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Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:40 am

 
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airportugal310
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:22 am

A great development I agree, although I guess I am not really aligned with this line here from the article:

Just before the failed vote, Ford complained bitterly about the lack of will to fast-track the expansion.

“We can get this done if it’s the will of council,” Ford says. “Unfortunately, we don’t have that will today.”


Is that, ummmm, the Canadian version of "bitterness" because I'm failing to see it in that that line?
(assuming the line is the supposed bitterness the article refers to, because it isn't...)
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atcsundevil
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:24 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 1):
Is that, ummmm, the Canadian version of "bitterness" because I'm failing to see it in that that line?

What the article didn't say was that the mayor yelled this statement at the journalists, then tackled a councilman. (kidding, of course...at least I hope so, since he's already done both of those things)

I think this is great news for Porter and for the city. Provided the expansion is done sensibly and in a controlled manner -- which it appears be doing -- YTZ and YYZ can compliment each other well, just like DCA/IAD and LCY/LHR. I'm glad to see they are open to the expansion in the interest of business and improved infrastructure, unlike London with LHR's badly needed expansion. I'm sure residents in the affected areas aren't happy, but I'd have to assume that a CS100 on a steep approach would be preferable to a Q400. Any noise impact should definitely be outweighed by the benefit to the city by allowing larger jet aircraft that comply with the noise restrictions.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:28 pm

Here is the writeup from the Toronto Globe & Mail. It looks like both mayoral candidates are against the idea of expansion.

Toronto To Allow Talks On Expansion Of Billy Bishop Airport

"Two leading mayoral candidates have already come out against the proposal. John Tory called for a fast deferral, while Olivia Chow pressed for a prompt rejection. And a group of councillors is expected to try to impose a ban on jets at council, or “receive” the report – which would put the whole matter on the shelf."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...airport-expansion/article17676423/
 
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yyz717
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:53 pm

I was one of about 120 Torontonians who gave a deputation yesterday. I argued (briefly, with my 3 minute slot) strongly in favour of the runway extension and the allowance of the CS-100.

The executive committee (12 of the 45-member council) voted last night in favour of the proposals by 11-1. Just 12 of the remaining 33 votes are needed to pass. Fingers crossed.

As a resident of Harbourfront (adjacent to YTZ) and an avid sailboat racer, I can vouch that there are absolutely no noise issues nor threats to the Waterfront by the Porter proposals.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:07 pm

As much as I hate to be the pessimist I have a hard time believing that YTZ will have the customers for longer-distance flights. Right now the airport is primarily utilized by passengers who live downtown or wealthy businesses. Porter is expensive and with companies continuing to cut business travel and reduce costs, it simply is not worth the extra $ just to leave/arrive downtown. YTZ as a transit point? Unless they open some restaurants, shops, and offer services I can't see the benefit to flying say YVR-YTZ-YHZ instead of going via YUL or YYZ.
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cloudboy
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
As much as I hate to be the pessimist I have a hard time believing that YTZ will have the customers for longer-distance flights. Right now the airport is primarily utilized by passengers who live downtown or wealthy businesses. Porter is expensive and with companies continuing to cut business travel and reduce costs, it simply is not worth the extra $ just to leave/arrive downtown. YTZ as a transit point? Unless they open some restaurants, shops, and offer services I can't see the benefit to flying say YVR-YTZ-YHZ instead of going via YUL or YYZ.

Hardly. Most people in this area (New England) pretty much avoid going to Canada because it costs so much to get there. Driving takes too long and is a pain in the winter, and flights used to be way overpriced. Now at least you can afford to fly to Toronto, and fares to Montreal have dropped dramatically as well. Air Canada has to much control over YYZ, this gives another airline a shot. Maybe people will start visiting Canada now once they can get there.
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N1120A
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:27 pm

Part of the problem is Rob Ford being for any of this.
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jalarner
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:27 pm

Edits got messed up a bit  Sad
Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
Porter is expensive and with companies continuing to cut business travel and reduce costs, it simply is not worth the extra $ just to leave/arrive downtown.

All depends where you live. Friend of mine hopes on the streetcar and is there in a few mintes. I live in Milton, and before that Mississauga...I could be at Pearson in 10 minutes unless it is rush hour. Add $50-70 cab ride each way and I bet the downtown people would fly for a little more money rather than for a cab.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
Unless they open some restaurants, shops, and offer services I can't see the benefit to flying say YVR-YTZ-YHZ instead of going via YUL or YYZ

Would that not be a positive for the expansion, showing economic growth and giving back, as opposed to just taking? Of course this would be a slow build as the demand increases.

