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KarelXWB
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ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:57 pm

ANA revealed its 787-9 cabin layout for domestic usage, consisting of 18 Premium and 377 Economy seats (395 total). First delivery is set for July 27, the jet will enter revenue service on August 4.

The airline adds that the 787-9 fuel economy is "superior" to that of the -8, and 23% better than the 767-300ER. This, coupled with 20% more seating and better cargo capacity, will help cut operating costs.

Cabin layouts for regional and international routes are still unknown.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtSyHVGCEAEUHtM.png:large

Sources:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...mmercial-operator-of-787-9-401963/
http://www.ausbt.com.au/ana-boeing-7...-dreamliner-inaugural-first-flight
http://twitter.com/airlineroute/status/492203840234471426

[Edited 2014-07-25 07:36:45]
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Stitch
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:01 pm

Very close to their 777-200 domestic configuration (which is 21 P / 384Y).

[Edited 2014-07-25 07:02:42]
 
jetblue1965
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:03 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):

The airline adds that the 787-9 fuel economy is "superior" to that of the -8, and 23% better than the 767-300ER. This, coupled with 20% more seating and better cargo capacity, will help cut operating costs.

The 787-9 (domestics) is more a replacement of 777-200A planes than the 763 (which is replaced by 787-8).

But once more flat-bed confg'ed 787-8 and 787-9 arrive, I fully expect HND-YVR to go 787.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:35 pm

You mean 377 Economy, not 337.

I also find it amazing/impressive that there is only the one rear galley for all those economy passengers. Although if this plane is intended to be used domestically, I guess they only need room for lots and lots of drinks (and not food).
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:41 pm

That's a lot of people in that plane! What is the pitch?

What is the longest domestic flight ANA flies?
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:56 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 2):
The 787-9 (domestics) is more a replacement of 777-200A planes than the 763 (which is replaced by 787-8).

I have no idea why they compare it to the 763. Still, those numbers are interesting: ANA claims the 787-8 is 17% more fuel efficient than the 763 om domestic routes while the 787-9 lands at 23%, a 6% difference! Though not sure if they are talking about block fuel burn or fuel cost per seat.
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:04 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
Though not sure if they are talking about block fuel burn or fuel cost per seat.

Has to be per seat due to the short stage lengths involved.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:05 pm

395 in a 787-9?  Wow!   
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:06 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 4):
That's a lot of people in that plane! What is the pitch?

An awful lot of people...

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
ANA claims the 787-8 is 17% more fuel efficient than the 763 om domestic routes while the 787-9 lands at 23%, a 6% difference! Though not sure if they are talking about block fuel burn or fuel cost per seat.

Must be seat mile costs, I can't see the 789 being 6% better than the 788 on a block fuel basis.
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:08 pm

For regional usage, the MTOW is (paper) de-rated to 226 tons (standard is 253 tons).

http://www.ana.co.jp/dom/inflight/seatmap/789/

[Edited 2014-07-25 08:09:17]
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:33 pm

I wonder if they will order any -10s... extrapolating the seat capacity jump from 788 domestic to 789 domestic (taking the fuselage extensions as the base for the calculation); they would get to roughly 450 seats.
That is still much (64 seats) less than they have on their domestic 773s, but it would be in line with the Japanese trend to downsize domestic widebodies by one notch to trim capacity and optimize yields.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:41 pm

This is the aircraft that did test flights in Curacao. I've heard how many total seats it holds when it was here, amazing. I'm glad to have seen this aircraft and good luck to NH  

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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:41 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 10):
I wonder if they will order any -10s

I'm not sure. They ordered 14 more 787-9 beginning this year. Also:

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 10):
they would get to roughly 450 seats

The exit limit is 440 pax.
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:44 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 4):
That's a lot of people in that plane! What is the pitch?

From what I know, NH's pitch on domestic Y class is nothing different from international Y class. I think there's just slightly less legroom. Also, if u look at the diagram, there is only a small biz class section. NH's international fleet has 3 classes.
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:55 pm

looks like only 5 lavs...go before you board or hold?
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:57 pm

From the looks of it, the international 2 class B789 would seat 30J (2-2-2) + 261Y (3-3-3) so 291 seats in total.

Does anyone know if some B789s will have a 3 class configuration (J/Y+/Y) for the long haul flights? If so I hope they dont have 70J class seats on board like they current do have on their B772ERs as it seems too much. I would think having 48J (flat bed seats) for the B789 is more than enough for a vast majority of the currently operated long haul B772ER routes of NH.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting hiflyer (Reply 14):
go before you board or hold?

