Trvlr
Topic Author
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Fri Nov 17, 2000 1:58 pm

Saddam Accepts Gift of Boeing 747

By WAIEL FALEH, Associated Press Writer
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Iraq has increased its small domestic airline fleet by one more plane, thanks to the gift Thursday of a Boeing 747 from the president of a Persian Gulf regional airline.

Sheik Hamad bin Ali Al Thani of the carrier Air Gulf Falcon presented the white plane with blue stripes in a ceremony at Saddam International Airport.

"The present expresses my solidarity with the Iraqi people and President Saddam Hussein," Sheik Hamad said. "There is no political significance to the gift. ... It only reflects my true love for Iraq and its wise leadership."

President Saddam Hussein said the plane would be used by the state-run Iraqi Airways.

Sheik Hamad, a Qatari who also founded his own country's national carrier Qatar Airways in 1994, formed Air Gulf Falcon in the United Arab Emirates in 1999.

Iraq's fleet of 15 Boeing airliners was flown out to Jordan, Iran and Tunisia to escape bombing during the 1991 Gulf War and it has not been able to retrieve them.

Iraq used old Russian-made military cargo planes when it resumed domestic flights earlier this month.

The resumption of domestic flights followed the arrival in Baghdad of dozens of international flights from non-governmental organizations and foreign countries seeking an end to U.N. sanctions imposed to punish Iraq for invading Kuwait in 1990.
---------
Aaron G.

Saddam's Plane (An Ex-Mandarin Airlines jet as well):



 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Fri Nov 17, 2000 2:07 pm

Maybe within afew years Iraqi can get back a small portion of it's 727-200s and their 747-200s from the countries they stored them in and use it on thier domestic service. Maybe Airbus will give Iraqi a pretty good deal on their aircraft. I predict Iraqi will be able to fly to the countries that don't support the sanctions against the Iraqi people within a few years. But it will be a very very long time before Iraqi makes trips to destinations such as LHR and JFK as they did in the 1980s.
"FUIMUS"
 
hkgspotter1
Posts: 5750
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:43 pm

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Fri Nov 17, 2000 2:23 pm

A mandarin 747SP in Iraqi !!!, NICE.
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Fri Nov 17, 2000 3:04 pm

"There is no political significance to the gift. ... It only reflects my true love for Iraq and its wise leadership."

Saddam Hussein is the closest thing to the incarnation of evil to curse the earth since Attila the Hun 1,550 years ago. (406 AD to 453 AD.) I would have said since Adolf Hitler, but Hitler didn't rape Iraqi brides.

Hussein is a narcissistic sociopath who has gassed even his own citizens, mostly children and their mothers. And has had hundreds of thousands of civilians murdered in the 20 years of his reign of terror. Not to mention the millions he sent to their deaths during the Iran/Iraq war.

His blood lust is almost as bad as his lust for vainglory.
He has had the inscription, in arabic, "Built in the era of Saddam Hussein" chiseled on just about every public edifice he could find. Not surprisingly the airport is named Saddam International, after himself, of course.

The only reason he has not been overthrown is that he regulary purges his military ranks by executing hundreds of officers at a time to diminish the chances of a successful coup being planned.

Several years ago, two close members of his immediate royal family risked death by fleeing across the Iraqi desert to escape him. Saddam later guaranteed their safety should they return of their own free will. Amazingly, they returned to Iraq. They were summarily tortured and executed.

He and another member of his family routinely have had women taken from the streets of Baghdad for their own sexual pleasures. Afterwards, some of the women commit suicide. After being raped, they are considered untouchable in their society. Especially to their husbands and fiances.

Why is it that evil men get 747s as gifts?

Hmmmm...


An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
Amir
Posts: 1224
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 8:56 pm

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Fri Nov 17, 2000 4:53 pm


Hope to see the bird in the colors of Iraqi Airways soon.

Rgds
Amir

 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Fri Nov 17, 2000 5:50 pm

Mark, I entirely agree. Saddam Hussein deserves nothing but hardship and pain. He is indeed, evil, cruel, paraoid, and dangerous. Shame on Sheik Hamad for this gift and shame on all those who lend credibility to his murderous regime.

While, the Arabs are all exercising their "solidarity" against Israel, they have let a disgusting murderous tyrant into their midst. It pains me to read this news.
 
Amir
Posts: 1224
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 8:56 pm

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Fri Nov 17, 2000 6:44 pm

Hi Folks,
of course Saddam is know for what he is. But when you have lived in the middleeast you will understand that there are games played behine the seen.
so a gift might not always be as a gift!

Anyhow i hope the birds end up on schedule flights, though i doubt they will even fly it in black figures.

Rgds
Amir


 
Boeing727
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 1:32 am

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Fri Nov 17, 2000 9:37 pm

Hmmmm... and TWAneedsNOhelp well said, there is nothing I can add only that I share the same feelings towards this dictator. It should be a sad day for aviation enthusiast, this awesome aircraft in the hands of this miserable regime...sad sad...

Boeing727
 
airlinefreak1
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2000 5:13 pm

Attention All

Fri Nov 17, 2000 10:00 pm

i do agree with all of you , i think saddam is worse than hitler , he has harmed millions of people , and destroyed a country , that was once , a rich and peaceful country with a great history .
He has destroyed ALL the historical places and built 20 places instead in the past 10 years,responsible for the death of million kids , destroyed homes , created poverty , rapped thousands of women .
it was him and his son who is used to pick women(19-20 years old) from the streets of baghdad and rape them , and keep them in their palaces for 3 months raping them everyday . this is really sad and disturbing.
The 747SP is a gift , but the aim of this present was to help the iraqi people , and he also wanted to improve relations with iraq for OIL .
i hope iraqi airways comes back agian with new planes (airbuses) with the same routed , including brazil-
rio dejanero , tokyo , africa and russia etc.... although it will Take a LONG time to fly to JFK and LHR .....its sad .

"While, the Arabs are all exercising their "solidarity" against Israel, they have let a disgusting murderous tyrant into their midst"

arabs can NOT foght iraq because they r also considered to be arabs , in other words , they are brothers , so fighting them is wrong .
 
shankly
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 10:42 pm

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Fri Nov 17, 2000 10:28 pm

Remember the big green Iraqi jets at LHR in the 70's and 80's and occaisonally the odd Il76 at STN. But Saddam aside, lets hope this is a good start for the Iraqi people. 747SP on internal flights. Certainly beats a 737 for me!

One suspects when Iraq finally re-enters world politics, Airbus will snap up the small order.
L1011 - P F M
 
na
Posts: 9160
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Fri Nov 17, 2000 11:12 pm

I hope this aircraft is a kind of Trojan Horse for Saddam...

Its sad that this Arab Hitler ruined is whole country and that no one can help his poor people without somehow bribe this ash... before.
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 2:11 am

::::::::arabs can NOT foght iraq because they r also considered to be arabs , in other words , they are brothers , so fighting them is wrong.:::::::::::

Who read you the party line? APPEASING such a villain as Saddam Hussein (whose deeds thankfully do not go unknown by the world) just because of his ethnicity is WRONG, anyway about it.

Pol Pot was a Cambodian, but when his enemies finnaly surmounted enough strength to rid their country of this Hussein/Hitler type dictator, that he was of the same race as them meant nothing. Don't blind yourself because of ethnicity and race. It is this type of thought that creates conflict.

Also, did Saddam consider Kuwaitis his "Arab brothers" when he ruthlessly invaded their country, denied them their civil rights, attempted to pillaged their wealth, and steal their oil?

Your telling me this type of behaviour is referred to as "Arab Solidarity"?

Disturbing
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 2:38 am

I can see this is going to get into a political-based thread, so I will say this:

If the Great Britain and America say they are right in keeping these illegal sanctions against Iraq (because of him killing and maiming thousands of mainly Kurdish Iraqis), then why isn't the same action been taken against Turkey which has a longer and more bloody history of the killing of Kurds. Wouldn't have anything to do with Turkey being in NATO?

I also have to say that it is the western nations, in particular America which have given Saddam the ability which he has had over the last few years, arming him to the teeth in his country's war with Iran; "the less of two evils"?

I am trying to find the site which sets out the UN resolution for sanctions against Iraq, and nowhere in there does it give authority for Great Britain and America to ban civil passenger flights in and out of Iraq. Mark my words, once Aeroflot and Vnukovo Airlines start flying to Baghdad, Iraqi Airways will begin reciprocal flights to Moscow, and I would not be one bit surprised if flights to Paris and Beijing were started in the not too distant future either.

But I feel that Al Thani donating this 74L to Iraqi Airways is a smart business move, because when IA starts flights up again they are going to need aircraft, and they won't have the money to buy any, so ACMI leasing would be the best bet for them; this being Air Gulf Falcon's core business. Unless Iraqi Airways is intent on TriStars in which case Celtic European will be getting a call from them. 
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 2:46 am

I think Sadamm should sling his hook and go to hell.

ALthough I do like the idea of having an Iraqi Airways jet at LHR and JFK. Quite funny  
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 2:48 am

Unfortunately, Scott, I think that Sheikh Al-Thani's product support from Boeing has just gone out the window - a bit unfortunate really, as he only has Boeings in his fleet!   

