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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:41 pm

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

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Due to length part 53 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 54:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44 (by SA7700 Mar 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47 (by SA7700 Mar 27 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 29 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 31 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50 (by wilco737 Apr 2 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 51 (by wilco737 Apr 6 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53 (by SA7700 Apr 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)


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iberiadc852
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:36 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 249 Of PART 53)::
Quoting Lizzie (Reply 42 Of PART 53):
This is absolutely terrifying, especially given that it predates MH370:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk1jIKQvMx8

I'm no expert in programming, but this presenter appears to have a cogent argument about how an airliner could be hacked. I'm surprised this theory hasn't been getting more attention.

Regarding that possibility, and trying to fit Occam's Razor, forgive me if this seems to take things too lightly, but.......Doesn't the way MH370 leaves its initial route and then follows the southern route towards nowhere land, seem very much like if someone takes a RADIO-CONTROL Aircraft to a route that gets it "out of reach" and then follows its course till it runs out of fuel?

To fit that theory, would also require to explain the lack of any communication by crew/passengers who could be aware of the situation.
But as I understand from the "hacking aircraft theory", communications from pilots could also be remotely disabled. Can anyone confirm?

And on the other hand, could anyone confirm if from the moment the aircraft changes its course, is it possible that mobile phones would not be serviceable for making calls from then on? (Because of height, etc.)
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SEPilot
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:43 pm

I do not believe that anyone could remotely hack into the aircraft's systems, disable all communications (including the transponders) and take over control with the pilots unable to reverse it. And from what I have read the disabling of the engine reporting had to be done in a hatch under the passenger compartment floor. I believe that whatever happened was done by people on board.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sat Apr 12, 2014 10:43 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 309):
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 306):
We're talking about different maps. Someone posted a current upper level winds map regarding the claim that there would be a strong northwesterly upper level wind in the area. I believe you said "Thanks for that!" or something.

Yes, but it was for that day--not March 8th. Still looking for one from that day.

See this one, which I've already posted :

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j261/Pihero/00HR250MBHGTWINDgfsfaxanl0020140308.gif

Time : 00 Z and date :2014.03.08 at the bottom.
See that for the first part of then flight's final journey, the winds are in fact Easterlies blowing at 15 to 20 kt.
That will put your initial plot 75 to 80 kt in error, in other words your trajectory will be, for the first 4 nhours of the southern leg some 300 to 320 nautical miles too far east.
It's only above 20°S that the wind will start picking up speed, thanks to the presence of the Southern polar jetstream.
I found this table that Tim Vasquez did :

LAT / WIND
10S : 090° / 20
15S : 180 / 05
20S : 290 / 30
25S : 290 / 40
30S : 280 / 40
40S : 210 / 45
45S : 230 / 100

The table , alongside another theory I do not subscribe to, can be found :
Here

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 299):
So why don't you just answer the question? What's the matter? Don't you know the answer? Better yet, why don't you dig up an actual high altitude wind map from the day in question and see if we can work together to develop a plausible track consistent with your theory that both pilots were incapacitated. Believe me, that's what I would like to believe as well.

I can read weather maps quite well, thank you. And why should I participate in a theory that I object to ? I'm just giving you facts that contradict all your build-up. You have to do your homework on your own.

What is amazing - to me, at least - is that you all have been given a few possibilities, based on technical knowledge and experience, by people who know very well that an accident investigation is a lot more complex than any scenario conspiracists could ever devise... and have refrained from building one scenario... they just explore a hypothesis.
Zeke did, at least three times.
Kaiarahi presented another set....so did a few others, rc135x - who is no longer with us - tried as well and got spam-bombed for his efforts...
How many did pîck up these hints ? A few, very few more open minds.

The basis - or the excuse - for all the foul play scenarii is the loss of the Xponder, followed by loss of coms and (this time) apparently a reversion to basic autopilot modes HDG/ALT.
As most of the posters on this thread don't really know how an aircraft - let alone a modern airliner - works, they get to the obvious simplistic / biased / paranoid conclusion leaning toward the only people who could have disabled these systems : the pilots !!!, whether on their own through some rather twisted pseudo -psychiatric reasonings, or under duress...

So I ask a very simple question : Could there be in the aircraft a place where all the above features are gathered, so that an electrical fire could disable them - and both pilots - at the same time or in a cascade-type of event ?

Alright ! Good Night ! (that's a perfectly acceptable sign-off message when one is changing frequency. No sinister meaning involved    )
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7BOEING7
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:19 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 3):
So I ask a very simple question : Could there be in the aircraft a place where all the above features are gathered, so that an electrical fire could disable them - and both pilots - at the same time or in a cascade-type of event ?

Yes, and the airplane would have crashed into the sea at that point +/-.
 
awthompson
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:27 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 3):
The basis - or the excuse - for all the foul play scenarii is the loss of the Xponder, followed by loss of coms and (this time) apparently a reversion to basic autopilot modes HDG/ALT.
As most of the posters on this thread don't really know how an aircraft - let alone a modern airliner - works, they get to the obvious simplistic / biased / paranoid conclusion leaning toward the only people who could have disabled these systems : the pilots !!!, whether on their own through some rather twisted pseudo -psychiatric reasonings, or under duress...

I think the basis for the 'foul play' possibility comes from more than merely the loss of transponder and loss of comms. For me, what happened afterwards is more compelling, ie, the turn back, the climb, a period of lower flight over the peninsula, a climb back up to the flight levels, at least two more turns at way points, then a route southwards which looks suspiciously like purposeful avoidance of Indonesian radar cover to reach the Indian Ocean. I'm certainly open to hearing other scenarios and will think them through logically also, but I don't believe there has been any other plausible scenario posted yet. Over the various parts in this thread, much discussion has taken place as to whether something else could have caused the various losses. The fire possibility has been suggested, which is possible, but does not explain very well the course of events that have appeared to take place afterwards.

The type of scenario that fits for me is something like that put forward by jpetekyxmd80 at reply 236 in the previous part.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:38 pm

I was watching a show about the Bermuda Triangle last night and learned that there are other similar areas called 'Vile Vortices' - Ivan Sanderson wrote the article "The Twelve Devil's Graveyards Around the World" in 1972 proposing that there were 12 such areas in the world. One of them, called the 'Wharton Basin', covers the area MH370 is supposedly in. Anyway, I just thought I would mention it as I did not know of these areas that are similar to the Bermuda Triangle and found the show interesting. Here are some links:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ma...ierra/esp_mapa_ocultotierra_11.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vile_Vortices

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wharton_Basin
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LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):

Ivan Sanderson is not to be believed about anything.

He thought there was a 15 foot tall penguin running around Florida, and that the old "stop motion" dinosaur movies involved suits fitted over live chickens...

Quote:
A giant, 15-foot tall penguin, Sanderson concluded, must be the explanation, one which “would obviously have to be a wanderer in Florida, out of its natural element and perhaps lost.”
Quote:
Sanderson also opined on the nature of cinematic illusion, as in this passage from one of his last books More Things chapter 5:

Even in the late 1920s the “dinosaurs” in the film of Conan Doyle’s The Lost World were utterly realistic–close-ups of their heads showed drooling saliva, nictitating membranes, and flashing eyes. (Incidentally, these “dinosaurs” were wearing skillfully constructed “suits” made by a man who had a degree in paleontology, and were fitted over live chickens!)
http://orgoneresearch.com/2009/10/19...nt-penguin%E2%80%9D-hoax-revealed/
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:44 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 5):

It is the timing of the loss of comms that tilts me over to the "crime" side.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:01 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 7):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):

Ivan Sanderson is not to be believed about anything.

I only mentioned it as a question was asked threads and threads ago about if the plane could have gone missing in 'the Bermuda Triangle of Asia'. I was surprised to learn that such a place supposedly exists around the area that searchers are looking for MH370. That is all. Nonetheless, still nothing has been found, and nothing might ever be found, so this could turn out to be a similar mystery to those that have happened in the Bermuda Triangle...
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LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 9):

IIRC, none of those "triangles" are real. They all disappear under objective investigation.
 
Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:44 am

We should be thankful for the Inmarsat GES process that keeps polling MH370 every hour to determine whether resources allocated to that a/c in the overall transmission plan can be released (i.e. forced logout) so that other a/c can use them.

Otherwise, we might still have the same number of parts in this thread but with a majority of the posts based on the Bermuda triangle...
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:53 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 3):
So I ask a very simple question : Could there be in the aircraft a place where all the above features are gathered, so that an electrical fire could disable them - and both pilots - at the same time or in a cascade-type of event ?

I don't think that the factual information we have supports the hypothesis that the comms were disabled and the pilots incapacitated at the same time.

The first anomaly (transponder off) was at 01:22 am Malaysian time. According to the Inmarsat Burst Frequency Offset chart, the sharp turn to the southern Indian Ocean occurred at around 2:30 am Malaysian time.

