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SA7700
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:01 pm

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Due to length part 46 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 47:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 43 (by SA7700 Mar 22 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44 (by SA7700 Mar 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**********************************************************************************************

**** ADDITIONAL NEWS REPORTS ****

MH370: search for missing Malaysia Airlines plane extended to southern Indian Ocean

Najib's full press statement on MH370

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370: What we know so far

MISSING MH370: Timeline

Flight MH370: Police focus on pilots as search for airliner goes on - live updates

Flight MH370: New timeline casts doubt on pilot deception theory

MISSING MH370: ACARS cannot be disabled

MISSING MH370: Search for missing aircraft above politics: Hishamuddin


***********************************************************************************************


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SA7700
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nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:16 pm

Quote:
The Boeing 777 the Boeing 777 is equipped with an inertial guidance system (IGS), in addition to its gyros and GPSs. Presumably, the IGU plays a role in the FBW flight controls, including when in manual steering mode. The IGU could tell if a yaw was induced by a wind gust, and could thus compensate for that, at least in principle.

The INS *is* the gyros you speak of. I don't know what role the INS plays in terms of influencing the aircraft's behaviour when being flown fully manually.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
65mustang
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:20 pm

A nice radar map:

Edit: I am not sure this is a radar map. The title says "STRATEGIC AIR DEFENCE ENVIRONMNENT". So what it is, I don't know.



[Edited 2014-03-27 11:13:17]
 
David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:27 pm

From Part 46:

Quote:
Malaysian Government holding sealed evidence?

It's not unusual for some evidence to be withheld while an investigation is in progress. As has been pointed out many times, the job of the investigators is to determine probable cause with a view to improving air safety. Their job is not to provide fuel for speculation by the public. Similarly, since there is the possibility of criminal activity, it's not surprising that some evidence would be withheld during an investigation.

FBW: Some people seem to assume that all Fly-by-wire aircraft are the same. FBW simply means that control inputs are transmitted to the actuators electrically rather than mechanically. What else is inserted between the controls and the actuators, e.g. "flight laws" and envelope protection, is up to each manufacturer. There are quite a lot of differences between how the FBW flight laws are implemented on an A320 versus a 777.

[Edited 2014-03-27 10:33:25]
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:34 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 3):
There are quite a lot of differences between how the FBW flight laws are implemented on an A320 versus a 777.

Indeed. All it means is that there is a computer interpreting the inputs to create the corresponding outputs.

There are some FBW aircraft, experimental at least, that can repurpose control surfaces to maintain authority/stability/etc when other control surfaces are not responding (after being shot off, for example). I saw an example of an RC aircraft that was able to maintain a stable circular flight pattern with 3/4 of one wing blown clean off (on purpose).

It is a good thing. This kind of technology makes flying safer.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
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PW100
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:35 pm

Quoting mandala499,reply=294 previous thread:
I don't think we need to go back to what it was like before 9/11, but I think we need to look at solutions on how to make the fortress cockpit not a suicide-weapon heaven.

At least I'm not proposing floating blackboxes, or streaming blackboxes, or installing systems that can't be switched off, or cargo jettison system, or parachutes for passengers...

OK. Now I see where you're coming from. Glad to see that we're on the same page then. Sorry for misreading.

Rgds,
PW100
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65mustang
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:37 pm

Does the SatCom on 9M-MRO run off DC power? I found several antenna for the 777 that do run off DC power but could not find specific info on 9M-MRO. I am wondering if maybe the systems that were "shut down" run of AC and the SatCom remained on because it was DC. While searching for the answer I found this site with lots of info.

http://www.smartcockpit.com/plane/BOEING/B777.html

Interestingly enough when I clicked on the "B777 Communications" it downloaded a very thorough pdf document that had a picture of a Malaysia air 777 on the cover.

http://www.smartcockpit.com/aircraft...essources/B777-Communications.html

^^^^^lots of info and pictures of the comms^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 2):
A nice radar map:

That's interesting, since both Inmarsat flight paths were well within the Cocos Island radar zone....
 
David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 4):
All it means is that there is a computer interpreting the inputs to create the corresponding outputs.

In practice, yes, but there doesn't need to be a computer involved. The addition of computers allows added functionality.
 
