User avatar
clickhappy
Topic Author
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:08 pm

AP is reporting: DOJ SAID PROBING WHETHER AIRLINES COLLUDING ON HIGH AIRFARE

No link yet, just a Bloomberg Terminal headline.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 2615
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:10 pm

Not colluding. Just immediately matching the second one of them moves in any direction.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2279
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 1):
Not colluding. Just immediately matching the second one of them moves in any direction.

And nothing new, they have been doing that for as long as I can remember - which is the 80s...
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Topic Author
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:12 pm

Well, the word colluding has a pretty clear meaning, so either you know more than the DoJ or ?
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Topic Author
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:14 pm

More info:
A document obtained by The Associated Press shows the Justice Department is investigating whether airlines are colluding to grow at a slower pace as part of an effort to keep airfares high.

The government has requested information from airlines as part of the antitrust investigation.

Justice Department spokeswoman Emily Pierce confirmed Wednesday that the department was investigating potential "unlawful co-ordination" among some airlines. She declined to comment further, including about which airlines are being investigated

As a result of a series of mergers starting in 2008, American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Southwest Airlines and United Airlines now control more than 80 per cent of the seats in US skies. They have eliminated unprofitable flights, filled a higher percentage of seats on planes and worked to slow growth in order to command higher airfares.


Doesn't look like it has anything to do with fare-matching.
 
Byrdluvs747
Posts: 2394
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:25 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:36 pm

Doug Parker can expect to do the most time on the government hot seat since he's been running his mouth about collusion.. err I mean consolidation for years.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 5):

Doug Parker can expect to do the most time on the government hot seat since he's been running his mouth about collusion.. err I mean consolidation for years.

You can add Kirby to that as well. Anderson probably hasn't helped himself either with the agenda to limit competition from the ME3.
 
GavinSharp
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:23 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:44 pm

Sounds related to the discussion in this thread:
Senator Asks DOJ Investigate Capacity "Discipline" (by enilria Jun 18 2015 in Civil Aviation)
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3568
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:47 pm

Nothing new, Bob Crandall to Richard Branson:

“Raise your g—– fares 20%. I’ll raise mine the next morning. You’ll make more money and I will too.”

[Edited 2015-07-01 11:51:53]
Ain't I a stinker?
 
SoJo
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:29 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Thread starter):
WHETHER AIRLINES COLLUDING

Is that something to do with the mile high club?
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1057
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 8):
Nothing new, Bob Crandall to Richard Branson:

“Raise your g—– fares 20%. I’ll raise mine the next morning. You’ll make more money and I will too.”

It was a call to Howard Putman of Braniiff.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
simairlinenet
Posts: 732
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:24 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:01 pm

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 8):
Nothing new, Bob Crandall to Richard Branson:

“Raise your g—– fares 20%. I’ll raise mine the next morning. You’ll make more money and I will too.”

Said to Howard Putnam (Braniff).
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3568
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:08 pm

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 11):
Said to Howard Putnam (Braniff).

Thanks for the correction.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 1855
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:22 pm

Basically the same situation as gas prices, IMO. Keeping up with the neighbor station lol.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4666
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 8):
Nothing new, Bob Crandall to Howard Putnam:

“Raise your g—– fares 20%. I’ll raise mine the next morning. You’ll make more money and I will too.”

Here's the thing: Crandall was kinda right about it all. Not about the price fixing, but about this:

Quote:
Crandall: I think it's dumb as hell, for Christ's sake, all right, to sit here and pound the [expletive] out of each other and neither one of us is making a [expletive] dime.

Putnam: Well...

Crandall: I mean, you know, goddam, what the [expletive] is the point of it?

Over a hundred airlines have come and gone since 1979. I count three major US airlines that have never declared bankruptcy (JetBlue, Southwest, and Spirit).
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 4618
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 14):
Over a hundred airlines have come and gone since 1979. I count three major US airlines that have never declared bankruptcy (JetBlue, Southwest, and Spirit).

Add AS to your list.
707, 717, 720, 727-1/2, 737-1/2/3/4/5/7/8/9, 747-1/2/3/4, 757, 767-2/3/4, 777, DC-8-5/6/7, DC-9-1/3/5, MD-80/2/3/7/8, DC-10-10/30/40, MD-11, F-27, F-28, SWM, J31, D38, DH7, DH8, DH4 SD-330, B-146, L-1011-2/500, ATR-42/72, VCV, A-300/310/318/319/320, CR2/7
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4664
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 4):
A document obtained by The Associated Press shows the Justice Department is investigating whether airlines are colluding to grow at a slower pace as part of an effort to keep airfares high.

The problem is how can you possibly quantify that?
 
Sooner787
Posts: 1805
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 4):
As a result of a series of mergers starting in 2008, American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Southwest Airlines and United Airlines now control more than 80 per cent of the seats in US skies. They have eliminated unprofitable flights, filled a higher percentage of seats on planes and worked to slow growth in order to command higher airfares.

And who gave their blessings to all these mergers? "Fed-zilla" that's who   
 
vin2basketball
Posts: 219
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:31 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:56 pm

Yep the minute airlines start making a decent return on capital for shareholders and start reversing cutbacks to employees, it's time for an investigation.

Everybody loses their minds the minute airlines make an ounce of profits. I don't understand why. Who's complaining about the billions made by Apple, or Google, or whomever, many of whom operate in much less competitive industries than US airlines. We have five nationwide carriers, 3 nationwide ULCCs, two strong regional carriers, and a host of other smaller/niche players.

A sustainable airline industry. Who wants that? That's crazy talk there.

The airlines made a conscious decision post 2009 to limit capacity. A large part of that was Wall Street rewarding them for that. If anyone is to "blame" for the current situation (once again, god forbid that airlines take care of shareholders, employees, as well as pax), it's probably Wall Street.

But nope, we'd rather have airlines operating on the brink. That's the way to go... Because it worked out so well the first 25 ish years of deregulation.

Wait. I know the solution, let's just go back to government regulation and interference in the market. Let bureaucrats make capacity decisions for airlines (and don't kid yourselves, this is exactly that). Because we all know the great low fares that we had prior to deregulation. When air travel was just so much more democratic and open for all. Oh wait.....
 
gmcc
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:54 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 4):
As a result of a series of mergers starting in 2008, American Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Southwest Airlines and United Airlines now control more than 80 per cent of the seats in US skies. They have eliminated unprofitable flights, filled a higher percentage of seats on planes and worked to slow growth in order to command higher airfares.


You mean run for profit businesses like for profit businesses. Businesses that are not one major shock away from declaring ch 11. SHOCKING. Trust the government to mess it up.
 
alfa164
Posts: 1687
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
Add AS to your list.

He said "major" airlines.  
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3934
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:01 pm

Here's the Washington Post's article. The DOJ is starting an investigation on whether airlines communciated illegally in order to restrict capacity and force airfares higher. The investigation is definitely not just about fare-matching.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...35-935065bc30d0_story.html?hpid=z2

IIRC, the Post allows one to read a few articles per month, so one shouldn't need to be a subscriber to read it.

Good for DOJ, doing its job. Airfares are unnecessarily high, and capacity unnecessaily low, in order to satisfy the unreasonable greed of Wall Street. Airlines are private businesses who provide a social or public good, so they have an obligation to keep fares as low as possible while still making a reasonable profit.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1732
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 17):
And who gave their blessings to all these mergers? "Fed-zilla" that's who

This. Perhaps the DOJ should investigate itself for approving all these mergers that have eliminated much of the competition.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
n562wn
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:50 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:04 pm

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 18):
Yep the minute airlines start making a decent return on capital for shareholders and start reversing cutbacks to employees, it's time for an investigation.

Everybody loses their minds the minute airlines make an ounce of profits. I don't understand why. Who's complaining about the billions made by Apple, or Google, or whomever, many of whom operate in much less competitive industries than US airlines. We have five nationwide carriers, 3 nationwide ULCCs, two strong regional carriers, and a host of other smaller/niche players.

A sustainable airline industry. Who wants that? That's crazy talk there.

The airlines made a conscious decision post 2009 to limit capacity. A large part of that was Wall Street rewarding them for that. If anyone is to "blame" for the current situation (once again, god forbid that airlines take care of shareholders, employees, as well as pax), it's probably Wall Street.

But nope, we'd rather have airlines operating on the brink. That's the way to go... Because it worked out so well the first 25 ish years of deregulation.

Wait. I know the solution, let's just go back to government regulation and interference in the market. Let bureaucrats make capacity decisions for airlines (and don't kid yourselves, this is exactly that). Because we all know the great low fares that we had prior to deregulation. When air travel was just so much more democratic and open for all. Oh wait.....

     

Great post! Sad but true..
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13808
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 18):
Everybody loses their minds the minute airlines make an ounce of profits. I don't understand why. Who's complaining about the billions made by Apple, or Google, or whomever, many of whom operate in much less competitive industries than US airlines. We have five nationwide carriers, 3 nationwide ULCCs, two strong regional carriers, and a host of other smaller/niche players.

A sustainable airline industry. Who wants that? That's crazy talk there.

  

Spot-on.

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 18):
Wait. I know the solution, let's just go back to government regulation and interference in the market. Let bureaucrats make capacity decisions for airlines (and don't kid yourselves, this is exactly that).

Sadly, the no or low-information citizens/voters out there would support precisely that. They're all for a free market, right up until it means it's more expensive to fly the family to Walt Disney World - then it's time for Congressional intervention.   

This is the DOJ making yet another political move to grab headlines and improve the Administration's approval ratings.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3934
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:06 pm

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 18):
Yep the minute airlines start making a decent return on capital for shareholders and start reversing cutbacks to employees, it's time for an investigation.


Airlines are simultaneously private businesses and stewards of a public or common good. Of course they should make a reasonable return. But now they're getting greedy. No, Southwest, for instance, should not be expecting a 15 percent return. Try 8-10.

As far as "reversing cutbacks to employees" goes, the correct understanding of the bankruptcies of 2003-2007 is that they achieved a restructuring of costs in accordance with the market. Airlines have an obligation to control their costs and be good stewards of the public trust they hold. Compensation was restructured in accordance with the market,and the industry should not return to the Regulation era cost structure.

Whether free-market purists at A.net or on Wall Street like these realities, is not the first consideration. Of course, likely nothing will come of this investigation, as usually the case with government investigations of the airline industry. But the fact that somebody at DOJ even initated the investgation is a good thing.

Jim

[Edited 2015-07-01 13:07:58]
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13808
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 20):
He said "major" airlines.

AS is a major airline. DOT defines "major" as having in excess of $1B in annual revenue. AS exceeds that hurdle easily.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 18):
Everybody loses their minds the minute airlines make an ounce of profits. I don't understand why. Who's complaining about the billions made by Apple, or Google, or whomever, many of whom operate in much less competitive industries than US airlines.

First of all the airline industry is not the only industry that people lose their minds about. Oil and telecomm are right there with them in terms of public perception. Apple, Google and other tech companies have certainly had their run ins with the DOJ as well. So to try to pawn this off as the DoJ singling out the airline industry is disingenuous.

Second, IF the investigation finds that airlines were coordinating capacity and pricing that is absolutely worthy of investigation and penalties regardless of how profitable they are.
 
Flighty
Posts: 8165
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:19 pm

Good. The DOJ is finally shaking the book at people.

The data could not be any clearer on this (whatever it may show). I saw Richard Anderson basically laughing this off in his Charlie Rose interview last year. It made my blood boil, because those laws aren't just a wishlist.

The remedies for crossing the line DO include breakup of airlines such as Delta if they get too frisky.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 21):
Good for DOJ, doing its job. Airfares are unnecessarily high, and capacity unnecessaily low, in order to satisfy the unreasonable greed of Wall Street. Airlines are private businesses who provide a social or public good, so they have an obligation to keep fares as low as possible while still making a reasonable profit.

Airlines have a duty not to engage in predatory pricing/dumping Because that would lead to one airline, which is NOT a marketplace.

As long as new entrants are allowed to contest markets including Atlanta... Dallas... Washington National... LaGuardia... JFK... ORD... we have a functioning market.

If Big 4 will not provide a service (or enough capacity), Spirit or VX and their investors must be able to do so (that word is "must," not "should.") If/when they are blocked, OR predatory behavior is used against them, it is magic time, time for DOJ to make sure we have a marketplace, not just a barrel us all to be victimized over.


[Edited 2015-07-01 13:23:58]
 
sspontak
Posts: 496
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:42 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 22):
This. Perhaps the DOJ should investigate itself for approving all these mergers that have eliminated much of the competition.

Exactly. What did the DOJ expect would happen with 4 major mergers? Did they really expect it would help with competition?
Go Delta!
 
ScottB
Posts: 5604
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:26 pm

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 18):
Who's complaining about the billions made by Apple, or Google, or whomever, many of whom operate in much less competitive industries than US airlines.

Apple is in a FAR more competitive industry than the domestic airline market. There are literally hundreds of mobile phone, table, and personal computer manufacturers and Apple generally makes little or no effort to match them on price. Apple makes billions of dollars precisely because so many consumers willingly pay more for their products than what competitors charge -- not because they're intentionally restraining capacity and telling the other players in the market they're doing so.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 5):
Doug Parker can expect to do the most time on the government hot seat since he's been running his mouth about collusion.. err I mean consolidation for years.

Yeah, a lot of what he has said comes very close to the line of saying, "we'd like to reduce capacity to push fares up and we need our competitors to do that, too."

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 22):
Perhaps the DOJ should investigate itself for approving all these mergers that have eliminated much of the competition.

I agree that the DOJ bears a lot of the blame for allowing the consolidation which has led to "capacity discipline," but then there's also some misrepresentation on the part of the carriers who generally pledged that the mergers would lead to more/improved service & networks as a result of cost reductions, rather than reduced capacity intended to inflate profits.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 25):
Airlines are simultaneously private businesses and stewards of a public or common good. Of course they should make a reasonable return. But now they're getting greedy. No, Southwest, for instance, should not be expecting a 15 percent return. Try 8-10.

They are definitely not "stewards of the common good", that is ludicrous.

They are for-profit, privately owned enterprises the same as any other. Who are you to decide what level of profits are acceptable for a business?

The only thing they 'owe' to the public is to run a safe operation, which is obviously also in their own interest because an unsafe operation would also be an unprofitable one.
 
ual777
Posts: 1574
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 21):
Here's the Washington Post's article. The DOJ is starting an investigation on whether airlines communciated illegally in order to restrict capacity and force airfares higher. The investigation is definitely not just about fare-matching.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...35-935065bc30d0_story.html?hpid=z2

IIRC, the Post allows one to read a few articles per month, so one shouldn't need to be a subscriber to read it.

Good for DOJ, doing its job. Airfares are unnecessarily high, and capacity unnecessaily low, in order to satisfy the unreasonable greed of Wall Street. Airlines are private businesses who provide a social or public good, so they have an obligation to keep fares as low as possible while still making a reasonable profit.

Jim

What proof do you have that they are unnecessarily high?
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
AABB777
Posts: 555
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:05 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:45 pm

This news from the same DOJ that approved the airline mergers.
 
chrisp390
Posts: 533
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 6:37 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting sspontak (Reply 29):

At this point there is close to zero chance of any more mergers going through. The only one with any chance in the future is Spirit - Frontier and the justice dept may in fact support such a merger after all this
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 4144
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:56 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 17):
And who gave their blessings to all these mergers? "Fed-zilla" that's who

Why exactly did the Feds just rubber stamp all these mergers?

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 20):
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
Add AS to your list.

He said "major" airlines.

Right, and you think the bottom feeder of airlines, Spirit, is more major than AS?
 
Indy
Posts: 4021
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:11 pm

Of course there is collusion. That was the whole point to "consolidation." It was all about eliminating competition and allowing the few remaining airlines the ability to manipulate the market. For the most part choices for consumers have been eliminated. Services have been slashed, fares have risen, additional fees have been added. There is little to no accountability. Personally, I think most of the mergers that have taken place over the last 10 years or so should be undone. Let poor management and companies die off. I hope the DoJ does something about the system wide abuses and puts an end to it once and for all. It is time they use the powers they have at their disposal.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
 
rentonview
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting sspontak (Reply 29):
If Big 4 will not provide a service (or enough capacity), Spirit or VX and their investors must be able to do so (that word is "must," not "should.") If/when they are blocked, OR predatory behavior is used against them, it is magic time, time for DOJ to make sure we have a marketplace, not just a barrel us all to be victimized over.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm far more concerned with anti-competitive behaviors than potential price collusion.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24827
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:30 pm

Quoting Indy (Reply 36):
Personally, I think most of the mergers that have taken place over the last 10 years or so should be undone

It is certainly too late to undo the mergers (or in the case of Southwest, eat up a competitor and eliminate it entirely), but absolutely the major carriers are too large and should be forced to break apart. But realistically, that won't happen for a very, very, very long time.

But what should happen more immediately is an investigation of Southwest's "merger" with AirTran.
a.
 
n471wn
Posts: 1412
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:37 pm

[quote=MAH4546,reply=38]But what should happen more immediately is an investigation of Southwest's "merger" with AirTran.

You must be joking as while Air Tran disappeared most of its routed remain---SWA is far more fair than the other mergers
 
william
Posts: 1741
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:45 pm

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 34):
At this point there is close to zero chance of any more mergers going through. The only one with any chance in the future is Spirit - Frontier and the justice dept may in fact support such a merger after all this

Who's left to merge?????
 
william
Posts: 1741
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 1999 1:31 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:54 pm

Funny, many here were giddy talking about merger possibilities, and now that we have gone from 6 to 3 majors, and we are now complaining? What did we think was going to happen? All of the "what if they close this hub talk" seem mute now. Are we better off now? The MBAs running the airlines could not practice capacity discipline when there were 6 of them?
 
calpilot
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 1999 5:16 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:58 pm

BS....

Finally, Behaving like rational, prudent, smart businesses. Instead of, testosterone driven out of control expansion everytime there is a shot at an extra .00001 margin growth.

It's free market... Anderson, Parker, etc., are not colluding, they're just all using a practical business plan.
 
User avatar
A333MSPtoAMS
Posts: 231
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:18 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:00 pm

Here's also a link on

NBC.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...-collusion-keep-fares-high-n385336

and

CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/01/politi...s-unlawful-coordination/index.html


My biggest gripe is that hub captives tend to pay quite a bit more than non-hub captives. I once tested an airfare from MSP to AMS and it was $1300, but when I tried flying out of MKE via MSP to AMS it was about $1075. Also, the cost to change a ticket. $200 seems like a lot, especially if you're changing information 3-4 months before the flight.
As of Jul 2016 I've flown 192 flights on 43 airplane types with 41 airlines traveling thru 85 airports in 37 countries. I've visited 50 countries with 1 more unique one this year. My greatest achievement was climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro in Oct 2015.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1726
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:09 pm

Quoting calpilot (Reply 42):
Anderson, Parker, etc., are not colluding,

How do you know they aren't colluding?
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 4618
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:19 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 20):
He said "major" airlines.

And if you'd notice that the person I was responding to, listed B6, NK & WN as his examples, hence my remark.  
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26):
AS is a major airline. DOT defines "major" as having in excess of $1B in annual revenue. AS exceeds that hurdle easily.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 35):
Right, and you think the bottom feeder of airlines, Spirit, is more major than AS?

A.net life is so much easier when you got back up ...  
707, 717, 720, 727-1/2, 737-1/2/3/4/5/7/8/9, 747-1/2/3/4, 757, 767-2/3/4, 777, DC-8-5/6/7, DC-9-1/3/5, MD-80/2/3/7/8, DC-10-10/30/40, MD-11, F-27, F-28, SWM, J31, D38, DH7, DH8, DH4 SD-330, B-146, L-1011-2/500, ATR-42/72, VCV, A-300/310/318/319/320, CR2/7
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 1732
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:20 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 30):
I agree that the DOJ bears a lot of the blame for allowing the consolidation which has led to "capacity discipline," but then there's also some misrepresentation on the part of the carriers who generally pledged that the mergers would lead to more/improved service & networks as a result of cost reductions, rather than reduced capacity intended to inflate profits.

Yeah, but the DOJ should know better. Those kind of promises have been used by airlines (and other companies) for decades and they rarely follow through unless it's legally binding.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Flighty
Posts: 8165
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:44 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 38):

Agreed that Wn FL merger alone cost me thousands of dollars. And I am a nobody joe blow a.netter. It's not the worst thing--clearly oil refiners and wholesalers are more criminal. But that merger just wasn't legal.

For the same reasons price collusion is illegal, certain mergers are not legal. It wouldn't be legal for WN to even telephone FL about pricing. Yet the main price spoiler in the country just "went away." How they got under the bar of "not harming US consumers" is truly comical.
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1017
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:50 pm

Reply 69,

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 68):
Airlines will still fly but their stock will be way down.

That's not what wall street predicts AT ALL.

2015 Airline Industry Predictions (by SLCSFOPDX Dec 27 2014 in Civil Aviation)#1
Ever Wish You Can Go Back In Time And Live In An Earlier Era Of Aviation?
 
dc10lover
Posts: 1017
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:11 pm

RE: Airlines Stocks Plunge After DoJ Probes Collusion

Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:58 pm

Ever Wish You Can Go Back In Time And Live In An Earlier Era Of Aviation?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos