cityairline
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Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:47 am

The airline will launch a thrice weekly nonstop service AKL-MNL, operated by a 767-300.
The new route is expected to start in December.

http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/786125...aland-launches-philippines-service

The Filipino population in New Zealand has trippled since 2001 to reach 40,000.
Also, the visitors from New Zealand to the Philippines increased by 17% last year to 20,000.

The airline will compete with Philippine Airlines four weekly A320 MNL-CNS-AKL...

/Alex
I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
 
zkncj
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Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:28 am

Quoting cityairline (Thread starter):
operated by a 767-300

Good luck to anyone that decides to fly this route in Business Class, these 763s are long over due to meet the desert!
 
hkcanadaexpat
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Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:03 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 1):
these 763s are long over due to meet the desert

perhaps an interior refurb rather than the desert... the youngest is less than 20 years old and will have a long life to go post ANZ retirement!
A
 
zkncj
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Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:35 am

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 2):
perhaps an interior refurb rather than the desert... the youngest is less than 20 years old and will have a long life to go post ANZ retirement!

NCG 1993 - 23 years
NCI 1994 - 22 years
NCJ 1995 - 23 years
NCK 1997 - 20 years
NCL 1997 - -20 years

NCK/NCL are both meant to be leaving the fleet this year, one was meant to go in March. Then next year NCG,NCI,NCJ are all meant to be meeting the same fate.

They last had an interior refurb in 2008 to install AVOID, but kept the original seats from delivery in them. The the grand scale of NZ's fleet they are pretty old, e.g the last 733 fleet with the fleet when it was only 16 years old, and starting next year the 1999-2004 ATR 72-500s will leave the fleet.
 
hkcanadaexpat
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:40 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 3):
The the grand scale of NZ's fleet they are pretty old

my point is that none of them are going to the desert. they will also be sold in the second hand market and will fly for at least a decade to come. probably more in the freighter market if they end up there.
A
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:25 am

Quoting hkcanadaexpat (Reply 4):

Last I heard the 3 older ones would be scrapped, I guess someone may want them but they have certainly been well used!
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:27 am

The seats on the 763 are better in terms of comfort for long journeys than the 789s. It's not going to be an issue for most.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Freshside3
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:34 am

I wouldn't have thought the flight would be 10-1/2 hours long. But apparently it is.
 
gytr31
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Wed Apr 06, 2016 10:47 am

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 7):

Its a long way down to get here....
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:41 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 1):
Good luck to anyone that decides to fly this route in Business Class,

The airfare for J-class on NZ's 763's reflects the gulf between it and the Business Premiere offered on the rest of the long-haul fleet.
come visit the south pacific
 
flyingdoc787
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:28 am

Which terminal will NZ use in MNL? T1or T3?
 
bastew
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:24 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 1):
Good luck to anyone that decides to fly this route in Business Class, these 763s are long over due to meet the desert!

ANYTHING (well almost) has to be better than the competing J product - an A320 on PR with a stop in CNS. Yuk
 
zkncj
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:41 am

Quoting bastew (Reply 11):
ANYTHING (well almost) has to be better than the competing J product - an A320 on PR with a stop in CNS. Yuk

PR A320 Business Seat is 22" wide, on NZ 763 its 22" although NZ wins with the 50" pitch.

NZ are still using the same J seat from the 1990s on the 763, should really be called PE.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:58 am

Quoting cityairline (Thread starter):
The airline will launch a thrice weekly nonstop service AKL-MNL, operated by a 767-300.
NZ is lucky to have the 763 with which to start the route. It's the right capacity and paid off thus less risk...and so requires less to turn a profit.

Quoting cityairline (Thread starter):
The airline will compete with Philippine Airlines four weekly A320 MNL-CNS-AKL...

I'm wondering whether PR would be better off making AKL a tag-on to their (3x weekly) POM service? Of course, that depends on their loads to CNS...and timings will be an important factor.


Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 5):
The seats on the 763 are better in terms of comfort for long journeys than the 789s. It's not going to be an issue for most.

That seven-across seating in Y will be a redeeming feature of the long-in-the-tooth 763 over this quite distant sector.


Quoting flyingdoc787 (Reply 10):
Which terminal will NZ use in MNL? T1or T3?

Got no basis for this but I suspect they'd be using T1.


Quoting bastew (Reply 11):
ANYTHING (well almost) has to be better than the competing J product - an A320 on PR with a stop in CNS. Yuk

Well, PR was reported mulling to convert a couple or so of their A321NEO order to the -LR variant for deep Oz missions.

http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/ne...lls-converting-some-a321neo-to-lrs

PR's president hopes to serve AKL nonstop in two years (when they will have grown the route to warrant it) with their newish A333s...though those may be a bit large for the purpose. However, Airbus' A321LR can't quite do the 4,300+ nm MNL-AKL segment, while the A338NEO seems to be in limbo. If only PR had A332s.....

[Edited 2016-04-08 20:51:27]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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mariner
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:35 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 13):
I'm wondering whether PR would be better off making AKL a tag-on to their (3x weekly) POM service? Of course, that depends on their loads to CNS...and timings will be an important factor.

I posted the following in the NZ thread, but it applies here:

I have a very soft spot for Philippine Airlines.

In my heavy travelling days, I flew with them three or four times, up the front - the service was always exemplary and the food terrific. I can still remember a Chicken Szechuan they served as being one of the best I've ever tasted. I wondered, aloud, about a second portion, and lo - they found one,

The airline has had problems, and I'm hoping that the new Air NZ non-stop doesn't beat up their one-stop too much. In my ideal world, I'd hope the two airlines would do a code share deal, giving pax more options.

I'm not holding my breath but I'd be pleased to see it.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
zkncj
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:48 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
The airline has had problems, and I'm hoping that the new Air NZ non-stop doesn't beat up their one-stop too much. In my ideal world, I'd hope the two airlines would do a code share deal, giving pax more options.

Unfortunately I don't think NZ is currently seeing them as Friends, this winter NZ is running an 772 on AKL-CNS against them.

On an route that was mainly A320 seasonal, now getting 772s just because someone else on the route sounds like an typical NZ tactic.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:56 am

PR offering daily A321NEO-LR's will likely do well on routes like MEL where it could upgrade frequency to daily with less yield pressures compared to the A330 (especially if 5J launches flights), but as stated it does not appear to meet the specs of an AKL service.

I do feel that the one stop service likely will not last in the face of competition from NZ, but it will all come down to the loyalty to PR from its target demographic and the yields that it can attain.

It will be interesting to watch.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:31 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 15):

Hardly it's just NZ putting capacity where it's needed with the 763s retiring that went to CNS last year, I personally doubt it has much to do with PR flying the route.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 13):

Hmm I never said that.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 12):

And again that's why the 763s are now been used on routes with little or no competition so it doesn't matter what the J seats are like so much. Sure People could do NRT rather than KIX, I expect some changes to TYO with ANA to op AKL-HND and NZ to reduce NRT to daily most likely despite what some said when I said that a while back. So KIX will become NZs seasonal Japan increase while NZ ANA will offer AKL-TYO double daily most of the year.
 
zkncj
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:12 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 16):
I do feel that the one stop service likely will not last in the face of competition from NZ, but it will all come down to the loyalty to PR from its target demographic and the yields that it can attain.

I'd say the NZ service will hurt PR, with the novelty traffic from the New Zealand market choosing the direct NZ service over the PR service.

Mainly to the fact the new NZ service starting will get much more of an home market promotion and brand awareness. Just look at how much you've seen that PR flys to AKL? there next to no media in the Auckland market for it. Where as NZ will be promote it heavily thought local media / social media to the New Zealand market. Which will pick up allot of the hey lets try it out market, just because it something new.
 
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mariner
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:46 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 15):
On an route that was mainly A320 seasonal, now getting 772s just because someone else on the route sounds like an typical NZ tactic.

Maybe I don't see it in quite the combative terms that you do - LOL.

I'd have assumed - or hoped - that Air NZ is responding to potential demand for CNS, which is a very attractive place in season, because I think it would be overkill to put such a large aircraft on the route just to kick Philippines in the nuts.

And if the two airlines are not to be "friends" I think that's a pity, because I think that MNL could be a useful connecting point for quite a lot of Asia.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:01 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 18):
I'd say the NZ service will hurt PR, with the novelty traffic from the New Zealand market choosing the direct NZ service over the PR service.

I also think it will hurt PR, especially on the NZ outbound side in particular. There's likely still an element of loyalty to PR from a major target market that NZ has appeared to state formed part of its business case, which is the VFR sector.

Whether or not that VFR market does stick with PR or moves across will be interesting to watch.
 