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teme82
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 7):
That's interesting, since both Inmarsat flight paths were well within the Cocos Island radar zone....

Now does the RAAF have some radar data or not. Or did they have some issues with the radar's....
Flying high and low
 
B777fan
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:52 pm

added after previous thread was locked.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 272):
I may be missing an important point... but who builds a plane that does not revert back into a stable wings level attitude? And who certifies such an aircraft?

Actually me.

Slight diversion before back to this thread.

******

The airplane I built for myself is mostly neutrally stable - meaning - if you induce a pitch oscillation - longitudinal stability - it will not dampen out over time. It will not get worse - negative stability - but it will not get better by itself from positive stability. My aircraft requires that it be flown all the time or it will respond to all the uneven aerodynamic effects of even slight turbulence. Very soon it will not be straight and level and will not work its way back to that like a 172 should.

Why? Maneuverability. A 'perfectly' stable aircraft would not be maneuverable at all. Compromises are reached in all axises for stability. My aircraft has just slightly positive lateral stability from some dihedral in the wing. It has mostly positive directional stability.

The 172 is like a family sedan and my aircraft has a more sports car feel. It is not demanding to fly but you or an autopilot must be flying it all the time.

******

I think we are all wondering what would happen to the 777 after fuel exhaustion because we know that before that, the autopilot can keep the plane flying fine, whatever mode it is in.

Nobody seems to have a good handle on exactly what would happen depending on what mode it was in at fuel exhaustion. If it was holding altitude, when would the autopilot say, over to you Bob, I give up. Would the flight envelope protection make for a graceful descent?

I haven't seen much definitive here as to what would happen other than at some point the autopilot will give up. The envelope protection will only go so far in the 777 because it is presuming someone is actually flying the plane.
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:52 pm

Quote:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 272):
I may be missing an important point... but who builds a plane that does not revert back into a stable wings level attitude? And who certifies such an aircraft?

Does the unstable bank angle of the 777 serve any purpose, actually?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_dynamic_modes

The geometric and aerodynamic parameters driving these dynamic modes can have opposing effects on these modes (in particular roll and spiral). So if you design the aircraft to be fully stable in one mode, it will probably be unstable in another. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to design a machine which will be fully stable in all circumstances.
The trick to solve this is what made the Wright bros enter posterity : they understood that instead of looking at the stability of the machine only, the should study the stability of the complete system made of the machine & pilot (human, and eventually auto). It's no coincidence they made bicycles.
With this in mind, it is possible to design an unstable machine, as long as the instability has slow enough dynamics for the pilot to correct it. In effect, the pilot is actively stabilizing the aircraft system to compensae for the lack of "passive" stabilization.

Always keep in mind that pilot and machine are two inseparable components of the wider "aircraft system" ; take one out of the picture and nothing will work properly


Quoting WarrenPlatts:


As a human being, you are naturally thinking in a geocentric referential - vertical & horizontal as related to the Earth's surface. An airplane behaves in relation not to the Earth, but to the air mass around it, which is itself moving and has varying temperatures and pressures. So the 777 is indeed "steady as a rock", but within the air surrounding it, not in relation to Earth. An Airbus FBW on the other hand, will compensate and be roughly stable compared to the Earth referential.
It's the same as a ship kept steady on a same patch of water, but which may move in relation to fixed references on shors becuase of the current (supposing no wind)


YES!!
That's exactly what I'm trying to get across! If the 777 is pointed straight ahead, wings level, no hands on the controls, it becomes it's own inertial reference framework. The autotrim or whatever you want to call it will compensate for any instabilities, and thus follow a "ballistic" trajectory--not in the sense it that it's describing a parabola, but in the sense that the Earth will rotate underneath it; thus, because of this Coriolis effect, it will gradually bear to the left defining a gradual curve that will look A LOT like the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path....
 
bond007
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:53 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 4):
Quoting David L (Reply 3):
There are quite a lot of differences between how the FBW flight laws are implemented on an A320 versus a 777.

Indeed. All it means is that there is a computer interpreting the inputs to create the corresponding outputs.

... and needing a computer is also unnecessary, although is always the case of course. In theory a simple FBW aircraft could just have basic electronics to convert the position of a control column to a position of an elevator/aileron etc.

Any envelope protection, or computer processing of the signals, is a separate function than just the FBW system.

Also, the opposite is true to a certain extent. You do not necessarily need FBW in order to have envelope protection. The stick shaker is a example.

Jimbo
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David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:59 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 12):
You do not necessarily need FBW in order to have envelope protection. The stick shaker is a example.

A stick-pusher, perhaps? A stick-shaker is more like a "Hoi... sort this out!".

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 11):
If the 777 is pointed straight ahead, wings level, no hands on the controls, it becomes it's own inertial reference framework. The autotrim or whatever you want to call it will compensate for any instabilities

But I think 7BOEING7 is saying that it's not the case on the 777. I was under the impression that the 777's autotrim is specifically a pitch mode.

[Edited 2014-03-27 11:04:51]
 
panampaul
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:19 pm

While anet was apparently down (?), I saw this and don't think it's been covered yet.

Every day we get a similar report, but hopefully one will pan out. The amount of debris being spotted on satellite images is increasing, I assume this is a good sign but who knows.

Thai Satellite Shows New Debris Field from Malaysia Flight 370 - Weather Conditions Once Again Cut Search Short

Quote:
As the search for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 continued Thursday, officials reported that new satellite images showed more objects in the southern Indian Ocean, but weather conditions forced the curtailment of the search.
Thailand’s space technology agency reported that images from one of its satellites showed 300 objects in the area.  The debris was located 124 miles (200 kilometers) from where a French satellite had spotted numerous objects.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:34 pm

I talked to a Pilot fiend of mine yesterday and we draw some conclusions out of these "semi facts" and the Sanity Checks posts.

We spoke on how on AF 447 they knew what happened until they saw the input on the sidestick while going on stall and the CMR confusion that lead to the crash... until then all we had were conjetures...

In this case we are in a similar situation and all the possible scenarios have big holes on them because we haven located FOR SURE the wreckage of the Aircraft. He told me intul we have positive identification of parts, we might as week send somebody to Diego Island just to be sure, heck even the Kergelens, Maldives, Cocos and such. We were talking about radar coverage, and told me, something fishy is going on since its almost imposible to fathom how a place with so many radar (military and civilian) coverage lost a BIG airliner with no trace or at least partial data.

As me he think the Captain did not do it, way too complicated, way to uncertain and to top it off as he told me : We all have troubles, if a nasty divorce would make somebody do this, we would have a crash each week...

One question because I don't know at all about this: do the mangosteens produce explosive gases?

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
65mustang
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:34 pm

There is a Tomnod image that has real possibilities of being of the wreckage.

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/mh370_indian_ocean/map/835894

Looks like a cockpit with windows and you can make out the Malaysia Air stripes under the window. There is a twitter post comparing the two and they are similar.

https://twitter.com/FoxieNews/status/449217851157520385/photo/1

[Edited 2014-03-27 11:36:07]
 
apfpilot
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:37 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 12):
... and needing a computer is also unnecessary, although is always the case of course. In theory a simple FBW aircraft could just have basic electronics to convert the position of a control column to a position of an elevator/aileron etc.

You pretty much just described Concordes FBW system
Opinions are my own and do not reflect an endorsement or position of my employer.
 
gulfstream650
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:45 pm

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 16):

That's stupid. She has been desperate for attention since this all started. Pay any attention to the scale?


It is a wave.
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7BOEING7
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:49 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 13):
But I think 7BOEING7 is saying that it's not the case on the 777. I was under the impression that the 777's autotrim is specifically a pitch mode

  

No matter how well you have the 777 trimmed up (aileron trim) in cruise, when you take your hands off it will maintain altitude but eventually gently roll left or right, the 787 with a different FBW system will just stay there pointed straight ahead like I'm getting the idea AB does.

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 11):
YES!! That's exactly what I'm trying to get across! If the 777 is pointed straight ahead, wings level, no hands on the controls, it becomes it's own inertial reference framework. The autotrim or whatever you want to call it will compensate for any instabilities, and thus follow a "ballistic" trajectory--not in the sense it that it's describing a parabola, but in the sense that the Earth will rotate underneath it; thus, because of this Coriolis effect, it will gradually bear to the left defining a gradual curve that will look A LOT like the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path....

