CX747
Topic Author
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Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Tue Dec 05, 2000 12:39 pm

Now, before every Airbus fan jumps down my throat, let it be known that I am just relaying an article to the forum. I thought with all the hoopla surrounding the Qantas A3XX and 747-400LR order it would only be proper to remember the "300" seaters. The information comes from this weeks Aviation Weekly and Space Technology

"777 ORDERS SET RECORD, RAISING PRESSURE ON AIRBUS: ILFC and Japan Airlines swell Boeing's order book for the widebody twinjets. Airbus Industrie claims to hold its own, but industry observers aren't so sure."

"As of last Thursday, the company had booked 113 orders valued at more than 18 billion. Thats a record number for a single year and includes a frim order for 33 of the twinjets from ILFC"

"Competing against the various 777 models is the Airbus A330/340, according to industry observers. Airbus insists all models of the A330 go head to head with the 777 and are competing very favorably. Analysts dipute the statement and believe Airbus can legitimately claim only very limited success. 'In the contest against the A330-300 and A340, Boeing appears to be winning,' said Teal Group analyst Richard Aboulafia."

"Some industry observers still believe the momentum has shifted back to Boeing's favor in the battle for 'mini-jumbo' long range widebody aircraft market share."

Just for the forums information, all models of the B777 ordered this year stand at 113. All models for both the (86) A330 and (17) A340 stand at 103. The article also implies that the A330 total should not be held up to the 777 totals. 30-35 of the A330s ordered where for the A330-300 and they should be the only ones tallied. What the article went on to say was that having the 777 go up against the A330 on all fronts is unfair as the A330-200 does not truly compete against the 777 but the 767. Just some food for thought. I understand that the A3XX is a new machine that has not even been launched yet, but I find it remarkable that as more talk circles upon the need for "Super Jumbos" that the 777 a "300" seater out sells both the 747 and A340 and also beats the 747-400s total sales in one year record.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Tue Dec 05, 2000 12:52 pm

I apologize but I forgot to add the 777's sales breakdown. 48 of the 113 airframes are orders for the 777-200LR and -300ER. Does anybody happen to know where the A340-500/600 orders total stands at? It would be interesting to compare how many 777LRs have sold in half a year to A340NGs in 3-4.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
watewate
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Tue Dec 05, 2000 1:01 pm

777 is clearly ahead of 340 in terms of sales this year. But how's 767 fairing against 330? I think 330 is doing quite well. It is interesting too see how 340 is struggling against 777.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Tue Dec 05, 2000 1:26 pm

Thanks for this post CX747!

Some intereseting things indeed.

 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Tue Dec 05, 2000 3:10 pm

CX747,

Here are the order numbers for the A340NG and 777LR programs:

A340-500
8 - ILFC
6 - Emirates Airlines
5 - Air Canada
5 - Singapore Airlines
24 - Total

A340-600
10 - Lufthansa
10 - Virgin Atlantic
9 - Flightlease
6 - Aerolineas Argentinas
5 - China Eastern*
5 - ILFC
2 - EgyptAir
47 - Total

A340NG total: 71


777-200LR
3 - EVA Air
3 - Total

777-300LR
10 - Air France
10 - G.E. Capital
8 - ILFC
8 - Japan Airlines
6 - All Nippon Airways
4 - EVA Air
46 - Total

777LR total: 49

Definitely interesting to see, considering the time these programs are in existence. I would say that these are the orders that could be predicted at the start of each program. It will be where the outcome is less certain that the real winner will emerge.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Udo
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Tue Dec 05, 2000 6:16 pm

No new news indeed for anybody who always follows the orders over a year.
Despite many people insist in a direct competition between the B777 and the A330/340 family I don't agree. Some models of both families cannot be compared just because of their different size. Comparing B777-300s to A330-200s is just nonsense. And both families could never be placed with any airline in direct competition as some airlines just have very special needs.
So any statement that "our family sells better than yours" is ridiculous and I aim that at both Toulouse and Seattle.

Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
Joni
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Tue Dec 05, 2000 6:21 pm


The points raised are good ones, but the note that 332 doesn't compete against 777 isn't the whole story. 777-300 is larger than the currently-in-use 333/343, so the widebodies Airbus currently manufactures only compete with 772, and 772 can hold its own very well against those models.

That Airbus only has planes up to 772 means they have a significant hole in their product line and one easily understands the drive to build 345/6 and A3xx.

 
DatamanA340
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One Thing You Must Remember

Tue Dec 05, 2000 6:24 pm


Airbus has plenty of A320/330/340 orders that isn't delivered yet. It's like shipbuilding competetion between Korea and Japan, that one company gets enough jobs, and stay beside for some moments. Airbus's sales went high in 1998 and 1999, and Airbus has still smaller building ablility. That made difference of sales of A300 and B767.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 2:58 am

It is interesting that a lot of current P&W and RR Trent 777 operators except those mentioned have not gone for these new GE90 powered 777LR models? Current 777 operators EgyptAir and Singapore Airlines switched to the RR Trent powered A340NG.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 2:59 am

It is interesting that a lot of current P&W and RR Trent 777 operators except those mentioned have not gone for these new GE90 powered 777LR models? Current 777 operators EgyptAir and Singapore Airlines switched to the RR Trent powered A340NG.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 2:59 am

It is interesting that a lot of current P&W and RR Trent 777 operators except those mentioned have not gone for these new GE90 powered 777LR models? Current 777 operators EgyptAir and Singapore Airlines switched to the RR Trent powered A340NG.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 3:43 am

I think that nobody on this forum is in doubt that Boeing is the larger airline producer, and that their salesmen therefore must sell more planes. And that puts pressure on Airbus. If they didn't do exactly that, then Boeing would soon have to "shrink". Or Airbus would stand in front of a huge production expansion program, which would take several years.
If they over a substantial period sold the same number of planes, then Boeing would soon turn that to their favour simply because they would be able to deliver in a foreseeable future while the Airbus order book would just grow fat telling customers about next available delivery position in 5-6-7 years time. Should that happen, then on short term Airbus would have no other choise but increase their product prices in order to get rid of some customers and increase the profit.
Still Airbus is the only one to put pressure on Boeing, and that's exactly what they do.
That's how business is, and it doesn't matter if it is Coca-Cola vs. Pepsi, or it is airliners.
That said, it is not enough to draw conclusions on sales during 11 months only. The data is perfectly valid, but only for adding to older data. Had it been cola, then 11 months would be more than sufficient, but only because a cola can is not produced to last for thirty years or more.
Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
chiawei
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 3:55 am

One should also look at policitcal pressure from U.S. as one of the main reason that 777 is doing as well.

U.S. has sucessfully push 777 and 744F down the throat of EVA and CI.

Japan is heavily involved in 777 program, plus trade imbalance is always a problem as well. Hence it should not be a suprised too see that there are no Airbus other than A320 in ANA/JAL fleet.

 
prebennorholm
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 4:44 am

Chiawei wrote:
-------------------------------
One should also look at policitcal pressure from U.S. as one of the main reason that 777 is doing as well....
-------------------------------

That's right. That's also how business is. But there is hardly any difference between political backup in Europe and in the US.
And since the 777 is partially a Japanese product, then of course the 777 will have an advantage in Japan.
The Jap subcontractors and Jap airline companies may be fully private and independant companies, but then they are probably partially owned by the same pension funds or such.
Same thing in Spain (but opposite). They fight a huge unemployment problem and are in desparate need for more hightech work to do, such as Airbus structures. I will be very surprised to see Iberia buy new Boeing planes.
Some people call it "political pressure". They are of course right. Other people say that "birds don't make sh*t in their own nest". In the type of world, in which we are living, I think that they are equally right.
Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Adria
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 5:14 am

Last year Airbus had more orders and maybe this year Boeing will have more orders(maybe!).Lucky Boeing
 
Delta772
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 5:25 am

Chiawei and Prebennorholm:

Maybe airlines make decisions based on their own national interests. I wouldn't argue with that. But you have to admit that Air France is to be admired for choosing 10 773ER's over A345 or A346. Perhaps the sole supplier RR engines on the Airbus was the deciding factor (often ignored in all the ranting and raving about Boeing's poor judgement in having a sole powerplant supplier on the 772LR and 773ER). Or maybe AF simply chose the better plane for their needs. Either way, for the national airline of the country widely regarded as the biggest advocate and supporter of the Airbus consortium to choose a Boeing product in direct competition with an Airbus product, in my humble opinion, is a big deal indeed. Is this not akin to if American, Delta, or United ordered A330's, A340's, or A3XX's? Imagine the outcry over that.