You're absolutely right about the 'sanctions' - though, it was a unilateral US imposed decision to "help" the Kurds. As the US aircraft tend to zap anything that gets above ground level, it's simply a case of prudence on the Iraqui part not to fly.

Added to that, the Iraqi Airways fleet has been 'commandeered' by the Iranians, who are only prepared to hand them back if the Iraquis pay something like US$1m per year per aircraft in parking fees.

And I though EGLL was expensive!   
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 2:54 am

Howdy Neil

Actually there is only the one Iraqi Airways aircraft in Tehran. The rest are in Amman and Tozeur (Tunisia). This is according to JP2000/01.

But what does Al Thani need product support for? He has his aircraft registered in Swaziland and Equatorial Guinea. Not exactly the most safety driven countries in the world when it comes to who can register aircraft there 
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 3:18 am

Disgusting that a 747 would end up in the hands of Saddam Insane. Next thing we know, it'll be packed with with explosive and crashed into the White House.

IMO, the US needs to send terrorist groups to Iraq to wrest the dictator from power. Lacking that, use a simple A-bomb.


Corey777
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 3:46 am

It's pretty obvious that the sanctions are not working in Iraq, the rich have continued to get richer, the poor just suffer. Saddam uses this suffering to boost his power, pretty much the same as Castro. The US had the power and AFAIK the opportunity to remove Saddam during 1991, why did'nt they?

At this stage there is no justification for continuing the sanctions. Its time to bring them back in to the world community.





 
aerosol
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:31 pm

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 4:46 am

Where do they get the spare parts from?
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 5:30 am

Hey,
This topic has run out of hand and turned
political again???
The wisest response I read so far was from
Brissie Lions.
Everyone has been talking about a dictator
and a new Hitler and all that crap...
Sure saddam is a dictator, but which country
in the "middle east" doesn't have one?? Israel
probably...? Oh yes, but they're only good
to you if you are Jewish. We in the west have
supported all of them including Saddam. Why
is Saddam still there? Are we all waiting on him
to commit suicide as Hitler supposedly did?
Lets bring the topic back to where it should
and better think before throwing any meaningless
angry remarks.
Kindest regads to ye'all.
Advancedkid
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 7:05 am

Advancedkid, your about as advanced as a kindergartener on coke.

You say the topic has been "run out of hand", (whatever that means), but than continue it by making an uncalled for and unprovoked attack on Israel. Any reason? You finnish your erudite little commentary with "Lets bring the topic back to where it should (be)." Could you be any more vague?

"run out of hand" Is that english?
 
meister808
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2000 11:45 am

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 7:27 am

I would have to agree w/everyone who thinks that whomever said that it wasn't political was stupid.

Let's see... what was the registration on that plane...?
I'll see if i can get it so that I know which SP to blow out of the sky...

J/K

-meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE:(meister808) Air Gulf Falcon A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 2:16 pm

Hey Meister,
Would you blow up this 747 even if you are
not sure whether it has innocent passengers
onboard??
Ever gave a thought Herr Meister??
Regards,
Advancedkid
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 2:40 pm

Well AdvancedKid.

The answer to your question might just depend on whether Meister was a crew member on the Vincennes which blew the Iran Air Airbus out of the sky.

If he was a crew member, I don't see him having any problem with blowing an innocent civilian airliner down.
 
DeltaSFO
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 2:51 pm

Oh God.... who brought up the Vincennes? Talk about pulling frickin' skeletons out of the closet.

Anyway.... it's too bad to see such a nice machine fall into enemy hands. Ceilidh is probably right about Sheik Al-Thani losing his product support from Boeing, which probably means Saddam will have to look pretty hard for spare parts... so it's not all rosy for him.

DeltaSFO
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sat Nov 18, 2000 3:02 pm

Is he going to set it on fire and chant anti-american slangs???
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon/Spare Parts

Sat Nov 18, 2000 10:54 pm

RE. where they are going to get their spare parts from...

The US government does allow Boeing to sell spare parts for civilian airliners to "hostile" governments, although I believe these sales have to be approved at congressional level.

Earlier this year (or was it late last year) they approved a large B747 spares shipment to Iran Air.
I believe that some of Iran Air's maintenance is done in Germany, anyway.
The motivation is that it is nobody's interests to see innocent civilians crashing to their deaths in aircraft that fall out of the sky due to enforced lack of maintenance.

So, I doubt that Boeing will withdraw its product support of Gulf Falcon over this incident, although US government pressure may cause them to have to account for their spares sales to that operator.
 
ryanair
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 1999 1:41 am

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sun Nov 19, 2000 1:18 am

I wouldn't have thought a little outfit like Air Gulf Falcon would be dealing with Boeing, probably some dodgy little outfit, selling wrecks parts and such like on the cheap. There's hardly a shortage of expertise with 747's and 707's so no need to run to Boeing there. I should guess the reason this Sheik is giving away old planes, is the same reason half the world (especially the UK's dear a+1ehole Robin Cook ) is now courting Gadaffi, contracts. Giving away planes to such a government, well Air Gulf won't be winning many outside friends including me. Does anybody know if he's still involved with Qatar? They're a good airline.

It's kind of funny you can talk about Adolf, who self expired over fifty years ago, but the Vincennes twelve years ago, christ why bring up the past?

Speaking of christ, well OK not exactly fair, if Muslims and Jews want to slug it out, take it outside. This is an aviation forum. (Should any readers not understand part/s of the above paragraph, I shall be happy to provide a detailed explanation upon request).
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sun Nov 19, 2000 7:58 am

The issue of Saddam that I brought up at the beginning is outside of any political issue in the world today. My disgust was not political. I don't care about Iraq. I don't care about Middle East politics. And I don't care about religion.

Simply, there are no words in my vocabulary to do justice to the description of the man known as Saddam Hussein. Candidly, people who have lived in Iraq will concur that he is the personification of Evil. Not because of anything his small country may have done. Only because of what he, himself, has done. And I don't use the word Evil lightly.

Hmmmm...
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
fanofjets
Posts: 1978
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 2:26 am

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sun Nov 19, 2000 11:35 am

Political views are not at all off topic - the gift of an aircraft was a gesture of homage to "the wise leader" of Iraq. Sheik Hamad is honoring an evil dictator, a wicked human being, a menace to his own people and the world at large. Whatever view one may have of the US sanctions against his country (mine are mixed), there is no denying Mr. Hussein's crimes against humanity.

That said, I must speak out against comparing Hussein with Hitler. Both men were personifications of evil and were responsible for the murder of millions of people, but that is where the similarity ends. The Holocaust of World War 2 stands alone, an event unlike any other. I, for one, will never forgive President Bush for making that comparison in 1991 to advance his own agenda. Use whatever adjectives you may in describing Saddam Hussein and the atrocities he perpetuated, but let's leave out the comparisons with Hitler.
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

This Is Not Iraq's First 747SP

Sun Nov 19, 2000 11:38 am

The Iraqi government has another 747SP
in their stable. This original one had been directly purchased from Boeing in 1976 and been used only by
Saddam and/or his government. Iraqi Airways (pre-Gulf war 2nd) passenger fleet consisted of Boeings 737s,
727s, 707s and 747s all purchased new and directly from
Boeing with the US government (more than) aproval.
That's the civilan part. If any of you likes digging deeper, you would also easily find that most
of his weapons of "mass destruction" was also supplied by the west including the US under "the turn a blind eye act".

Regards,
Advancedkid
 
ronen
Posts: 314
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 1999 9:08 pm

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sun Nov 19, 2000 6:29 pm

sadam has killed more arabs in the 20th century then any other head of state.
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sun Nov 19, 2000 7:21 pm

How about the US and other countries? Are they so undoubtedly kind and helping the world? Is there any difference in killing by signing a paper or pulling a trigger?
For example: US could never join the European Union (no reason why the should   it's just theoretical) because of the death penalty - which is from the Stone Age. To have people waiting for their execution (which should be called murder) is mental torture.
Starting a war in Vietnam to "save" the world from communism, drop bombs and rape the civilian population!? Tell me what that is...

I don't want to make an accusation against s.b. but unfortunately there is evil all around in the world (no matter what country). I hate Saddam too because of what he have done, but I don't see why he shouldn't have any Boeing 747's. After all, he have had relationship with the US - they (CIA or whatever) helped him to gain control. Of course they couldn't know that he should be such a cruel dictator...

So - what is the difference if Saddam flies American or Russian aircrafts!?
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sun Nov 19, 2000 8:55 pm

Today, large numbers of Iraqi civilians are dying every day from shortages of food and medicine. They cannot afford them, because we are blockading their export of oil, while paying through the nose for gasoline at the pumps. Madness. The USS COLE was enroute to enforce this blackade, BTW.

The Kuwait oil barons, actually the Seven Sisters of the oil cartel, were using a method of sucking oil from Iraqui fields called diagonal drilling.

Hussein discovered this, and went to our Amabssador, April Glaspie, to determine what the action of the USA, if any, would be, to an invasion of Kuwait to stop this theft. He made similar visits to other ambassadors, with the same question. Gkaspie gave him the green light. Go ahead, Sadam. Well do nothing.

This story was covered later after we had devestaded the country, in a few major newspapers, including the NYT, WSJ, Washing Post, and Washing Times, but the damage had bee done. Here is an interview with Glaspie, taped and published on the net:



Transcript of Meeting Between Iraqi President, Saddam Hussein and U.S.
Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie on July 25, 1990 (Eight days before the
August 2, 1990 Iraqi Invasion of Kuwait). This is the infamous meeting
where our ambassador gives Saddam the green light to invade Kuwait
Saddam-Glaspie meeting

Transcript of Meeting Between Iraqi President, Saddam Hussein and
U.S. Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie. - July 25, 1990 (Eight days before
the
August 2, 1990 Iraqi Invasion of Kuwait).

July 25, 1990 - Presidential Palace - Baghdad

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie -

I have direct instructions from President Bush to improve our
relations with Iraq. We have considerable sympathy for your quest for
higher
oil prices, the immediate cause of your confrontation with Kuwait. (pause)
As
you know, I lived here for years and admire your extraordinary efforts to
rebuild your country. We know you need funds. We understand that, and
our
opinion is that you should have the opportunity to rebuild your country.
(pause) We can see that you have deployed massive numbers of troops in
the
south. Normally that would be none of our business, but when this
happens
in the context of your threats against Kuwait, then it would be reasonable
for
us to be concerned. For this reason, I have received an instruction to ask
you, in the spirit of friendship - not confrontation - regarding your
intentions: Why are your troops massed so very close to Kuwait's
borders?

Saddam Hussein -

As you know, for years now I have made every effort to reach a
settlement on our dispute with Kuwait. There is to be a meeting in two
days;
I am prepared to give negotiations only this one more brief chance.
(pause)
When we (the Iraqis) meet (with the Kuwaitis) and we see there is hope,
then nothing will happen. But if we are unable to find a solution, then it
will
be natural that Iraq will not accept death.

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie -

What solutions would be acceptable?

Saddam Hussein -

If we could keep the whole of the Shatt al Arab - our strategic goal in
our war with Iran - we will make concessions (to the Kuwaitis). But, if we
are
forced to choose between keeping half of the Shatt and the whole of Iraq
(i.e., in SaddamÕs view, including Kuwait) then we will give up all of the
Shatt
to defend our claims on Kuwait to keep the whole of Iraq in the shape we
wish it to be. (pause) What is the United States' opinion on this?

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie -

We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute
with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to
emphasize
the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is
not
associated with America. (Saddam smiles)

On August 2, 1990 four days later, Saddam's massed troops invade and
occupy Kuwait.

*******************************************************

Baghdad, September 2, 1990, U.S. Embassy

One month later, British journalist obtain the the above tape and
transcript of the Saddam - Glaspie meeting of July 29, 1990. Astounded,
they confront Ms. Glaspie as she leaves the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad.

Journalist 1 -

Are the transcripts (holding them up) correct, Madam Ambassador?

(Ambassador Glaspie does not respond)

Journalist 2 -

You knew Saddam was going to invade (Kuwait) but you didn't warn
him not to. You didn't tell him America would defend Kuwait. You told him
the opposite - that America was not associated with Kuwait.

Journalist 1 -

You encouraged this aggression - his invasion. What were you
thinking?

U.S. Ambassador Glaspie -

Obviously, I didn't think, and nobody else did, that the Iraqis were
going to take all of Kuwait.

Journalist 1 -

You thought he was just going to take some of it? But, how could you?
Saddam told you that, if negotiations failed, he would give up his Iran
(Shatt
al Arab waterway) goal for the Whole of Iraq, in the shape we wish it to
be.
You know that includes Kuwait, which the Iraqis have always viewed as
an
historic part of their country!

Journalist 1 -

American green-lighted the invasion. At a minimum, you admit
signaling Saddam that some aggression was okay - that the U.S. would
not
oppose a grab of the al-Rumeilah oil field, the disputed border strip and
the
Gulf Islands (including Bubiyan) - the territories claimed by Iraq?

(Ambassador Glaspie says nothing as a limousine door closed behind her
and
the car drives off.)
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Sun Nov 19, 2000 11:22 pm

Fanofjets, you're right. Comparing Saddam to Hitler is not fair. Hitler was not a rapist. And at least he liked dogs.

But Saddam is every inch as evil. He has started wars of aggression which have killed millions of people and he has gassed women and children simply for what they were.

Don't mistake scale for intent.

The only thing separating Saddam from Adolf is scale.

Saddam is not the leader of a nation that has anything close to the power that Germany had going into WW II. Hitler killed more people and did more damage only because he had the reach and the military implements to do so. If Hussein was given the military power that Hitler had at his disposal, he would have killed every last Jew long ago. And he would have enslaved every nation starting with the US. And if your mother would have caught his eye, he would have had her taken to his palace where he would have raped her. You do like your mother, don't you?

Imagine if Saddan had nuclear weapons and no one else did? Six million would be just the start. By the time he was through, it would have been 600 million.

Don't kid yourself about the measure of his Evil.

Unfortunately, because he has no nuclear weapons, the US decided that it serves their purposes to keep this monster in power simply as a counterweight to Iran.

If only Hitler would have had it so good.

Hmmmm...
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Mon Nov 20, 2000 12:19 am

I agree with most of what you say about Hussein, but is it fair to punish the Iraqui's to the extent that we have, just because of their leader?

On the subject of mass murderers, don't forget Stalin, Hirohito, Mao, and Pol Pot.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Mon Nov 20, 2000 12:40 am

A few days ago I saw on Dubai TV an announcement (in english) that Iraqi Airways is involved in negotiations with Airbus Industries to buy up to 25 A320, A330 and A340 to replace their complete fleet!
Airbus' officials (the sales manager for the Middle East)admits they are in the final stages of the talks with the airline and the only problem is the UN embargo against the country.
Airbus has suggested to deliver the planes to a newly founded Jordanian based leasing company in order to avoid sanctions by the US. Iraqi Airways would however receive direct and full technical support by Airbus Industries including home based training for crew and technical staff.
Boeing has not been asked to bid for this contract (no surprise I think) and is pushing the US government to take a firm stand on this very lucrative would be violation of the mainly American sanctions, but the French government (in favour of the complete lifting of the sanctions as proved by several recent Security Council resolutions) has said it is going to approve the sales anyhow.
it seems that by the end of next year we might see an A340 from Iraqi Airways landing at Paris Charles-de-Gaule again! (Already a few months ago non sceduled flights between Paris and Bagdad resumed.)

 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:44 am

Hi there,
Thank you to all who provide refreshing info and not
just bashing and bashing endlessly.
Sabenapilot, you have given us here the most refreshing news in this topic.
Ed Toner has also shed some light to some facts
that most Americans have no knowledge of or even
access to, thanks the US media.
To Hmmmm... I would like you to ask yourself this
question, Do you think the US would have confronted
Iraq if there was no oil involved. Remember, Saddam
was always fighting the Kurds in the north so as the
Turkish gov (is still doing) and also fighting the Shiite
population in the south of Iraq. He also started the
war against the Iranians. Why didn't anyone raise
a finger back then?? Saddam had his weapons from
everywhere you can imagine and yes also from the US.
It is just ridiculious to keep trying to describe who
Saddam is, and trying to find resemblence with
"former" dictators. What he would have done if he
was/were or had such and such......
Fact is that before that Gulf war, Iraq wasn't a poor
country. The economy was not bad at all comparing
to any of their neighbors. International business was
thriving and the country unlike its Arab sheikdom neighbors built on the idea of being self-sufficent,
building factories to produce everything they needed
and not to depend solely on oil revenues and imports.
I am not saying that Saddam is not evil or not a
dictator.
It is just nasty to blame Saddam for the plight of his
people. Imposing the sanctaions on Iraq ensures only
that the Iraqis stay poor and Saddam stays in power.
I hope this would be a little eye opener.
Regards,
Advancedkid
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Advancedkid

Mon Nov 20, 2000 2:52 am

Living in the middle east, I can't agree with you more, everything you said is the TRUTH. My parents lived there and loved the country and the people, they were the most open minded arabs, unlike the syrians or other nationalities who tend to be more narrow minded, and now they've been set back 1000 years because the US suddenly decided in 1990 that Saddam was a pain in the neck...what a joke, the middle east politics is about oil and money not about the shiites or kurds...I'm also not defending Sadam, he is bad...

the kurds belong in turkey not iraq, thats their homeland, and they're being persecuted without the US or UN(complete joke) intervening....the ASSYRIANS who still exist today (I am one) are the original people of Iraq, and Iraq comes from the assyrian word....IRQA....

Regards
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6419
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Advancedkid

Mon Nov 20, 2000 10:06 am

It seems to me that almost everybody has forgotten why the Gulf War began.
It began because Iraq invaded another country.
And it ended when they were thrown out from that country again.
I am not commenting on the "wisdom" in that, I'm only stating the historical facts.
During the war attempts were also made to hinder Iraq from launching Scud missiles against other countries. That attempt still stands as an unfulfilled attempt.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 8:32 am

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Mon Nov 20, 2000 10:41 am

AdvancedKid, if you're going to go with that handle, your post on this issue make you sound more kid than advanced.

Read my post again. I blame both both Saddam's evil and US moral complacency for his continued existence. Did you not read the last sentence of my last post. And when I speak of Saddam Hussein, am not talking about Iraq. I am speaking of the man. Not of the politics of the region. I thought I was quite elucid in that.

And if you think that Saddam is not to blame for Iraq's misery, then it is you that needs an eye opener. People commit suicide in that country because of him. That is, those who have not been shot, gassed, tortured, or sent to die in the desert. Or those he hasn't already murdered himself.

I don't believe in getting to him through sanctions. Sanctions never topple dictators. Sanctions won't work. He eats three times a day anyway. And Iraqis are too accustomed to misery, and too afraid of Saddam to be moved to do anything of their own. And the US left him in power to use him as a counterweight to Islamic fundamentalism.

From a moral perspective, US foreign policy is a sick joke. Just like the joke of this sheik giving this monster an expensive gift. A tie, or a pair of socks, maybe. But not a jumbo jet.

Hmmmm...
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE:hmmm...Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Mon Nov 20, 2000 3:04 pm

Hi Hmmmm...,
Thanks for responding .... Looks like you didn't like
my approach to the topic (from the way you liked to
reverse my name to KId...I had to lol). However what
you mentioned at the end of your post is exactly the
very point that I was making.
Kindest regards,
Advancedkid


 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE:Prebenholm

Mon Nov 20, 2000 3:35 pm

Hi Prebenholm,
No, history is not forgotten. It is very true
the war started because Saddam invaded the
other country. But this is just simply put.
For me personally after going a little bit further
back in that history, I could see clearly his wars
dated back to his conflict with the Iranians.
A war which Saddam also started but everyone
seems to have forgotten. And back then noone
even raised a finger and told him to stop it.
The Iranians had to deal with him on their own.
I remember very well the TV news back in the mid
80s was reporting Saddam was already using "illegal" weapons but nobody seemed to care about it as I already mentioned.
By the way, didn't Iraqi Airways have flights to either
Stockholm or Kobenhaven??
Kindest regards,
Advancedkid
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Mon Nov 20, 2000 3:43 pm

Ahh, a discussion on US foreign policy,
my favorite subject! (just kidding!)
Anyone who has taken a hard, sober
look at our foreign and domestic policy can
see that morals and values have very
little weight. We support whoever
will be the most beneficial to us.
China, for example, gained "most
favored nation" status while they
violate nearly every human-right
conceivable. Funny how Hillary Clinton
goes over for a conference on
the "Betterment of Women" while
Chairman Mao's kronies force women
to have abortions, monitor their cycles,
and conduct horriffic fetal experimentations.
Sound like a contradiction? It is!
Our dealings in the middle-east do
not shock me at all. We kill thousands
of people every year, and for what?
Because we don't agree with their
leader or because they have a different
philisophy of government than we
do? Why do we stand by and let
thousands of people die in Northern
Ireland, while we are the first ones to
rush into the middle-east? It's all about
money, power, and political leverage!
...a sad state of affairs indeed!

peace,
COexERJ
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE: Marco

Mon Nov 20, 2000 4:03 pm

Hi Marco,
Thanks for your nice responce and the info
regarding the Kurds and the Assyrians...
Did you tap on my back or something... .
Have you ever been on Iraqi Airways flights?
I personally cannot remember seeing any of their
planes but in photos. Could you tell me which
cities in Euope did they serve. I am guessing
they also served New York JFK.
Do you think Iraqi AW could be back up again
as someone here already mentioned, as early as
next winter using some new Airbuses, or is that
just some wishfull thinking?
What I have heard about the Kurds was different
from what you mentioned.
And by the way before I go. How do they greet
one another in Iraq. Don't they say "Saddam aleikum?"..
 
Kindest regards,
Advancedkid

 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE:Advancedkid

Mon Nov 20, 2000 11:07 pm

Hey,

In arabic they say "salam aleikum" but in my language it's totally different, my language is ARAMAIC, if you've ever heard of it, it's one of the oldest three languages in the world (hebrew and greek are the other two), our homeland was between the euphrates and tigris river but now we don't have one, saddam has been nice to us, although I must admit he has been cruel to the kurds, but to us he's been generally nice, however since we are a christian minority in the middle of 250 million muslims, it would be kind of hard to get a country although we do deserve one...however I'm loyal to Canada now, since I have a canadian passport and I love that country! I used to live in Kuwait until the gulf war and so my family and I used to fly regularly to Baghdad from Kuwait on Iraqi airways, I was around 6/5 years old back then so I don't remember a thing but my parents had a flight where the wheels wouldn't come down and the pilot still managed to land the plane safely. My aunt flew on them first class on the kuwait to baghdad flight, and was surprised because it's only a 50 min flight yet she got a full meal, which was very impressive, thats what she remembers! Iraqi airways used to fly to places like tokyo, rio de janeiro and london (I don't think JFK) with their B747-200's. I think it will take alot to return Iraq to how it was before. Before no one in Iraq cared about religion! not one woman was covered, my parents are shocked every time they see Iraqi women who are covered on the news...they used to drink alcohol until 3 every day! They still are an open-minded people, but they will become like Syria or Iran unless the sanctions are lifted! Hope you find this interesting, if you have anymore questions ask me or email me, I can ask my dad about Iraqi Airways!