Overall I am all for the expansion....but as I mentioned I do not live very close to the airport.

[Edited 2014-03-26 10:37:23]
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rampbro
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
Right now the airport is primarily utilized by passengers who live downtown or wealthy businesses. Porter is expensive and with companies continuing to cut business travel and reduce costs, it simply is not worth the extra $ just to leave/arrive downtown.

It certainly is worth the money, as Porter has proven through their expansion over the last decade. Toronto (especially the downtown area) is only getting wealthier, and the transfer to Pearson is only getting more time consuming and frustrating.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
Unless they open some restaurants, shops, and offer services I can't see the benefit to flying say YVR-YTZ-YHZ instead of going via YUL or YYZ.

Not sure. With an airline like Porter that has an on-board service, there is no need to rely on concourse food and bev. As well, taxi times at Pearson during peak hours can get ridiculous. Add a need to de-ice and there's a 40 minute delay easy. Keep in mind that downtown Toronto is right there - an hour connection time at YTZ would be more than enough to get over to the Toronto 'mainland' and grab a bit. You could have decent visit to the HHOF with a 90 minute cnx.

I think its worth noting that once upon a time a bunch of NIMBYs didn't want a great bloody condo forest built on Toronto's harbour front. Now, many of the residents of those once-maligned buildings are perpetrating the same flawed concept.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Part of the problem is Rob Ford being for any of this.

Some serious, honest leadership and vision could go a long way, but sadly Ford has blown his chance(s) to provide this. This is not an unimportant project for the city, and failure to move forwards on this development due to political paralysis does not look good. Ford focussed too much on sports as a youth, and now everything is a football to him.

Quoting jalarner (Reply 8):
Would that not be a positive for the expansion, showing economic growth and giving back, as opposed to just taking?

Porter does not 'just take' - it delivers a critical service to major generators of value in Toronto, the importance of which cannot be understated. Primary effects aside, Porter supports all kinds of jobs in Toronto by being a major purchaser of Q400 aircraft.
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 9):
Porter does not 'just take' - it delivers a critical service to major generators of value in Toronto, the importance of which cannot be understated. Primary effects aside, Porter supports all kinds of jobs in Toronto by being a major purchaser of Q400 aircraft.

I should have been more clear on that. From all the nay-sayers it looks like take. A friend of mine works in Downsview. He used to be on the -8 line but now builds Globals.
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planemaker
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:19 pm

The Port Authority, a key player - obviously, is not totally onboard...

Port Authority doesn’t want ‘mini-Pearson,’ meeting on island airport hears

Quote:
“We have a very fine airport — Pearson airport. What we do have is a magnificent regional airport facility on the lake,” Wilson said (Port Authority CEO).

That is just one of the weakness in Porter's plan.
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Vio
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:33 pm

I don't see the issue with YTZ expanding for jet service. I don't know why some waterfront residents complain about the air traffic there (noise pollution), when the freeway is by far the loudest thing around. I have a friend who lives on the waterfront and all I can hear is traffic, sirens, etc. I can barely hear the Q400 coming in, and even that, only if I pay attention to it. I doubt an CS100 would be much louder. Hell, helicopter traffic and boat traffic is louder than that.

On a side, note, shame on Toronto and whoever ran that city for the past X years for not connecting the city with proper rail to YYZ... but someone seems to have a huge interest in the astronomical taxi prices from YYZ...
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planemaker
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:33 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 12):
I don't know why some waterfront residents complain about the air traffic there (noise pollution)

Don't think for a minute that waterfront residents don't complain about vehicle noise... there just isn't anything they can do about it. On the other hand, they can do something about airport noise.

And while the noise issue is valid for some people others clearly use it as a negative talking point even though it doesn't necessarily affect them all that deleteriously. But aircraft noise is not the only noise nor issue.

Putting the aircraft noise issue to the side, there are other "big" issues.

One is infrastructure costs. Not just to expand the runway at both ends but, far more critical from the public's perspective, are the "mainland" infrastructure costs which is reported to be $300 million. The source and spending of tax dollars, and whether that is the best cost/benefit spending of tax dollars, has to be resolved first.

