PHX787
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NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:14 pm

Here's an interesting article from AvHerald, including a video of a LH A346 severely crosswinding and landing hard:
http://avherald.com/h?article=471e70e9&opt=0

Guys, we see this all the time. Even my flight on Sunday landed with some extreme crosswinds; we essentially bounced twice upon landing.

The Runways at NRT are horribly placed, but the Chiba government is too slow to make any decisions about the remaining protest buildings around NRT for the construction of the 3rd runway.

What should be done? We can't have another FX 80 happen here.
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atcsundevil
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:24 pm

Well, it sounds like they need to just build a new runway. There isn't much else you can do if the current runway configuration is prone to heavy crosswinds. They should have planned better and worked faster to rectify the issue. Pretty simple, I think.
 
TC957
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:32 pm

I bet Fed Ex diverted all MD-11 flights that morning.
In my view, a cross runway could be made out of the taxiway that runs across from the mainteneance areas to the second runway and T2 area, which seems quite wide when I've been along it. But that wretched house in the middle of NRT is in the way, plus it would need to be extended to the north a little bit and I don't know what's in the way there.
However it needn't need to be more than about 2400 meters or so and maybe used for landings only when crosswinds are like those that have caused problems using the 16/34's.
Surely even the Japanese of all nations will know safety will come over the loss of a small bit of land.
 
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zeke
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:38 pm

In my experience, the crosswind itself is not that bad, it is the low level mechanical turbulence.

There is a raised bank with trees ontop on the western side of the 16R threshold, if they gave that area some attention, it would be beneficial to all concerned.

The 340-600 was pretty good even at 40+ kts of constant crosswind, what we see in that video is low level mechanical turbulence.
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ha763
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:23 pm

NRT always had plans for and already has partially built a crosswind runway. Taxiway C was to the crosswind runway and will be around 3200 meters long. However, until the protesting farmer passes away, the runway will not be able to be completed.
 
terminalc
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:04 am

I've been flying TPAC US-SE Asia for decades & am a very calm flyer. But descending into NRT & hearing an announcement that it will be "bumpy" stresses me to the max! I arrived at NRT a day after the Fedex MD-11 crash. It was surreal & depressing seeing that hulk on the side of the runway.
 
catiii
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:14 am

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):

What can be done? How about not overreacting with dramatic posts like these. You reference one crash that had nothing to do with crosswinds, and had everything to do with pilot error and certain aspects of the MD11s characteristics. That's ONE unrelated crash. How many safe arrivals in crosswinds happen at NRT? Thousands? Tens of thousands? It's a nonissue.
 
jfk777
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:50 am

Quoting ha763 (Reply 4):
NRT always had plans for and already has partially built a crosswind runway. Taxiway C was to the crosswind runway and will be around 3200 meters long. However, until the protesting farmer passes away, the runway will not be able to be completed.

Its funny how Japan, where everything is so efficient, built the main international airport next to farms that limit its expansion.
 
wingman
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:20 pm

They love their farmers, all very much tied to the memories of starvation post WWII. Being self-sufficient in core food commodities is a strategic national priority. In the case of Narita it seems there should be a fair and equitable solution for all concerned, but when the passions get stirred on hot button issues the first thing that gets tossed is logic.
 
DeltaB717
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:21 pm

Quoting ha763 (Reply 4):
NRT always had plans for and already has partially built a crosswind runway. Taxiway C was to the crosswind runway and will be around 3200 meters long. However, until the protesting farmer passes away, the runway will not be able to be completed.

How good's the foresight of NRT then, to have it partly built (which I noticed looking on google maps) ready to just finish it off when they're able! Good work.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:54 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
Its funny how Japan, where everything is so efficient, built the main international airport next to farms that limit its expansion.
Quoting wingman (Reply 8):

They love their farmers, all very much tied to the memories of starvation post WWII.

This is not remotely the issue. The issue is remnants of a fuedal land ownership system where some families can trace their property rights back over 8 centuries or more. It's amazing how some of the administrative aspects of 'modern' Japan are anything but.

Quoting zeke (Reply 3):
In my experience, the crosswind itself is not that bad, it is the low level mechanical turbulence.

It's not only the 16R threshold, but you're absolutely right. There are giant raised groves of bamboo forest all over the airport periphery, with cut-outs for roads and 9-10 km of rolling hills on the 34L side as well.

