DLX737200
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ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:21 pm

http://www.11alive.com/videos/news/local/2014/06/13/10499109/

On June 11 at 1645 local, Delta 630, a 777 from DTW was on final for Runway 27L. The controller makes a joke by telling the plane to "Go Around" before quickly admitting that he's just joking and that the flight was cleared to land. Delta 630 did not take the joke and went around. The FAA is investigating.

I hate how the news story claims the joke "diverted" the plane. Great journalism, as always! The video in the news article cut out what I think was an important piece of information from the pilot so I included the actual LiveATC.net audio clip here:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ka...L-Twr-9R-27L-Jun-11-2014-2030Z.mp3
Fast forward to around 15:30.

So what do you all think? Seemed like information that might not have been necessary at that moment from the pilot but I'm sure the controller should've bit his tongue too. I have talked to this controller many times and he's a very friendly and professional gentleman. I think he was just having a little too much fun that day. I hope he doesn't get in trouble.
 
a321luke
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:43 pm

I'm sure he's a great guy, but telling a pilot on final approach to "go around" as a joke shouldn't happen IMHO.
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Moose135
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:58 pm

How does a controller "joke" about giving a go around command to an aircraft on final?
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azjubilee
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:51 am

Wow... while I get the humor, it was really bad timing and choice of words. It's not uncommon to alert ATC of gate assignments etc, to assist in ground planning, so I don't fault the pilots whatsoever. In a busy environment such as the landing phase, you never expect to hear the words "go around" unless it's issued by ATC or a decision by one of the pilots and pilots certainly don't expect ATC to joke around with the matter.

[Edited 2014-06-13 18:22:49]
 
trnswrld
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:08 am

Man that's too bad the controller got stepped on as he was saying just kidding in the same transmission. So it's not like he literally said go around then stopped the transmission. The pilot immediately keyed back up and blocked him while he was still talking.

Moose135,
Did you even listen to the tapes? Answer your own question, it's simple how it happened. I'm not saying that it's ok for a controller to joke, but had the pilot not keyed up while the controller was still talking this wouldn't have happened.

Well whatever, I personally thought the controller sounded very professional and was doing a great job. Like already said it was just an unfortunate thing. No one will get in trouble especially when they hear the tapes.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:34 am

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 4):
Did you even listen to the tapes? Answer your own question, it's simple how it happened. I'm not saying that it's ok for a controller to joke, but had the pilot not keyed up while the controller was still talking this wouldn't have happened.

And that's exactly why you don't make jokes like that. If I hear "go around" from tower it's not gonna take very long at all for me to hit TOGA while advancing throttles forward and command flaps to 15, royally screwing over the approach. Furthermore, after hearing "go around" and then just kidding or whatever, I'd have to be very certain I understood that the controller was joking. If there is any doubt, going around is the safer bet. I'm sure I could recover the approach if I realized it was really a joke fast enough but the approach might be somewhat off and my concentration would be shaken. Not the best thing for final approach

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 4):
Well whatever, I personally thought the controller sounded very professional and was doing a great job. Like already said it was just an unfortunate thing. No one will get in trouble especially when they hear the tapes.

I'm sure he is a professional but this was a big lapse in judgement. I'm not the FAA but personally, I don't think he should get fired (as long as this is an isolated incident) but he should get reprimanded somehow. It may look like a harmless joke but you can see what can happen--the flight went around wasting thousands of dollars and there was confusion on the most critical phase of flight

I doubt they won't do anything to him; hopefully he'll be able to take his punishment and continue his job
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EK413
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:59 am

Bad timing to be joking with an aircraft about to touchdown. Definitely bad timing and wasn't really a smart move.

EK413
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trnswrld
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:04 am

DeltaMD90,
I absolutely agree with you on everything, like I said it's just too bad that the pilot literally instantly keyed up in the instant that it takes a person to begin the next word. Obviously not the pilots fault and all the controllers, but it's just an unfortunate event that caused no harm to anyone, just wasted money. I highly doubt anything will happen to the controller with the exception of maybe a short talk from a supervisor and the union. I bet that controller won't do that again though.