Second is "mainland" vehicle congestion (and pollution and noise). Porter's conditional order & options for the CS100 eventually could replace the current Q400 fleet. That could represent an increase in pax numbers of close to 60%. So there is the legitimate opposition to the increase in traffic, noise and pollution on the "mainland side" that increased aircraft capacity represents.
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INFINITI329
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:55 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 13):
Second is "mainland" vehicle congestion (and pollution and noise). Porter's conditional order & options for the CS100 eventually could replace the current Q400 fleet

I dont see PD replacing the Q400 with the CS100. They will compliment each other

Quoting vio (Reply 12):
On a side, note, shame on Toronto and whoever ran that city for the past X years for not connecting the city with proper rail to YYZ... but someone seems to have a huge interest in the astronomical taxi prices from YYZ..

For a modern city like Toronto i think their transit system is sub par. With only 4 subway lines and commuter lines that run only during rush hour i think can do much better. The rail ink between union and pearson should have been done years ago.


Who owns the airport? I know the TPA operates it but was unsure it they were the actual owners.
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:32 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 14):
I dont see PD replacing the Q400 with the CS100.

The airport is slot restricted. Going to a larger aircraft is the only way to increase pax numbers. As it is, because of the short runway, the Q400 can only be configured at 70 pax max.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 14):
Who owns the airport? I know the TPA operates it but was unsure it they were the actual owners.

Yes, the TPA owns the airport.
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ezalpha
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
As much as I hate to be the pessimist I have a hard time believing that YTZ will have the customers for longer-distance flights. Right now the airport is primarily utilized by passengers who live downtown or wealthy businesses. Porter is expensive and with companies continuing to cut business travel and reduce costs, it simply is not worth the extra $ just to leave/arrive downtown. YTZ as a transit point? Unless they open some restaurants, shops, and offer services I can't see the benefit to flying say YVR-YTZ-YHZ instead of going via YUL or YYZ.

Why be pessimistic? Be skeptical if you like, but time will tell. I don't agree with your assertion that people don't want an option for longer range flights. I live in Oshawa. Fact, I can leave my car at home and use public transit to get to YTZ. Can't do that from YYZ. I've flown to BOS and MDW on Porter and it was a pleasure. They know how to treat customers. I wouldn't consider doing that from Pearson. Long drive (I do it every day!), parking cost that borders on extortion and standing in endless lines, etc, etc.. Porter to Florida or the west coast can't come soon enough.
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:04 pm

AC will do everything in their power to make sure this doesn't go through.

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StarAC17
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:15 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 2):
Provided the expansion is done sensibly and in a controlled manner -- which it appears be doing -- YTZ and YYZ can compliment each other well, just like DCA/IAD and LCY/LHR.

It can, however I think that PD thinks that it is going to try an monopolize jet operations which I hope doesn't happen. Many US airlines as well as AC and WS might want to operate to YTZ and may order a few to launch YTZ.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 5):
As much as I hate to be the pessimist I have a hard time believing that YTZ will have the customers for longer-distance flights. Right now the airport is primarily utilized by passengers who live downtown or wealthy businesses

There are more and more young people living in the downtown core and if they offer flight to Florida, LAS, YVR and even Cuba or Mexico then they can get a market for tourism. I am not sure how high the yields will be however.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Part of the problem is Rob Ford being for any of this.

He represents residents of the cities who are no where near the airport so they can support the initiative without dealing with the consequences. Rob Ford may be the mayor of the city but he really has quite a bit of contempt for those who live downtown.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 14):
For a modern city like Toronto i think their transit system is sub par. With only 4 subway lines and commuter lines that run only during rush hour i think can do much better. The rail ink between union and pearson should have been done years ago.

The rail link to YYZ should be complete for the Pan-Am games next year and yes the transit system is sub par and that is the biggest issue that will decide the municipal election in October.

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 6):
Air Canada has to much control over YYZ, this gives another airline a shot. Maybe people will start visiting Canada now once they can get there.

Calvin Rovinescu wrote an op-ed in the Toronto Star and welcomes PD to compete with AC at YYZ. Also US airlines are free to compete with AC at YYZ whenever they feel and if they feel that AC has too much control then by all means compete with them. We Canadians would welcome it!!
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brilondon
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:17 pm

Quoting ezalpha (Reply 16):
Can't do that from YYZ.

I don't understand what you mean you can't take public transit to YYZ. The TTC serves the airport 24 hours a day. Yes it is not as convenient but they will have a direct rail link eventually, maybe.

I doubt that it will get passed through Toronto city council. They hate progress and don't want people coming to the downtown easily. Take the Gardiner for example as it is in desperate need of upgrading and expansion to alleviate the congestion that occurs every day between the hours of 4 am to about 9 pm during the week and then it is chaos on the weekends as that is when they either have it closed for something stupid or construction.

