laxboeingman
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ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:28 am

Bloomberg Tweeted that 40 will be from Boeing and 30 will be from Airbus. Total: $17 billion.


async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8">>

I am thinking either 777 or 787 on the Boeing side and A330 or A350 on the Airbus side. Sorry if I am wrong.

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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:35 am

You could be right but then again it could be narrowbodies also.
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:47 am

Official Press Release
http://www.anahd.co.jp/en/pr/201403/20140327.html

Extract:
ANA HD has decided to purchase twenty Boing 777-9X, a large twin-aisle aircraft with 15% larger seating capacity, as a successor to its existing fleet of Boeing 777-300ERs. In addition, ANA HD will purchase six further Boeing 777-300ER aircraft to support the expansion of its international services until delivery of Boeing 777-9X.
 
laxboeingman
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:52 am

Here is the Reuters link: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...dings-boeing-idUST9N0MD00W20140327

I think the 777-9X order is good for the program. Where do they intend to go with these new long haul planes? Will there be a net increase in the amount or are they solely being used to replace old e/q?

Will the Airbuses be used to replace the 737s? I do not mean to turn this into an A vs. B thread, but ANA has been such a loyal Boeing customer, I was not expecting a mixed order between the two manufacturers.

[Edited 2014-03-26 22:55:34]
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KPDX
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:52 am

The airline is buying seven A320neo models and 23 A321neo planes from Airbus. From Boeing, ANA agreed to buy 20 777-9X, 14 787-9 and six 777-300ER, according to the statement.


http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...for-airbus-boeing-aircraft-today-1
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laxboeingman
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:56 am

Quoting jumboforever (Reply 2):
ANA HD will purchase six further Boeing 777-300ER aircraft

What is ANA HD and why do you think they feel the need to order planes that will be here sooner rather than just waiting until the -9Xs?
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KPDX
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:56 am

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 3):
Will the Airbuses be used to replace the 737s? I do not mean to turn this into an A vs. B thread, but ANA has been such a loyal Boeing customer, I was not expecting a mixed order between the two manufacturers.

It was probably as simple as being the better aircraft for their route system. Also, while ANA has operated A320s for a while now, gone are the days of airlines being very loyal to one OEM.  

[Edited 2014-03-26 23:26:47]
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laxboeingman
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:57 am

Bloomberg now Tweeted the cost is $16.6 billion.


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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:08 am

Great news for Boeing. Great news for the 779 and the 789.
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:13 am

I'd say that Airbus are disappointed with the lack of success with wide bodies.
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:24 am

It's no blow to Boeing: ANA is just replacing its 16 A320s with 30 planes split between A320s and A321s. The bulk of the order in terms of dollars just went to Boeing.

As it should be: America has Japan's six, at a time when that protection is becoming increasingly-important. Europe, not so much.

[Edited 2014-03-26 23:25:21]
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:28 am

I'm guessing by the number of NEOs that a further MAX order is not ruled out?
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behramjee
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:31 am

Very smart order being placed by ANA here for both the WB and NB types. So with this B779X order, the chances of the A380 ever being ordered by them have been wiped out !
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:41 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 10):
It's no blow to Boeing: ANA is just replacing its 16 A320s with 30 planes split between A320s and A321s.

Really? It wasn't that long ago that ANA said they were transitioning to an all-Boeing fleet. They have a larger 737NG fleet, so why not MAX?   

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 10):
As it should be: America has Japan's six, at a time when that protection is becoming increasingly-important. Europe, not so much.

Maybe someone should have told JAL?   
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KPDX
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:43 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 13):
Really? It wasn't that long ago that ANA said they were transitioning to an all-Boeing fleet. They have a larger 737NG fleet, so why not MAX?   

Who is to say they will not eventually order it?
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:03 am

From flightglobal:

Quote:
ANA will also order seven Airbus A320neo aircraft, and 23 A321neos to replace its existing fleet of 737-500s and baseline A320s.

If thats true, then there is potential for a MAX order as well to replace the NGs. However, a Followup NEO order isnt out of the question as well.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-70-777s-787s-and-a320neos-397485/
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kengo
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:23 am

Good decision by ANA, IMO, keeps both camps happy.

On other news, JAL's subsidiary, JTA, will order 12 737-800s to replace aging -400s.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing...socean-air-announce-070800029.html
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:34 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 4):
ANA agreed to buy 20 777-9X, 14 787-9 and six 777-300ER, according to the statement.

How many current generation 777 delivery slots does Boeing have left to sell?
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:56 am

Quoting sturmovik (Reply 11):
I'm guessing by the number of NEOs that a further MAX order is not ruled out?

Most NEOs are A321 and I think it is consensus that the A321NEO is superior to the 739MAX in most aspects. That does not rule out 738MAXs for future replacements.
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:07 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 10):
As it should be: America has Japan's six, at a time when that protection is becoming increasingly-important. Europe, not so much.

Or, instead of chest banging, ANA bought aircraft that suit their needs? A concept so often overlooked on these boards...  
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:19 am

The biggest surprise perhaps is the lack of the 787-10, many people including myself believed ANA would also buy the largest 787 variant.

I did not expect A321s, that's a major capacity increase for their A320 fleet.
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:25 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):
I did not expect A321s, that's a major capacity increase for their A320 fleet.

I think it makes sense, it reduces the gap between the 787 and the 738. Those A321 can increase capacity where they replace A320 or might replace 767-300 where those are too big.
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:29 am

Looks good for the next decade in Japan when the NH 779's will go head to head on the long-haul routes with JL's A35J's.
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:32 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 22):
Looks good for the next decade in Japan when the NH 779's will go head to head on the long-haul routes with JL's A35J's.

Interesting, isn't? Two competitors with two different products / strategies.
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:45 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 9):
I'd say that Airbus are disappointed with the lack of success with wide bodies.

Perhaps, though it would have been a mighty ask and amazing achievement for Airbus to have broken Boeing's grip on the long haul fleets of both JAL and ANA in one go.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):
I did not expect A321s, that's a major capacity increase for their A320 fleet.

Me neither. However, I would imagine Airbus are delighted with this order.

The A321neo continues on its quest to be the airframe of choice in its size. The fact this order has come from Japan and ANA speaks volumes of its superiority over the B739MAX for ANA's requirements.

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Aviaponcho
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:49 am

Hello guys

So in the future (2027 fiscal year) the range on ANA long haul will be

787-8 242 PAX (3 class typical only for comparison sake)
787-9 280 PAX
777-9 407 PAX

Coming from
787-8 242 PAX
787-9 280 PAX
777-200 301 PAX
777-300ER 365PAX
747-400 405PAX

Can we see a gap for something like A350-900 /-1000 later?
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:05 am

Good for Airbus, considering ANA seemed to be moving towards an all Boeing short&long haul fleet, it's a bit surprising the A321 got in here. Also, not surprising with the 777-9X order, it would have been very, very hard for Airbus to have pulled off both ANA and JAL and the 777X was most likely a good fit.
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:17 am

I would have been very surprised if Airbus had managed to swing ANA also into it's WB camp. As shown there may be a gap in the future for the A350-1000 but a lot of the 777 classics will be quite young and hence have a long life.

I am sure that ANA used the JAL defection and Boeings determination not to lose both to secure a very good price on these frames.
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:26 am

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 25):
So in the future (2027 fiscal year) the range on ANA long haul will be

787-8 242 PAX (3 class typical only for comparison sake)
787-9 280 PAX
777-9 407 PAX

Taking ANA cabin configuration into account, 787-8 will most likely carry around 220 passengers, -9 around 250 and 777-9 around 300. Note these numbers refer to their intercontinental, premium-heavy cabins with 9/10-abreast economy sections for 787 and 777, respectively.

[Edited 2014-03-27 02:27:39]
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:30 am

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 25):
So in the future (2027 fiscal year) the range on ANA long haul will be
Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 25):
Can we see a gap for something like A350-900 /-1000 later?

I don't think so, ANA has a different fleet strategy. The 787-9 will replace the 777-200ER while the 777-9 will replace the 777-300ER. It may seem like a big gap between those aircraft but the 777X will probably have a 4-class cabin, versus 2- and 3-class on the 787-9. Capacity wise, those jets will be close to each other.
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:33 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 6):

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 3):
Will the Airbuses be used to replace the 737s? I do not mean to turn this into an A vs. B thread, but ANA has been such a loyal Boeing customer, I was not expecting a mixed order between the two manufacturers.

It was probably as simple as being the better aircraft for their route system. Also, while ANA has operated A320s for a while now, gone are the days of airlines being very loyal to one OEM.

Rather the days of a whole country being very loyal to its victor.

I still recall a coffee mug I received as a gift in 1980's with the inscription "Made in Occupied Japan" on the bottom, it was only in 1952 that the "Occupied" bit was removed. Japan as a whole remained very *very* loyal to the US for quite a long while...


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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:55 am

Karel

ANA has 3 classes 777-200ER,but you are right, i checked, door to door length is higher in the 787-9 than in the 777-200ER, so indeed 787-9 can have a higher seat count if J class is direct access to aisle for each seat.
If not, the -200ER still might have some more seats.
But order covers 2016-2027 timeframe
So can we assume in 2027 787-8 / 787-9 and 777-9 only ?
There's room for either 787-10 / 777-8 or A350's
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:55 am

Here are the first computer renders:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/aenw8z.jpg

http://www.anahd.co.jp/en/pr/201403/20140327.html
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:24 am

reply 20
The biggest surprise perhaps is the lack of the 787-10, many people including myself believed ANA would also buy the largest 787 variant.

I don't know their route structure well (mix of route lengths). But I would tend to agree with you that there is lightly to be a place for such an aircraft in this new fleet going forwards. The gap between the 789 and the 779 is large and both have very long legs.
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:24 am

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 17):
How many current generation 777 delivery slots does Boeing have left to sell?

Quite a few, I'd say, given that the 777X won't EIS until ~2020.
777 Classic backlog as of March 18th is 304. At 8.3/month production rates, that equals 36.6 months, or just over three years' worth of production. That leaves a gap of around three years to fill before 777X EIS. At current production rates, that 3-year gap equals ~300 production slots to fill.
Unless of course they reduce production rates before the 777X come on-line. That's what I would in fact expect. Demand will dwindle somewhat in the lead-up to the 777X, partly due to the imminent 777X, partly because the A350 will be joining fleets in numbers by then.

Quoting StTim (Reply 27):
I would have been very surprised if Airbus had managed to swing ANA also into it's WB camp.

True - Boeing (and particularly its local sales team) had every incentive to retain ANA as a widebody customer, given JAL's "defection".
42
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:35 am

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-70-777s-787s-and-a320neos-397485/

"Engine selection for the 787s and A320s will be announced when the order is firmed."

However...

http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/r...y-story.aspx?cid=171&newsid=400301


"Rolls-Royce has been selected by All Nippon Airways (ANA) to provide Trent 1000 engines, worth $1.1bn, to power 25 Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft. The airline already has 55 of the aircraft in service or on order, all powered by the Trent 1000."

Eighty 787s with Trents.   
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:38 am

Quoting PM (Reply 35):
"Engine selection for the 787s and A320s will be announced when the order is firmed."

According their own press release, ANA also selected the PW1100G for the A320s.

http://www.anahd.co.jp/en/pr/201403/20140327.html

[Edited 2014-03-27 03:55:56]
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:46 pm

Quoting kengo (Reply 16):
Good decision by ANA, IMO, keeps both camps happy.

Indeed they do. But I am sure ANA are the happiest with their decision since they no doubt ordered the airplanes which they believe will work best for them.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 25):
So in the future (2027 fiscal year) the range on ANA long haul will be

Up till 2027 is a very long time from now. That is the surprising part of these orders to me. Still congrats to all parties are due.   .
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:53 pm

According to the press release, here are the expected year of delivery and the number of orders
http://www.anahd.co.jp/en/pr/201403/20140327.html
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:05 pm

Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
StTim
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:07 pm

Wow that is some uplift in price between the 777-300ER and the 777-9X
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:09 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 18):
Most NEOs are A321 and I think it is consensus that the A321NEO is superior to the 739MAX in most aspects. That does not rule out 738MAXs for future replacements.

The consensus of WHOM Exactly?? You cannot be serious!
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:12 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 41):
The consensus of WHOM Exactly?? You cannot be serious!

Care to educate us as to how the B739MAX outperforms and is superior to the A321neo?

I'm genuinely intrigued and interested to hear from your perspective.

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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:13 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 39):
Pic or it didn't happen:

Even though she has a more massive fuselage then the A340-600, from this angle the B777-9 (which is even longer than the A340-600) looks "too long" for the best looking version of the program. The B777-8 will look better since imho it has the better proportions.
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:20 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 22):
Looks good for the next decade in Japan when the NH 779's will go head to head on the long-haul routes with JL's A35J's.

Looking from the outside in, to me that shows NH feels they can grow long-haul traffic whereas JL feels they won't.

NH ordering more 777-300ERs also makes me wonder if they feel they can keep their domestic traffic strong and we'll see them replace their 514-seat 777-300s with 514-seat 777-300ERs when it comes time to retire the former.



Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):
The biggest surprise perhaps is the lack of the 787-10, many people including myself believed ANA would also buy the largest 787 variant.



They may still yet do so, but the 787-9 can be a direct replacement for the 777-200 as both offer the same cabin length. And as their new 787-8 markets grow in traffic, they can easily transition into the 787-9.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):
I did not expect A321s, that's a major capacity increase for their A320 fleet.

I didn't, as well, but it does make sense to me.

The A321-200neo gives them a new capacity tier between their A320-200 / 737-800 and 767-300 / 787-8 fleets. It can work to expand domestic and regional services that are outgrowing the smaller plane, as well as allow for down-sizing domestic and regional services that no longer justify a 767-300. It should also allow them to grow capacity on their two(?) 737-700ER services. And the A321-200neo is all-around a better plane than the 737-9 in that market segment.

By significantly decreasing their A320-200 fleet (from 18 classics to 7 neos), IMO that improves the chances for a quite large future 737-8 order to replace the 737-700 and 737-800 fleet.



Quoting seahawk (Reply 18):
I think it is consensus that the A321NEO is superior to the 739MAX in most aspects.
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 41):
The consensus of WHOM Exactly??

Just compare the order books for the two models. And before you claim that the earlier ATO and EIS favor the A320neo, Boeing has sold 75% as many 737-8 as Airbus has the A320-200neo compared to 33% as many 737-9 as A321-200neo.

And looking within each family, the A321-200neo makes up 21% of the A320neo family order book, whereas the 737-9 makes up only 10% of the MAX order book. So even Boeing's MAX customers are not very bullish on the 737-9.

[Edited 2014-03-27 10:23:55]
 
StTim
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:20 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 41):

The consensus of WHOM Exactly?? You cannot be serious!

You only need to look at the relevant sales of the two variants to see which one is the much preferred option. That is from many airline fleet planning departments so I think they are pretty serious.
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:54 pm

The 737-9 Max is the last gasp of an airframe originally designed in the 60's. The proof is in the sales figures as to what airlines prefer in that category. Unfortunately, Boeing was forced to rush out the Max in response the NEO offering and the sales figures reflect what the airlines world-wide think.

It would be a good idea for Boeing to go back to the drawing boards on a new narrow body line once the 777X is firmed up design-wise. A large narrow body a/c with 757-like performance characteristics would be great given the air travel growth in Asia and slot restrictions at an increasing number of airports around the world.
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:55 pm

What a great order. The A321neo makes a lot of sense as its bound to be an excellent aircraft and should give Boeing further indication that they need to work on their offering in this space. 779 has been projected but it is exciting to see it come to fruition. For me, and maybe others disagree, this puts to rest the 9-abreast vs 10-abreast argument. After CX, QR, LH and now ANA I feel very confident that 10-abreast is expected and will be broadly acceptable to operators.

80 787s is a monster fleet. Even with the well publicized issues, ANA has topped up a couple of times. They seem to have confidence in it. At this point they will be the largest operator.

This seems to be the first of Boeing's strategy to pair 77W orders with 77X orders.

I agree with Karel that it is interesting that a 787-10 order hasn't come along although they will have enough options.

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 17):
How many current generation 777 delivery slots does Boeing have left to sell?

I am sure they would take 400-500 orders if airlines were offering. I am sure they would like to keep producing the current 777 even while the 777x is rolling off the lines. This includes the 77F which doesn't have a replacement on the horizon.

In reality I think they will need a production rate decrease in 2016/2017 time frame.

Quoting blueshamu330s (Reply 24):
The A321neo continues on its quest to be the airframe of choice in its size

It is making a very convincing argument.

Quoting anfromme (Reply 34):
Demand will dwindle somewhat in the lead-up to the 777X, partly due to the imminent 777X, partly because the A350 will be joining fleets in numbers by then.

It will decline for sure but I think there will be overlap much like the A330 still selling while the 787 has been in service for years.

tortugamon
 
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seabosdca
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 17):
How many current generation 777 delivery slots does Boeing have left to sell?

I understand they still have about 1.5 to 2 years of production to sell, probably 200 or so slots, assuming they keep the rate steady. It will be an uphill lift for the last few.

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 25):
Can we see a gap for something like A350-900 /-1000 later?

I think the more natural candidate to fill the gap remains the 787-10. I wouldn't be surprised, either, to see some of the -9 orders converted to -10 at a later date.
 
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RE: ANA To Buy 70 New Aircraft

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:14 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 41):
The consensus of WHOM Exactly?? You cannot be serious!

That will be the market, I'd guess...

A321 - 573 firm so far.
737-9MAX - 184 firm so far

Seriously ....

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 46):
The 737-9 Max is the last gasp of an airframe originally designed in the 60's.

I get the impression that the 739MAX is that "step" too far for what has been a great airframe.

The 7378MAX in contrast looks like it's doing just fine - I'm sure that it's extra 2m of cabin gives it a competitive edge to offset any other shortcomings (if it has any)

Rgds