KIX and NGO have legitimate crosswind issues, but NRT is all about the mechanical turbulence.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 1):
Well, it sounds like they need to just build a new runway.

With traffic growth at a standstill? Nah.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
What should be done? We can't have another FX 80 happen here.

Nothing. There are hundreds of thousands of safe landings at NRT every year, with no identifiable trend toward the opposite.
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Carpethead
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:53 am

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
we essentially bounced twice upon landing.

Any number of factors unlucky or not such as unpredictable gust or the pilot just plain blew it.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
The Runways at NRT are horribly placed

I am sure they did a thorough study on the prevailing winds just like everywhere else in the world looking at building runways. However, there are certain number of days in the year, there are heavy cross winds.
Perhaps the more extreme weather we are having now that was not a factor 40/50 years ago.
 
TC957
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:57 am

I just won't hope it will take a serious landing accident again for something more to be done. Can you explain what " mechanical turbulence " is ? I'm surley not the only one not understanding this term.
 
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sassiciai
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:19 am

mechanical turbulence [mi′kan·ə·kəl ′tər·byə·ləns]
(meteorology)
Irregular air movement in the lower atmosphere resulting from obstructions, for example, tall buildings.
McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific & Technical Terms, 6E, Copyright © 2003 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc.
http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/mechanical+turbulence
 
speedbird128
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:16 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
a video of a LH A346

And on deplaning...

"Excuse me Captain, did we land or were we shot down?"

Although I bet after that touchdown the cockpit door remained closed...
A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
 
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777Jet
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting ha763 (Reply 4):
NRT always had plans for and already has partially built a crosswind runway. Taxiway C was to the crosswind runway and will be around 3200 meters long. However, until the protesting farmer passes away, the runway will not be able to be completed.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
Its funny how Japan, where everything is so efficient, built the main international airport next to farms that limit its expansion.
Quoting wingman (Reply 8):
They love their farmers, all very much tied to the memories of starvation post WWII.
Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 9):
How good's the foresight of NRT then, to have it partly built (which I noticed looking on google maps) ready to just finish it off when they're able! Good work.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
This is not remotely the issue. The issue is remnants of a fuedal land ownership system where some families can trace their property rights back over 8 centuries or more. It's amazing how some of the administrative aspects of 'modern' Japan are anything but.

I agree that this problem might only be solved if and when the airport can get a hold of that farming land. So, will the land become available after the farmer dies, or will another family member have a claim to the land that will allow it to be kept by the family thus meaning that the airport might never get access to that piece of land?

Instead of saying 'only in America' I'm prepared to say 'only at Narita' on this one  
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wingman
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:54 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
This is not remotely the issue. The issue is remnants of a fuedal land ownership system where some families can trace their property rights back over 8 centuries or more. It's amazing how some of the administrative aspects of 'modern' Japan are anything but.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I do recall that just after the war ended Japan engaged in a massive redistribution of farm land to small farmers. In the years since Japan has protected what's turned out to be a highly inefficient farm industry with massive tariffs on key food imports, rice being the primary food type. Japan has historically been obsessed with self sufficiency, especially in the period of industrialization and the post WWII rebuilding.

There are probably elements of truth in both of our posts regarding this issue. I guess the easiest way to find out in terms of the Narita issue is out is to find out how long the Narita guy's owned his plot.
 
ha763
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:42 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 15):
So, will the land become available after the farmer dies, or will another family member have a claim to the land that will allow it to be kept by the family thus meaning that the airport might never get access to that piece of land?

The government will use their eminent domain powers to get the land if the family does not willingly sell the land. With the children of these farms not being interested in taking over, the land has become part of the airport as the protesting farmers die.

For taxiway C, the majority of the land it is built on was part of protesting farmers' land and only built in the past 13 or so years. In this picture from the early 2000s, you can see that most of the land from the bottom left corner of the maintenance area at the top of the photo that was still farmland. Google Earth's oldest image is from 2003, but you can see the beginning of the construction of the taxiway by the maintenance area and by 2009, only 1 farmer is left. Even the land that the protesters' steel tower was on is now owned by the airport.
 
PHX787
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:10 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 2):
Surely even the Japanese of all nations will know safety will come over the loss of a small bit of land.