It thus appears that someone was actively controlling the plane at 02:30 am, that is 1 hour 10 minutes after the first anomaly.

Is it possible that the turn at 02:30 am was pre-programmed by the pilots as an emergency procedure and the pilots were incapacitated long before? Yes, it is possible but very hard to explain.

Is it possible that there was a cascading failure disabling the pilots only after 1 hour 10 minutes after the first anomaly? Yes, it is possible, but again very hard to explain.

And this consideration does not even take into account that the failure mode to support the hypothesis must be extremley remote due to the built-in redundacy in the aircraft electric & communications equipment. Also very hard to explain that the failure mode allowed the plane to fly 7+ hours after the first anomaly.

I personally find a pilot suicide (or whatever you call deliberate actions of one of the pilots) the most likely explanation considering the factual information available.

[Edited 2014-04-12 22:18:30]
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:13 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 12):
The first anomaly (transponder off) was at 00:41 am Malaysian time

01:22 MYT / 17:22UTC, actually.

It was 41 minutes into the flight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysi...ight_370#Timeline_of_disappearance

[Edited 2014-04-12 22:14:41]
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:17 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 13):
01:22 MYT / 17:22UTC, actually.

Thanks for the correction. It does not change the thrust of the argument.
 
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zeke
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:41 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 12):
I personally find a pilot suicide (or whatever you call deliberate actions of one of the pilots) the most likely explanation considering the factual information available.

Or it could just be the pilots O2 bottles ran out and they were overcome by smoke. The minimum amount of oxygen allowed to be dispatched with non-etops is not that great, don know the 777 number off hand, it could be an hour. When under stress you go through more.
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AR385
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:51 am

Getting the Bermuda Triangle (or any other triangle) involved in this thread would be a new low as far as I´m concerned. Comparable to the eternal question of why the drier makes your white socks disappear.

Let us steer away from that path please.
 
NAV30
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:54 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 8):
It is the timing of the loss of comms that tilts me over to the "crime" side.

I've been thinking about that. The 'key moment' appears to have been immediately after the First Officer signed off from Malaysian ATC. He didn't apparently check in to the next ATC, which is normal - instead the aircraft appears to have turned back towards Malaysia. But he (or the captain) did not sign back in to Malaysian ATC?

That could have been due to 'pilot error' (though that's very unlikely, I believe that 'signing in' is ingrained among all transport pilots), or a major cockpit problem putting the radio out of action, or the onset of a hijack?

Unfortunately, unless that submarine can work a miracle and find the wreck, we may never know which it was?

[Edited 2014-04-12 22:56:26]
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:02 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 19):
Does look as if the pilots (or possible hijackers) were still in control? But they apparently couldn't (or wouldn't, if hijackers were involved) communicate by radio?

The problem with all the hijacking scenarios is the turning off the ACARS communications paths.

Any hijacker could have instructed the pilots to turn off the transponder. But to have knowledge about the ACARS communications paths and how to turn them off requires an experienced 777 pilot. Even on this forum it was the belief for several days after the incident that disabling ACARS requires access to the E/E bay, despite the fact that there are several professional pilots here.

In my opinion, this fact alone makes the hijacking scenarios extremely unlikely.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:33 am

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 11):
We should be thankful for the Inmarsat GES process that keeps polling MH370 every hour to determine whether resources allocated to that a/c in the overall transmission plan can be released (i.e. forced logout) so that other a/c can use them.

Otherwise, we might still have the same number of parts in this thread but with a majority of the posts based on the Bermuda triangle...

I'm sure the authorities are thankful to Inmarsat that the area they have to search and find pieces of a plane sitting under silt on the sea floor some 4000m deep is now less than a few hundred thousand kms sq... Perhaps the 'polling' should occur more frequently as a result of MH370...???

Quoting AR385 (Reply 16):
Getting the Bermuda Triangle (or any other triangle) involved in this thread would be a new low as far as I´m concerned.

As I previously said the Bermuda Triangle was already mentioned threads ago (in case that part of the post was not read or appeared in a different language). Somebody asked if something similar could have happened here so I thought I'd share those links as it looks like a similar area exists in the area where people believe MH370 is. So if nothing is found in a few weeks, months, years or possibly never, then you had better not keep checking in these threads as you might fall off of your high horse when you see the Bermuda Triangle getting more mentions...  
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AR385
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 7:45 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 21):
As I previously said the Bermuda Triangle was already mentioned threads ago (in case that part of the post was not read or appeared in a different language).