No, doesn't work that way in real life on a 777.

Quoting B777fan (Reply 10):
I haven't seen much definitive here as to what would happen other than at some point the autopilot will give up. The envelope protection will only go so far in the 777 because it is presuming someone is actually flying the plane.

With the engines and APU inoperable due to lack of fuel, the battery and then the RAT are the only things providing electric power. At this point the airplane will go from primary to secondary flight control mode and you will lose your envelope protection (overbank, overspeed and stall). With nobody in control it will not be a gentle ditching.
 
Gatorman96
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:52 pm

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 16):
There is a Tomnod image that has real possibilities of being of the wreckage.

Says who? Foxie News? Geez...

Those are whitecaps. If you search around the rest of the imagery provided, you will find similar looking "objects".

While I appreciate Tomnods efforts here, it makes a mockery out of the imagery analysis business. I was an IA for 6 years and you wouldn't believe the amount of training we went through, most of it on a reoccurring basis. Should people perform surgery since they were avid followers of the show ER? Or attempt to operate an aircraft because they've racked up thousands of hours in MS Flightsim? Leave the SAR effort to the professionals...

[Edited 2014-03-27 11:53:56]
Cha brro
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:55 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 7):
That's interesting, since both Inmarsat flight paths were well within the Cocos Island radar zone....

Well, imagine you are a military radar operator in peacetime, at dark o'clock, in an area, which might be strategically important, but usually has little or no air traffic. Imagine you have to do your shift staring for hours at a dark radar display.

You might just have gone for a coffee or to use the bathroom. And I doubt that the operators, not expecting a surprise attack from Indonesia, were very alert.

Jan
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7BOEING7
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 15):
We were talking about radar coverage, and told me, something fishy is going on since its almost imposible to fathom how a place with so many radar (military and civilian) coverage lost a BIG airliner with no trace or at least partial data.

The circles on the map above are not radar coverage -- if this was planned the airplane probably flew 200+ miles (out of radar range) west of the Cocos Island radar which probably wasn't even manned at that hour and similarly just skirted the Australian super radar.
 
flyfisher1976
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:02 pm

Hi, I searched through all the replies after it had been mentioned, but discussion regarding the (suspected) fire bottle found in the Maldives has suddenly ceased. Has this been discounted?
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:05 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 19):
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 19):
Quoting David L (Reply 13):But I think 7BOEING7 is saying that it's not the case on the 777. I was under the impression that the 777's autotrim is specifically a pitch mode


No matter how well you have the 777 trimmed up (aileron trim) in cruise, when you take your hands off it will maintain altitude but eventually gently roll left or right, the 787 with a different FBW system will just stay there pointed straight ahead like I'm getting the idea AB does.

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 11):YES!! That's exactly what I'm trying to get across! If the 777 is pointed straight ahead, wings level, no hands on the controls, it becomes it's own inertial reference framework. The autotrim or whatever you want to call it will compensate for any instabilities, and thus follow a "ballistic" trajectory--not in the sense it that it's describing a parabola, but in the sense that the Earth will rotate underneath it; thus, because of this Coriolis effect, it will gradually bear to the left defining a gradual curve that will look A LOT like the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path....

No, doesn't work that way in real life on a 777.

But Captain, are you absolutely sure? Last time you said you had never actually tried letting go of the controls when in manual flight mode. (Maybe next time you fly, you can give it a try!   ) Bill Palmer who's been writing for CNN is an (albeit AB) pilot seems to think the 777 could fly a more or less straight line with the autopilot off. There is an inertial guidance system isn't there? Couldn't that keep the plane flying straight ahead in principle, even if not in practice?
 
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:10 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Thread starter):
There is an inertial guidance system isn't there? Couldn't that keep the plane flying straight ahead in principle, even if not in practice?

You misunderstand the purpose of an INS. I suggest you look it up.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
B777fan
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:11 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 19):
With the engines and APU inoperable due to lack of fuel, the battery and then the RAT are the only things providing electric power. At this point the airplane will go from primary to secondary flight control mode and you will lose your envelope protection (overbank, overspeed and stall). With nobody in control it will not be a gentle ditching.