777LRF
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:20 pm

Anyone read any metrics regarding PRs MNL-CNS-AKL service? Perhaps as this route matures the demographic will turn out to be simply local traffic between MNL-CNS and CNS-AKL. I don't think it is given that NZ also being on the AKL-CNS route might be overkill in terms of capacity but it'll be interesting to see this one play out.

At the same time I think PR is quite dedicated to the Australiasia market as we see with the fifth freedoms they're doing (such as MNL-DRW-BNE). Hopefully they work out for them.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:30 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
In my heavy travelling days, I flew with them three or four times, up the front - the service was always exemplary and the food terrific. I can still remember a Chicken Szechuan they served as being one of the best I've ever tasted. I wondered, aloud, about a second portion, and lo - they found one,

I'd never been able to afford F (even back when PR still had it) so I couldn't compare. That said, they probably had the extra serving as very few pax fly first? I flew CX LAX-HKG-MNL in Y last year and the food almost made up for the two-hour delay at HKG due to equipment change trouble...not to mention the fare being cheaper on the one-stop.

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
I'm hoping that the new Air NZ non-stop doesn't beat up their one-stop too much.

I hope so too and would be glad if PR's one-stop could grow to consistently fill an A321, or be upgraded to nonstop service eventually with bigger equipment.


Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 16):
PR offering daily A321NEO-LR's will likely do well on routes like MEL where it could upgrade frequency to daily with less yield pressures compared to the A330 (especially if 5J launches flights)

One drawback with a daily A321 service though is the congestion problem at MNL. It would be a boon if PR could split the frequencies between MNL and CEB as many pax ex AKL and CNS are likely headed to leisure spots in central Philippines anyway.


Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 17):
Hmm I never said that.

Sorry, my bad. I highlighted the quote and clicked the wrong box.


Quoting mariner (Reply 19):
I'd have assumed - or hoped - that Air NZ is responding to potential demand for CNS, which is a very attractive place in season, because I think it would be overkill to put such a large aircraft on the route just to kick Philippines in the nuts.
Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 20):
Whether or not that VFR market does stick with PR or moves across will be interesting to watch.

At the end of the day, the VFR markets in AKL and CNS are still a very limited pool for PR to pin their business case on. They, perforce, have to cast a wider net to remain competitive.

[Edited 2016-04-09 08:17:09]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:04 pm

Checking BITRE it appears the MNL-CNS-AKL service started in December 2015. I appears there are 17 one way flights a month.
Total passengers MNL-CNS -MNL were 766 in December and 674 in January. Total passengers CNS-AKL for the two months were 3702 and AKL-CNS 3049. This of course does not tell us what the MNL-AKL traffic was.
 
zkncj
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:57 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 17):
Hardly it's just NZ putting capacity where it's needed with the 763s retiring that went to CNS last year, I personally doubt it has much to do with PR flying the route.

It's still adding an additional 100 seats per service, and floods the market with PE/J seats.

Only 2x 763s are meant to be leaving this year (we're meant to be gone in March), with the last 3 going next year.
 
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mariner
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:15 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 24):
It's still adding an additional 100 seats per service, and floods the market with PE/J seats.

Which I hope the airline believes it can fill, and - hopefully again - at not too great a discount.

I'd be concerned if they were dumping capacity on the route for the sole purpose of sticking it to the competition. That the competition may feel the effects of it should be a b-yproduct, not the main event.

I'm a believer in the old Southwest Airlines rule - if it ain't making money fix it or don't fly it.

mariner

[Edited 2016-04-09 12:37:46]
aeternum nauta
 
zkncj
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:17 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 25):
Which I hope the airline believes it can fill, and - hopefully again - at not too great a discount.

An quick look around July on NZ/PH on the 772 days they both seem to be around the $340 mark on AKL-CNS.

Although don't think PH will get many direct online sales, there website is painful to try do an booking on.

If you're not staying directly in CNS NZ has the avtanage of an early AM departure ex AKL
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 8:52 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 24):

I think NZ ran 5 weekly for a time last year or maybe it was the year before. But the 763 this year is 4 weekly with 2 being 772s over the busiest period. Obviously the remaining 763s are being used elsewhere.

Quoting zkncj (Reply 26):

Remember NZ is timed for US conections as well.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 23):

Pretty low on MNL-CNS then like 40-45 pax a flights with 105-110 on CNS-AKL plus whatever is doing MNL-AKL.