The other thing is that the residents that don't want the airport to be open at all are pretty powerful in terms of political clout on the council.
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planemaker
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:47 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 9):
Some serious, honest leadership and vision could go a long way, but sadly Ford has blown his chance(s) to provide this.

It certainly didn't help Porter that Deluce went to see Ford privately without registering as a lobbyist before he announced his plans publicly. Secondly, because Deluce and other family members contributed to Ford's mayoral campaign, Ford's pushing for approval for Porter's plans obviously further taints the process.

Quoting ezalpha (Reply 16):
Porter to Florida or the west coast can't come soon enough.

As the TPA CEO said: “We have a very fine airport — Pearson airport. What we do have is a magnificent regional airport facility on the lake,” Wilson said .

There is nothing "regional" about Florida or the west coast.  
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
if they offer flight to Florida, LAS, YVR and even Cuba or Mexico then they can get a market for tourism. I am not sure how high the yields will be however.

Of course, the principle rationale for the island airport disappears... convenient regional flights to Ottawa, Montreal, etc., where the time savings are significant compared to hiking out to YYZ. Flying to Florida or the west coast the time saving as a % of the total travel time becomes marginal... even less so if when the Pan-Am rail link to YYZ becomes operational.
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KLSMB
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:16 am

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 6):
Hardly. Most people in this area (New England) pretty much avoid going to Canada because it costs so much to get there. Driving takes too long and is a pain in the winter, and flights used to be way overpriced. Now at least you can afford to fly to Toronto, and fares to Montreal have dropped dramatically as well. Air Canada has to much control over YYZ, this gives another airline a shot. Maybe people will start visiting Canada now once they can get there.

Flight costs at all Canadian airports are overpriced because of Federal Government fees and regulations. This has been an issue as long as I can remember, and it's the only reason why flights from US airports often cost so much less. To solve this problem, there needs to be some dramatic changes made at the federal level, which I can't see happening anytime soon.

Your comment about Air Canada having too much control over YYZ is nonsense. Yes, Air Canada uses YYZ as it's primary hub and that surely gives them some bargaining power with the Greater Toronto Airports Authority. However, there are over 75 other airlines at Pearson and many of them are competing directly with Air Canada. This includes competition on almost all domestic routes within Canada, as well as many transborder and international routes, for example LHR, HKG, PEK, CDG, LAX, JFK, LGA, MIA, ORD, IAH, DTW and DFW to name just a few. If you look at the Toronto Pearson website, you'll see that there are routes operated by many airlines to destinations around the world that are not offered by Air Canada at all.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:20 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 20):
Of course, the principle rationale for the island airport disappears... convenient regional flights to Ottawa, Montreal, etc., where the time savings are significant compared to hiking out to YYZ. Flying to Florida or the west coast the time saving as a % of the total travel time becomes marginal... even less so if when the Pan-Am rail link to YYZ becomes operational.

They have that already with their current fleet.

Porter absolutely wants in the want in on those intercontinental markets as well and that is exactly how they have been marketing their expansion if the runway in indeed extended.
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planemaker
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:32 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 22):
They have that already with their current fleet.

Yes, that is what I've said.  
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 22):
Porter absolutely wants in the want in on those intercontinental markets as well and that is exactly how they have been marketing their expansion if the runway in indeed extended.

Yes, because they absolutely need those markets... but as the TPA CEO says - those markets are Pearson's raison d'etre.
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Viscount724
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:39 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 2):
Provided the expansion is done sensibly and in a controlled manner -- which it appears be doing -- YYZ can compliment each other well, just like DCA/IAD and LCY/LHR.

It can, however I think that PD thinks that it is going to try an monopolize jet operations which I hope doesn't happen. Many US airlines as well as AC and WS might want to operate to YTZ.

Where will the slots come from for additional AC and new WS and US carrier services? They could only add service if PD cuts their flights. I can't see PD investing in a fleet of new jets if they have to reduce the number of flights. High frequency is a major advantage of PD's current service on their primary routes.

[Edited 2014-03-26 17:40:17]
 
planemaker
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:43 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Where will the slots come from for additional AC and new WS and US carrier services? They could only add service if PD cuts their flights.

If jets are allowed at the island, the slot issues, which PD now dominate, will become a hot issue. Previously, there had been little interest by AC other than for Montreal in using the Q400. Jets are another matter.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
High frequency is a major advantage of PD's current service on their primary routes.

Frequency goes away with longer and transcon routes and the relatively small PD fleet.
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yyz717
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:15 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Where will the slots come from for additional AC and new WS and US carrier services? They could only add service if PD cuts their flights.