Thanks, If you posted that before I must have missed it. That is how I presumed it operated. Your posts have been very informative.
 
SimonDanger
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:13 pm

From previous thread: (B777fan):

Quote:
Nobody seems to have a good handle on exactly what would happen depending on what mode it was in at fuel exhaustion. If it was holding altitude, when would the autopilot say, over to you Bob, I give up. Would the flight envelope protection make for a graceful descent?

It would be interesting to know what the shut-down triage sequence would be in the event that the flight flew until fuel exhaustion. If the APU is not on during flight normally (?), and electrical and hydraulic power is derived from the engines, once the engines shut down, I assume there would be some limited battery power left. (Big assumption since I have no idea of the power configuration of this thing). Is there someone who has ever experienced a run-to-dead electrical experiment - without human intervention - that knows how the systems prioritize limited power? My guess is that it's not in a controlled fashion, and that once all systems experience voltage drops they move into a safety shut down or just quit, likely in order of high-powered systems going first, and then a cascade of lesser powered systems from there. Or they could all go simultaneously. The last half-ping via the satcom link has been speculated to be an ACARS attempt based upon an engine-out condition, so what power was it likely using when it failed? (It would be odd - in addition to everything else on this flight - if the ram air turbine had been deployed, but then that adds another layer of what-ifs too.) Thanks.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:13 pm

I have yet to see an answer to this...

Is there anything entered into the FMC that would put the plane on a direct course for the south pole, that is simple like 9999 or something?

I'm really having a hard time reconciling the facts with the plane being in the southern ocean... no theory really makes sense for me with someone in control? So I'm thinking zombiejet with the FMC flying a heading until it gets on course for 90S0E, but i don't see any EASY way someone could of entered that... so that's why im wondering if it would accept something like all 9s for that location? OR is there a mode that when the entered flightplan ends the aircraft switches to heading mode automatically (HDG 180)?

Plotting the flightpath it would seem to be that sometime after passing north of Banda Aceh the plane needs to make a turn due south to end up where the search areas are...

I've probably been playing with mapping too much... but if you plot the last "known" course, it heads approximately to N5E90, and then plot to S90E0...

http://goo.gl/tHLHWy

Assuming 4000-4500nm range, the dots where the range and path meet are coordiates of the various wreckage reports.

granted it's full of guesses...
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
B777fan
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:20 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 24):
There is an inertial guidance system isn't there? Couldn't that keep the plane flying straight ahead in principle, even if not in practice?

In principle, your GPS could keep your car on the road if you let go of the wheel - does it?

With autopilot off, the INS is just going to give you your location - just like that is all the GPS in your car does. The INS doesn't fly the plane, the autopilot or the pilot do - with assistance from the INS or any other navigation source the pilot chooses to use.
 
David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 26):
Quoting SA7700 (Thread starter):
There is an inertial guidance system isn't there? Couldn't that keep the plane flying straight ahead in principle, even if not in practice?

You misunderstand the purpose of an INS. I suggest you look it up.
Quoting B777fan (Reply 30):
The INS doesn't fly the plane, the autopilot or the pilot do - with assistance from the INS or any other navigation source the pilot chooses to use.

Agreed. The INS provides information about location, flightpath, ground speed, etc. The autopilot can use that information to fly in a particular direction if the crew wants it to, e.g. by programming a destination (or, as Zeke mentioned, selecting Track instead of Heading) and engaging the autopilot. With the autopilot off, all the INS/GPS will do is indicate how accurately you're navigating towards that point.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:47 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 24):
But Captain, are you absolutely sure? Last time you said you had never actually tried letting go of the controls when in manual flight mode. (Maybe next time you fly, you can give it a try! )

What I meant was I had never let it roll to overbank protection on its own, I've let go and watched it roll several times (not to overbank) which one customer required prior to accepting the airplane.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 28):
It would be interesting to know what the shut-down triage sequence would be in the event that the flight flew until fuel exhaustion. If the APU is not on during flight normally (?), and electrical and hydraulic power is derived from the engines, once the engines shut down, I assume there would be some limited battery power left.

