sailas
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AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:46 am

http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/business...-finnair-ready-to-consolidate.html

“Companies such as Finnair have become a dying breed of air transport. It is clear that consolidations will continue in Europe,” Heinemann stated, encouraging shareholders to consider the alternative ownership options available to Finnair.

Frankly, i have been waiting for this for a long time, AY's days have been long counted, and as AY is so badly managed i think change is good.

I think on the negative side HEL really needs alot of money injected into it, and AY needs more airplanes. I find it ridiculous to how many routes AY has compared to how many planes they have. They have none to spare, if a technical problem came.

So potential buyers? EY? QR? TK? CX? SU?

This is the end
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Airlines been on: AY, LX, SR, OS, SK, KF, EZY, FR, BA, LH, AF, TG, DC, FC, TK, KL, BT, CX, QR
 
HELFAN
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:12 am

I think AY would complement IAG network quite well. OW co-operation has already set the frame work
 
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RWA380
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:42 am

Knowing very little of the financials of either carrier, I'd say from a purely aesthetic position SK & AY seem a right fit.
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sailas
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:54 am

I wouldn't think AY and SK would be a logical merger, and one i would definitely be against, they would surely just eat up the planes and forget HEL. Or they could place their own wide bodies ftom Stockholm to HEL 
Quoting HELFAN (Reply 1):

It might but as we know IAG wouldn't acquire AY. ME i say.
Airlines been on: AY, LX, SR, OS, SK, KF, EZY, FR, BA, LH, AF, TG, DC, FC, TK, KL, BT, CX, QR
 
MEA-707
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:06 am

Quoting sailas (Thread starter):
Frankly, i have been waiting for this for a long time, AY's days have been long counted, and as AY is so badly managed i think change is good.

Why is AY badly managed? I think they are doing pretty well with their Asia focussed hub. With the high wages and costs in Finland they are just about as good as they can be in the current environment with LCCs etc. Just see how much worse their neighbors LOT and SAS are doing.
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OzarkD9S
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:08 am

Quoting HELFAN (Reply 1):


I think AY would complement IAG network quite well. OW co-operation has already set the frame work

I hope that is the outcome, maybe with some financial stake by Qatar in the mix.
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777klm
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:21 am

Quoting sailas (Thread starter):
EY? QR? TK? CX? SU?

In the EU, foreign ownership is, as a general rule limited to 49%. Foreign means non-EU in this case, with a number of exceptions including Norway, Switzerland and Iceland. This rule limits the possibilities for airlines like the ME3, TK, CX and SU to acquire a controlling interest. A minor interest is still possible though like the stake EY has in AB.

In addition I think the ME3 airlines would not be a right fit as they (the ME3) would loose traffic at their ME hubs to the HEL hub, which is geographically better located for travellers between most of Asia and Europe.

What about Norwegian? It will give them great access to both various Asian markets as well as the Finnish market.

  
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smbukas
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:26 am

Quoting sailas (Thread starter):
Frankly, i have been waiting for this for a long time, AY's days have been long counted, and as AY is so badly managed i think change is good.

I do not agree with that. I think, Finnair is one of the best managed airlines in Europe in last few years. This is a miracle they were able to survive with small home market and even though, they are making profits in a such competitive market. LCCs are eating everything intra-Europe, MEB3 are occupating all Europe to Asia market, TK putting enormous investments and Big wolfs from Europe (IAG, LH, AF/KLM) are trying to rule the long-hauls from Europe. And in such environment, Finnair were able to create great hub. Main reason is perfect management.
 
sailas
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:28 am

Im sure something will work out. But to give you an idea of AY fleet management a captain once said if AY had one plane, with one full cabin crew, AY would still employ 200 people in the office to run everything else.

What AY really needs is a big investment. More planes and a bigger better airport.
Airlines been on: AY, LX, SR, OS, SK, KF, EZY, FR, BA, LH, AF, TG, DC, FC, TK, KL, BT, CX, QR
 
smbukas
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:38 am

Quoting sailas (Reply 8):
What AY really needs is a big investment. More planes and a bigger better airport.

I do not think fast growth would be good idea for AY. There are now successful hub in Europe without good O-D demand. All successful hubs has a very strong local demand - LHR, CDG, AMS, MUC, FRA, MAD, CPH, IST, etc. DOH and AUH are only few exceptions in different environment then Europe.
Finland is small market and Helsinki is not big city. I suggest AY should keep 40-50% Finland traffic with other being connecting. Otherwise they could suffer a lot of low yields. They should grow with local demand and play in niche markets further.
 
sailas
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:44 am

Quoting smbukas (Reply 9):

Actually most passengers from AYs longhaul flights are connecting. Local demand to make an airport varies. DXB relies on connecting people.
Airlines been on: AY, LX, SR, OS, SK, KF, EZY, FR, BA, LH, AF, TG, DC, FC, TK, KL, BT, CX, QR
 
airDFW
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:19 pm

I think JL or IAG is a natural fit for AY. First for Europe bound and second for secondary cities in Asia.
 
sailas
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:04 pm

I was thinking about JL, but i don't think they would be buying at the moment?
Airlines been on: AY, LX, SR, OS, SK, KF, EZY, FR, BA, LH, AF, TG, DC, FC, TK, KL, BT, CX, QR
 
finnishway
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:32 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if LH would be interested in Finnair. They have money and experience from buying competing airlines. EY wouldn't be surprise either, since they seem to invest in Europe very much.
 
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GCT64
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:42 pm

EY et al may find owning stakes in EU airlines is about to get more difficult:
EU Investigates (non-EU) Shareholdings In Airlines (by GCT64 Mar 28 2014 in Civil Aviation)
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LAXintl
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:03 pm

It was in the news this week at Finnair would look to further staff cuts - approx 680 in total - 140 in administrative and support staff along with about 540 cabin crew.

Finnair still must reduce cost and is looking to do things like increase outsourcing of flight crew services on both its long- and short-haul

Finnair threatens to cut 680 jobs
http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/business...air-threatens-to-cut-680-jobs.html

Finnair Plans to Take Alternative Measures to Reach Cost Savings
http://www.businesswire.com/news/hom...es-Reach-Cost-Savings#.UzWdGvldWgU

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civetfive
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 13):

IMO, the value of AY to LH would be the connecting flows US-Baltic/Russia, not the Asia traffic. And its not obvious to me that it would be worth the trouble. LH doesn't need the Asian network, as it already has its own extensive one and close cooperation with NH.

I think the more likely outcome, from both a synergies and regulatory level, would be for IAG to take a stake in AY and better coordinate Asian connections. IAG doesn't have the strength as *A in Europe-Asia and it better allows IAG to offer the schedules and service it needs.
 
jfk777
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:28 pm

Britis Airways and IAG, this is up Willie Walsh's alley. Imagine if Finair expanded to the USA the way it flies to Asia.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:32 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
Britis Airways and IAG, this is up Willie Walsh's alley. Imagine if Finair expanded to the USA the way it flies to Asia.

Oh, the money they would lose! There just aren't that many Americans with a burning desire to go to Helsinki. HEL has little efficient-distance advantage as a connecting point for Americans outside of little-trafficed north-eastern Europe airports (and MOW). Connections through LHR and FRA are fine and build upon heavy destination traffic.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:11 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):


Britis Airways and IAG, this is up Willie Walsh's alley. Imagine if Finair expanded to the USA the way it flies to Asia.

AY would enhance the Asian network for IAG. It wouldn't even enhance the Euro network much as HEL is lousy hub for intra-Europe. As far as North America...ummmmm, just what they have now.
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LAXintl
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:18 pm

AY at one time had a much larger US and Canada network having tried many cities (off the top of my head LAX, SFO, SEA, YMX, MIA, BOS), but such service have come and gone. I don't see much change in opportunities to the Americas outside of seasonal leisure tourist routes for AY.
HEL can work for Europe-Asia traffic, but it does not do much from the Americas except to Russia, Baltics.
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SASMD82
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:03 pm

Quoting sailas (Reply 3):
I wouldn't think AY and SK would be a logical merge

Finland is no Scandinavia as some people sometimes forget. So time for either OnWorld or Syteam to interfere. A merger between AY and SK is not logical but BA or KL/AF may have some interest in further share with them.

Interesting. I thought that their strategy worked. On the other hand, their fleet is small....
 
AADFWFlyer
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:19 pm

Perfect time for Willie Walsh- now the head of OneWorld Alliance - to get involved, and bring Finnair into the fold of the IAG
structure, as Finnair already a part of OneWorld .
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:24 pm

I should think it would be a good fit with LH, SK or KL. The days of independent national carriers like AY are fading fast. Maybe a consolidation of AY with OS and LO into one of the larger carriers. The costs of maintaining a totally independent airline have to be astronomical.
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LHRFlyer
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:41 pm

The answer has to be IAG.

AY is already part of the joint transatlantic business and the BA/JL joint business between Europe and Japan. IAG is also not prohibited by ownership restrictions.
 
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HELyes
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting sailas (Thread starter):
and AY needs more airplanes

They are getting 11 (+8) A350-900s starting next year, being the first European for A350. Interesting to see how that develops now.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 21):
Quoting sailas (Reply 3):
I wouldn't think AY and SK would be a logical merge
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 21):
Finland is no Scandinavia as some people sometimes forget.

Yes Denmark, Norway, Sweden make Scandinavia, add Finland and Iceland and you get the Nordic countries. Outside the Nordic area Scandinavia is often used as a synonym for the Nordic countries.

SK + AY wouldn't make sense, they both have their own problems and been looking for a stronger partner.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 24):
The answer has to be IAG.

That would make sense.
 
sailas
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:41 pm

Quoting HELyes (Reply 25):

Yes, but at the same time they will get rid of some of their A340s at the begining i think the 2 air france once which are nearly 20 years old?

I think SK + AY would just create more problems.

What would be the plus sides of another airline having a big stake in Finnair?
Airlines been on: AY, LX, SR, OS, SK, KF, EZY, FR, BA, LH, AF, TG, DC, FC, TK, KL, BT, CX, QR
 
global2
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:00 pm

About eight or ten years ago I flew AY a couple times from Europe to BOM and BKK. I found their on board service (bus. class) to be excellent, and back then it was on MD11's which were incredibly spacious, with those large windows and nearly vertical walls (unlike Airbus). The problem was that transferring in HEL was more like HELL! If not for the fact that I was in business class, and got some priority through security, I'm sure I would have missed those connections. A colleague of mine suffered the same experience. Moreover, living in NYC, I would have happily used AY when flying directly between here and BOM, but their scheduling just wouldn't work. I'm an AAdvantage flier so using oneworld carriers is always my preference. I always wondered why they never recognized this opportunity and tweaked their scheduling just a bit to make this possible.
 
copenhagenboy
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:13 pm

Well, I think AY and SK would make perfect sense, but I doubt it will be the outcome.

Keep HEL as the big/main hub to Asia, and from HEL to North America via CPH, ARN or OSL.

A win win situation?
 
HELFAN
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:05 pm

Quoting Global2 (Reply 27):
About eight or ten years ago I flew AY a couple times from Europe to BOM and BKK. I found their on board service (bus. class) to be excellent, and back then it was on MD11's which were incredibly spacious, with those large windows and nearly vertical walls (unlike Airbus).

Ten years ago AY did have excellent service also in economy. Unfortunately it has been deteriorating ever since. Don't know about the business class though.
Anyway with an economy product that scarcely even matches the standards of LCC's such as AB or DY today they are having hard time justifying their higher fares. Very very difficult
 
copenhagenboy
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting HELFAN (Reply 29):
Anyway with an economy product that scarcely even matches the standards of LCC's such as AB or DY today they are having hard time justifying their higher fares. Very very difficult

Well, as it is often the case it depends on where you are flying from.
AY is often the cheapest choise to BKK and other Asian destinations, if you are flying from CPH.
 
sailas
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:24 pm

If IAG or any other airline took up on this offer what would happen? Increased cost efficiency? More planes?
Airlines been on: AY, LX, SR, OS, SK, KF, EZY, FR, BA, LH, AF, TG, DC, FC, TK, KL, BT, CX, QR
 
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HELyes
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:35 pm

Quoting Global2 (Reply 27):
I always wondered why they never recognized this opportunity and tweaked their scheduling just a bit to make this possible.

India hasn't been easy for AY, first they axed BOM and have also cut flights to DEL, low yields apparently. The JFK-HEL-India routings look good on the Great Circle map but probably it's hard to make the timetables work both for Europe and N America, with their resources.

Quoting copenhagenboy (Reply 30):
AY is often the cheapest choise to BKK and other Asian destinations, if you are flying from CPH.

Yes it looks AY often are among the least expensive choices between Europe and Asia both in Y and C, on many markets. They are increasing capacity to Thailand next winter, so probably more good deals coming. Their timetable shows scheduled service also to Phuket and Krabi in winter 2014/15, sounds like they are preparing for DY.
 
harim
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RE: AY Is Ready To Consolidate.

Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:24 am

For long haul, it is a challenge for European carriers to compete with EY, QR, Turkish, Emirates etc - i.e. counties where having an international airline is a source of national pride and forgiving shareholder (direct or indirect governmental).

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