Leej
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Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:43 am

Make of it what you will
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-26756468
I guess we have gotten to the times where people forget the 'risks' involved in flying. Whatever next? Forget the plunge, we'll just die of hypoxia......
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:02 am

"The plane was just north of Lugano, Switzerland, when oxygen masks were released and the crew started the emergency descent of about four miles in five minutes.

...

It levelled out at 10,000 feet before being diverted to Frankfurt, from where passengers were flown to the UK on a different flight. "

Flying at 10'000 ft north of Lugano, and further to Frankfort on that level? I would pay Ryanair even more for this gorgeous scenery flight... but these pax...  


David

[Edited 2014-03-27 03:03:28]
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
StTim
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:12 am

I really hope they lose. As far as I see the flight crew followed internationally accepted procedures for a loss of cabin pressure. Yes it must have been unnerving but they are all safe.

It would seem that we in the UK are heading down the same litigious route that there is in the US.
 
gabo787
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:34 am

This is absolutely ridiculous, I also hope they loose and have to pay the cost of the proceedings as well.
Next time take the bus.
 
european742
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:44 am

This is just stupid! I guess they would have preferred if they kept the plane up and everyone died!

I remember another Ryanair aircraft suffering a loss of cabin pressure, passengers comments after were:

When the masks came down there was no announcement on what to do
Some of our masks did not work

1 - Yes there was, it's called the safety demo, if you had listened you would have known what to do
2 - did you pull down on the mask before placing it over your nose and mouth? probably not because again you didn't pay any attention.

And now this, an emergency happened and rather than just being grateful for being alive and applauding the flight deck crew for getting them down safely, all they can see is £££ in their eyes.
 
PhilBy
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:40 pm

Generally, in the UK people can only sue for actual loss. If they suffered no financial loss they have no case. If they are claiming negligence or lack of safety they can make a case to the Health and Safety Executive or perhaps CAA (does this still exist as part of EASA) who can give the airline a fine (not a penny of which goes to the PAX).
In the UK we don't normally have punitive damages, just actual damages plus fines.
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting european742 (Reply 4):
1 - Yes there was, it's called the safety demo, if you had listened you would have known what to do
2 - did you pull down on the mask before placing it over your nose and mouth? probably not because again you didn't pay any attention.

Thank you!!!

Seriously I hope this court case is a joke....
2016: BHX GLA KIR LCY LGW MUC VIE BA EI FR LH OS A320 A321 ATR 42 ATR 72 B738 E190 E195
 
Mir
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:52 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 1):
"The plane was just north of Lugano, Switzerland, when oxygen masks were released and the crew started the emergency descent of about four miles in five minutes.

...

It levelled out at 10,000 feet before being diverted to Frankfurt, from where passengers were flown to the UK on a different flight. "

So they had a pressurization issue over southern Switzerland and flew on all the way to Frankfurt? Passing up Zurich, Stuttgart, and Karlsruhe? That's a bit puzzling.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
eicvd
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):

Not really, with a base at Frankfurt Hahn they would of had an aircraft available & probably have a mechanic on hand too.
COYBIB
 
rutankrd
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:11 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
So they had a pressurization issue over southern Switzerland and flew on all the way to Frankfurt? Passing up Zurich, Stuttgart, and Karlsruhe? That's a bit puzzling.

Was it Frankfurt or Hahn through?

Hahn is a Ryanair base
 
art
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:18 pm

I also hope they lose. The crew did what was required after depressurisation.

From the BBC webpage:

Quote:
Patricia Bertin, a PHD student at Loughborough University, in Leicestershire, was travelling with her husband and two children.

The Brazilian national said the effects of the ordeal were "devastating" and she now finds it difficult to fly.

"It's been two years now since the accident and it just changed my life completely," Mrs Bertin said.

Unfortunate consequences indeed. However if a problem arose during the flight and was countered correctly, the carrier is not liable IMO.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 6):
Quoting european742 (Reply 4):
1 - Yes there was, it's called the safety demo, if you had listened you would have known what to do
2 - did you pull down on the mask before placing it over your nose and mouth? probably not because again you didn't pay any attention.

Thank you!!!

Seriously I hope this court case is a joke....

I think it would be quite difficult for the cabin crew to make an announcement while wearing their own masks.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 9):
Was it Frankfurt or Hahn through?

Hahn is a Ryanair base

It went to HHN.
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:24 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
I think it would be quite difficult for the cabin crew to make an announcement while wearing their own masks.

It is difficult to hear but has to be done. In our recurrent training the pilot simulates warning us of an emergency descent through the P.A. while wearing his quick don 02. All we can do is shout to the pax to put their mask on, sit down & strap in. When we get to a safe altitude no smoking P.A's etc are done normally.
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Mir
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:42 pm

Quoting eicvd (Reply 8):
Not really, with a base at Frankfurt Hahn they would of had an aircraft available & probably have a mechanic on hand too.

They could have found a mechanic at any of the airports I mentioned (especially ZRH with SR Technic there). And they could have flown in another aircraft to pick up the passengers as well. Who's to say that the source of the pressurization issue wasn't something structural that you wouldn't want to keep flying with?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
art
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
Who's to say that the source of the pressurization issue wasn't something structural that you wouldn't want to keep flying with?

How often has structural failure been the cause of depressurisation (I'm not talking about sudden, catastrophic failures)?
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting art (Reply 10):
From the BBC webpage:

Quote:
The Brazilian national said the effects of the ordeal were "devastating" and she now finds it difficult to fly.

"It's been two years now since the accident and it just changed my life completely," Mrs Bertin said.

Unfortunate consequences indeed. However if a problem arose during the flight and was countered correctly, the carrier is not liable IMO.

Would have "changed her life" a lot more if the crew had not initiated the emergency descent. At least she is still here 2 years later able to complain. I would like clarity on "difficult to fly"..so is she is now a nervous pax? Like so many others......
Throw this case out of court.
 
USAirALB
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:29 pm

I thought that modern aircraft today were delivered with an system that is supposed to call out announcements automatically should the masks drop, no?
E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/77W/319/320/321/333/343
 
Stabilator
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:38 pm

Lucky for the pax, Ryanair didn't charge THEM for the o2 masks or the descent  ! Some people feel so entitled these days. Lets hope they lose.
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:45 pm

"Mrs Bertin said: "[The legal proceeding] is not going to repair what we have been through, but people need to be responsible for their actions."

Maybe Mrs Bertin would have preferred a calm death from hypoxia then, at least after that there would be no fear of flying to suffer anymore.

Absolutely ridiculous.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
Mir
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:07 am

Quoting art (Reply 14):
How often has structural failure been the cause of depressurisation (I'm not talking about sudden, catastrophic failures)?

It happened not too long ago with a 737 on a Southwest flight. That one was easily visible, and probably worse than this, but one doesn't really know in the moment. And while it's not a "get the plane on the ground as soon as possible" scenario, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable overflying an airport clearly capable of handling the flight such as ZRH just to get to a base unless weather was a factor - the WN flight in question diverted to Yuma, which isn't even served by the airline.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
bueb0g
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:40 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
I'm not sure I'd be comfortable overflying an airport clearly capable of handling the flight such as ZRH just to get to a base unless weather was a factor - the WN flight in question diverted to Yuma, which isn't even served by the airline.

Well by the time they were at 10k they were well north of the Alps, and flying to Frankfurt probably only took another 15 minutes or so than commencing an approach to Zurich would have taken. Once down at 10k with no further indication of problems, I can't exactly say it was a bad decision to go to somewhere with better technical support for the airline; the decision was most likely made with consultation from the airline anyway. Obviously different crews are going to make different calls but I don't think there was anything inherently wrong about flying to Frankfurt.
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Boeing744
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:41 am

There is a lot of the story missing from this article, I think.

First and foremost, we do not know whether the legal challenge actually results from the Ryanair pilot undertaking an emergency descent (which would be ridiculous), or some other issue that made that descent necessary (which would make somewhat more sense). If Ryanair was somehow at fault for WHY the cabin depressurised in the first place (e.g. pilot error, mechanical, etc.), then I can see how this group of passengers may have a case for any (alleged) injuries arising from the rapid descent caused by Ryanair's negligence. The sincerity of their injuries, however, is definitely a legitimate question even if Ryanair was at fault for this event.

The line that makes me think there's more to this is "Ryanair has admitted liability." However, this is from the passengers' lawyer, so I'll take it with a grain of salt.
 
Mir
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:34 am

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 20):
the decision was most likely made with consultation from the airline anyway.

That does concern me, yes.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MaverickTTT
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:45 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
That does concern me, yes.


As much as it pains me to defend Ryanair...I have no problem with this if, indeed, they were only fifteen minutes further from FRA than other fields. "Nearest Suitable" does not always mean "Land At Closest Airport". As long as the situation is under control and it is determined that safety will not be compromised by the additional fifteen minutes, there's nothing wrong with taking passenger convenience into consideration when deciding on a suitable airport for diversion.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:25 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
That does concern me, yes.

It's sad that I think those concerns are valid when it comes to Ryanair, but it's difficult to assess where they could/should have landed without knowing the direction of the winds.

If ZRH was on a frequently-used Northern approach and the plane made a straight-line descent from Lugano to 10,000, they would probably miss the approach and need two lengthy 180 turns to land at ZRH.

"Nearest Suitable" in that case would have been STR, SXB, SCN or LUX before HHN, but the difference between these airports is counted in handful of minutes.
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
PhilBy
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:56 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
Who's to say that the source of the pressurization issue wasn't something structural that you wouldn't want to keep flying with?

In that case there's no real difference between flying 10mins or 30. This isn't Hollywood where another panel falls off every 30 seconds.
 
B777LRF
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:29 am

I was operating a B757 freighter service from BRU to BGY. Somewhere over Southern Germany we got a pressurization warning, and initiated an emergency descent to FL100. It's obvious you can't cross the Alps at that altitude, so we had a quick exchange of opinions on where to go.

Please note, the QRH does not state 'land immediately' or 'land at nearest suitable' for a pressurization problem.

With that in mind, we quickly agreed the most sensible option would be to head for LEJ (home base) for a change of aircraft. Think it took us about an hour or so go get there, and in the process we passed numerous airfields where we could - technically speaking - have landed. But there was no reason to do so, it was not illegal to continue, and in the end we got the freight to destination much faster than had we landed at 'nearest suitable'.

That would have caused a very, very lengthy delay as a new crew had to be drummed up, a new aircraft spun up and positioned to wherever we would be. Please also note, that unlike passenger flights, you can't just pull up a set of stairs to the aircraft, call for a bus and get your payload off the aircraft. Bit more to it when it's a main-deck freighter!
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eastern747
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:43 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but when we had printed or hand written tickets, there was a page or two of legal mumbo jumbo making that ticket a contract between the airline and passenger. Part of that was a limited liability for death or injury. I can't remember the exact amounts but well below $10,000, and domestic and international were different amounts. Since we don't have "real" tickets any more, is there still a contract now. BTW a law firm (sleezball) here in Chicago have already filed law suits against Malaysian for $$$$ for survivors. WTF?????
 
Boeing744
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:32 pm

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 27):
Part of that was a limited liability for death or injury. I can't remember the exact amounts but well below $10,000, and domestic and international were different amounts. Since we don't have "real" tickets any more, is there still a contract now.

Any time money is exchanged for goods or services, you are in a contractual situation. Nothing ever needs to be written down. For example, putting money in a vending machine is a contract. Grocery store: contract. Most people make multiple contracts a day and don't realize it.

That said, an air carrier is going to have written terms somewhere that govern the contract of carriage. These are also going to be limited/governed in some ways by local laws and international aviation agreements (e.g. Montreal Convention).

Some jurisdictions don't let you waive liability for bodily injury cause by negligence through contract (not sure about limiting it to $10,000, but there are probably restrictions on that too in different jurisdictions).
 
JimJupiter
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RE: Ryanair Pax To Sue For Emergency Descent!

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:01 pm

Quoting european742 (Reply 4):
rather than just being grateful for being alive and applauding the flight deck crew for getting them down safely, all they can see is £££ in their eyes.

Seems like passengers and airline "deserve each other" well. 
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