Slots are allocated by the Toronto Port Authority. They can easily issue/release more slots.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Beatyair
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:31 am

The expansion of the Toronto island airport is good news. But I still do not understand why the airport would extend the runway to both the east and the west? Looking at it, it should only be extended to the west(open water).

Porter's exclusive use of the Q400 on the island and getting all that business traffic has pushed both Air Canada and Westjet to buy the Q400 to get in on the action. Now that it looks like the airport expansion may go ahead. Porter's plan to fly the C-Series out of there is more likely now, may push Air Canada into its rumoured purchase of the C-Series. To again, get into the action.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:40 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
It can, however I think that PD thinks that it is going to try an monopolize jet operations which I hope doesn't happen. Many US airlines as well as AC and WS might want to operate to YTZ and may order a few to launch YTZ

Slots were there. Only AC and PD applied for them. You snooze you loose.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 26):
They can easily issue/release more slots

I have read TPA has no intention increasing the number of slots they have now. Other airlines had fair and ample opportunity to pursue these slots just like AC and PD did. Dont come crying now if jets are allowed they had their shot.
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:30 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
It can, however I think that PD thinks that it is going to try an monopolize jet operations which I hope doesn't happen. Many US airlines as well as AC and WS might want to operate to YTZ and may order a few to launch YTZ.

Which is exactly what needs to happen to make this whole thing work. Porter has had amazing success at YTZ and has been the driving force behind the airport's resurgence over the past several years, but if this expansion moves forward, the airport itself needs to move into a new phase as well -- one that includes multiple carriers and competitive services. Sometimes it feels like Porter treats it as "their" airport, and for a long time it has been. That attitude can't continue, and YTZ can't base its success or failure solely on one airline from this point forward. The addition of significant AC service along with WS and a handful of US airlines (provided they all meet the established noise standards, of course) as well as a US Preclearance facility would guarantee YTZ's future.
 
brilondon
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:38 am

Quoting KLSMB (Reply 21):
Flight costs at all Canadian airports are overpriced because of Federal Government fees and regulations. This has been an issue as long as I can remember, and it's the only reason why flights from US airports often cost so much less. To solve this problem, there needs to be some dramatic changes made at the federal level, which I can't see happening anytime soon.

That is not entirely true. The total cost is still quite competitive. I would use YYZ over JFK any day of the week and twice on weekends to compare airports. The comparison being the largest international gateway for each country. Now I get that it is like comparing apples to grapes but I still stand as the airports are for the largest cities in their respective countries.
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yyz717
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:41 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 28):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 26):
They can easily issue/release more slots

I have read TPA has no intention increasing the number of slots they have now. Other airlines had fair and ample opportunity to pursue these slots just like AC and PD did. Dont come crying now if jets are allowed they had their shot.

TPA has the authority to allocate new slots anytime.

They have publicly promised not to do so anytime soon, but in the interests of business development, this can change easily. If a US carrier or even another Canadian carrier (Bearskin, Pascan, for example) came forward requesting additional slots, TPA would be foolish to say no.

At any rate, from what I've heard frequently, the current (new) PD terminal at YTZ (from which all commercial pax ops are provided) is already exceeding capacity and is a bigger constraint than the current "lack" of slots.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
planemaker
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:51 pm

Quoting beatyair (Reply 27):
Porter's exclusive use of the Q400 on the island and getting all that business traffic has pushed both Air Canada and Westjet to buy the Q400 to get in on the action.

Not so.

Quoting beatyair (Reply 27):
To again, get into the action.

Not so.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 29):
Which is exactly what needs to happen to make this whole thing work. Porter has had amazing success at YTZ and has been the driving force behind the airport's resurgence over the past several years, but if this expansion moves forward, the airport itself needs to move into a new phase as well -- one that includes multiple carriers and competitive services. Sometimes it feels like Porter treats it as "their" airport, and for a long time it has been. That attitude can't continue, and YTZ can't base its success or failure solely on one airline from this point forward. The addition of significant AC service along with WS and a handful of US airlines (provided they all meet the established noise standards, of course) as well as a US Preclearance facility would guarantee YTZ's future.

The elephant in the room is that Porter is between a rock and a hard place... and that is what is driving the whole thrust for expansion at the island airport. If true competition is allowed on the island, Porter loses.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 31):
TPA has the authority to allocate new slots anytime.

That is governed by the Tripartite Agreement. The TPA cannot just allocate slots anytime.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 32):
The elephant in the room is that Porter is between a rock and a hard place... and that is what is driving the whole thrust for expansion at the island airport. If true competition is allowed on the island, Porter loses.