Quoting 777LRF (Reply 21):

Welcome to A.net. That's not fifth freedom PR are doing, fifth freedom is like CNS-AKL where an overseas carrier like PR is allowed to pick up pax from 1 country a fly them to another. Like NZ LAX-LHR. I can't remember what it's called but PR can't pick up local pax and fly them DRW-BNE. Not sure how that flight does but maybe an A321NEOLR could do MNL-BNE non stop.
 
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mariner
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:20 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 26):
If you're not staying directly in CNS NZ has the avtanage of an early AM departure ex AKL

I guess most people going to CNS at that time of the year are staying in or around Cairns or the outlying beaches - Port Douglas, maybe. North of Port Douglas there isn't a lot of tourist infrastructure - Wiki describes Cape York as "unspoiled wilderness."

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:01 am

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 27):
I can't remember what it's called but PR can't pick up local pax and fly them DRW-BNE.
.
Cabotage is the word you're looking for.


Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 27):
Not sure how that flight does but maybe an A321NEOLR could do MNL-BNE non stop.

The A321LR can do pretty much all of Australia nonstop from MNL.....

http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...passengeraircraft/a320family/a321/

Quote:
"The A321LR – a new variant of Airbus’ A321neo, deliveries of which will begin in 2019 – will have the longest range of any single-aisle jetliner, able to fly routes of up to 4,000 nm. It is ideally suited to transatlantic routes, and enables airlines to tap into new long-haul markets that were not previously accessible with current single-aisle aircraft."


Perhaps Airbus would come up with a HGW XLR version which could do MNL-AKL nonstop in the near future.....

View Large View Medium
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Photo © T.Laurent
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © T.Laurent

MNL-ADL/BNE/CNS/MEL/PER/SYD&DU=nm" target="_blank">http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=MNL-ADL/BNE/CNS/MEL/PER/SYD&DU=nm
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:10 pm

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 29):
Perhaps Airbus would come up with a HGW XLR version which could do MNL-AKL nonstop in the near future.....



You are suggesting an airplane which would require an increase in range from 4000nm to more than 5000nm. Quite an increase!
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:02 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 30):
You are suggesting an airplane which would require an increase in range from 4000nm to more than 5000nm. Quite an increase!

I already mentioned in #13 that it's 4,300+ nm. Don't know by how much Airbus' claimed range would deviate from the actual figure but MNL-AKL Great Circle is mostly a southerly track and within 180 min of alternates and Australia's east coast.

If no further range increase could be squeezed out of the A321neo, then maybe a longer-ranged A322 (with Airbus' CabinFlex option) that others have been talking up might be launched and pressed into service?.....

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z160/keesje_pics/AirbusA321A322NEOStretch757.jpg
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...cs/AirbusA321A322NEOStretch757.jpg


One could argue that a B788 would be a better, more flexible choice. But could it really be more economical than a narrowbody in this case, taking acquisition and operation costs into account? Besides, it would be a new, additional type in PR's small fleet.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:18 pm

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 31):
it would be a new, additional type in PR's small fleet.

the 788 would be useful, but then the costs are marginally less than the larger 789 with less seats less cargo so an airline may as well operate the larger aircraft (NZ transferred from 788s), In the same way for PR an A350 is larger than an A340 but burn will be considerably less so they may as well use an A350
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:35 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 32):
the 788 would be useful, but then the costs are marginally less than the larger 789 with less seats less cargo so an airline may as well operate the larger aircraft (NZ transferred from 788s)

The question then becomes "could PR consistently fill the bigger aircraft on this relatively thin route?" .....given the passenger figures in #23 and #27.

Come to think of it, a 220 seat, 4,500nm Airbus CabinFlex frame falls right smack where Boeing's MoM is supposed to be. So, would it suffer being "too niche" as well and risk not being built at all? If yes, PR likely would just fly their A320/A321s via POM on their way to AKL and back to economize and last.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air New Zealand Launches Manila Service

Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:39 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
I guess most people going to CNS at that time of the year are staying in or around Cairns or the outlying beaches - Port Douglas, maybe. North of Port Douglas there isn't a lot of tourist infrastructure - Wiki describes Cape York as "unspoiled wilderness."

Whereas for people connecting from other New Zealand cities, NZ's CNS flight leaves too early for same-day connections at AKL and one has to overnight beforehand which makes VA more attractive via BNE from WLG. Perhaps the PR flight will be similarly attractive if they can codeshare with JQ between WLG-AKL etc?
come visit the south pacific

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