EK413
As far as timing goes, I wouldn't necessarily say the plane was about to touch down. In the U.S planes are typically atleast a few miles out when they first call tower and get landing clearance.

[Edited 2014-06-13 19:07:16]

[Edited 2014-06-13 19:08:34]
 
wjcandee
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:05 am

I don't see how this is much different than the idiots that either jokingly or because they are indignant about something use the word "bomb" in a sentence at the airport. They deserve what they get, and what they usually get is a lot of inconvenience, or worse.

I personally don't think that anybody listening to that tape would instantly make the connection between not having a gate and being sent around, just like the crew wouldn't.

It's a command, and you obey it, because coming unexpectedly like that it may be because he sees something emergent that he doesn't have time to explain. It was a totally-stupid, unprofessional, and potentially-harmful "joke". The man's judgment is clearly impaired. It's like saying "stop" to an aircraft while it's rolling down the runway. No excuse, and, frankly, I was more sympathetic to his situation before I actually listened to the tape.

When it comes to gender issue training in the workplace, instructors typically pound over and over and over that "I was just joking" isn't an excuse, and that "jokes" get people in more trouble in the workplace than just about anything else.

Anyone in a position of significant responsibility has to be extremely-careful when joking about something. A red flag should pop up in their head, and they should think about it for longer than a split-second before opening their mouths. And if they fail to do so, they need to be made to sit down for a while.

This guy, no matter how good a controller he is or how nice a guy he is, needs a time out to think about finding a new paradigm in which to operate. And he may want to think about how lucky he is that DL doesn't send him a bill for the extra fuel. I don't think a quick talking to is in order. I think that standing tall before the Man, and being thoroughly dressed-down, is in order.

At a minimum, he should be relieved of duty at ATL, sent for retraining, and then put somewhere for a while where he can't do as much harm.

PS Once it's on the local news, you can be sure that they won't quietly give him a slap on the wrist.

[Edited 2014-06-13 19:19:44]
 
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Moose135
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:09 am

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 4):
Did you even listen to the tapes? Answer your own question, it's simple how it happened. I'm not saying that it's ok for a controller to joke, but had the pilot not keyed up while the controller was still talking this wouldn't have happened.

Yes, I listened to the tape. And I clearly heard the controller say "Go around". Doesn't matter what happened after that. If I'm flying, and I hear the controller, or the guy in the other seat, say "go around" I'm pushing up the power and worrying about why later. That's why it doesn't matter that the controller's subsequent "just kidding" was blocked - you don't say that unless you mean it.
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catiii
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 4):

Right, so it's the pilot's fault for keying the mike to acknowledge the go around. Unreal...
 
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atcsundevil
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:45 am

This is an unfortunate situation and a moment of poor judgement for the controller. I'd have a hard time believing he'd get canned -- it was stupid, but he didn't compromise safety. He might spend a little time on the beach and may have some additional training, but given the cost of sending a 772 around for no reason, that's probably a fair punishment. I'm sure this is a mistake he won't make again.

I will say that I'm rather surprised this even got news coverage. It must have been a very slow news day.
 
trnswrld
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:53 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 10):
Right, so it's the pilot's fault for keying the mike to acknowledge the go around. Unreal...

Ummm no, I clearly stated who's at fault here (the controller). I said its unfortunate that the pilot keyed up so quickly that the next word didn't even roll off the controllers tongue.
 
wjcandee
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:25 am

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 12):
I said its unfortunate that the pilot keyed up so quickly that the next word didn't even roll off the controllers tongue.

Actually, he didn't say that he was kidding right away. I count 2 seconds. In that time, you've already called Go Around in the cockpit and started advancing the throttles, folding up the gear, etc.

Just stupid, stupid, stupid.

Just look at this at 2:40 and after. The power starts coming up within a second of the go around call, and the gear is on the way up in 2 seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0fVI4l8KQM&feature=kp

Stupid.
 