Care to explain? What rock and what hard place?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:13 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 32):
The elephant in the room is that Porter is between a rock and a hard place... and that is what is driving the whole thrust for expansion at the island airport. If true competition is allowed on the island, Porter loses.

On what possible basis is PD between a rock and a hard place? PD is a privately held co and does not release financials, but it has a group of private backers who no doubt have a strong interest in their financials.

PD recently placed refundable deposits on 12 CS-100s. If PD was losing $, they would not have had the cash to make those deposits, nor would their private investors have approved the CS-100 order. Clearly, PD is doing well financially, or well enough to proceed with the capital investment associated with the CS-100 order.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:39 pm

Quoting noise (Reply 33):
Care to explain? What rock and what hard place?

Porter has already made two failed attempts to go public, the first in 2010. The reason they require to go public is because that is how the original institutional investors: OMERS, EdgeStone Capital Partners, Borealis Infrastructure, GE Asset Management Incorporated and Dancap Private Equity Inc., cash out and recoup their investment.

With the failed previous attempts to go public, Porter had a "growth story" to try to sell investors on. Now, 4 years later they no longer have the "growth story" due to maxing out on capacity at the island airport coupled with increased competitiveness from Air Canada, and potentially WestJet.

It is imperative for Porter to create a "growth story" in order to be an attractive public investment and that is through an increase in pax and yield. And the only way for Porter to do so is to a) increase capacity from the seat limited Q400, and b) extend beyond the regional limit of the Q400. The only answer to a) & b) is the CS100.

So if jets are not allowed on the island Porter is pretty much "screwed" in the mid term.

The above is the rock. Now the hard place...

If jets are allowed, both Air Canada and WestJet will go all out to counter Porter... and the artillery that they can bring to bear in such a fight will severely impact Porter. So, again, Porter will not have a "growth story" to go to the public markets with.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
PD recently placed refundable deposits on 12 CS-100s.

This is what Porter states: "Deluce has pushed for a swift decision because Porter must begin to put down non-refundable deposits beginning in April."

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
Clearly, PD is doing well financially, or well enough to proceed with the capital investment associated with the CS-100 order.

They haven't proceeded with any capital investment yet and Deluce's statement above shows that they won't be making any "capital investments".
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 32):
The elephant in the room is that Porter is between a rock and a hard place... and that is what is driving the whole thrust for expansion at the island airport. If true competition is allowed on the island, Porter loses.

I agree. Porter is in one hell of a dilemma, because they need to grow. For them to grow, the airport needs to expand, which opens the door to other airlines entering the fray as serious competitors. While that would be outstanding for the airport and for passengers, it's pretty terrible for Porter. They risk losing everything they've worked so hard to build, but the same result happens if growth becomes stagnant and the airport doesn't expand. The only way forward for them is to support the expansion, buy CS-100s, and fight tooth and nail to retain as much market share as possible just like every other airline in history.
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:45 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 26):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Where will the slots come from for additional AC and new WS and US carrier services? They could only add service if PD cuts their flights.

Slots are allocated by the Toronto Port Authority. They can easily issue/release more slots.

But how many additional flights can YTZ handle considering the size of the terminal and related facilities? I've used YTZ a few times and it doesn't look like there's much room for expansion, and when I was there virtually all gates were in use.

And wouldn't any increase in operations make the airport's opponents even more vocal?
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:05 am

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 36):
I agree. Porter is in one hell of a dilemma, because they need to grow.

  

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 36):
They risk losing everything they've worked so hard to build, but the same result happens if growth becomes stagnant and the airport doesn't expand.

  

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 36):
The only way forward for them is to support the expansion, buy CS-100s, and fight tooth and nail to retain as much market share as possible just like every other airline in history.

Even with light competition (they have a virtual monopoly on the island), ROI has been poor. Since the day they started Porter has been racing the clock to get an IPO done... and the clock hasn't been their friend. No one is going to invest in an IPO that doesn't have a compelling growth story... and unless jets are approved and all the infrastructure work on the airport and land side are in place there is not even a potential growth story.

And even if the jets are approved, as you say they would have to fight tooth and nail but they are bring a knife to a gun fight. And in addition to increased competition on the island there will be increased competition from YYZ when the Union Pearson rail link is completed for the Pan Am Games by 2015... before the first CS100 will even EIS.

Quote:
Snowbirds in downtown condos and offices will be able to walk the PATH in their shorts to Union Station, pull their bags along the Skywalk to the UP Express terminal, check in with their airline and board a train that leaves every 15 minutes. Twenty-five minutes later they will be inside the airport.

.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
But how many additional flights can YTZ handle considering the size of the terminal and related facilities?

.
Right now, realistically, none.
.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
I've used YTZ a few times and it doesn't look like there's much room for expansion, and when I was there virtually all gates were in use.

.
And the CS100 is a larger aircraft carrying ~60% more pax... so factor in all the infrastructure increase required.
.

.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
And wouldn't any increase in operations make the airport's opponents even more vocal?

.
They are already waiting to jump on the noise made when the CS100 is using thrust reverser as it will be considerably noiser than the approach.

[Edited 2014-03-27 17:45:00]
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:17 am

Why does porter have to keep YTZ as their hub? Worst case scenario, can't they simply start focusing on YYZ or YOW in the event the YTZ expansion proposal is denied?
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:35 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 35):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 34):
Clearly, PD is doing well financially, or well enough to proceed with the capital investment associated with the CS-100 order.

They haven't proceeded with any capital investment yet and Deluce's statement above shows that they won't be making any "capital investments".

Porter has already made REFUNDABLE deposits on the CS-100. The non-refundable deposits begin in April. Do you think the current investors would have approved the refundable deposits if PD did not have good financials?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
But how many additional flights can YTZ handle considering the size of the terminal and related facilities? I've used YTZ a few times and it doesn't look like there's much room for expansion, and when I was there virtually all gates were in use.

The terminal capacity is a bigger growth constraint than the slot issue, for sure.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
planemaker
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:21 am

Quoting noise (Reply 39):
Why does porter have to keep YTZ as their hub? Worst case scenario, can't they simply start focusing on YYZ or YOW in the event the YTZ expansion proposal is denied?

Because they have a virtual monopoly on the island. If they move to Pearson they are up against not just Cdn carriers but American as well.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 40):
Porter has already made REFUNDABLE deposits on the CS-100.

If they had paid a "refundable deposit" (which no where is there ANY record or statement that they have) Deluce would not have stated:

Quote:
"Deluce has pushed for a swift decision because Porter must begin to put down non-refundable deposits beginning in April."

Quite obviously Deluce would be saying that their deposit becomes non-refundable in April... if they had paid one - which they didn't.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:59 am

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 29):
Sometimes it feels like Porter treats it as "their" airport, and for a long time it has been

They should. PD invested in the airport when no one else would. When it was a ugly duckling no one wanted any part of her but now she was swan everyone wants in. To bad I say.
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:20 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 38):
Even with light competition (they have a virtual monopoly on the island), ROI has been poor. Since the day they started Porter has been racing the clock to get an IPO done... and the clock hasn't been their friend. No one is going to invest in an IPO that doesn't have a compelling growth story... and unless jets are approved and all the infrastructure work on the airport and land side are in place there is not even a potential growth story.

And even if the jets are approved, as you say they would have to fight tooth and nail but they are bring a knife to a gun fight. And in addition to increased competition on the island there will be increased competition from YYZ when the Union Pearson rail link is completed for the Pan Am Games by 2015... before the first CS100 will even EIS.

I know they've been trying for a while, but they really needed to get their IPO done a couple of years ago. They would have been so much better positioned. Now they're in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Their future is now contingent on the airport expansion and allowance of jet aircraft and a subsequent IPO, but attracting significant investment will be incredibly difficult because the expansion will bring in competition, which is something that Porter is in no condition to manage since they've never had to. It wouldn't make any sense to invest in a company that's potentially about to lose one half or more of its market share. If they can't attract investment, then the IPO fails. Then they've given up their monopoly and opened up the airport to more formidable competitors. Then they bleed a slow, agonizing death. Or something like that.

Well......that sucks.....

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 42):
They should. PD invested in the airport when no one else would. When it was a ugly duckling no one wanted any part of her but now she was swan everyone wants in. To bad I say.

Too bad, indeed. They opened this Pandora's box!
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:43 pm

PD can easily start focusing on airports other than YTZ, such as YOW. I don't know what the obsession is with having YTZ their sole hub.
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:50 pm

Quoting noise (Reply 44):
PD can easily start focusing on airports other than YTZ, such as YOW. I don't know what the obsession is with having YTZ their sole hub.

PD's success is the location of YTZ with reference to Canada's largest city. Period.

Yes, they have good service, cool ads, free beer, etc ... but that is not the reason for their success.