Strange. Since I have read every single post in these 54 threads so far and I have never heard of the Bermuda Triangle or any other geographic/geometric association to MH#370 yet. Do you know there is the "Adriatic sea Triangle too"? As for it appearing in a different language, I doubt it, as the Mods would have deleted it, or I would have probably understood it anyway, given I speak several, fluently.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 21):
So if nothing is found in a few weeks, months, years or possibly never, then you had better not keep checking in these threads as you might fall off of your high horse when you see the Bermuda Triangle getting more mentions..

No high horse of mine, really, maybe just a pony, but I humbly wanted to point out that introducing things as triangles, and unexplained disappearances in the past due to these so called, silent/dead zones as a possible hypothesis for this current accident are preposterous at best and ridiculous at the minimum.

I´m off now to Non-Av, there are some things about the Loch Ness monster I wish to discuss.  
 
LandSweetLand
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:29 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 22):
I´m off now to Non-Av, there are some things about the Loch Ness monster I wish to discuss.

Such as whether it alternates its flippers while swimming or keeps them synchronised? (assuming it has flippers of course)

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 21):
I'm sure the authorities are thankful to Inmarsat that the area they have to search and find pieces of a plane sitting under silt on the sea floor some 4000m deep

Possibly on the side of one of the numerous hills/ridges etc.

At least if the hull is in large sections they could possibly just put those floatation balloons inside it and raise it that way. At least with machinery there's no risk of getting the bends.
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:30 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 5):
I think the basis for the 'foul play' possibility comes from more than merely the loss of transponder and loss of comms. For me, what happened afterwards is more compelling, ie, the turn back, the climb, a period of lower flight over the peninsula, a climb back up to the flight levels, at least two more turns at way points, then a route southwards which looks suspiciously like purposeful avoidance of Indonesian radar cover to reach the Indian Ocean.

I agree. To me, as I said earlier, the inferred sequence of events suggest intelligence but not necessarily intentional processes - by which a mean with any long-term goal.

As the plane has an "intelligent" computer system on board, something going wrong with that "intelligent" system could look like "intentional" behaviour, but in fact be a cascade of dependent errors - or a cascade of human decisions each an attempt to correct the current error, none of which have the ultimate goal of wrecking the aircraft (in fact all of which have the ultimate goal of saving it).

Or it could be an intelligently malign hack. That presentation I linked to implies that someone with a phone could hack the FMS while the aeroplane was still in communication with the ground, and upload an alternative flight-plan that could be triggered when the plane got to IGARI or some other point. Which would be cheaper for a terrorist organisation than spending a whole terrorist.

I'm going to say a word for behavioural science here: I know "armchair psychiatry" can be annoying, but it's actually no less "scientific" than any other realm of trying to make sense of limited data, whether we are trying to find out what the weather was like at dawn on the 8th of March in the South Indian ocean, or what the round trip was for a satellite ping at that time.

Psychiatry sounds "soft" but it's only soft because we have so many damn variables. That's why we use probability distributions! And, weirdly, we do have probability distributions even for bizarre behaviours like flying planes into solid objects on purpose.
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:42 am

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 24):
Or it could be an intelligently malign hack. That presentation I linked to implies that someone with a phone could hack the FMS while the aeroplane was still in communication with the ground, and upload an alternative flight-plan that could be triggered when the plane got to IGARI or some other point.

I finally managed to watch the video that you linked.

On one hand, it seems even more unlikely than the shadowing scenarios that were being thrown around, but on the other hand, I can't get it out of my mind. This was a reputable speaker at a reputable international conference demonstrating this scenario in April 2013, not as a theory but as a practical action.

The reason I can't get it out of my mind is that it overcomes many of the shortcomings of other theories that still lie on the "more likely" end of speculation. It takes away all the speculation about pilot suicide, fights in the cockpit, hypoxia, a fire early on a seven hour flight, and so on. And yet, on the other hand, it seems so hard to believe it could happen - even though it was demonstrated at the computer security conference that it is not only possible but fairly easy.

Please note that I am not for a moment advocating this scenario, but I wish someone could convince me that it is less likely than fires, suicides, and so on, because at the moment I wouldn't dismiss this possibility (nor, frankly, any other, given the lack of hard data we have).
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:38 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 25):
Please note that I am not for a moment advocating this scenario, but I wish someone could convince me that it is less likely than fires, suicides, and so on, because at the moment I wouldn't dismiss this possibility (nor, frankly, any other, given the lack of hard data we have).

Me too.

It's important to remember are looking at an extremely rare event (frequency = 1 in the history of civil aviation, i.e. p=1/gazillion.

And very rare events have very "improbable" i.e., in a frequentist sense, rare, causes.

So there is no good reason to dismiss any scenario as too "improbable" simply on the basis that it's never happened before. Neither has this.

So the best criteria for viability are, firstly, whether a scenario is possible, and, if possible, what else we we need to posit for it to happen, i.e. parsimony

We know there are terrorists who like to kill lots of people by crashing planes (many examples, sadly).

We know there are hackers capable of risking the lives of other people by messing with their computers (many examples of that too, sadly).

And there is at least some evidence that a malign hacker could possibly do this, by phone, from the ground, before contact was lost, and setting up the trigger for the desired sequence of events to be, say, reaching some waypoint (e.g. IGARI).

Therefore IMO, it's a perfectly viable hypothesis. And the fact that it was proposed a priori (before MH370), including the waypoint trigger, not cobbled together after the event, makes my Bayesian neck-hairs rise.
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:09 am

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 26):
So there is no good reason to dismiss any scenario as too "improbable" simply on the basis that it's never happened before. Neither has this

According to the FAA, the scenario you describe does not work on real planes:

http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/11/fa...tphone-airplane-hack-is-a-problem/

Quote:
“The FAA is aware that a German information technology consultant has alleged he has detected a security issue with the Honeywell NZ-2000 Flight Management System (FMS) using only a desktop computer,” said Les Dorr, FAA spokesman, in a statement to TheDC.

“The FAA has determined that the hacking technique described during a recent computer security conference does not pose a flight safety concern because it does not work on certified flight hardware,” he said.

“The described technique cannot engage or control the aircraft’s autopilot system using the FMS or prevent a pilot from overriding the autopilot,” said Dorr.
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:15 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 28):
cording to the FAA, the scenario you describe does not work on real planes:

Thank you.

Assuming the FAA is right, I can probably cross this hypothesis off my list (although Hugo Teso said in his talk that he was almost certain he was not the only person working in this field).

In that context, I wonder whether the FAA denial was specifically aimed at Teso, and therefore whether this might imply (or not exclude the possibility) that a more sophisticated hack could actually work.

Anyway, for the time being, I'll go back to concentrating on the other more orthodox scenarios (if the term 'orthodox' can apply in the strange case of MH370).

[Edited 2014-04-13 03:23:06]
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:38 am

[quote=The handshake occurred at 0019Z. Okay. It would be 0019Z in the search zone too at the time. That's sort-of the point of UTC.[/quote]

Duhhh, of course   . I don't know what I was thinking, but I obviously should have my morning coffee before writing anything.

I'd also like to thank Summa767 for the particularly nasty PM he sent to remind me of my low intelligence and other shortcomings. Does anyone know if there's a way of blocking PMs?

[Edited 2014-04-13 03:43:09]
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:38 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 28):
According to the FAA, the scenario you describe does not work on real planes:

I don't find that very persuasive.

The guy deliberately designed it NOT to work on real planes. He said so. Clearly it would be the height of irresponsibility to design a system that would! And then tell everyone about it!

I don't think anyone is suggesting that someone used Hugo Teso's app.

The key thing was his apparent demonstration that apps that could do the kind of thing he described were possible in principle.

Nothing in that link reassures me that the hack is not possible in principle. The entire reason we discover security vulnerabilities in software after they are in use is because whoever wrote the software thought a hack was not possible.

But to repeat: I think a hack is a lower probability than a not-hack. But any one explanation is lower probability than all other explanations, in this case, because there simply aren't any high-probability explanation. One of those low-probability explanations must be true though, because a plane on its way from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing ended up a thousand miles west of Perth.

Probably.
 
art
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:26 am

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 31):
The guy deliberately designed it NOT to work on real planes. He said so. Clearly it would be the height of irresponsibility to design a system that would! And then tell everyone about it!

I don't know any hackers but I get the impression that personality-wise they seek admiration from their peers to boost their egos at the cost of other people. And you do not think that hackers act highly irresponsibly?
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:46 am

Quoting art (Reply 32):
And you do not think that hackers act highly irresponsibly?

Not sure what you are asking. Obviously I think it's "highly irresponsible" to cause damage to systems on which people's lives depend. And doing so deliberately as a method of mass murder would be, well, mass murder.

But as I keep saying, I don't think it's a high probability scenario. I don't think any one scenario is high probability, and the true scenario may be different to any that anyone has yet proposed.

But something "low probability" caused that plane to end up in the Indian Ocean. There are many low-probability candidates, and I suggest that hacking is higher probability than some, and possibly higher than many.
 
WingBuff
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:50 am

Gotta hand it to the ballsiness of the Russians, making such outrageous allegations

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...istan-russian-intelligence-3407468

Apologies if this has been discussed before.

[Edited 2014-04-13 04:52:47]
 
rfields5421
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:03 pm

Quoting wingbuff (Reply 34):
Apologies if this has been discussed before.

This was very much what the retired USAF general was promoting on US networks in the first couple weeks after the plane disappeared. That the plane was at a 'Taliban Air Base' near the Pakistan/ Afghanistan border.

Discounted as unreliable even then, and more so after the satellite ping data became available.
 
art
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:13 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 33):
Quoting art (Reply 32):And you do not think that hackers act highly irresponsibly?Not sure what you are asking. Obviously I think it's "highly irresponsible" to cause damage to systems on which people's lives depend.

Sorry, but your perception of irresponsibilty seems very contained to me. How serious do the ramifications of hackers' actions need to be to qualify as being thought of as highly irresponsible by you?

Quote:
A Russian newspaper has claimed that Flight MH370 was hijacked by "unknown terrorists" and flown to Afghanistan, where the crew and passengers are now being held hostage
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...intelligence-3407468#ixzz2yldt2rRT

Wish it were true. But what are the prospects of flying something with a massive RCS into Afghan airspace without fighters responding?
 
NAV30
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:34 pm

Search zone now apparently reduced to 340 sq. kms. On the other hand, the black boxes appear to have fallen silent.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-search-zone-in-hunt-for-black-box

The British are sending a nuclear submarine that probably has all sorts of advanced sonar. On the other hand, it's unlikely to be able to go down to 4,000 metres or whatever, military submarines don't need that sort of capability as far as I know?
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:41 pm

Quoting art (Reply 36):
Sorry, but your perception of irresponsibilty seems very contained to me. How serious do the ramifications of hackers' actions need to be to qualify as being thought of as highly irresponsible by you?

I'm not sure where you are getting your idea of my "perception of irresponsibility". Perhaps you misread one of my posts.

ETA: it occurs to me that you think that Hugo Teso is a "hacker". Or that I think he is. As far as I can tell, he's an aviation security consultant (and also apparently a trained commercial pilot).

[Edited 2014-04-13 05:46:03]
 
WingBuff
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:52 pm

Quoting art (Reply 36):
Quote:
A Russian newspaper has claimed that Flight MH370 was hijacked by "unknown terrorists" and flown to Afghanistan, where the crew and passengers are now being held hostage
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...intelligence-3407468#ixzz2yldt2rRT

Wish it were true. But what are the prospects of flying something with a massive RCS into Afghan airspace without fighters responding?

Even if they did fly over to Afghan territories, somebody in India, Pakistan and the surrounding regions would've surely noticed them and reported. People are not blind, especially if the plane flew at low altitude to avoid radar detection.
 
art
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:55 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 38):
ETA: it occurs to me that you think that Hugo Teso is a "hacker". Or that I think he is. As far as I can tell, he's an aviation security consultant (and also apparently a trained commercial pilot).

Apologies, I did not read enough about this.
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:57 pm

However, more convincing to me than the FAA, is the opinion of Hugo Teso himself:

No, I don't think the MH370 was hacked

I spent the last days talking with countless journalists, all of them interested on the possibility that the MH370 was victim of some kind of on board systems hack; my answer to all of them was the same: I don’t think the MH370 was hacked.

Looks like that was not what they were expecting so, as far as I know, no mentions to those interviews have been published. Not going into detail about the reasons behind my opinion, being common sense one of them, I would like to make it clear here: I don’t think the MH370 was hacked.

There is very little and incomplete information about what happened to the MH370, so let’s wait for further developments and avoid speculating with highly unlikely theories.
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:59 pm

Quoting art (Reply 40):
Apologies, I did not read enough about this.

No problem  
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:07 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 12):
I don't think that the factual information we have supports the hypothesis that the comms were disabled and the pilots incapacitated at the same time.

It would be really helpful if you posted what youy call *facts* to back up your argument

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 8):
It is the timing of the loss of comms that tilts me over to the "crime" side.

Same as above.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 12):

The first anomaly (transponder off) was at 01:22 am Malaysian time. According to the Inmarsat Burst Frequency Offset chart, the sharp turn to the southern Indian Ocean occurred at around 2:30 am Malaysian time.

Let's say we do agree on this very aspect of the accident :
That turn at 02:30 Z happened ouside Indonesia - which everybody assumes was never overflown.

So let's take, just as a demonstration a point called POVUS, some 50 Nm north of Bandar Aceh.

1/- Hypothesis oif a straight navigation from IGARI to POVUS :
Distance = 535 Nm
Assumption : FL 350 and Mach .84 / SAT -45°C + Wind Easterly 20 Kt------> Ground Speed ( GS) = 514 kt
Straight time to POVUS = 1hr 3min + 3 mins for the turn = 1hr 6 mins
So from UGARI at 17:22 , we'd be at POVUS at 17:22 Z + 01.06 = 18:28 Z.

2/- Hypothesis of a programmed navigation back to the Dtraits and some wriggles around VAMPI and POVUS :
IGARI 53 nm VENLO 36 Khota Baru 133 Penang 64 GUNIP 155 BOSTI 65 VAMPI 102 NILAM 90 POVUS.
Total distance = 698 nm
With the same assumptioin on FL and Mach and TAS = 494 kt ---> GS = 500 kt,
Time to POVUS = 1hr 24 mins + 3 mins original turn + 2 mins turn at BOSTI and VAMPI = 1hr 29 mins
which brings the time at POVUS at 17:22 Z + 01:29 = 18:51 Z
Now, if we con,sider the foul play - i.e dive to 5000 ft for radar avoidance - the ground speed wouldn't be higher than 380 kt b( with an IAS = 350 kt ---> TAS = 380 kt.
This time, 698 nm / 380 kt = 1hr 53 mins -è--> time at POVUS = 17:22 Z = 01:53 = 19:15 Z

3/- The 450 TAS effect at POVUS :
(This is one of the bases for the *loci* building by the NTSB) :
3.1 : the straight route time = 1hr 11 mins -------> Time at POVUS = 18:33 Z
3.2 : the *waypoint route* time = 1hr 34 mins---> Time at POVUS = 18:56 Z
3.3 : the low level route ( no change )--------------> Time at POVUS = 19:15 Z

Of course, you may well change the general direction of the aircraft, hence choose a position southwest of POVUS...
Doesn't change the fact that the waypoint route would even see an increase of the *time at* , aven worse with the low level scenario.

What other facts have you got to back your theory ?

[Edited 2014-04-13 06:49:48]
Contrail designer
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:26 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 43):
So from UGARI at 17:22 , we'd be at POVUS at 17:22 Z + 01.06 = 17:28 Z.

I suppose you mean from IGARI at 17:22 Z + 01.06 = 18.28 Z.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 43):
Time to POVUS = 1hr 24 mins 3 mins original turn 2 mins turn at BOSTI and VAMPI = 1hr 29 mins
which brings the time at POVUS at 17:22 Z + 01:29 = 17:51 Z

And you probably mean 17:22 Z + 01:29 = 18:51 Z.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 43):
3/- The 450 TAS effect at POVUS :
(This is one of the bases for the *loci* building by the NTSB) :
3.1 : the straight route time = 1hr 11 mins -------> Time at POVUS = 17:33 Z
3.2 : the *waypoint route* time = 1hr 34 mins---> Time at POVUS = 17:56 Z
3.3 : the low level route ( no change )--------------> Time at POVUS = 19:15 Z

And finally:
3.1 Time at Povus = 18:33 Z
3.2 Time at Povus = 18:56 Z
3.3 Time at Povus = 19:15 Z

Of the tracks you suggest, the first one is consistent with a sharp turn west of Indonesia at 18:30 Z. It probably is able to accommodate some altitude changes for a short period, if the turn is east of POVUS.

EDIT: It might be that we are totally misunderstanding each other. I am not suggesting that a waypoint route was used. What I said was that if a waypoint route was NOT used, whoever was flying must have controlled the plane at least for 1 hour 10 minutes (until the sharp turn). Thus in the mechanical failure scenario pilot incapacitation cannot have happened before 1830 Z, leaving the pilots 1 hours 10 minutes time to handle the situatiuon.

[Edited 2014-04-13 06:49:26]
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:29 pm

Has anyone yet offered an explanation as to why the Doppler "evidence for sharp turns" should apparently right-handed turns? Am I miss understanding the Doppler?
 
vnangia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:56 pm

Quoting art (Reply 36):

Indeed. In fact, when the northern corridor was still an option, and later when Duncan Steele & Co were still claiming the Inmarsat data proved nothing about the southern route, the balance of evidence suggested they were incorrect because none of the numerous civilian and military radar installations along the northern track picked up anything as large as a 777.

ETA: And their argument that somehow the 777 hid in the radar shadow of another aircraft was ridiculous at best.

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 38):
However, more convincing to me than the FAA, is the opinion of Hugo Teso himself

This is one of the most responsible things I've ever heard/seen/read from anyone during this entire saga. Bravo to Hugo Teso.

[Edited 2014-04-13 07:00:03]
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:04 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 41):
3.1 Time at Povus = 18:33 Z
3.2 Time at Povus = 18:56 Z
3.3 Time at Povus = 19:15 Z

My apologies. Times are corrected now.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 41):
Of the tracks you suggest, the first one is consistent with a sharp turn west of Indonesia at 18:30 Z. It probably is able to accommodate some altitude changes for a short period, if the turn is east of POVUS.

So please elaborate... *probably* is no longer acceptable with the data above of the facts that the pàlane had to reach the firs *locus* at 20:11 Z.
So, if the first one is consistent with the data that we have on the *loci*, the Doppler shifts and the trajectories that are derived, what is the creibility of the other two, hence the credibility of the foul play theories at that stage ?

... and your comment is exactly where we differ : I give a mathematical model which totally excludes all the theories about a flown navigation, be it at high or - even worse - at low level... and you just add a *probably possible* assumption without any data to prove it.

Of course, I understand that the media are more trustworthy than I am, especially when they broadcast wild scenarii that fit the common prejudice.   

[Edited 2014-04-13 07:06:48]

[Edited 2014-04-13 07:07:45]
Contrail designer
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:17 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 44):
... and your comment is exactly where we differ : I give a mathematical model which totally excludes all the theories about a flown navigation, be it at high or - even worse - at low level... and you just add a *probably possible* assumption without any data to prove it.

Yes, you are right, I don't have competence to calculate whether the plane would be safely west of Indonesia out of the radar range at 18:30 Z if it instead of flying at a cruise speed and cruise altitude from IGARI dropped to 5,000 ft to re-pressurize over the Strait of Malacca and otherwise used maximum speed.

However, the central point of my argument was that the pilot incapacitation could not have occurred before 18:30 Z, as that was the time of the sharp turn according to the Inmarsat Burst Frequency Offset data (unless waypoint programming was used, which you showed to be inconsistent with the plane turning west of Indonesia).
 
COEWR787
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:20 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 34):
The British are sending a nuclear submarine that probably has all sorts of advanced sonar. On the other hand, it's unlikely to be able to go down to 4,000 metres or whatever, military submarines don't need that sort of capability as far as I know?

The US Seawolf Class submarines have a test depth of 490m (1600 feet). Of those Jimmy Carter reportedly is equipped with the ability to launch and retrieve autonomous vehicles while under water.
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 45):
However, the central point of my argument was that the pilot incapacitation could not have occurred before 18:30 Z, as that was the time of the sharp turn according to the Inmarsat Burst Frequency Offset data

So, first question : What was he doing there ?
Second question : Can't you really see another explanation ?
Third question : Is that really what I said?

[Edited 2014-04-13 07:40:05]
Contrail designer
 
art
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:46 pm

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 46):
Quoting NAV30 (Reply 34):The British are sending a nuclear submarine that probably has all sorts of advanced sonar. On the other hand, it's unlikely to be able to go down to 4,000 metres or whatever, military submarines don't need that sort of capability as far as I know?

The US Seawolf Class submarines have a test depth of 490m (1600 feet). Of those Jimmy Carter reportedly is equipped with the ability to launch and retrieve autonomous vehicles while under water.

Since we are moving towards the time at which the ULB's fall silent, can anyone list what capabilities there are to detect metallic submarine debris from a range of several kilometers?
 
panampaul
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:52 pm

Authorities reported they are widening the search area (after having narrowed it down) today after 5 days without pings.

Flight 370 Search Zone Widens After 5 Days Without Pings

Quote:
It has been more than five days since searchers looking for the missing Malaysia Airlines jetliner detected any pings from what was believed to be the emergency beacons from the plane’s black boxes and authorities announced an expansion in the search area.

In a message similar to the prior day’s, the Joint Agency Coordination Center said, “There have been no confirmed acoustic detections over the past 24 hours.”

The authority said that the visual search area, ...

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