Line up and wait.......  
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:00 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):
The exit limit is 440 pax.

AH, didn't consider. Slightly less attractive then, but still 45 more seats... I think we might very well see a 78J order some day from ANA.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
ANA claims the 787-8 is 17% more fuel efficient than the 763 om domestic routes

- I thought I ready somewhere, on this forum recently, that JAL said their 763's with winglets hold their own vs a 788 on their domestic routes., if so, this is pretty interesting that NH claim the opposite.
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
From what I know, NH's pitch on domestic Y class is nothing different from international Y class. I think there's just slightly less legroom. Also, if u look at the diagram, there is only a small biz class section. NH's international fleet has 3 classes.

I thought ANA had 30-31 inch pitch domestic and closer to 34 inches on their long haul fleets. At least that is what seatguru says.

Quoting hiflyer (Reply 14):
looks like only 5 lavs...go before you board or hold?

The longest domestic routes in Japan are about 1 hour 45 minutes. Most are 1 hour - 1 hour 15 minute. The shorter the flight, the lower the lav usage usualy is.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
395 in a 787-9? Wow!

Welcome to domestic flying in Japan. Somehow they still load and unload one of those planes quicker than a US airline can load a 737.
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:12 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 16):
Quoting hiflyer (Reply 14):go before you board or hold?
Line up and wait.......

The average sector is an hour or less.
Is there a need for more lavatories?
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 18):
- I thought I ready somewhere, on this forum recently, that JAL said their 763's with winglets hold their own vs a 788 on their domestic routes., if so, this is pretty interesting that NH claim the opposite.

Well, JAL's 787s have 8-abreast Y so their cost per seat is higher than other 787 operators.
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:28 pm

I thought Japanese carriers have mostly premium heavy configs. Now-a-days Jetstar is role model for packing people.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
395 in a 787-9?

With effectively the same cabin length of the 777-200 family, other than .8" narrower seat width in Economy, it should be no different than a domestic 777-200 flight. It will actually be a bit nicer in Premium Class, since it's 2+2+2 vs. 2+3+2.



Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 22):
I thought Japanese carriers have mostly premium heavy configs.

They do for their international long-haul flights. This is a domestic "shuttle" configuration.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:34 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 18):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
ANA claims the 787-8 is 17% more fuel efficient than the 763 om domestic routes

- I thought I ready somewhere, on this forum recently, that JAL said their 763's with winglets hold their own vs a 788 on their domestic routes., if so, this is pretty interesting that NH claim the opposite.

JAL does not have a domestic configured 787. The highest seat count 787 for JAL is 186 seats with a large business class cabin. JAL´s domestic 767 has 261 seats and the long haul version even has 232 seats. Given how low density the 787 is for JAL, I would have expected the numbers to be worse for the 787 on a domestic route than a 767.

NH having the opposite numbers since they operate high density domestic 787 and high density domestic 270 seat 767s are a lot more realistic.
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:42 pm

ANA has already done this with their 787-8's which are now 335 seat configurations on "78P" 787-8's.
http://www.ana.co.jp/wws/japan/e/local/dom/airinfo/aircraft/

ANA's 773 can do 514 seat configuration
http://milepoint.com/forums/threads/ana-787-seat-maps.16879/
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Very close to their 777-200 domestic configuration (which is 21 P / 384Y).

Seems to me that they should have just waited for the 787-10. It's optimized for shorter routes. And they'd likely get 450 pax in there.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 26):
Seems to me that they should have just waited for the 787-10.

The -10 doesn't EIS for another 4 years though. ANA doesn't have any -10's on orders either and they've committed to 29 more 787-9's.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:32 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
The airline adds that the 787-9 fuel economy is "superior" to that of the -8, and 23% better than the 767-300ER.

I would have expected it to be much greater that 23%, with 40%+ more seats.
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Stitch
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:28 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 26):
Seems to me that they should have just waited for the 787-10. It's optimized for shorter routes. And they'd likely get 450 pax in there.

At the time they placed their order, the 787-10 was not even a concept.  

Also, the 787-10 should have the same Exit Limit as the 787-9 (up to 440) as it will also have four Type A exit doors.



Quoting zeke (Reply 28):
I would have expected it to be much greater that 23%, with 40%+ more seats.

The 787-10 is significantly heavier than the 767-300ER (north of 37% per the data Aspire Aviation says they have from Boeing for a 360-seat Revision E 787-10 airframe).

[Edited 2014-07-25 13:35:10]
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:33 pm

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 3):
I also find it amazing/impressive that there is only the one rear galley for all those economy passengers.