If they started a focus hub where they did not have that monopoly, they would be just another airline. Time and time again, statistics have shown that people will not choose an airline because they have free beer and F/A's in 1950's uniforms. So they better bring their A game if they expect to compete with AC and WS!
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:49 pm

Quoting noise (Reply 44):
PD can easily start focusing on airports other than YTZ, such as YOW. I don't know what the obsession is with having YTZ their sole hub.

Exactly. Or YHZ. As they are already doing on a limited basis.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
PD's success is the location of YTZ with reference to Canada's largest city. Period.

Not "period", but primarily. PD moved into the YOW/YUL-YHZ markets after the Canjet withdrawal and seem to doing fine with these "non-YTZ" routes, including YHZ-YYT. As the PD brand becomes more established, it opens up opportunities for more markets, that may (or may not) begin and end with YTZ.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):

PD's success is the location of YTZ with reference to Canada's largest city. Period.

Yes, they have good service, cool ads, free beer, etc ... but that is not the reason for their success.

If they started a focus hub where they did not have that monopoly, they would be just another airline. Time and time again, statistics have shown that people will not choose an airline because they have free beer and F/A's in 1950's uniforms. So they better bring their A game if they expect to compete with AC and WS!

and yet no one can point to a real example of that. I beg to differ - I think Porter's success, at least in terms of their Us service - is precisely because they are a bit old fashioned in their service level. Otherwise everyone would be taking Air Canada and Us carriers to other Canadian cities. and yet they still manage to provide decent connecting service.

The downtown location of YTZ certainly helps, as does the fact that being a dominant carrier there they can set it up with the lounge like waiting area and market themselves effective. That is the big thing they will loose if forced to use YYZ as their hub. They will no longer be able to provide that level of airport service, and they will not be able to effective compete marketing wise against AC having such a big presence.
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:34 pm

I can think of no North American carrier that was successful using "extra" service as a tool. And there have been many ... all First Class or upgraded on-board service ... and none are left. Why? Because that is not how a customer choses an airline.

They will chose the "better" airline if all other parameters are the same, namely price, schedule and frequent flyer benefits. (incidentally, those are the top three .... service wasn't even in the top ten!). Heck, even conventient airport parking was ahead of service on the list!

Porter has a unique advantage. Not just the proximity of YTZ, but the monopoly of YTZ. They have been able to block any one from competing! In my opinion, Deluce is a genious! Legally, he set up a monopoly at YTZ, then in doing so, set up an O&D market. O&D is always a higher yield. So for example, you have AC carrying lower yield "through" traffic YTS-YYZ to go beyond, where the local traffic would/should far prefer YTZ.

The only flies in the ointment, are as stated above. The only future is in growth, and by design, YTZ can not grow unless you let in competition. And when the Rail Link to YYZ opens a lot of the YTZ advantage is lost. Union Station to YYZ by Rail Link vice Union Station to YTZ by bus will be almost the same.
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RE: Porter Airlines Jets At Toronto YTZ Soon?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:51 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 42):
PD invested in the airport when no one else would.

If Air Canada had imagined that they could establish a monopoly on a public airport they would have too.

Yes, PD has invested some money but not nearly as much as casual observers may imagine. Porter has received or benefited from a lot of taxpayer money as well:

* $20 million from Federal government after Toronto City cancelled bridge to the island

* $30 million from Federal government's Business Development Bank financing the terminal

* $20 million to construct ferry terminals and build two ferries

* +300 million from Federal government's Export Development Bank to purchase aircraft

* $82.5 million for pedestrian tunnel to island

* 70 acres free rent on the airport

* 3 free parking lots on the city side

When you add the above benefits to the accumulated losses of $44,505,000 that was stated in Porter's prospectus for their Initial Public Offering and you can easily understand the desperation the Deluce has.


Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 43):
Then they bleed a slow, agonizing death.

I don't think that it is going to be so slow.

Quoting noise (Reply 44):
I don't know what the obsession is with having
Quoting longhauler (Reply 45):
If they started a focus hub where they did not have that monopoly, they would be just another airline. Time and time again, statistics have shown that people will not choose an airline because they have free beer and F/A's in 1950's uniforms.

  

Quoting longhauler (Reply 48):
And when the Rail Link to YTZ advantage is lost. Union Station to YTZ by bus will be almost the same.


During rush hour, rail to YYZ will be faster. And don't forget that you will be able to check in at Union Station...

Quote:
Snowbirds in downtown condos and offices will be able to walk the PATH in their shorts to Union Station, pull their bags along the Skywalk to the UP Express terminal, check in with their airline and board a train that leaves every 15 minutes. Twenty-five minutes later they will be inside the airport.


[Edited 2014-03-28 09:54:12]
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein