Just Out Of Interest...

Mon Mar 29, 1999 4:15 am

Just out of interest I would like to know why there is so much animated discussion going on about Boeing vs Airbus, and especially the subsidies that either side does or does not get when there is another issue regarding subsidies going on; it's between Bombardier and Embraer regarding alleged illegal subsidies for their respective regional jets. This is much more tangible and less open to speculation yet it is never even mentioned over here. Surely this couldn't be because there is no US manufacturer involved ?

Another interesting thing, why is that there are no US built regional jets (with such a large marked) and very few US built modern turboprops ? I can only think of the Beech 1900D really. All the others are either built in Canada, Brazil or Europe. Anybody know why the US industry apparently isn't very interested in the regional airline marked ?
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RE: Just Out Of Interest...

Mon Mar 29, 1999 4:25 am

I think because they'll get their a**es kicked. Also I didn't know anything about this Bombardier/Embraer affair. Probably because the Boeing/Airbus saga steals the spotlight.
Could you tell us all what is going around with those 2?


RE: Just Out Of Interest...

Mon Mar 29, 1999 4:52 am

Has the WTO (world trade organization) ruled on this yet?


Fly Lance UFO to the WTO to the OSCE!!!
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RE: Just Out Of Interest...

Mon Mar 29, 1999 5:57 am

I haven't heard of the RJ thing either.

I think that one of the reasons is that Donier at one point was losing $50,000 dollers on every 328, that is was makeing. I can't remember where a saw that number though so don't rely on it.

There are only two companies that I know of that would be in a position two build an RJ, Gulfstream and Raytheon(Beech). Gulfstream would be the obvious choice since they allready build simular sized aircraft and there G-1C conversion was sold as a regional prop. Raython makes the Beech family and smaller jets. I don't think any of these companies want to leave their core bizjet market. But a long range G-V derived RJ would be an interesting aircraft.

RE: Just Out Of Interest...

Mon Mar 29, 1999 8:26 am

The World Trade Organization (WTO) has just ruled against Brazil's Proex programme. This is an interest-rate equalisation programme designed to offset higher financing costs for customers buying Brazilian products. Bombardier has said that this programme has reduced the price of the EMB-135/145 considerably.

They have a point of course, however I feel sorry for Embraer. I like Embraer and how they have grown from a relatively unknown company to a company making first-class planes. It seems to me that had they been a Canadian company (for instance) they wouldn't have needed the Proex programme because the finance charges for Canada aren't as high as for Brasil. So it's really no fault of their own. (I know very little about all of this economic stuff, so if I'm talking non-sense I'm sure somebody will be kind enough to clear things up).
Then again, you can't really blame Canadair for coming up for their rights either. I just think that Brazil could use some support in these areas, especially with the current economic crisis over there.

The WTO has also ruled against Canada by the way. It ruled against the Technology Partnership Programme (TPC) because repayment is conditional on export succes. I have no idea what all this means quite frankly but the idea I get is that these two rulings are a considerably bigger blow for Embraer than for Canadair.

Perhaps some of the Brazilian forum users can expand on this a bit ?

RE: Just Out Of Interest...

Mon Mar 29, 1999 8:53 am

The first line of Dash8's response reminds me why I rarely post in this forum. Idiotic drivel like this advertises your low IQ like a blaring horn in a quiet neighborhood.

The barriers to entry into the aviation industry are the highest in the manufacturing sector. It is only natural for govt's to defray these stupefying costs by providing subsidies. Having a world class manufacturer of commercial jets is a matter of national pride. Do you think Europe was dying to get Airbus off the ground for the great returns on investment? Of course not, Its a matter of pride. The US is moving away from a manufacturing based economy to a service based economy because this is where the returns are. Let's face it, even after 50 years, Boeing is lucky to get a 5% return from top-line revenue. It takes four separate companies to produce 3 aircraft lines for Airbus. If you're an investor, this is one of the least attractive industries in the market. And still no competitor from Asia. I could stare at jets for the rest of my life and never get bored, but Dash8 please pick up the red clue phone. Its been ringing loudly in your house for a while now.
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RE: Horn Sound/ Knuckles

Mon Mar 29, 1999 10:22 am

White Knuckles wrote:
The first line of Dash8's response reminds me why I rarely post in this forum. Idiotic drivel like this advertises your low IQ like a blaring horn in a quiet neighborhood.

Dear White,

Sometimes I wish that I could state things (in English) as wonderful as you do.
These two lines of yours sounded like music into my ears.
Please stay in this forum to say what I sometimes think but cannot write down like you do, because I am not a native English speaker ! We need more like you !
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

Antonov, White Knuckles

Mon Mar 29, 1999 12:16 pm

It is comments that you quoting the first line of Dash8 response and then firing shots at him that bring this site down and ruin it for everybody.

Didn't you pay any attention to the earlier comments about Will leaving the site. It is comments like that that make people leave.

Get of the (Explative Deleted) put down boat. You should really look at the content of your postings. You really should.

Cool Cat IIIc Is Right

Mon Mar 29, 1999 1:35 pm

Cool Cat is right in his post. I think that the big issue is that Embraer was starting to steal a substancial market share from Bombardier, that triggered this whole affair.

The ERJ-145 is not only cheaper then the RJ, but also more economical to's a good, reliable plane. A recent accident with a Rio-Sul 145 in Curitiba, where the plane almost splited in half due to a very rough landing, showed that the ERJ is a good, safe plane. With the data analised, the investigators were amazed how little damage the plane took, with that landing, this accident was supposed to be a disaster.

RE: Cool Cat IIIc Is Right

Tue Mar 30, 1999 11:50 am

The WTO ruling stated that Bombardier receuved a total of 3.5M$ in illegal subsidies. The brazilian Proex program reduced the price of each jet by 3 to 4M$. Cool Cat IIIc wrote that the interest rates being higher in Brazil, the program was not that bad. He's right. HOWEVER, when Continental airlines buys jets, they don't finance them in BRazil but in the US, with US interest rates. So the Proex program was really worth a lot to all non-brazilian Embrear customers.