On the 777 when all the engine driven generators (4) are shutdown the battery takes over, the RAT drops to take over from the battery and the APU automatically starts (unless you're out of fuel).
 
spacecadet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting TheRedBAron (Reply 15):
We all have troubles, if a nasty divorce would make somebody do this, we would have a crash each week...

No, because as I pointed out earlier, this relies on an assumption that the world is ordered and humans react predictably to any given situation. They don't. Some guys shrug off a divorce and just keep going on about their daily lives; it's more of an inconvenience than anything. Some see it as an opportunity to go have that affair with their secretary that they've been wanting to have. Some mope around the house for months or even years, not showering or shaving the entire time. Still others get violent.

We program computers to do certain things and to react a certain way to certain inputs, and they do that, every single time. Humans do not work that way. That may be uncomfortable to realize, but you must realize it.

It could very well be that there's some other explanation nobody's thought of yet, and we'll all be surprised when we finally find the recorders. But you cannot rule out pilot suicide just because other people haven't committed this act in a similar situation before. (Though this would hardly be the first pilot suicide.)

Lastly, a lot of people keep bringing up AF447 and saying things like "no one" predicted the cause of that accident, I guess to imply that any theory you read here for MH370 must be wrong - this being some sort of roundabout proof that it couldn't be pilot suicide.

But I read through those early AF447 threads as well and lots of people predicted it mostly as it really happened. Nobody got every single detail right, of course, but it's wrong to say it was a complete surprise to everyone. It was only a surprise to people who believed the cause to be something else! But predictions of a stall mixed with some sort of pilot error were rampant through those threads, along with many other theories of course. I'm quite confident we've already hit on whatever the cause of MH370 was too - there are a limited number of possible theories that fit the facts. It's very likely to be one of the things we (and more importantly, the investigators) have been talking about.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
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N328KF
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:06 pm

It appears that the Malaysia 370 mess has resulted in a new product for INMARSAT:

http://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/201...eyes-global-aero-distress-service/
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
poolkeeper
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:09 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 31):

The INS boxes I have played with contains accelerometers and fiber gyros (or similar). These can give you a position for a while before the drift start to make an impact.
It can give output to help to keep the aircraft in fixed angle, but for altitude, speed and heading you will need more sensors (compass, altimeter, GPS etc) and then use filters with feedback to the INS.

In military you combine an INS with terrain radar but for civil aircraft you really want to have a GPS as reference (if no GPS then radio beacon)
 
David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:18 pm

Quoting poolkeeper (Reply 35):

I think you've missed my point: I.e. INS provides information about the aircraft to the FM(G)S and does not "fly" the aircraft.

[Edited 2014-03-27 13:21:25]
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:20 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 31):
Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 26):
There is an inertial guidance system isn't there? Couldn't that keep the plane flying straight ahead in principle, even if not in practice?

Quoting B777fan (Reply 30):The INS doesn't fly the plane, the autopilot or the pilot do - with assistance from the INS or any other navigation source the pilot chooses to use.

Agreed. The INS provides information about location, flightpath, ground speed, etc. The autopilot can use that information to fly in a particular direction if the crew wants it to, e.g. by programming a destination (or, as Zeke mentioned, selecting Track instead of Heading) and engaging the autopilot. With the autopilot off, all the INS/GPS will do is indicate how accurately you're navigating towards that point.


Well, 7BOEING7 said that the 787 and AB (possibly) will stay pointed straight ahead if you let go of the wheel, so it's possible in principle. Presumably the inertial guidance system has something to do with the ability of a 787 to stay pointed straight ahead. However, due to a peculiarity in the 777 FBW design, when one lets go of the wheel, a 777 will roll toward one side or the other until the bank controller comes into play, and then the a/c will do nothing but fly tight 30 degree bank circles until the a/c runs out of fuel, at which point it will augur over and nosedive into the drink from 30,000 feet. IOW, autopilot-off-zombie theories are not consistent with the Inmarsat data, and are thus falsified.

[Edited 2014-03-27 13:22:20]
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:28 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 32):
Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 24):But Captain, are you absolutely sure? Last time you said you had never actually tried letting go of the controls when in manual flight mode. (Maybe next time you fly, you can give it a try! )

What I meant was I had never let it roll to overbank protection on its own, I've let go and watched it roll several times (not to overbank) which one customer required prior to accepting the airplane.

Well, then that settles it....

That means that the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path can be excluded (as indeed all autopilot off zombie theories) because it describes an inertial flight path of an aircraft that can fly straight ahead in manual mode with no one at the controls. A 787 could do it, but not a 777 evidently.

Thank you for your input 7BOEING7!!  

[Edited 2014-03-27 13:38:17]
 
poolkeeper
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:35 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 36):

That is fine I just commented about:
"The INS provides information about location, flightpath, ground speed, etc".
Those are normally processed outside the INS. The INS just provide angle and acceleration data.
 
David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 37):
However, due to a peculiarity in the 777 FBW design, when one lets go of the wheel, a 777 will roll toward one side or the other

It's not a peculiarity of the 777, it's a peculiarity of aircraft that don't have a system that actively keeps the aircraft on a flightpath with no (auto)pilot input, i.e. most airliners until recently.
 
65mustang
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 18):
Pay any attention to the scale?

Yes I did! Using the scale for the picture it looks about 25ft wide. What I see in this picture is what resembles a windshield, painted stripes, and a right angle corner where the door would be. The scale of where the opening for the windshield might be does seem off.

This if the first Tomnod post I have put on here and I have seen a lot of waves and a lot of ships in other tomnod images. I am not trying to make a mockery out of the image analysis business. I am trying to provide information for thoughtful and constructive discussion. Yes, it could be a wave. It could be flotsam. I don't know what it is. I did not post this based on her interpretation, I posted it based on my thoughts and my interpretation. As many pictures as Digital globe is taking, if there is debris, maybe eventually they will capture an image of it. This image is dated 3/25 so it would be more recent. It seems it doesn't matter what is seen from satellite pictures or from even planes if the SAR doesn't get more ships in the area.
 
rolfen
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:43 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 34):

It appears that the Malaysia 370 mess has resulted in a new product for INMARSAT:

http://www.runwaygirlnetwork.com/201...vice/

Never a bad time to make new business... I have even seen the CEO of Inmarsat (if my memory serves me well) pushing for changes and adoption of new technology, which he says was already there and ready to be rolled out - he even gave a price figure! That and praising his team for their technological feat for the doppler trick... all that during an interview which was supposed to be about MH370.

Heck I even wondered if they did not cause the whole thing to create a new market. I know it sounds terrible and far fetched, but it is worth noting that this is the only motive I can come up with at this time for flight 370, if it was the result of a deliberate action... not that I pretend to know what happened, nor am I trying to spread conspiracy theories, just sharing my thoughts.

From what we know, It seems like MH370 took every possible action to disappear without a trace ever since it's transpoder went off. Definitely not a normal situation.

[Edited 2014-03-27 13:54:56]
rolf
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:51 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 40):
Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 37):However, due to a peculiarity in the 777 FBW design, when one lets go of the wheel, a 777 will roll toward one side or the other

It's not a peculiarity of the 777, it's a peculiarity of aircraft that don't have a system that actively keeps the aircraft on a flightpath with no (auto)pilot input, i.e. most airliners until recently.


OK fine. But how about a little credit for helping to prove that the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path almost certainly cannot be correct despite the fact that it is consistent with the Inmarsat pings!   That's been my main concern all along--not peculiarities of aircraft design.

The 400 knot path looked to me like an inertial flight path under the influence of the Coriolis effect. I constructed a numerical simulation that showed that the 400 knot flight path is indeed consistent with an autopilot off, zombie aircraft flying inertially--but only if the aircraft could stay pointed straight ahead. Since 777s cannot stay pointed straight ahead (even though 787s can), then we know that MH370 did not follow the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path.
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 12):
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 4):Quoting David L (Reply 3):There are quite a lot of differences between how the FBW flight laws are implemented on an A320 versus a 777.Indeed. All it means is that there is a computer interpreting the inputs to create the corresponding outputs. ... and needing a computer is also unnecessary,

I believe we're talking digital FBW here not analog as in:

Quoting apfpilot (Reply 17):
You pretty much just described Concordes FBW system

I don't think a digital FBW is worth much minus a (digital) computer.

Quoting David L (Reply 40):
It's not a peculiarity of the 777, it's a peculiarity of aircraft that don't have a system that actively keeps the aircraft on a flightpath with no (auto)pilot input, i.e. most airliners until recently.

It's related to whether the FBW is designed to hold the last attitude, I think. I believe all Airbi since the A320 do this. The Space Shuttle had a digital FBW system that used this "rate control attitude hold" logic.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:56 pm

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 41):
Yes I did! Using the scale for the picture it looks about 25ft wide. What I see in this picture is what resembles a windshield, painted stripes, and a right angle corner where the door would be. The scale of where the opening for the windshield might be does seem off.

Could you post a copy of the picture inline here? I'd be interested in looking at it, but I couldn't follow the link you provided.
 
theaviator380
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:57 pm

Goodness me, have a look. Thank god it wasn't a plane.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ED-PLANE-ultimate-false-alarm.html

Sorry I know it's not MH370 related as such, couldn't restrain myself posting it here.

[Edited 2014-03-27 13:58:41]
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:20 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 43):
OK fine. But how about a little credit for helping to prove that the 400 knot Inmarsat flight path almost certainly cannot be correct despite the fact that it is consistent with the Inmarsat pings!

Wow, maybe you should share your findings with the investigators!

If you didn't note the sarcasm, then interpret this very literally: You have not proven anything and you're talking nonsense and you should stop.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
David L
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:30 pm

Quoting poolkeeper (Reply 39):

Well, strictly speaking, shouldn't we be talking about IRS rather than INS?   
 
65mustang
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:41 pm

Some items from the link I have in Reply 6 above.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 19):
With the engines and APU inoperable due to lack of fuel, the battery and then the RAT are the only things providing electric power.

The standby electrical system can supply AC and DC power to selected flight
instruments, communications and navigation systems, and the flight control
system, if there are primary electrical power system failures.
The standby electrical system consists of:
• the main battery
• the standby inverter
• the RAT generator and its associated generator control unit
• the C1 and C2 TRUs.

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 28):
It would be interesting to know what the shut-down triage sequence would be in the event that the flight flew until fuel exhaustion.

The ELMS provides load management and protection to ensure power is available
to critical and essential equipment.
If the electrical loads exceed the power available (airplane or external), ELMS
automatically sheds AC loads by priority until the loads are within the capacity of
the airplane or ground power generators. The load shedding is galleys first, then
utility busses. Utility busses are followed by individual equipment items powered
by the main AC busses. When an additional power source becomes available or
the loads decrease, ELMS restores power to shed systems (in the reverse order).
The message LOAD SHED displays on the electrical synoptic when load shed
conditions exist.

If both IDGs and the APU generator are inoperative, a backup generator powers
essential airplane equipment. To reduce electrical loading on the backup
generator, the following systems are inoperative:
• TCAS
• SATCOM
• Right HF radio
[HF Datalink installed]
• Right HF radio and associated datalink
• Center tank override/jettison pumps (center tank fuel is unusable and
cannot be jettisoned)
[777-200LR]
• Center tank override/jettison pumps (center tank and auxiliary fuel is
unusable and cannot be jettisoned)
• Position and other exterior lights (except nose gear landing lights)
• All non-essential cabin equipment (galleys, entertainment systems, etc.)
• Passenger cabin lighting (except night, galley and cross-aisle lights)
• Cabin temperature control (remains operative, but in degraded mode

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 28):
If the APU is not on during flight normally (?), and electrical and hydraulic power is derived from the engines, once the engines shut down, I assume there would be some limited battery power left.

The APU generator is electrically identical to the IDG generators. The APU
generator can power either or both main busses, and may be used in flight as a
replacement to an IDG source.

In flight, when both transfer busses are unpowered, the APU starts automatically,
regardless of APU selector position.

The right IDG normally powers the right main bus and the left IDG normally
powers the left main bus. The APU normally powers both main busses when they
are not powered by any other source.

The source order for powering left and right main busses in flight is the:
• respective IDG
• APU generator
• opposite IDG.

I hope this helps with the above discussion.
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