet to be mentioned, but it has already been stated by MAS that they acknowledge their obligations in that regard. I recall one article mentioning a minimum of $150,000.

I think under the Montreal Convention it is fixed at 100,000 SDR’s (the artificial IMF currency unit), I think it is limited to USD$150,000 per passenger and USD$1500 for checked luggage.

Most ICAO states generally have a requirement as part of the air operators certificate that the airline must have carriers liability insurance to cover such events. Personal travel insurance also tends to have additional coverage.
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monjonman
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:02 am

Quoting art (Reply 3):

How long do you wait for the solid evidence to appear?Another month ?six months? and what if they never find any evidence of the aircraft ever being in that area?
Unfortunately this still may be the case if the weather limits the search for any debri or the black box before the batteries run flat.
It's difficult to imagine what you would feel knowing that you may never know why someone you loved perished, but I think the families of the lost need to be realistic about the evidence to hand ,which all points to it going down where they are searching.
I do not believe for one second that there is any cover up ,conspiracy,ill motives by the Malaysian government but they just lack the necessary communication skills and that can happen quite easily whenever you have
multiple cultures with a vested interest, trying to translate what is being said or the way it is being said.
The officials would only be making these statements if they were positive (after serious scrutiny by experts in the field) that this has happened to the aircraft and would of course not be make them lightly.
To give weight to any other theory (other than the southern corridor ) at this stage of the search is nothing more than a distraction and ignoring valid verifiable evidence provided by numerous countries.
Condolences to anyone who may read this post now or in the future that may have known someone on board .
I can only hope you are able to have some closure to this terrible terrible tragedy in the near future.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:08 am

One of the objects has been identified as a whale carcass.

http://twitter.com/PDChina/status/448080809023389696/photo/1
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
celestar
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:11 am

I have a simple question to ask everyone. Given what we know right now, would it be possible for the pilot or someone who is in control of MH370, after their last contact, to have a conversation with known Malaysian authority and that conversation cannot be intercepted by any other sources?
There is a theory, which I do not believe or comment, that there was a on-going negotiation with the government of Malaysia over the release of Anwar, the opposition leader, while taking the passengers on board as hostage, and as time tickle away, the negotiation failed and the plane perished on the Indian ocean. If indeed this is possible, couldn't the CIA or any other country with capability to tape or listen to such conversation over the radio?

Just a personal question to ask. Nothing else.
 
art
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:20 am

Quoting monjonman (Reply 11):
How long do you wait for the solid evidence to appear?Another month ?six months? and what if they never find any evidence of the aircraft ever being in that area?.

How long to find the CVR and FDR? I think it took 2 years to search less than 10,000sq km to find the AF black boxes. I believe the Malaysian transport minister has just stated that the search area for debris has been reduced from several million square nautical miles to more like 400.000 sq nm. That would be perhaps 100 times the size of the AF447 undersea search area,. Employing the same search assets it might take several hundred years to locate the MH370 black boxes.

Quoting monjonman (Reply 11):
Unfortunately this still may be the case if the weather limits the search for any debri or the black box before the batteries run flat.

Even if MH370 debris were found now the prospects of finding the black boxes before their beacon signals cease is virtually nil. Assuming that a ship would need to be within 4,000 metres of the beacon to detect it. that ship could steam right over the beacon and still fail to detect it in water of 4,000m depth.

[Edited 2014-03-25 03:25:30]
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:35 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 1):
Post the contract then. $5,000 USD is insulting. It costs way more than that to repatriate a body and bury or cremate it. Five thousand for what? Going to get coffee and a meal while I wait for your sloth-like information dissemination about my deceased loved one?

Settle down; while MH has conducted themselves in a ham-handed manner from the start, it sounds as if they're trying to emulate what U.S. carriers' CARE teams (mandated by law) do, and part of that is immediately cutting each family a check (although in the U.S. it's $25K) in addition to providing for their immediate needs while at or on their way to/from the crash site or command center. It's not a legal settlement nor is it considered compensation; it's merely a small goodwill gesture at the start of a very long, painful process.
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F9Animal
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:39 am

I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest! They are hiding something, and I can't blame the families for being outraged. As far as Malaysia Airlines is concerned, I think the damage done will bring this airline to its knees. The incompetence shown by the government and airline is second to none. I suspect that something in that cargo is playing a role into why this plane has vanished. The families deserve more than what they have been told.
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pvjin
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:47 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16):

I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest! They are hiding something

No, they aren't hiding anything. Cargo manifest is none of our business, investigators certainly have access to it.

I can't imagine how cargo could possibly play any part in this.
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liquidair
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:48 am

Quoting art (Reply 14):
Even if MH370 debris were found now the prospects of finding the black boxes before their beacon signals cease is virtually nil. Assuming that a ship would need to be within 4,000 metres of the beacon to detect it. that ship could steam right over the beacon and still fail to detect it in water of 4,000m depth.

don't they drag sensors stuck on cables?

as for the debris...

We've seen it once in the thread before and it'll spread- even if they find some debris, until this is solved there will be people making ludicrous accusations that the debris and investigation is staged, planted.

i fear, in the long term, unlike AF447(from which there is no equivocal interpretation) this is always going to be a conspiracy theorist's ideal candidate.

[Edited 2014-03-25 03:49:48]

just read this on bbc rolling updates....

Some more details from the media briefing by Malaysia's acting Transport Minister Hishammuddin Hussein. He says there was "evidence of a partial handshake between the aircraft and ground station at 00:19 UTC".


can anyone shed light on what a partial handshake might mean?


[Edited 2014-03-25 03:58:26]
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zeke
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:50 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16):
I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest!

I think that is improper to do so at this stage as it has third party names, address, and contact information on it.

I see little harm in the Notice to Captain (NOTOC) being released, as they just outlines what position and quantity in the hold it had various known dangerous goods without listing the sender, receiver, and shipping agent.
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garpd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:50 am

Hasn't the cargo been quoted as being mainly mangusteens?
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skopsko
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:55 am

Is it true that the pilot's wife and children disappeared a day before the flight? This was posted somewhere but I was wondering if this was ever confirmed as 100% true. I also never saw the news trying to talk to his wife, which would have made sense, given that he is a suspect.
 
bill142
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:59 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
I think that is improper to do so at this stage as it has third party names, address, and contact information on it.

Such information could be redacted with privacy in mind. Only the physical cargo needs to be listed, and if they want to hide something they could redact that too.
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:03 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 19):
Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16):
I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest!

I think that is improper to do so at this stage as it has third party names, address, and contact information on it.

I agree. Don't feed the trolls

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 22):
Such information could be redacted with privacy in mind. Only the physical cargo needs to be listed, and if they want to hide something they could redact that too.

...so that they can - again - be accused of withholding information ?
  

[Edited 2014-03-25 04:04:15]
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David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:06 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 8):
What some are describing and bungling, spreading misinformation, etc, I see as a group of people caught in the spotlight of a relentless world wide media with reporters hounding the families, goading them on to pressure the authorities for information.
Information gets leaked out by the media which people immediately believe is true. Then these poor chaps in front of the camera have to try and explain fact from supposition to a baying crowd.
Yes it's true they've faltered along the way, but I can understand it when I take into consideration the unbelievable amount of attention and pressure these people have under. I doubt they have been under such strain before. I really feel sorry for them.

   Not to mention that it is a very unusual set of circumstances.

Quoting garpd (Reply 8):
As for the SAR operations. I really cannot see what more could have been or still can be done. They all did the best they could with the information at hand.

Indeed. Simply expecting them to "have better information" doesn't really help.


Quoting liquidair (Reply 9):
Besides which, not being pedantic or facetious, but (unlikely though it is), how many times have things been retracted in the past due to erroneous data/calculations/processing? Remember the faster than speed of light debacle involving CERN and Gran Sasso a couple years back?

Even that was badly reported. They didn't say the neutrinos had travelled faster than light. They said their data showed they'd travelled faster than light and invited others to try to see where they might have made a mistake.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16):
I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest! They are hiding something

Why not give the investigators a chance to investigate? Their job is to determine probable cause(s). Until they release an accident report it's not their job to provide ammunition to the public for yet more speculation. Don't forget that the NTSB, AAIB, Boeing, RR and others are also involved.
 
JimJupiter
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:06 am

Quoting skopsko (Reply 21):
I also never saw the news trying to talk to his wife, which would have made sense, given that he is a suspect.

He es also missing. The investigators should speak to her and probably already have. The news media? Please no! It's bad enough already to see pictures of desparate relatives on every news site on the internet. They should just leave them alone, and we (the public, or so) should stop pretending that we have a God-given right to be informed about everything and anything concerning the private lives of individuals involved in this sad story. The sense of entitlement is very strong on the interwebz these days....  

[Edited 2014-03-25 04:10:33]
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dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:15 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 16):
I find it shocking that they won't release the cargo manifest!

Granted MH/Malaysia botched this investigation every possible way, but it is still an "active" investigation. No agency will release "evidence" to public during an active investigation.

Was there an official statement from AAIB? I know Malaysian PM used their name in the presser, I would like to see their statement. Again proper procedure is to have a AAIB representative present during that statement to give credibility to the claim.
 
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pvjin
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:17 am

Noticed this MH CEO interview on BBC channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilf3we0Fbz4

I don't think they really know more than they have already released to the public.

[Edited 2014-03-25 04:18:35]
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liquidair
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:19 am

Quoting David L (Reply 24):
Even that was badly reported. They didn't say the neutrinos had travelled faster than light. They said their data showed they'd travelled faster than light and invited others to try to see where they might have made a mistake.

yes, absolutely- and it's that sort of transparency and spirit that i think was slightly lacking in the statement last night.

I'm not questioning the evidence, i have no understanding of pings, satellites and communication handshakes - i am however sympathetic with the relatives due to the questionable language that was used in making said statement.

i mean, fundamentally, from what i understand, Inmarsat have really just confirmed what the NTSB said, that the southern corridor was the path followed- or have i misunderstood?
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LandSweetLand
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:20 am

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 25):
The investigators should speak to her and probably already have.

It's unlikely she could help at this stage anyway, even if he did do it, and told her he was going to do it, it's highly unlikely that she would know the exact coordinates of where he was going to ditch the plane.
 
GZed
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:22 am

I believe that the information we have so far strongly points towards there being no problem with aircraft.

The initial turn back and decent is consistent with an inflight emergency, but if there was a fire or any other sort of issue with the aircraft, the crew would have been fearful that the controllability of the aircraft would deteriorate and would have attempted a landing at the first available opportunity. These opportunities were passed by and yet the aircraft continued on; precisely tracking known waypoints.

The photo of the military primary radar traces clearly shows that MH370 had overflown Malaysia, then flown a precise track away from PEN, turned at VAMPI then over flew MEKAR. There are also suggestions that the a/c was climbing out at this point.

I think the theories regarding remaining aloft intentionally to deal with an emergency are just too farfetched. Therefore, in my humble opinion, there was no emergency regarding the aircraft itself.

Having said that, I don’t think we can jump to the conclusion that one of the pilots is a mass murderer. The pilot suicide angle has been well covered and is probably the best fit with the evidence, but is a failed hijacking attempt still a possibility? It’s less likely, but I think it’s still possible.

My bad Hollywood script exploring this theory will follow shortly…
 
flood
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:29 am

David KM of flightglobal via twitter: "Investigators' analysis of frequency change from #MH370, showing better fit with southern zone than northern."
http://twitter.com/FlightDKM/status/448418463623553025

 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:31 am

Quoting FlyingTurtle, thread 44, # 206 :I must admit that I read the AF447 final report on a long railway journey. It kept my mind busy for hours. I wasn't bored in spite of the seven hours on the train.

I admire that thoroughness   

"Que outras possam viver" scribbled on the margin. "That others may live."

"So that others may live" is also the beautiful motto of the US Coastguard, isn't it ?

To really learn some lessons, one must have passion for the subject at hand, even if the accident reports detail great losses of life. In such a case like AF447 or MH370, I find it hard to distinguish "ghoulish interest" from true passion.

I beg to differ ; the true passionates stay away from mass hysteria, sensationalism and blaming games.
They want to understand and keep their minds open.
The others........

I'm not an aviation professional, but somehow it is a calming and reassuring activity, learning from and understanding such accidents.

A sentiment that honors you.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 194):
We don't know if that is IAS, GS or TAS. If it is IAS, at cruise this would not really be low


Not discounting a misquote.

lazybones, # 211 :
Inmarsat knows nothing of the planes indicated airspeed, we would have to assume GS or some Equivalent Airspeed calculation. But it has to be said, either is slow, looks almost like a single engine speed or the last programmed speed was in preparation for an approach somewhere.

No. The original determination of the *loci* at one hour intervals comes from a lot of assumptions, most of which can be eliminated .
I'll upload a series of pics that show the - very probable - set of hypothesis. It is a long range application of an old dead reckoning exercice.