Just something I've been thinking about.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 6:24 am

If Boeing cancels this exclusive engine deal with GE and brings P&W and RR back into the 777 program you will see American, Delta, and United ordering these new 777X models.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 6:28 am

If Airbus had as an option on the new A340-500/600 the GE CF6 series you would have seen Air France go for these aircraft. Same thing would happen if there is a P&W 4000 series engine available you would see a large P&W customer go for it.
 
b757300
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 7:05 am

Tedski,

I don't think aircraft purchases are 100% based on engines. If I remember correctly, Delta has both GE & PW engines on their 767's while their 777's are RR powered. Is it a factor? Yes, it is, but not the most important one.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Delta772

Wed Dec 06, 2000 7:10 am

Yeah, Delta772, of course when AF orders 772, then it's because that is the plane they need, the plane they want, and the best plane for the task. Just like when they buy 332s, then that's the plane they need.
It is in fact strange to notice that all three flag carriers of the three major Airbus producing countries, AF, BA and LH, ALL have a mixed fleets with substantial numbers of Boeing planes. BA has almost only Boeing even if they lately have ordered a substantial number of Airbus planes.
BTW, I have flown on countless AF and BA 737s and 757s, and never an AF or BA Airbus plane yet, but that's purely incidental.
But there certainly seems to be a difference out there:
When for instance BA orders Boeing planes, then the workers in Chester don't pop the Champagne bottles, but they don't mourn either. And that's it, game over.
And when a US carrier chooses a Boeing plane, then nobody notices.
But every time a US carrier buys an Airbus plane, then there is a terrible crying in the US press. And the "guilty" airline must oppollogize over and over again - "we got a deal which we could not resist - our shareholders would kill us if we turned it down - besides that at least the engines are (partially) American, and they alone create x thousand man/years work". Etc. etc. It goes on for years. Congressmen are called to hearings - the guilty airline company shall be refused daytime slots at all hubs in 48 states etc.
It's nothing really new. Those of us, who remember 30+ years back in time when three US manufacturers almost shared the western world market, we heard the same "fight" going on between Washington state and California.
Maybe it all began because at least half a dozen US presidents over time have been accused of having secured mainly military orders for their "home state" manufacturer. Of course that was what they all had to promise during their election campaign, and only some of them forgot their promises on election day.
Anyway I think that it will change over time. Ordinary market globalisation will in the end reach America too.
Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 9:20 am

The reason for Delta having both GE CF6s and P&W 4000 series engines on their 767s is that they also have their MD-11s powered by the same P&W engines so it would be easy on maintenance and spare parts. Sticking with one engine manufacturer like Air France did with GE on almost all of their aircraft saves money and training.
 
chiawei
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 10:17 am

Air france's decision to go with 777 is not a suprising. Since AF has been a loyal GE user. Therefore bringing RR powered A345/6 makes no sense.

So both side made dumb mistakes with exclusive engine offers.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 11:59 am

Since it was brought up (and IMO, is a very valid point) that not all models of the 777 compete with all models of the A330/A340, and vice versa, I thought we could break it down a little. I have already posted the A340NG vs. 777LR numbers, which are direct competitors, so I won't rehash those. After that, the only other direct competitors are A330-300 vs. 777-200 and A340-300 vs. 777-200ER. A complete customer list of these models would be too long to list here, so I'll just post the total order numbers:

A330-300: 156
vs.
777-200: 91

A340-300: 209
vs.
777-200ER: 377

I hope that helps the discussion.


Chiawei,
As Prebennorhom already mentioned, when looking at political pressure, it would be naive to look only at the U.S. side. I am certainly not going to say that U.S. politics have not played a role in Boeing orders (El Al, Vietnam, etc.). However, has it just been coincidence that every Airbus order from China has been announced at the same time the French president has been visiting? Also, one side that seems to always get lost is the negative aspect of U.S. politics. Do you think Iran Air will order Boeings in the forseeable future? Or Iraqi Airways? How about the coincidence that China Airlines reversed their LOI for 777s and ordered A340s when relations between Taiwan and the U.S. were very strained? This despite the obvious intense political pressure from the U.S. This is a very dangerous arena to get into, and I don't think either B or A supports would want to get caught in the middle.

Tedski,
I believe you're putting WAY too much emphasis on the value of engine commonality. Although a definite consideration for any puchase, being 1/4 the total price, engine selection almost always comes after the airframe has been decided on. IMO, it is ridiculous to consider that, say AA, would order a completely new airframe (A340NG), with all the associated costs of training and spares, just to have an engine with a common family heritage as their Trent 800s. I'm not saying there isn't a possibilty they won't (although I do consider it only .000001% probable), just that engine choice won't be the deciding factor. Also, remember that not only has ANA and JAL switched engines going from 777s to 777LRs, but Lufthansa, Virgin, EgyptAir and China Eastern are all going from GE to RR when chosing A340NGs to completment their current A340s.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Sets Sales Record, Pressure On Airbus.

Wed Dec 06, 2000 9:33 pm

I believe EgyptAir's 777s are P&W powered and also Virgin is a Rolls Royce customer where some of their 747-200s are powered by RB211s. I wonder also if those current A340-200/300 operators are not happy with the takeoff performance of the CFM56-5C4 engines.