I lived in Japan for six years and did many domestic flights. Nothing happens. You take off and you land. Who needs a galley?

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 22):
I thought Japanese carriers have mostly premium heavy configs.

Not for domestic flights that aren't often much longer than an hour.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:09 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 4):
What is the longest domestic flight ANA flies?

That would probably be HND-OKA at about 2hrs and 30 mins.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
395 in a 787-9?  

Not that it wasn't expected... They had planned on doing this a long time ago:

JAL And ANA Domestic 777 Retirements (by na Aug 28 2012 in Civil Aviation)

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...a-converts-15-787-8s-to-9s-347965/
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georgiaame
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:13 pm

4 toilets for 379 economy passengers? OUCH! Is Ryan Air a part owner?
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karadion
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:26 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 32):

4 toilets for 379 economy passengers? OUCH! Is Ryan Air a part owner?

These domestic flights lasts less than an hour. If someone really has to go, they can wait until they land as well. They have a 514 PAX version for a 773 in their fleet.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:43 pm

Why did Boeing bother to market 3-2-3 and 2-4-2 knowing most customers would opt for 3-3-3?

Within Japan is there not strong competition from railways for short +/- one hour flights? Does the traveler save that much time flying vs rail, considering all door-to-door activities?
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:50 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 34):
Why did Boeing bother to market 3-2-3 and 2-4-2 knowing most customers would opt for 3-3-3?

Since the launch of the 787, fuel prices have doubled or even trebled (depending on the month and year).
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
395 in a 787-9?

Given a maximum route of 3-3.5 hours, that's not horrible.
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Ruscoe
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:10 am

Percentages are so difficult to interpret
Can someone express these fuel savings in terms of total fuel flow per hour
comparing 788 and 789 and even compare with 359 with same pax

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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:03 am

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 3):
I also find it amazing/impressive that there is only the one rear galley for all those economy passengers. Although if this plane is intended to be used domestically, I guess they only need room for lots and lots of drinks (and not food).

Look at NH (and JL) seat maps for all their high-density aircraft used on domestic routes. They all have similar configurations with very small galleys and far fewer lavatories to create room for more seats.

Quoting hiflyer (Reply 14):
looks like only 5 lavs...go before you board or hold?

On most flights, the lavatories are probably rarely used. I don't think I've ever used a lavatory on a 1 to 2 hour flight, and rarely on flights up to about 5 or 6 hours.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 22):
I thought Japanese carriers have mostly premium heavy configs. Now-a-days Jetstar is role model for packing people.

Japanese carriers are the model for the highest-density configurations which have been used for many years on their domestic fleets. Their 747SRs had well over 500 seats, and their current domestic 777-300s are also over 500 seats.

Quoting questions (Reply 34):
Why did Boeing bother to market 3-2-3 and 2-4-2 knowing most customers would opt for 3-3-3?

JAL seems to like 2-4-2. They're the only 787 customer with 2-4-2 on their entire 787 fleet. They would certainly be my first choice of carrier on a route with more than one 787 operator. NH has 2-4-2 on a small number of their early deliveries but believe they're now moving to 9-abreast. NH has 4 or 5 different configurations on their current 787s.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:10 am

Quoting questions (Reply 34):
Within Japan is there not strong competition from railways for short +/- one hour flights? Does the traveler save that much time flying vs rail, considering all door-to-door activities?

The high-speed rail does not go everywhere. Yes, there are rail service to many of the locations but some may take over 8 hours from Tokyo versus 1.5 on a plane.

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 18):
the jet will enter revenue service on August 4

That August 4 flight is a one-off special event flight. The first actual revenue flight is planned for September.
NH has yet to announce its September schedule.
 
trent1000
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:15 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 19):
The longest domestic routes in Japan are about 1 hour 45 minutes.


[Edited 2014-07-25 18:23:02]

According to NH timetable:
FUK/CTS 2 hrs 20 min
HND/OKA 2 hrs 30 min
CTS/OKA 3 hrs 40 min


[Edited 2014-07-25 18:25:52]
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting Karadion (Reply 33):
These domestic flights lasts less than an hour.

I date myself, really, really date myself, but I remember when the original 737s were being touted as city hoppers, for flights under 1 hour. Very fitting that Lufthansa was the initial customer, for domestic German routes. If I'm not mistaken, 737s did the JFK-Albany NY trip, as well as Buffalo. And here we are, 45 years later, with a state of the art, ultra long range machine reverting back to 1 hour runs. Just seems ironic to me.
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 19):
The longest domestic routes in Japan are about 1 hour 45 minutes. Most are 1 hour - 1 hour 15 minute. The shorter the flight, the lower the lav usage usualy is.