Wingedmigrator, # 213
Now that we know the aircraft crashed in the Indian Ocean, I'd like to take a moment to call out all the blowhards who yanked our terrorist chain (from small-time conspiracy theorists to narcissistic flyers with fish all the way up to retired Pentagon brass talking heads and their sources deep within an alphabet soup of agencies). That's right, stand up and be recognized. You knew nothing worth knowing, and you suck.
Conversely, much praise and gratitude is owed to the engineers who unraveled the Inmarsat data.


A sentiment which I'd very much like to share with you.

jelliesR, # 244
The circle of uncertainty for the impact point of MH370 is HUGE -- and won't get much smaller when they analyse surface debris - given the fortnight that has passed.


No.The uncertainty of the impact point is no longer a circle, and won't change with time.
If anything, if the debris are found, they could narrow further the uncertainty as we could bactrack their path with wind and current data.

Starlionblue, # 251
According to Chris McLaughlin, senior vice president of external affairs at Inmarsat.
“Just a single ‘ping’ can be used to say the plane was both powered up and travelling. And then by a process of elimination comparing it to other known flights and established that it went south.”
As I understand it, the boffins analysed the Doppler pattern of all the different signals from all the different aircraft to come up with a pattern consistent with the southerly arc.


I agree with the way you understand Mr McLaughlin's comment, but that is the second part of their work : using Doppler shifts to confirm / refine the findings on the southern track

(Edited after flood's # 31 on this thread :
David KM of flightglobal via twitter: "Investigators' analysis of frequency change from #MH370, showing better fit with southern zone than northern."
http://twitter.com/FlightDKM/status/448418463623553025


Thanks. It clearly shows the reason why the southern track fits the original NTSB assumption and the Doppler shifts helping.
Nice find !

[Edited 2014-03-25 04:47:29]
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GZed
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:33 am

Warning - Pure speculation from this point on:

The hijacker/s were well educated in what systems to force the pilots to turn off, and may have convinced the crew to carry out their wishes quickly and without any funny business. Perhaps with a knife held to one of the pilots throats. At this point the hijacker/s request that their planned destination be programmed in.

But, somewhere between comm’s blackout and the final turn to the left, the pilot at the controls realises their horrible fate and gets desperate. Perhaps the other pilot has already been killed for trying to resist. The sole surviving pilot feels his only remaining option is to attempt to kill the hijacker.

Worried that his last ditch effort may fail, he first programmes in a final turn (or turns) to the left, without the hijacker’s knowledge, to take the aircraft out of harm’s way. Then, with his trusty pocket knife in hand he turns and dives for the hijacker, severely wounding him. The hijacker then slits the final remaining pilot’s throat, as his final act, then collapses in the cockpit and bleeds to death.

The plane flys on…
 
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zeke
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:38 am

A very simple question for people who know 777s.....

Could a split beverage on the centre console take out the FMC/TCAS/Radio and cause smoke in the cockpit ?

One reason for erratic tracks could be that the pilots could not see the FM, glare-shield, or displays.
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damirc
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:39 am

Quoting GZed (Reply 33):
The hijacker/s were well educated in what systems to force the pilots to turn off, and may have convinced the crew to carry out their wishes quickly and without any funny business. Perhaps with a knife held to one of the pilots throats. At this point the hijacker/s request that their planned destination be programmed in.

I don't believe it was pax initiated. Still believe the reason for the disappearance lies on the flight deck. I find it hard to imagine that within 120 seconds (the time from the last ATC communication until the ADS-B went down) someone managed to enter the flight deck, take over the commands, initiate a turn around - all while the flight crew didn't either set the transpoder to the rather well known hijack code or communicate in any way they have a hijack situation on hands.

Either one of the flight crew or the "in" of the hijackers was they've figured out how to beat the flight deck door. I deem the latter improbable, but if true would pose an imminent danger to other aircrafts.

D.
 
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anfromme
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:43 am

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 248):
We do not know that for a fact and we should try to stay as positive as we can. I know some aviation enthusiasts who refuse to believe it is down until they actually find parts of a plane. Until then, to them, the plane could be on an island somewhere where all the people are alive.

That's exactly why you would make an announcement like they did yesterday.
Because that's a false hope.
There are many planes that crashed without any wreckage ever being found; let's be realistic: they didn't all land on some island with all or even some of the people still alive, but unable to contact anybody for years or even decades.

We have a plane that went missing over two weeks ago, with no sign from anybody on board since. We know it flew on for about 7 hours after it went drastically off course. We also now know - given the analysis from Inmarsat and the AAIB - that it flew along the "South corridor", which means its last position, with fuel for about 30-60 minutes of flight left, was about two hours' flight away from any land to even crash-land a 777.

Based on this, announcing that the plane was lost with all lives on board means we can finally start accepting this tragic loss of life.
There's still plenty left to do in finding the wreckage and determining what exactly happened that led to this disaster.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 253):
Horribly insulting. They probably know that for a family to retain a lawyer is going to be in the $3-5,000+ range, just to start. There's going to be a few lawyers looking on contingency at this.

I wouldn't accept anything less than $10 million USD in a negligence fatality lawsuit.

Without going into what sum you put against a life, you're making some bold statements here, considering that no negligence (let alone gross negligence) has been proven against anybody so far, as we don't even know what exactly happened.
42
 
Gonzalo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:44 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 34):
Could a split beverage on the centre console take out the FMC/TCAS/Radio and cause smoke in the cockpit ?

I'm very very far away from being someone "who knows the 777s", but having in mind incidents of the past where flight crew has spilled liquids over the panels, without any major consequence ( except maybe a wounded pride ), I would say that you should spill a very big quantity of liquid to cause such massive failure.... Occam's Razor comes to mind again !!    

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David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:50 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 26):
Granted MH/Malaysia botched this investigation every possible way

"Botched", in "every possible way"? Really?   
 
JimJupiter
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:00 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 38):

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 26):
Granted MH/Malaysia botched this investigation every possible way

"Botched", in "every possible way"? Really?   

Sure. There have been so many investigations of this kind in the past few years, that we can easily compare and see which nation did best and who did worst...  
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
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anfromme
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:01 pm

Quoting liquidair (Reply 2):
Whether that's true or not, i think we have to recognise that making an announcement in the way they did, based on algorithmic proof rather than solid evidence, was an incredibly ill thought out procedure.
Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 5):
Seems the Malaysians can do whatever they want - people will find a way to turn it against them. Sigh.

  

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):
Unless of course someone thinks it is all a coverup. The problem is that you can't change the mind of the dedicated conspiracy theoriest. He will find ways to ignore or twist any facts that do not fit his view. You could show himwreckage and they would say it was fake.

  

Quoting liquidair (Reply 18):
i fear, in the long term, unlike AF447(from which there is no equivocal interpretation) this is always going to be a conspiracy theorist's ideal candidate.

Well, there are consipracy theorists who still claim it was a cover-up, the wreckage was planted, as were the CVR and FDR...

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 25):
He es also missing. The investigators should speak to her and probably already have. The news media? Please no! It's bad enough already to see pictures of desparate relatives on every news site on the internet. They should just leave them alone, and we (the public, or so) should stop pretending that we have a God-given right to be informed about everything and anything concerning the private lives of individuals involved in this sad story. The sense of entitlement is very strong on the interwebz these days...

  

Quoting garpd (Reply 8):
What some are describing and bungling, spreading misinformation, etc, I see as a group of people caught in the spotlight of a relentless world wide media with reporters hounding the families, goading them on to pressure the authorities for information.

  
I fully agree with your whole post.

Quoting skopsko (Reply 21):
Is it true that the pilot's wife and children disappeared a day before the flight?

They allegedly moved out and there were - allegedly - some marital troubles. But from what I've read, they didn't disappear.
42
 
na
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:02 pm

Quoting JimJupiter (Reply 25):
The investigators should speak to her and probably already have.

I read they haven´t questioned her until sunday. Which I find very odd in the light of possible scenarios. Respect for relatives seems to be regarded higher in Malaysia than thorough investigation. A potentially dangerous sequence of priority.

Quoting flood (Reply 31):

Thank you for posting that, it makes the assumption of the Inmarsat experts somewhat clearer.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):

One of the objects has been identified as a whale carcass.

Ok. I wonder what the other things are that they hopefully search for tomorrow again. I still wonder why the published photos so far are so much out of focus. Before the search for MH370 started I was quite sure that these SAR and especially reconnaissance planes would have cameras on board which can read a newspaper from one mile distance.
 
COOEE
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:05 pm

Helios flight 522..
( I called it on day 3 ) just google it..
No fire, just scale it up to a 777

Why is everyone
promoting hijacking or suicide, just does not make sense - I believe the pilots instigated the turn back to land in Malaysia, but hypoxia rapidly set in. I think it could explain the random odd "Goodnight sign off call" due to onset hypoxia ( hypoxic impaired decision making)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c6P42WxyPM&feature=player_embedded

OK, this is a TV doco, so excuse the sensationalism - but has anyone watched this ??