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EK413
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:27 am

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 7):
As far as timing goes, I wouldn't necessarily say the plane was about to touch down. In the U.S planes are typically atleast a few miles out when they first call tower and get landing clearance.

So I take its okay to joke with a pilot during the most crucial part of flight, landing?

Regardless, I personally believe it was uncalled for joke...

My 0.02c

EK413
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Acey
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:08 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 13):
Just look at this at 2:40 and after. The power starts coming up within a second of the go around call, and the gear is on the way up in 2 seconds.

Maybe not necessarily the best example since they are extremely short final and there's already a guy on the runway, and they're expecting to go around. For everything to be folding and be at TOGA in DL 630's case is optimistic, no?
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
wjcandee
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:19 am

Quoting Acey (Reply 15):
For everything to be folding and be at TOGA in DL 630's case is optimistic, no?

I guarantee you the captain has already called for the go-around and the FO is starting his duties.
 
catiii
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:30 am

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 12):

No, you clearly implied that some blame belonged to the pilots. From your post:

"Did you even listen to the tapes? Answer your own question, it's simple how it happened. I'm not saying that it's ok for a controller to joke, but had the pilot not keyed up while the controller was still talking this wouldn't have happened."

Read the last part again: "...had the pilot not keyed up while the controller was still talking this wouldn't have happened."

As I said earlier, unreal...

[Edited 2014-06-13 22:31:48]
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:32 am

If the controller had said afterward, even if it was blocked, "Delta 630 disregard, continue approach." this wouldn't be a story. I suppose it is remotely, very remotely, possible the controller either saw a conflict and asked the plane to go around or lost his focus of the big picture. Then to correct the situation he choose his words extremely poorly telling the crew to ignore the previous command. Now as many above have correctly pointed out that may have been too late for an alert crew swiftly and correctly responding to the go around to recover the approach. The difference in the wording though is between an abundance of caution and Johnny from Airplane! messing with you for no good reason. I don't think firing him is appropriate for an isolated incident but there are some other airports in the Atlanta metro area he can work for now.
 
peterjohns
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:59 am

What I would like to know is-
How did this become public? We have Go Arounds not on a daily basis - but at least two a week I would estimate, due to multiple reasons. It is usually no biggie, the flight just is feeded to another approach (if the wx is o.k.)
Nothing that would have to be reported by controller nor pilot.
 
SocalApproach
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:29 am

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 19):
What I would like to know is-
How did this become public?

I was wondering that too for some odd reason. Who is initiating the investigation to get the FAA involved. Does DL want the FAA to foot the fuel bill for the unnecessary go around? Unless the pilots complained about it.....   
 
Acey
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:43 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 16):
I guarantee you the captain has already called for the go-around and the FO is starting his duties.

I didn't say they weren't.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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atcsundevil
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:12 am

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 20):
Unless the pilots complained about it.....

I guarantee that's what happened to trigger the FAA investigation. The pilot got pissed and called the supe or he went to his chief pilot. It still doesn't explain how it went public though. I suppose the pilot or the airline could have gone to the media, but they wouldn't stand to gain anything from doing that. Maybe it could be like the JFK incident with the kid on frequency that was discovered by LiveATC listeners? People were so shocked by that...as if it didn't used to happen all the time  

I guess some in the media are looking for any opportunity to show the FAA is unsafe with their seemingly commonplace sensationalist approach. This should have been one of those stupid situations where the controller spends a couple of days on the beach, everybody picks on him for a while, and it becomes a dumb anecdote that's retold from time to time. It was stupid, but it wasn't dangerous. Reporting it in the media gives everyday passengers the perception that this was a dangerous action. Back in the day, controllers at a TRACON that shall remain nameless regularly played tackle football while working traffic. That was probably pretty damn dangerous. Those days are over, but people need to realize that if this is as bad as it gets, then the flying public is in pretty good shape.

The pilot has every right to be pissed, as does the airline, but this isn't something that should have gone public in my opinion.
 
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skygirl1990
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:10 am

I'm in complete agreement with the pilots actions, regardless of whether it was 'clearly a joke' or not. I would absolutely imagine as soon as the words 'go-around' were said TOGA procedures were in effect, thereby an aborted approach would be underway regardless. There is also no guarantee that the pilots would have heard or completely understood that it was 'a joke'

I'm just wondering what the reactions would have been if a pilot were to say "Mayday Mayday Mayday, nah just kidding". It should be no different.
 
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sturmovik
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:18 am

While the joke itself was poorly timed, I wouldn't fault his comedic timing 
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lhrnue
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:39 am

In the environment I'm working in (which is in aviation but not related to any fight operations) we would treat this event as a non conformance, which would result in additional training and potentially revised training procedures.

Somebody made a mistake which lead to the execution of a safety procedure.
The safety procedure work as expected, nobody is hurt.
The safety procedure cost several companies and private persons an amount of money (delay, fuel, aircraft not available, landing slot, investigation, …). Regardless how much money it is (20$ or 20000$), in a production environment this is waste under Kaizen and will be raised and documented as a Non Conformance Report.
The non-conformance will be turned into actions to avoid the waste in future … in this case the controller will be trained. It might be even result in payments to compensate the effected companies or provate persons, subject to contractual agreements.
The event would/should not result in any punishment, since nobody should have an interested to lose a highly trained ATC controller.
Replacing the ATC controller would cost my much more money (more waste) than training the person which made the mistake.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:53 am

Is it a standard protocol for pilot to comment about gate assignment on final. Pilot should have told controller long before. I think controller just responded to pilot's surprise comment about gate assignment.

Controller: "630, clear to land"
Pilot: "I don't have a gate yet"
Controller: (You got to be kidding, telling now) "Go around, just kidding, park somewhere"
 
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777Jet
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:32 pm

I can hear a bit of 'stress' in the controller's voice when issuing the climb instructions after the pilot said ''you told us to go around''... He knew he messed up, big time...
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NBGSkyGod
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:55 pm

I kind of agree that this controller needs a talking to. I have joked plenty with pilots, sometimes even joking about sending them around for my own amusement, but I don't do it on final, and I don't use the word "go around". There is a time and a place for levity, short final is not it.
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trnswrld
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:37 pm

I listened to the tapes again and I stand corrected. The controller clearly does un-key his mic and pause for a second or two. So my apologies. I was at work, it was late, and I was trying to listening on my iphone with people around me. Oops

Im still surprised though by the amount of people talking about how this controller is going to be reprimanded. Like I said before, if anything it will be just a quick chat with a supervisor and maybe a union rep...nothing more. Its the Gov't people come on. It was just a stupid thing to say by the controller even though it was all with good intentions. Safety was NEVER jeopardized. Its too bad now that no pilot or controller has any privacy with all these frequencies streaming online. Im sure it wasn't anyone involved that went to media that's just ridiculous. It has to be some person sitting on their computer listening to liveatc and said "hey listen to this" and here the story blows up. As catiii says "unreal".
 
migair54
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:55 pm

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 20):

I was wondering that too for some odd reason. Who is initiating the investigation to get the FAA involved. Does DL want the FAA to foot the fuel bill for the unnecessary go around? Unless the pilots complained about it.....   

After a Go-Around pilots need to fill a form usually, I'm not sure if in Delta they do.

No joking here, Go Around intruction is Go Around, no question and after pressing the TO/GA buttons there's no way back, questions and explanations after landing.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 26):

Is it a standard protocol for pilot to comment about gate assignment on final. Pilot should have told controller long before. I think controller just responded to pilot's surprise comment about gate assignment.

Controller: "630, clear to land"
Pilot: "I don't have a gate yet"
Controller: (You got to be kidding, telling now) "Go around, just kidding, park somewhere"

I dont think the pilot should have said anything about the parking to the tower either, just land, leave the runway and solve the problem later with ground control and operations, when peacefully on ground.

Very unfortunate for the controller but I think a verbal warning and a small chat will be enough to avoid this ftom happening again.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:01 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 26):
Is it a standard protocol for pilot to comment about gate assignment on final.

Judging from the professional part of the controller's response, I'd say it's normal for ATL. Obviously, the pilots have to alert somebody that they have nowhere to go after they land, and I'd imagine that that need is more acute with an aircraft the size of the 777. Note also that the frequency is pretty quiet, with the tower controller even remarking that he has "no one behind" DAL630.
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bennett123
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:05 pm

I notice that people say this was not a safety issue.

I would have thought that the risk, (which clearly are very low) would be increased if you add the stresses of of go around at a busy airport like atl.
 
romeobravo
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:19 pm

Not a good time to joke.

I wonder how much a go-around costs DL in fuel?

Maybe 1000$?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:03 pm

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 29):
Safety was NEVER jeopardized.

I disagree. It might have. Go arounds are designed to be safe, but the controller saying it was a joke and to continue could have been dangerous... Think about it, what if the pilots had "get-home-itis" and said screw it, we're gonna land and they tried to salvage the approach after going off profile? In that case the pilots would be at fault but the controller would still be for his joke.

Keep in mind, when you get a go around call, you don't take a few seconds to have a chat and wonder if it's just a joke. It's power-TOGA-flaps-positive rate-gear up. That is FAST... As in you hear "go around" and the PF repeats go around to the PM and is advancing the thrust lever while hitting TOGA and commanding flaps to whatever go aroubds are in the 777. That is all done in probably a second... The plane starts to climb and after a positive rate the gear is commanded up.

You don't think it's a safety threat to have the pilots in the middle of this then hearing it's a joke and, heaven forbid, deciding to continue the approach? Even in this short time, they will be off profile, and trying to salvage a bad approach is DANGEROUS

(Keep in mind, I'm talking 737 land here but I'm sure 777 go arounds are very similar)

I also disagree that his supervisors will just laugh it off and tell him not to do it again. This was pretty serious, you can't just play around and have planes go around

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 33):
Maybe 1000$?

It depends, but a gouge number I've heard is 2000 pounds of fuel for the extra approach and that's for a 737. A 777 would be a lot more. Don't have the the cost of fuel in pounds but you can calculate that yourself. It will be over $1000 I can tell you that. And that's assuming the 777 got right back into the approach and didn't have to hold or get vectored forever. ATL is extremely busy
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
SPREE34
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:40 pm

Quoting moose135 (Reply 2):
How does a controller "joke" about giving a go around command to an aircraft on final?
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 34):
I disagree. It might have. Go arounds are designed to be safe, but the controller saying it was a joke and to continue could have been dangerous... Think about it, what if the pilots had "get-home-itis" and said screw it, we're gonna land and they tried to salvage the approach after going off profile? In that case the pilots would be at fault but the controller would still be for his joke.

Keep in mind, when you get a go around call, you don't take a few seconds to have a chat and wonder if it's just a joke. It's power-TOGA-flaps-positive rate-gear up. That is FAST... As in you hear "go around" and the PF repeats go around to the PM and is advancing the thrust lever while hitting TOGA and commanding flaps to whatever go aroubds are in the 777. That is all done in probably a second... The plane starts to climb and after a positive rate the gear is commanded up.

You don't think it's a safety threat to have the pilots in the middle of this then hearing it's a joke and, heaven forbid, deciding to continue the approach? Even in this short time, they will be off profile, and trying to salvage a bad approach is DANGEROUS

That^^^^^^^right there. Fire the clown. He can find work in the circus or try his hand at stand up comedy in night clubs. Says a lot about the FAA's safety attitude that the guy would even consider saying this as a joke.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:23 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 35):
Fire the clown. He can find work in the circus or try his hand at stand up comedy in night clubs. Says a lot about the FAA's safety attitude that the guy would even consider saying this as a joke.

Easier said than done.

We should have invested in advanced air traffic management technology like third world countries are doing. Didn't do that.
We should have hired enough controllers to have good mix of experienced and trainees. Didn't do that.

Now we have a situation where bulk of experienced controllers are going to retire and we don't have enough trainees.

With this kind of bad publicity those who are interested to become controllers will have second thoughts.

BTW, if I understand correctly there is no punishment for self-reported incidents.
 
peterjohns
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RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:41 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 30):
After a Go-Around pilots need to fill a form usually,

That I find hard to believe. It would be very safety comprimising, as when in doubt , the pilots might want to force a landing
in order to avert the paper work. That can´t be.
Go Around is a quite a normal procedure, although it takes some overcoming to get the words out sometimes.
But once the decision is made- you stick to it.
 
skywaymanaz
Posts: 636
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 1:00 pm

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 29):
Its too bad now that no pilot or controller has any privacy with all these frequencies streaming online

As a pilot I for one want it that way. Most of the controllers I've talked to are professional and do their job well. That said let's just say a few times I've been told things by them that were at best a mistake on their part. I'd rather it not be my word alone against theirs if it the controller gave me a phone number to call to start enforcement action. I'd want to be able to get that information independently without giving ATC the oppurtunity to lose the tape. Now yes if they did that the enforcement action falls apart but that's a lot of stress to go through needlessly in the mean time. My attorney keeps his plane at the same airport I do and he screwed up once. He was so used to hearing "Monitor Ground 121.7" taxiing off the runway he didn't catch one day they told him "Contact ground 121.7", ooops! With LiveATC he could easily confirm yup that was his mistake all right and he just made an incursion  
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3376
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:48 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 37):
That I find hard to believe. It would be very safety comprimising, as when in doubt , the pilots might want to force a landing
in order to avert the paper work. That can´t be.

Most airlines require an incident report of some sort when a go around is performed. Some airlines even require a maintenance log write up to record the cycling of the gear. Further, ATC generally asks for the reason for the go around, presumably for their records as well. So yes... it happens, of course, they complete this paperwork, or online for AFTER the flight is complete.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 30):
I dont think the pilot should have said anything about the parking to the tower either, just land, leave the runway and solve the problem later with ground control and operations, when peacefully on ground.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 31):
Judging from the professional part of the controller's response, I'd say it's normal for ATL. Obviously, the pilots have to alert somebody that they have nowhere to go after they land, and I'd imagine that that need is more acute with an aircraft the size of the 777

As mentioned before, its very normal practice to alert tower of the gate assignment (or lack of) upon checkin. It helps keep traffic flowing at busy airports by getting airplanes moving in the right direction immediately after landing.
 
Acey
Posts: 981
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:06 pm

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 37):
That I find hard to believe. It would be very safety comprimising, as when in doubt , the pilots might want to force a landing in order to avert the paper work. That can´t be.

ATC does paperwork for a missed approach in Canada, and it is reported.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
peterjohns
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:49 am

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting Acey (Reply 40):
ATC does paperwork for a missed approach in Canada, and it is reported.

I must check this out if it is true for us as well. I work ACC and haven´t been in the TWR for some years.
But I believe we don´t fill out any forms- as it would, in doubt, may cause the controller (or Pilot) to be reluctant to do the right thing because of paper work, interview etc.

I once remember a colleague who had somebody on short final and the a/c taking off was taking it´s time to get going. Finally the departing a/c got going- and the approaching a/c as not given a landing clearance yet said "XYZ 123 we are going around". In order not to have a "double decker" she said "XYZ123 Negative- You Land!!" - And they did!!
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1560
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 29):
Its too bad now that no pilot or controller has any privacy with all these frequencies streaming online.

Completely irrelevant. All ATC comms are recorded. Phone and radio.

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 29):
Safety was NEVER jeopardized.

Let's ask the Delta crew their opinion on that.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3376
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:21 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 41):
I must check this out if it is true for us as well. I work ACC and haven´t been in the TWR for some years.
But I believe we don´t fill out any forms- as it would, in doubt, may cause the controller (or Pilot) to be reluctant to do the right thing because of paper work, interview etc.

