wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:31 am

yochai wrote:
Delivery flight scheduled for tomorrow TLV-SNN ETD 0845Z


I'm guessing that if 337AZ is deliverable, then 370AA ought to be next (at least for our purposes). And soon-ish.
 
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:57 am

wjcandee wrote:
Speaking of 353 and the Fleet Status Page: What's UP with that a/c? Been sitting in ILN for almost 9 days.

Entered revenue service on 6/14. Flew fewer than 6 days, then back to ILN on 6/20, where it's been ever since...


Magic 8-ball says that it's on the OpSpecs but undergoing a dual engine change right now. Estimated to enter service on the 3rd.
 
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:58 am

wjcandee wrote:
yochai wrote:
Delivery flight scheduled for tomorrow TLV-SNN ETD 0845Z


I'm guessing that if 337AZ is deliverable, then 370AA ought to be next (at least for our purposes). And soon-ish.


Our "Wednesday update" says it should be on cert be August.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:08 am

Acey559 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
yochai wrote:
Delivery flight scheduled for tomorrow TLV-SNN ETD 0845Z


I'm guessing that if 337AZ is deliverable, then 370AA ought to be next (at least for our purposes). And soon-ish.


Our "Wednesday update" says it should be on cert be August.


Thanks! Cool. So that means delivery pretty-soon, two weeks for paint and a week or two to do whatever with the reg/induc.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:55 am

And 337 is officially on its way back to the US as of 0947Z on 6/29.
 
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Acey559
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:29 am

337 will be headed to ROW for paint after CVG.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:20 am

Acey559 wrote:
337 will be headed to ROW for paint after CVG.


Excellent. Thanks!

I haven't completely been keeping track, but it seems like, of Dean Baldwin's three facilities (ROW, GYR, GUS), Roswell has been painting the most of ATSG's Prime Air aircraft. But all three have been used. I assume it's just a matter of which facility has the most availability at any given time.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:23 am

I just saw the following tracking history for a package of mine:

Latest update: Thursday, Jun 29
5:08 PM Shipment departed from Amazon facility
Seattle, WASHINGTON, US
Carrier: AMZL US, Tracking #: TBAXXXXXXXXXXX
1:53 PM Package has left the carrier facility
Erlanger, KY, US
10:04 AM Package arrived at a carrier facility
Erlanger, KY, US
1:48 AM Package has left seller facility and is in transit to carrier
Whitestown, IN, US


Looks like confirmation that Amazon is doing package sorting at CVG. (CVG is located near Erlanger, Kentucky and some of the addresses for airport business are in Erlanger (Comair was for instance.))
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:45 am

Well, they are indeed doing a sort there these days, but they initiated a sort to sort stuff between aircraft. This kind of shipment actually could have been done in the old days at ILN. That is, it leaves the DC (Distribution Center) at Whitestown, IN, goes to the airport, gets on a ULD which gets on a plane and which ends up in SEA, where it is broken down and delivered to the appropriate Sorting Center. From the sorting center, in this case, it was given to the organic Amazon local delivery service (the other two options being that it might be given to a local last-mile 3rd party delivery service (like OnTrack, Lasership, etc.), or delivered by Amazon to individual USPS DDUs for final mile delivery by USPS; all 3 types are options at the Sorting Center).

And you are correct that in the Amazon system (and the USPS tracking), anything that passes through the hub at CVG is going to be identified as going through "Erlanger, KY".

Remember that before they started sorting at CVG, they would swap full pallets (or other ULDs) between planes at ILN (and for a while at CVG). That is, the DCs would deliver to say, TPA, where a local contractor would build pallets (or other ULDs) by destination airport to go on the plane. So 3 pallets from TPA might be going to ABE, while one would be going to ONT, and four to SCK, etc., etc. When the aircraft arrived at ILN, the pallets would be unloaded from the TPA aircraft and put on the proper departing aircraft without being broken down. So the four from TPA to SCK would join up with say, 5 from ABE to SCK, etc. It was a comparatively-simple operation because only full pallets and cans, built at the origin, would be swapped at the "hub".

This is still what happens, for example, with any flight that doesn't touch CVG: ONT-CLT-ABE-ONT, ABE-DFW-ABE, SKF-BWI-SKF, SCK-BWI-SCK, SCK-PHX-BWI-SCK. All those flights are loading and unloading full ULDs built at the origin airport.

Amazon is moving from military-style pallets to cans. So now, some of the cans built at the origin are emptied at CVG and the individual packages within are sorted and placed in new cans at the hub. This takes longer than just swapping ULDs among aircraft, and the time on the ground at the hub reflects that. Prior to the activation of the sort, packages could originate within driving distance of ILN/CVG and were usually organized by destination at the DC, so they could be added easily to the proper departing pallet as those were built at the hub the same way they were at any other origin airport. Because they are building ULDs at CVG with individual packages out of cans off the aircraft, it probably makes sense that most of what drives to CVG now probably just gets added to the sort like anything else, and stuffed into the appropriate can just like packages off the airplanes. But it doesn't have to be.

So, while this particular tracking history doesn't prove that they are sorting individual packages at CVG, it is certainly cool. And the package was indeed probably dumped into the sort now that they have one.

This operation has come a long way in a very short time. The next few months are going to see very quick additional growth, so it will be fun to watch.

Hope this helps.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:51 pm

Acey559 wrote:
337 will be headed to ROW for paint after CVG.


And on its way to ROW it is... http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N337AZ
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:30 pm

Acey559 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Speaking of 353 and the Fleet Status Page: What's UP with that a/c? Been sitting in ILN for almost 9 days.

Entered revenue service on 6/14. Flew fewer than 6 days, then back to ILN on 6/20, where it's been ever since...


Magic 8-ball says that it's on the OpSpecs but undergoing a dual engine change right now. Estimated to enter service on the 3rd.


Magic 8-ball was correct insofar as it flew from ILN-CVG on the 3rd, apparently to re-enter service after the engine change.

Then it flew back from CVG to ILN on the 4th, where it now sits.

Oh, well.

The rest of the CAM converted aircraft do seem to be performing pretty-reliably after ILN exorcises the post-conversion gremlins. I'm sure that will (eventually) be the case with 353. But apparently not today.
 
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yochai
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:47 pm

N372AA is flying to ILN-TLV tonight for freighter conversion...due in TLV 06JUL 0630Z
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:49 pm

Awesome. It has been in ILN since the end of March, so glad to see it on its way.
 
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BOEING777EK
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:54 pm

yochai wrote:
N372AA is flying to ILN-TLV tonight for freighter conversion...due in TLV 06JUL 0630Z
Is N372AA going to Prime Air?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:35 am

BOEING777EK wrote:
yochai wrote:
N372AA is flying to ILN-TLV tonight for freighter conversion...due in TLV 06JUL 0630Z
Is N372AA going to Prime Air?


It is one of three CAM conversions that aren't publicly-designated as anything yet. But they may find their way to Amazon. Or not. I'm sure it is currently being discussed, or at least has been offered at some point.

When 372AA gets to TLV, there will be five aircraft there being converted for CAM:
N370AA (w/winglets) (at TLV 12/29/16)
N395CM (formerly N378AN) - (w/winglets) (at TLV 2/4/17)
N386AA (to be N396CM) (no winglets) (at TLV 2/27/17)
N382AN (w/winglets) (at TLV 4/06/16)
and now N372AA (w/winglets) (should arrive TLV by 7/8/17 or so)

As more-fully-discussed below, it is expected that 395CM and 396CM will go to ATI after conversion. The rest is not shared publicly at this point.

There are also at least two more aircraft that I am aware may be headed to TLV for CAM in the next couple of months.

Once N337AZ leaves ROW in about 10 days with its new post-conversion Amazon Prime paint job and goes into service at ATI, ATI will have fulfilled its contractual requirement to lease 8 767-300 freighters to Amazon Prime Air and operate same for them. Similarly, ATI and ABX are currently operating 6 767-200 routes each for Amazon, for a total of 12, which fulfills their contractual obligations. 12 + 8 = 20 freighters, which was the contract total (8 and 12).

However, as I actually believe that Amazon Prime Air wants the ATSG subsidiaries to provide aircraft for and to operate 20 routes for Amazon, as opposed to 20 specific aircraft, operating those routes will take more than 20 aircraft.

The 767-200 experience is instructive. ATI operates six 767-200 routes. To do this, it employs 7 aircraft. One is a maintenance/breakdown spare. Right now, 791AX is in a c-check at ILN, where it has been since 4/29, and where it will probably be for a while yet. If one of the other ATI 767-200s goes tech, it will have to be covered with subservice (usually from ABX; ABX has enough slack in its 767-200 fleet to do this). ATI's plan was to reduce its need for subservice, which is the reason it has now has one more 767-200 than it does routes. (Until it is fully-employing its 767-300s on Amazon, it can also sometimes cover with one of its 767-300s.)

Similarly, ABX uses a group of more than 6 767-200s to cover its Prime Air assignments. It doesn't designate any aircraft exclusively to Prime Air utilization, although certain of its roughly-18 767-200s service Prime Air a lot more regularly than do others.

And Atlas is currently using 7 aircraft to cover 5 routes plus a hot spare.

So, on the ATI 767-300 side, in order to cover 8 Prime Air 767-300 routes, ATI is expected to bring aboard two 767-300s which will not be painted in Amazon Prime colors or technically be ones that Amazon Prime has dry-leased. They will be ATI-painted aircraft whose primary function is to serve as maintenance spares, but can be used for other things as well. (Meaning Peak, for example, or a new route that Amazon wants to ramp up quickly, or other charter customers, or an increase in Amazon Prime routes beyond the original 20.) Those are presently expected to be N395CM and N396CM, and should be in revenue service by mid-August and early-September, respectively.

Right now, ATI's soon-to-be-8 767-300 fleet is covering 5 routes, plus a hot spare, and so is regularly-employing only 6 aircraft. This is good, because N353AZ, which went into service in mid-June, seems to be having post-conversion teething issues. As Acey pointed out here a few days ago, it operated for a week or so in revenue service, then was pulled from service and sent to ILN for a dual engine change. It came out of engine change on 7/3, and flew to CVG to go into rotation. But it flew back the next day to ILN, where it sits.

We have seen some of the other aircraft require a bit of tinkering shortly after entering post-conversion revenue service at both Atlas and ATI, so this isn't completely-out-of-the-ordinary. But it does show some good stewardship of the operation by Amazon, which isn't overwhelming the carriers with route assignments until the fleet is ready to perform them reliably. I am confident that the next new routes for each carrier will come soon, but not until the assets are in place to perform them as expected.

The current plan for Amazon's use of its dry-leased fleet includes provision for two hot spares. Currently, one is operated by Atlas, and is ready at CVG. The other is operated by ATI, and is ready at ONT. So, if it doesn't add anything to its contract with ATSG, Amazon will presumably have the ATSG carriers running 12 767-200 routes and 7 767-300 routes, plus one 767-300 hot spare. All the aircraft necessary to do this will be in service by the middle of next month.

So...it does seem that ATI has the possibility of expanding the number of routes that it runs for Prime beyond the 12 it has currently contracted-for, and there are three aircraft coming out of conversion -- one now, one in October, and one in January -- that could allow it to do this. However, the possibility of this happening should be evaluated in light of the fact that Atlas has 5 aircraft known to be in conversion, coming on board roughly-monthly in the August-December time frame, plus one more waiting to go for conversion (figure 4-6 months to convert), plus one already-converted aircraft that it bought that is believed to be going through, at GYR, de-mothballing and paint, with its service entry date unclear (could be next week, could be 3 months from now). That's a lot of aircraft becoming ready to run routes, although it stands to reason that Amazon has a good idea of where it is going to put them. So whether ATI gets more really depends on what decisions come out of Amazon's doubtless-constant reevaluation of where it is and where it wants to be. One argument in favor of expanding work for the ATSG carriers is that, all things considered, they went pretty-smoothly from a couple of aircraft in an experiment to a full-fledged roll-out of 20 new routes in less than two years, and should be able smoothly to handle more. I understand that some at Amazon actually expected it to go more smoothly than it did, but I am sure that they now have a better sense of the realities of an operation like this...
 
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yochai
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:40 am

For whatever reason 372 did not arrive in TLV this morning...will keep updating with new times when published
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:05 am

yochai wrote:
For whatever reason 372 did not arrive in TLV this morning...will keep updating with new times when published


Yeah, I noticed that. It's not even showing in the system as an anticipated departure from ILN yet.

And thank you for staying on top of the comings and goings!! We have really come to rely upon you for that information!

This is the one that was a bugger to get from storage at ROW to ILN, with a dual windshield failure enroute and a bunch of stuff prior to even leaving ROW that kept it there for several days beyond its initially-planned departure date. And it was determined somewhere in the process that it would need engines changed at ILN before heading to TLV, which was originally-expected to keep it at ILN for a few days. Then, instead of going to TLV quickly, as apparently had been planned, it stayed in ILN for more than 3 months before what now appears to be its expected departure to TLV. Acey would know whether CAM switched gears and had AMES do a bunch of work on it before sending it to TLV, or whether it just had some essentials fixed and sat around for some other reason.

So far, seems like maybe it's a little snakebit.

Hopefully, it will enjoy its time in Israel and come home refreshed and ready to work hard again.
 
travaz
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:08 pm

Yes A shout out to yochai for all the great info and pictures.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:15 pm

Regarding 372AA, it's now on the schedule for a departure from ILN today.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N372 ... /KILN/LLBG
 
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yochai
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:32 pm

Aircraft is now enroute ILN-TLV and should land just before 0600Z
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:59 am

Brand-new conversion 1181A, which spent about 11 days in MIA following paint at AMA, tried to fly to CVG this afternoon (July 8). It called a Mayday with an engine fire shortly after takeoff from 8L and came back around to 8R. 2 souls aboard, so just the pilots ferrying the aircraft. It levelled about 3000 feet.

Audio at liveatc.net. The MIA tower archive, the July 8 2000Z archive. Departure clearance at 20:29 on the archive. Mayday called at 21:44. One interesting call is when City Police 1, a helicopter in the area, calls in to say that he has the Giant in sight and it is not trailing any smoke. The limitation of liveatc -- that it is monitoring more than one frequency -- is apparent here because many communications with the aircraft aren't recorded. Continues on the subsequent archive 2030Z.
 
boefan
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:10 pm

wjcandee wrote:
GTI currently has 6 in-service Amazon Prime aircraft, but was only covering three routes with them (and one spare) until today. 1181A should be aboard in 2-3 weeks. After that, except for 1709A, which is a wild card, probably no new frames until August, which should see 2-3 more new frames.


De-mothballing, rehab and paint:
1709A (at GYR) (already a freighter)



1709A made a local test flight at GYR on July 8th

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/GTI6312

Image

http://www.visitingphx.com/gp16n1709a.html
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:20 pm

boefan wrote:
1709A made a local test flight at GYR.


Awesome! Looks like it's nearly complete!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:33 am

ATSG announced last week that CAM is going to dry-lease 3 767-300s to Northern Aviation Services for operation by Northern Air Cargo and/or Aloha Air Cargo. These may replace the 767-200s and 767-300s operated by ATSG's airline subsidiaries on an ACMI basis for those carriers. The first dry lease starts in October. This could mean that a currently-operating ABX aircraft (like 226CY, which most often handles the Aloha Cargo service between HNL and LAX) could eventually be transferred to Northern, but more likely this means that N382AN, one of the three heretofore-unassigned in-conversion CAM 767-300s, will be the first one going to Northern (and, hence, not to an expansion of Amazon). 382AN is scheduled for delivery in October, so that dovetails with when the first lease is announced to start. The aircraft due to be out of conversion next after that, N372AA, should be done in January; perhaps that will be going to Northern as well. With so many Atlas aircraft coming on for Prime Air in the next 12 months, it was probably a bit of a stretch to imagine ATI picking up an additional 3 Prime Air aircraft in the same time frame.

On the other hand, 219cy, 220cy and 226cy are the three oddball (Pratt-engined) 767-300s in the ABX fleet, and Northern is leasing 3 aircraft, so... (Less likely because 219 and 220 are generally on DHL, but an interesting thought...)

http://www.atsginc.com/Press-Releases/2 ... 07-05.html
 
Whiplash6
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:58 pm

Does anyone have info on how many shares Amazon owns of ATSG and AAWW currently?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:51 am

Interesting video report on Bloomberg called "Amazon Readies Planes For Prime Day", with the reporter doing a stand up in front of an Atlas 767-300 at SEA, doubtless happily staged by Amazon for the media. As usual, they get the "They have 24 aircraft right now, going up to 40" and the "Look at the Pretty Plane" part correct, and then show that they have no clue about how Amazon actually uses the aircraft and how it fits in with how they use UPS and FedEx. Just totally, completely wrong. And they say 40 by the end of this year (it's actually NEXT year).

But a worthy bit nonetheless. Pretty plane. Good looking reporter dude (who obviously didn't get the job because of his ability to assimilate facts). Not a lot of accurate information. Dave Clark says nice things about ATSG and Atlas. Let's hope they continue to feel that way as the contract negotiations continue and the comments by some frustrated pilots about self-help start to get aggressive again over at APC as Peak approaches (which the company lawyers apparently now look at for fodder for their next injunction application).

I also LOLd at the stentorian delivery of the waaaay-too-serious Brit in London who asks, "Ah mooore and mooore uzahs gonna be AW-dring via ah-LEX-ah?" and then stares annoyedly at the camera as if demanding a response to this very serious question, after which we don't see him again.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2 ... -day-video
 
travaz
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:55 pm

That was interesting but the reporter would make a perfect Ron Burgundy. And your right about the Brit, fortunately he only had the one shot.
 
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BOEING777EK
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:57 pm

wjcandee wrote:
ATSG announced last week that CAM is going to dry-lease 3 767-300s to Northern Aviation Services for operation by Northern Air Cargo and/or Aloha Air Cargo. These may replace the 767-200s and 767-300s operated by ATSG's airline subsidiaries on an ACMI basis for those carriers. The first dry lease starts in October. This could mean that a currently-operating ABX aircraft (like 226CY, which most often handles the Aloha Cargo service between HNL and LAX) could eventually be transferred to Northern, but more likely this means that N382AN, one of the three heretofore-unassigned in-conversion CAM 767-300s, will be the first one going to Northern (and, hence, not to an expansion of Amazon). 382AN is scheduled for delivery in October, so that dovetails with when the first lease is announced to start. The aircraft due to be out of conversion next after that, N372AA, should be done in January; perhaps that will be going to Northern as well. With so many Atlas aircraft coming on for Prime Air in the next 12 months, it was probably a bit of a stretch to imagine ATI picking up an additional 3 Prime Air aircraft in the same time frame.

On the other hand, 219cy, 220cy and 226cy are the three oddball (Pratt-engined) 767-300s in the ABX fleet, and Northern is leasing 3 aircraft, so... (Less likely because 219 and 220 are generally on DHL, but an interesting thought...)

http://www.atsginc.com/Press-Releases/2 ... 07-05.html
N372AA is going to Air Transport International (ATI) and the registration will be N379CX after conversion
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:00 pm

BOEING777EK wrote:
N372AA is going to Air Transport International (ATI) and the registration will be N379CX after conversion


Awesome info! Thanks!

I wonder what ATI is going to use it for, if 395CM and 396CM are already going there as the Amazon breakdown/maintenance spares. New customer, maybe? Or something is in flux with the aircraft allocation.

Assuming that Amazon is covered for now with the number of dry-leased aircraft already carrying AZ tail numbers, and that ATI wants two breakdown/maintenance spares for Amazon, there are three extra 767-300s going through conversion for CAM. If 379CX is definitely going to ATI, it will be interesting to see what the reason for that is.
 
MajMattMason
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:39 pm

wjcandee wrote:
BOEING777EK wrote:
N372AA is going to Air Transport International (ATI) and the registration will be N379CX after conversion


Awesome info! Thanks!

I wonder what ATI is going to use it for, if 395CM and 396CM are already going there as the Amazon breakdown/maintenance spares. New customer, maybe? Or something is in flux with the aircraft allocation.

Assuming that Amazon is covered for now with the number of dry-leased aircraft already carrying AZ tail numbers, and that ATI wants two breakdown/maintenance spares for Amazon, there are three extra 767-300s going through conversion for CAM. If 379CX is definitely going to ATI, it will be interesting to see what the reason for that is.


Don't be surprised to this tail (379CX) or others for that matter, go to ATI only to see them leave when the ultimate destination customer is ready to receive the aircraft. It has happened before.

On other AMZ news, it's being reported that Prime Day revenue has surpassed last years Black Friday and Cyber Monday combined.

PS thanks WJ for your reasoned and informative posts here and on APC.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:04 pm

MajMattMason wrote:
Don't be surprised to this tail (379CX) or others for that matter, go to ATI only to see them leave when the ultimate destination customer is ready to receive the aircraft. It has happened before.

On other AMZ news, it's being reported that Prime Day revenue has surpassed last years Black Friday and Cyber Monday combined.

PS thanks WJ for your reasoned and informative posts here and on APC.


Interesting! Thanks! (And thanks for the nice words... :D )
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:30 am

I wonder, why was DFW-PHX discontinued? I have an order coming from the Fort Worth fulfillment center, and because there is no way to efficiently route the order on Prime Air to PHX and the two-day guarantee cannot be met using only ground transportation, it appears Amazon was forced to use UPS 2nd Day Air for this order. It has been a while since I got a Prime order via UPS 2nd Day Air, since most of my long distance orders now go via Prime Air and get delivered by the USPS or more recently by Amazon Logistics.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:23 pm

1337Delta764 wrote:
I wonder, why was DFW-PHX discontinued? I have an order coming from the Fort Worth fulfillment center, and because there is no way to efficiently route the order on Prime Air to PHX and the two-day guarantee cannot be met using only ground transportation, it appears Amazon was forced to use UPS 2nd Day Air for this order. It has been a while since I got a Prime order via UPS 2nd Day Air, since most of my long distance orders now go via Prime Air and get delivered by the USPS or more recently by Amazon Logistics.


I'm thinking that Prime Day volume may be one reason. It isn't necessarily illogical for a package to go from DFW to the sorting hub (CVG) and then get on a plane to PHX. However, on a two-day delivery, there is also no reason that that can't go by ground. It's about 15 hours nonstop from Dallas to Phoenix by road, which is fast enough for two-day delivery. FedEx Ground uses team longhaul drivers so they don't have to stop and rest; I assume that UPS has the same kind of capability. 1100 miles is beyond what Amazon currently does in-house by road, but no reason they might not get there someday. I would be curious to see whether your "2 Day Air" UPS package actually ends up going over the road, which you can usually tell from the tracking history.
Last edited by wjcandee on Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:30 pm

So Officially Snakebit aircraft 1181A tried to fly to Allentown from MIA this morning at 1200Z. This is the aircraft that got an Engine Fire indication after liftoff from MIA five days ago and had to return. I understand that, while there, it then got hit by a truck, so was there ever since. Oy. Today, it was ready to try again, but during climbout from MIA at about 4000 feet, they got a Main Cargo Door indication, and, after a couple of minutes and a brief discussion with Departure, decided to return to MIA.

1181 did manage to take off again about 1445Z and made it to ABE (Yay!). They're going to try to do ABE-RFD in a little while. Fingers crossed. (This flight is in addition to earlier-today's ABE-RFD on ABX, so may be an extra section for Prime Day. Or not. Either way, flight number is a 4500-number, which means an unusual Amazon movement (repositioning, cover/protect flight, etc.). )
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:06 am

wjcandee wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
I wonder, why was DFW-PHX discontinued? I have an order coming from the Fort Worth fulfillment center, and because there is no way to efficiently route the order on Prime Air to PHX and the two-day guarantee cannot be met using only ground transportation, it appears Amazon was forced to use UPS 2nd Day Air for this order. It has been a while since I got a Prime order via UPS 2nd Day Air, since most of my long distance orders now go via Prime Air and get delivered by the USPS or more recently by Amazon Logistics.


I'm thinking that Prime Day volume may be one reason. It isn't necessarily illogical for a package to go from DFW to the sorting hub (CVG) and then get on a plane to PHX. However, on a two-day delivery, there is also no reason that that can't go by ground. It's about 15 hours nonstop from Dallas to Phoenix by road, which is fast enough for two-day delivery. FedEx Ground uses team longhaul drivers so they don't have to stop and rest; I assume that UPS has the same kind of capability. 1100 miles is beyond what Amazon currently does in-house by road, but no reason they might not get there someday. I would be curious to see whether your "2 Day Air" UPS package actually ends up going over the road, which you can usually tell from the tracking history.


Also, FWIW UPS has a major hub out of DFW. (I forget if its a 2nd day air hub, or a 3 day select hub.) In any case, this likely means that Amazon gets a better than usual rate out of UPS for packages originating there, as they are handled at least one less time than a package originating anywhere in the system.

I'm sure Amazon is putting their Prime Air flights on routes where they save the most money and that depends on the rates they get from other carriers.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:56 pm

So 337AZ is leaving ROW today to head to ILN to prepare for service with ATI. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N337AZ
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:01 am

wjcandee wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
I wonder, why was DFW-PHX discontinued? I have an order coming from the Fort Worth fulfillment center, and because there is no way to efficiently route the order on Prime Air to PHX and the two-day guarantee cannot be met using only ground transportation, it appears Amazon was forced to use UPS 2nd Day Air for this order. It has been a while since I got a Prime order via UPS 2nd Day Air, since most of my long distance orders now go via Prime Air and get delivered by the USPS or more recently by Amazon Logistics.


I'm thinking that Prime Day volume may be one reason. It isn't necessarily illogical for a package to go from DFW to the sorting hub (CVG) and then get on a plane to PHX. However, on a two-day delivery, there is also no reason that that can't go by ground. It's about 15 hours nonstop from Dallas to Phoenix by road, which is fast enough for two-day delivery. FedEx Ground uses team longhaul drivers so they don't have to stop and rest; I assume that UPS has the same kind of capability. 1100 miles is beyond what Amazon currently does in-house by road, but no reason they might not get there someday. I would be curious to see whether your "2 Day Air" UPS package actually ends up going over the road, which you can usually tell from the tracking history.


According to UPS' transit time maps, UPS Ground between Fort Worth and Phoenix is 3 days.

And apparently by the tracking it went by air with a stopover in ABQ (this is typical of UPS 2nd Day Air packages that go through DFW).
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:54 am

1337Delta764 wrote:
wjcandee wrote:

According to UPS' transit time maps, UPS Ground between Fort Worth and Phoenix is 3 days.

And apparently by the tracking it went by air with a stopover in ABQ (this is typical of UPS 2nd Day Air packages that go through DFW).


Cool! Thanks for the update! And that's really interesting about UPS! You inspired me to look up FedEx, and it's 2 days by FedEx Ground, doubtless due to the aforementioned team drivers...
 
FlyBTV
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:02 am

wjcandee wrote:
1337Delta764 wrote:
FedEx Ground uses team longhaul drivers so they don't have to stop and rest; I assume that UPS has the same kind of capability. 1100 miles is beyond what Amazon currently does in-house by road, but no reason they might not get there someday. I would be curious to see whether your "2 Day Air" UPS package actually ends up going over the road, which you can usually tell from the tracking history.


Yes, UPS now utilizes team drivers like FedEx. That was an addition made during the last labor contract and a direct response to FedEx's competition. Prior to a few years ago, it was never done at UPS. On some routes they use single drivers and simply set meet points to exchange trailers - each driver will swap trailers and then return back to their hub (which was traditionally almost exclusively what they did). The team drivers were more about cutting transit times in certain markets to be competitive against FedEx Ground, but with UPS's integrated model it also certantly benefits air going by ground.
 
FlyBTV
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:07 am

1337Delta764 wrote:
According to UPS' transit time maps, UPS Ground between Fort Worth and Phoenix is 3 days.

And apparently by the tracking it went by air with a stopover in ABQ (this is typical of UPS 2nd Day Air packages that go through DFW).


In looking at UPS maps, exceeding ground transit times does not always mean the package went by air. It seems to have in this case, but as UPS send a lot of their long-haul (defined as 600+ miles, IIRC) ground via rail, in many markets they also operate a few exclusively over-the-road truck segments to handle 2nd Day Air. A great example is when I ship a 2-Day Air package to southern FL from DC, UPS trucks it. However, the same package going via ground takes three days since it goes by rail rather than truck.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:19 am

FlyBTV: Thanks for those interesting and very-informative posts. I had wondered about the TOFC component of UPS Ground and whether that restricted their ability to move 2nd Day Air by ground. You explained it perfectly.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:32 pm

While I like two day delivery really well, I often order things that are not needed for the next week or two. I assume that Amazon's delivery system is such that they see no real savings in slower delivery for some items. Is that so? Could they make a little more profit by giving me points for slower delivery, using the points then for occasional next day or same day delivery?
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:13 pm

Cap: They do. If you opt for the regular delivery, you will sometimes get things like $5 to use at Amazon Instant Video or Prime Pantry or whatever. It can add up pretty fast. You can check in the shipping options and they will tell you what they are. Most of the time, if the item is local, it comes in two or three days anyway, even though they give themselves five to seven days. If it's far away, it's going to come by ground and then it won't get there right away.
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:37 pm

Note that even if the item is available locally, there may be a delay in processing the order if the No Rush option is selected, since Amazon gives priority to processing orders that have faster shipping speeds selected.

Also, it seems that Amazon likes to hold a lot of the local inventory for Same-day or One-day deliveries. A lot of my Two-day orders for example ship out of the Inland Empire of Southern California (especially Eastvale or Moreno Valley). I highly doubt that the majority of my orders aren't stocked locally.
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MEMbrain
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:04 pm

Uh Oh. Amazon workers in ABE no-showed in masse the other day to protest Amazon's low pay and terrible work environment. Only five rappers showed to work and delays were long.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:20 pm

MEMbrain wrote:
Uh Oh. Amazon workers in ABE no-showed in masse the other day to protest Amazon's low pay and terrible work environment. Only five rappers showed to work and delays were long.


Yep, the delays were so long that all flights for the last two weeks except one have gone out within an hour-ish of schedule, like they always do.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:25 pm

MEMbrain wrote:
Uh Oh. Amazon workers in ABE no-showed in masse the other day to protest Amazon's low pay and terrible work environment. Only five rappers showed to work and delays were long.


:lol:
 
N212R
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:56 pm

They Were Expendable - title of Bezos' new book
 
travaz
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:11 am

I thought these people worked for DHL? Hi I got hired yesterday and i think I will protest my job tomorrow.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Growing

Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:27 am

travaz wrote:
I thought these people worked for DHL?


Yeah, not at the outstations. Initially, during Aerosmith, an ATSG subsidiary was responsible for all the ILN and outstation ground work. It did much of it in-house, with direct employees of the ATSG subsidiary. At LVIA, the airport board wanted to be involved and to make some cheddar being responsible for everything. So they made available an underused building that they owned that was a tug train haul from the planes, and acted as the subcontractor to the ATSG subsidiary as the service provider. So all the initial pallet-builders and pallet-breakers-down and loaders and tug drivers were all direct employees of LVIA. LVIA acted as the subcontractor to the ATSG subsidiary that had the contract with AFS (Amazon). The prices LVIA negotiated with ATSG for their package of services were the prices LVIA negotiated, and the salaries LVIA paid their direct employees were determined solely by LVIA.

With the switch from ILN to CVG as the "hub", the ATSG subsidiary terminated all of its ground-handling employees at ILN that had been brought on for Aerosmith, and Amazon terminated the portion of the Aerosmith-era contract that hired the ATSG subsidiary to provide ground handling at ILN. AFS (or a similar Amazon subsidiary) then contracted directly with DHL for those services. DHL hired and trained and deploys the loaders, sorters, can-builders, etc. at CVG, which makes sense because those personnel are all operating on its ramp and in its building(s). The outstation arrangements didn't change.

So that's sort of the answer to your question. And if anyone's interested, here's more:

Prior to the move to CVG, the RFD station had opened. Instead of expanding the ATSG-subsidiary's contract to provide services there, Amazon instead directly hired Pinnacle Logistics out of Dallas to do the complete package of ground services there. The airplane marshallers, loaders, pallet-builders, etc., are all Pinnacle employees, and Pinnacle leased the space from the airport in which it does its work. Pinnacle charges Amazon a schedule of prices it negotiated with Amazon, and Pinnacle hires, trains, etc., its employees to do the work.

When BWI opened around the time of the CVG cutover, Pinnacle was again hired by Amazon to do a similar menu of ground services.

Now, the pilot rumour is that Pinnacle is going to take over at least some of the ground handling services at ABE that are currently being provided by LVIA at a profit to LVIA. That's a pilot rumour, but a widely-held one at the moment. I haven't seen any official confirmation of it. Pinnacle has experience in some areas that may be needed (going forward as volume increases) that the LVIA management may not, and that may be the reason for the change, if there is one. I don't remember whether they are also doing ground handling at SKF, but they are Texas-based and have facilities at DFW, SAT, IAH, etc., so they certainly were a candidate to provide that service. Frankly, this is one area in which ATSG was doubtless hoping to make some money as the network expanded that they are in fact not.

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