AIR CRASH INVESTIGATION Helios Flight 522
part1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWJzgljoJ7A
part2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v1JQRu-gGI
part3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASfctWYc6k0
part4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2FfWhW-qRc
part5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGWgzB-ceD0

I still think this is worth a watch, as this precedent has happened before to commercial flights.

I think there is a huge fall out to happen here over the next 6 months. be it passport forgeries going to Europe, or at Malaysia's Air maintenance or with Boeing's alerts.
Even later at why Malaysia's Radar installations were just not operational. or how badly the long entrenched Malaysian Government mis-handled their response to the public.
 
SRT75
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:08 pm

Certain news reports put back into play this morning the possibility of cabin depressurization/on-board fire or toxic. An example:

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news-58368.html

Not sure how we got all wrapped around the axle on the rogue pilot terrorist theory when depressurization and an unconscious crew and passengers would best explain no radio contact, no cell phone contact, and the plane flying until fuel reserves are exhausted.
 
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garpd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:09 pm

Quoting COOEE (Reply 42):
Helios flight 522..
( I called it on day 3 ) just google it..
No fire, just scale it up to a 777

You again?!

No. Just no.

The reasons why this theory falls down are plentiful and discussed to death.

Move on already.
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David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:09 pm

Quoting COOEE (Reply 42):
I believe the pilots instigated the turn back to land in Malaysia, but hypoxia rapidly set in. I think it could explain the random odd "Goodnight sign off call" due to onset hypoxia ( hypoxic impaired decision making)

And the transponder? The sign-off doesn't seem to be regarded as unusual by other pilots.
 
voodoo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:09 pm

Just occured to me, that if they had made the last major left turn (~ 90 degree change) at the previous point where a right turn was made ....they would have flown straight back to Kuala Lumpur. Almost makes me think someone was trying to temporarily use no-instruments dead reckoning without realizing the right turn over the Malacca Strait was made. When would sunrise have been visible along the route(s) shown?

http://s11.postimg.org/rhf3n7drn/1525257_740971732614509_298214666_n.png

[Edited 2014-03-25 05:10:56]

[Edited 2014-03-25 05:11:57]

[Edited 2014-03-25 05:13:10]
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checksixx
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:14 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 213):
Now that we know the aircraft crashed in the Indian Ocean, I'd like to take a moment to call out all the blowhards who yanked our terrorist chain (from small-time conspiracy theorists to narcissistic flyers with fish all the way up to retired Pentagon brass talking heads and their sources deep within an alphabet soup of agencies). That's right, stand up and be recognized. You knew nothing worth knowing, and you suck.

Conversely, much praise and gratitude is owed to the engineers who unraveled the Inmarsat data.

The clear order of business now is to find the wreck, a task that is shaping up to be far more difficult than AF447, and to learn as much as possible so that others may live.

Whoa!! This car is coming to a screeching halt! We DO NOT know the aircraft crashed anywhere. There is no evidence of that yet. The Inmarsat data everyone is talking about has not been shared or released. We have no idea if terrorism was or was not involved. We have no evidence of any kind regarding the aircraft or its passengers directly. You assume too much and then you want to 'call out' people?? Be careful you don't end up with your foot in your mouth...

This is what was released: ""We have to assume beyond any reasonable doubt that MH370 has been lost and that none of those on board survived," Malaysian Airlines told family members of the missing passengers.

Assumption beyond a reasonable doubt?? LoL...Really?? And you are subscribing to this with NO evidence of any kind??? I would suggest waiting on calling people out until more substantial evidence is obtained/released/verified.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:14 pm

I also like this image:

http://i.imgur.com/Etrg0n7.png

It describes well where they were getting the doppler info from - by combining the inclination the satellite with a potential aircraft heading, you would get different results from an aircraft that was moving north than moving south. If the satellite was perfectly geostationary (if its inclination had recently been corrected), you would expect this data to be a mirrored on the north and south tracks. We are lucky that this is a very old satellite and wasting limited fuel on inclination correction is not a priority.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45

Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:15 pm

Quoting checksixx (Reply 47):
We DO NOT know the aircraft crashed anywhere. There is no evidence of that yet. The Inmarsat data everyone is talking about has not been shared or released.

We do. It has.

The aircraft crashed into the ocean. There is nowhere for it to have landed. Even a perfect ditching would mean everyone has perished by this point.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.

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