Paperwork is generally the last thing on our minds when making decisions that affect the safety of flight. It's silly to assume any crew would ignore safety because of the "burden" of paperwork. And making it a policy to not have to do paperwork because it may deter people from doing the right thing is equally as silly.

[Edited 2014-06-14 10:37:36]
 
egph
Posts: 231
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:54 am

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:27 pm

Very poor show from the controller there. I'm no pilot, and sorry for armchair piloting here but I'd imagine most pilots, as soon as they hear the words "Go around" will initiate the procedure. So even a quick joke like that will trigger most pilots into the procedure. Am I right?
 
2175301
Posts: 715
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:31 pm

I work in a different industry (Nuclear Power); and some things are never ever acceptable to say to the control operators in any form of a joke. While it will not get you fired; it will get you at least reassigned to other duties and more training.

This Controller should be immediately suspended and should not be working in an active control tower for a while. Period. This is not just a quick talking to.

While go-arounds are normal occurrences and can be executed safely; they do in fact decrease the factor of safety from a normal landing.

Have a great day,
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1560
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:35 pm

Quoting EGPH (Reply 44):
Very poor show from the controller there. I'm no pilot, and sorry for armchair piloting here but I'd imagine most pilots, as soon as they hear the words "Go around" will initiate the procedure. So even a quick joke like that will trigger most pilots into the procedure. Am I right?

You are.

Quoting 2175301 (Reply 45):

I work in a different industry (Nuclear Power); and some things are never ever acceptable to say to the control operators in any form of a joke. While it will not get you fired; it will get you at least reassigned to other duties and more training.

This Controller should be immediately suspended and should not be working in an active control tower for a while. Period. This is not just a quick talking to.

While go-arounds are normal occurrences and can be executed safely; they do in fact decrease the factor of safety from a normal landing.

     
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
peterjohns
Posts: 170
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:49 am

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 43):
Paperwork is generally the last thing on our minds when making decisions that affect the safety of flight. And making it a policy to not have to do paperwork because it may deter people from doing the right thing is equally as silly.

This is definately not true.
If you have to fear any kind of inquisition or reprimand in your work, you will try to avoid it. Fact.
So if you initiate a Go Around for any reason ( Pilot or Controller) and have to fill out forms and/or answer questions- you are more likely than not, to not issue that clearance and not do it. That in itself is a safety issue. As I have many years experience dealing with excactly things like that on ATC side, I believe to have a valid opinion.
The main issue for us is safety.
Now filling out forms for a TOGA is counter-productive from my point of view. I consider it a safety issue as it - when in doubt- contributes to making a unsafe decision rather then a safe one.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:56 pm

Quoting lhrnue (Reply 25):
Somebody made a mistake which lead to the execution of a safety procedure.

It's not a mistake. It's a bad decision. A mistake would be them honestly thinking that they had proper separation but then it turned out that they didn't and they had to send someone around. The decision to joke about a go-around was not an inadvertent error, it was an intentional act, and those need to be looked at more severely than honest mistakes.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
migair54
Posts: 2101
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: ATL Air Traffic Control "Joke" Forces Go Around

Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 41):

I must check this out if it is true for us as well. I work ACC and haven´t been in the TWR for some years.
But I believe we don´t fill out any forms- as it would, in doubt, may cause the controller (or Pilot) to be reluctant to do the right thing because of paper work, interview etc.

Paperwork is minimun, it's just a sheet where you state incidence (go around, bird strike, runway incursion.. thing like this) obviously in this case there's nothing to explain, Go around, reason: instructed by ATC, registration, time, weather and any comment if you want.... hardly 5 mins, in case of other reasons (more "pilot related"), unestable app, long landing, bounce landing, maybe you have to explain a bit more but that's all.

In my airline, MANDATORY, don't do and in a few days call from safety dept (because they'll get the report from ATC) and double the work, report + explanation for not doing inside the time window.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 42):

Let's ask the Delta crew their opinion on that.

I'm sure they're not very happy about that.

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