 In my language when you greet someone you say "schlamalokhun", sounds hebrew, eh?
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
Guest

RE: Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Mon Nov 20, 2000 11:26 pm

PLEASE!!! WHAT IS THE REGISTRATION OF THIS PLANE!?

At least I'd like to know what's its rego when it's Mandarin!!



Using big fonts to make this stick out from the politics.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6419
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Advancedkid

Tue Nov 21, 2000 1:32 am

Advancedkid wrote:
-------------------------------
Hi Prebenholm,
No, history is not forgotten. It is very true
the war started because Saddam invaded the
other country. But this is just simply put.
For me personally after going a little bit further
back in that history, I could see clearly his wars
dated back to his conflict with the Iranians.
A war which Saddam also started but everyone
seems to have forgotten. And back then noone
even raised a finger and told him to stop it.
The Iranians had to deal with him on their own.
I remember very well the TV news back in the mid
80s was reporting Saddam was already using "illegal" weapons but nobody seemed to care about it as I already mentioned.
By the way, didn't Iraqi Airways have flights to either
Stockholm or Kobenhaven??
Kindest regards,
Advancedkid
---------------------------------------------

Advancedkid, I think that I agree fully with all what you have contributed. But having spent an hour on reading many posts about the Gulf War I felt that much people had forgotten what it was all about.
It was:
1. to get Iraq out of Kuwait
2. later, to end Scud missile threat on Israel.
Half of that was acomplished when George Bush sr. called it off.
There was never any serious attempt to work on internal Iraqi problems. This world is not politically equipped to handle such things. Only very lately have we finally reached the point where systematic murder of own people is not allowed IN EUROPE (Kosovo). And Europe is less than 10% of the world. You can mention at least a dozen "civil wars" or similar internal conflicts going on all over the world, and there are no attempts to do anything about that.
The history books of our great-grandchildren will treat our generation with tough words for that, just like we wonder how things worked during the dark middle age. They will judge us as "undeveloped" people as we really are.
Only when conflicts become somehow "international" are we equipped to straighten things up a little.
When and how will it change? Well, as long as we have strange countries like France, who gets as weak as jellyfish when they smell a little profit (for instance for selling Airbusses), and they get away with it, then nothing will change.

I think that Iraqi Airways must have had a route to at least Copenhagen. During the war I often walked by the Iraqi Airways office in Copenhagen. I noticed that it was empty. And there was one palm tree in the window which day by day became more and more yellow because nobody gave it a little water.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE:(Marco) Air Gulf Falcon Gives A 747SP To Saddam

Tue Nov 21, 2000 1:56 am

HI Marco,
Thanks for the info you provided. Very interesting.
I never knew or thought Iraqi had flights to Tokyo,
but if they did, they must have had flights to JFK too.
That's just my wild guess. And by the way, yes I
certainly know about Aramaic. I just didn't know it
is still a living language. Aramaic was language in the
time of Jesus. Aramaic developed from Hebrew and the Aramaic itself developed into what is now known as
"classical" Arabic. I have a question though. How does
the Aramaic script and letters look like? Must be somewhere between Hebrew and Arabic??
You mentioned you are now more loyal to Canada since
they have given you a passport... Well, thats ok. But,
I have to remind you to think this over again. One has to be loyal to the rightious and to the truth seekers and not to some political party or ideology. Canada is
a great country but I won't ever be loyal to Canada
or any other "country" if they get invloved in any kind of war.
Peace/Shalom/Salam/Friede/Paz,
The best greetings I will always hear is "Peace be with you".
Kindest regards,
Advancedkid
 
airlinefreak1
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2000 5:13 pm

Advancedkid

Tue Nov 21, 2000 5:39 am

advanced kid , u r 100% correct , a person should be loyal to his country of origin , eventhough if that person hasnt seen it before . iam originally iraqi , but have a british passport . It really hurts me about whats going on in iraq . i have never been there , but from what i have know , that it was once , a rich , beatiful country with an ancient history . In iraq , people spoke different languages and practised different religons (including judism , christianity and islam ) .
i also beileve that kurds should be allowed to live
freely in iraq , inluding ASSYRIANS -marco  
i hope everything will go back to normal , hopefuuly in the NEAR future , although i doubt it , iraq has been destroyed ........
ps: (salam alaykoum) in arabic , means "may peace be upon you" , saddam enjoyed people saying "saddam alaykoum" which is meaningless !just because it had his name in it .

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