Are any used for regional flights? Not far, but perhaps out to:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
Given a maximum route of 3-3.5 hours, that's not horrible.

That would be about the limit.


I could see EK emulating this, they would just add another galley and a few more lavoratories. Perhaps 1" more pitch?


Quoting georgiaame (Reply 41):
And here we are, 45 years later, with a state of the art, ultra long range machine reverting back to 1 hour runs. Just seems ironic to me.

We talk about this here on a.net as this isn't common. Heck, we find it odd enough how the ME3 use widebodies for regional flights.    But the Japanese take high density widebodies to a whole new level...


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Carpethead
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:45 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 42):
But the Japanese take high density widebodies to a whole new level...

Well, we have been doing it for close to 40 years since the 747SR. No other market in the world comes close but the Chinese are quickly catching up though in certain markets.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:50 am

Quoting 7673mech (Reply 20):
Is there a need for more lavatories?

I am sure both NH & JL do their homework and take note of utilization of lavatories on domestic flights.
Personnally, like most other Japanese travellers, we do go before and after the flight. Even when I did have to use the lavatory, there were usually no lines.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:14 am

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 41):
I remember when the original 737s were being touted as city hoppers, for flights under 1 hour. Very fitting that Lufthansa was the initial customer, for domestic German routes. If I'm not mistaken, 737s did the JFK-Albany NY trip, as well as Buffalo. And here we are, 45 years later, with a state of the art, ultra long range machine reverting back to 1 hour runs. Just seems ironic to me.

And on the other side of that coin we now have 737s doing year round SEA/LAX/SAN-HNL, and various others of that length. Never mind the MAXs that will be able to do Northeast USa - WE year round. Yes, we are getting to the point where we can use anything for anything indeed.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 42):
Heck, we find it odd enough how the ME3 use widebodies for regional flights.  

We do, but we shouldn't. My 1st 388 ride was blocked at about 6hrs (DXB - BKK), and yes that's regional alright, but it's no less that the DC-10, L1011 & 747 runs that were once very common across the lower 48. I like to think this is all symptomatic of wide bodies slowly regaing some attractiveness on domestic regional routes rather than an aberration.
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:34 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):
The exit limit is 440 pax.
Quoting ytz (Reply 26):
Seems to me that they should have just waited for the 787-10. It's optimized for shorter routes. And they'd likely get 450 pax in there.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
Also, the 787-10 should have the same Exit Limit as the 787-9 (up to 440) as it will also have four Type A exit doors.

Why only 440 seats? Wouldn't Boeing want to make sure airlines could utilize the extra length of the 787-10 over the -9 and -8?

According to Boeing's stats of the 787-10 vs. the -8, it should be able to hold 33% more seats than a -8. Take the max capacity of the -8 and multiply it by 1.33 (so 381 x 1.33), and you get roughly 507 seats as the max cap of the -10 (506.73 to be more precise). It also states that the -10 holds 15% more pax than the -9, and by doing the same calculation as I did above, you get 506 seats (440 x 1.15).
http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/787family/787-10prod.page

Please correct me if these calculations are wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me why Boeing wouldn't take advantage of another 66 seats on a stretch. Does it help them in anyway not to take advantage of the said extra capacity of the -10, like for marketing reasons or something?

Please don't bash me on this, but if someone could explain this to me, that would be great. Also, 395 seats is pretty impressive, can't wait to see if another -9 airline puts more on (i.e. 400+ seats).

bw50505
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting bw50505 (Reply 46):

Its because the 787 only has 4 pairs of type A doors. 1 pair allows for 110 pax, therefore 4 pairs equals 440. To get above that another pair of doors would have to be added. Doors also add weight to the airframe.

Quoting bw50505 (Reply 46):
According to Boeing's stats of the 787-10 vs. the -8, it should be able to hold 33% more seats than a -8.

*In a typical 3 class configuration, not max configuration.
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Stitch
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:47 am

Quoting bw50505 (Reply 46):
Why only 440 seats? Wouldn't Boeing want to make sure airlines could utilize the extra length of the 787-10 over the -9 and -8?

It's not necessary as even in a single-class you would max out around 470 seats and omitting the fifth set of doors saves around 500 kilograms in weight.
 
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RE: ANA Reveals First 787-9 Layout: 395 Seats

Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:06 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 19):
I thought ANA had 30-31 inch pitch domestic and closer to 34 inches on their long haul fleets. At least that is what seatguru says.

For someone like me who has zero ass, it's quite hard to tell   

Also some of the international fleet is used occasionally on domestic flights.
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