No, that's not really the case. Rationality is hard to come by here.
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catiii
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:40 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 18):

Wholeheartedly agree that rational thought is hard to come by, as evidenced by this thread topic alone. As noted repeatedly, hundreds of thousands of safe landings occur annually at Narita. There is no data to support your claims.
 
reltney
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:03 pm

About 98% missed the point and should observe the video. Watch the elevators. the PILOT pushed the nose down for a fraction of a second and that caused the nose to fall which started the high sink rate. True the stick came back to arrest the "goof" but at that speed and altitude, tooooooo late. PILOT issue. I land heavy planes (not ride) at Narita all the time. Xwinds like this are an issue but with proper piloting, no worries. It is the errosion of skills and lack of training that caused this. You dont dump the nose like that! I hate being a monday morning quarterback but this is obvious too the most casual observer even if you are not a pilot. As an instructor, i find this action in students, people who are not proficent, or are VERY poor pilots in the first place. Crosswinds are simple but you have to respect them and know what they will do to the plane. The accident report will stand by what I said about dumping the nose. Training will be an issue in the report.

Reltney
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gordarpi
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:11 pm

I would like to share with you the report of a passenger aboard LH714 on 7th April 2013, which can be read here -> http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/lufth...hree-go-arounds-diversion-hnd.html

Very similar weather situation the same flight found itself nearly year ago. I happened to be on the T1 observation deck that day - as I arrived to T2 from HEL aboard AY service, with a shaky landing on 16L earlier - and thus had the chance to observe the 3 attempts of the LH A346 with my own eyes.
I did not see the AZ flight mentioned on the report, but somebody told me on the deck that they did not even try NRT and requested to land at HND. Nevertheless the FX and 5X MD11s all managed to land on the 2nd try, though the KE 737 looked scary.

One of the videos showing I think the last attempt is still available at http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0408/TKY201304080003.html, but there might be an old thread about the effect this spring storm had on NRT ops a year ago.



A nice video shot that day at the Sakura no Yama park w/o the LH -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8j7GGB7F9c

[Edited 2014-04-04 09:14:33]

[Edited 2014-04-04 09:15:55]

[Edited 2014-04-04 09:42:34]
 
musapapaya
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting reltney (Reply 20):

About 98% missed the point and should observe the video. Watch the elevators. the PILOT pushed the nose down for a fraction of a second and that caused the nose to fall which started the high sink rate. True the stick came back to arrest the "goof" but at that speed and altitude, tooooooo late. PILOT issue. I land heavy planes (not ride) at Narita all the time. Xwinds like this are an issue but with proper piloting, no worries. It is the errosion of skills and lack of training that caused this. You dont dump the nose like that! I hate being a monday morning quarterback but this is obvious too the most casual observer even if you are not a pilot. As an instructor, i find this action in students, people who are not proficent, or are VERY poor pilots in the first place. Crosswinds are simple but you have to respect them and know what they will do to the plane. The accident report will stand by what I said about dumping the nose. Training will be an issue in the report.

So you are saying the pilots on the said flight had VERY poor pilot sills?!
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cbphoto
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:53 am

Quoting reltney (Reply 20):
About 98% missed the point and should observe the video. Watch the elevators. the PILOT pushed the nose down for a fraction of a second and that caused the nose to fall which started the high sink rate. True the stick came back to arrest the "goof" but at that speed and altitude, tooooooo late. PILOT issue.

Perhaps a go around should have been called, but in all likelihood they caught a gust and ballooned and tried to save the landing and in the process got the back end of the gust and the plane then dropped, with them not able to arrest the decent in time. While I agree maybe some of it was pilot error, conditions were not ideal and even the best of pilots have bad days!!
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reltney
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RE: NRT Crosswinds And Hard Landings--solutions?

Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:30 pm

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 22):

Yes in so simple terms. You NEVER push a nose over like that. This is not GUESS work. Look at the elevators . They almost go to full down.. True only for a second but at the energy stateof the plane, it is unrecoverable.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 23):

You said it absolutly correct. Yes we can Monday morning quarterback it but there are some things you never do. Someone wrote privately and brought up that could have been the program driving the controls like that. No! Not in direct law . Go around!!!!

Cheers
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