Topic Author
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 6:19 am

Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Fri Dec 08, 2000 9:12 am

I am really tired of predatory practice, and I'd like to cite some specific examples from the big boys that like to torment the commercial aviation industry.
Case #1
Delta Airlines vs. AirTran.
AirTran announces new service to Knoxville and Richmond, and what does Delta do? They increase the presence in the market by 300%. Passengers are now given lots of choices for a 3 month period. AirTran and Delta with the same fares, and Delta with more non-stops. AirTran is forced to leave these cities, and the citizens are now greeted by a huge schedule cutback by Delta along with higher prices. I feel bad for the citizens.

Case #2
American Airlines vs. The World
American is probably the best example of how vilanous and savage a big airline can be. Legend (which has recently suspended operations) has probably had the worst shake of any airline out there. Before Legend started up, you had American fighting every route Legend wanted to operate. American had little prsence in Love Field, and wanted to keep every airline out. After Legend was started, American started its own airline out of Love flying to Legend's destinations. They used special F100s in "executive style" and competed directly with Legend. American slashed fares and added flights. I am prone to ask why American saw Legend as such a threat? Could a few Dc-9s really destroy the airlines profits? The whole case made me think of a big porcupine. American is unwilling to start the service on its own, but when someone else does, they shoot out quills to kill the new airline.

I think airline behavior is awful by the big boys, and I think that this needs to be fixed by Congress. If it is not, someday we will just have these 6 operating non-stop flights with poor service and reliability, and don't the American People deserve more from the airlines they support?
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2000 3:40 am

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Fri Dec 08, 2000 9:46 am

Please, get your facts straight about what happened with AA and Legend. When AA and the other carriers moved to DFW in the 70's from DAL, it was under the assumption that DAL would close to commercial traffic. WN fought to remain at DAL because the were and intrastate carrier at the time. When WN wanted to fly to MSY, the Wright Amendment legislation was passed to protect DFW from DAL. This may seem trivial now, the history between Dallas and Forth Worth agreeing and supporting a common airport made the situation tense. Fort Worth did not want to lose "access" to the region's gateway as had been done to Ft. Worth Meacham Airport and FW Greater Southwest Airport, both of which competed and lost to DAL.

As a result, carriers funnelled a ton of capital into the development of DFW, most notably of course AA. Then T. Allen McArtor has a novel idea to start an airline that caters to Dallas businessmen flying first class, long-haul service from Dallas Love Field, virtually in the heart of where most of these people live and work. Needless to say, these are very coveted passengers of AA's.

The legal fight was between AA and Ft. Worth because they felt that this startup was in violation of the agreements signed by the airlines and the two cities when DFW was built. As you know, legal battles ensued and Legend eventually won because AA dropped the case and decided to launch flights from DAL as well using converted 56-seat Fokkers.

However, rising fuel prices got the worst of Legend more than AA did. AA and Legend competed in only two markets, LGA and LAX. AA never undercut fares to drive Legend out. Legend did not hedge fuel purchases and they took a detour from their business plan and offered lower advanced purchase fares to attract customers. I am an AA stockholder and I would expect nothing less than my company protecting its market share. It's called capitalism. Every other industry in America has similar practices so it's not unique to airlines. Established airlines are not just going to allow any startup airline to take their business as a goodwill gesture. That would be suicide. Nobody has a problem when AA and UA compete against each other, why should this be any different?

The last thing we need is Congress and the Federal Government sticking their nose into the day to day operations of the airline industry. We gave that up twenty years ago.
My wife can't wrestle, but you should see her box.
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 1:54 am

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Fri Dec 08, 2000 9:50 am

Dont Foget SWA fought Many battles with the big airlines....only the strong will survive.
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Fri Dec 08, 2000 10:11 am

Redraider your creative altering of the LUV field history and Antichrist Airlines (AA) is flawed.

AA only began operations when the court ruled against American Airlines and Ft. Worth.

In FACT AA was a plantiff in the case and financed the lawyers. Legend was the defendent along with Dallas depending on which of the numerous cases you look at.

AA additionally leased space they told the city council would be used for classroom and training space. Space the was specifically NOT for flight operations and then started construction on jetways. They then continued to construct jetways when advised by the city they could not. They only stopped when a legal actions were filed against them. Additionally,DAL is the smallest flight operation and field for AA that has not only a station manager but a slew of VPs assigned to it with the sole purpose of destroying Legend.

Additionally, How quick we forget AA invading LCs revenue control computers illegally!

Redraider go back to flying your silver bird but, remember the LUV AA shows for it's employees too...

I guess LIT had pilots that were not over FAA duty rigs when it went down and they were not fatiqued... NOT

I guess AA respects it's pilots and F/As NOT Look at the way management broke the APA contract with the Reno action then manipulated the law so that the APA got screwed... How about the F/A strike 5-6 years ago and managements comments about the FAs and how closely it resembles today...

Looking forward to the next way AA screws itself in the persuit of greed..... Only things is that AA has so many politicians within it's pockets including the next president it only goes to prove the old addage politicians are corrupt and you can buy anyone!
Posts: 5654
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Fri Dec 08, 2000 10:27 am

My $0.02-

Legend was on the right general track, and I presume that there was a commitment for additional working capital which fell through suddenly; else, Legend could/would have done a strategic 11, just as National has done (And as I wish BN had though to try before they ran out of cash completely, back in 1982).

The fuel thing is the big magilla here; I know, after flying Legend once (to LA), that I would willingly (and intended- still intend, to) pay extra for the better service and, of equal or perhaps greater value, the greater convenience of DAL and the separate terminal. Everyone I know who flew them (and I deal in a soundly qualified group) felt the same.

Watch for a re-start with new capital. And, if not, watch for AA to shutter its DAL op's (except for Eagle flights to compete w/ ASA and CoEx), just as soon as Legend's revival chances are gone(assets sold).
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Fri Dec 08, 2000 10:48 am

As my username suggests, I'm somewhat biased about this discussion.

However, I do believe there is significant potential for smaller airlines in the U.S. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that competition is a good thing for everyone. There are many studies of how monopolists typically are very inefficient.

Nonetheless, let's be realistic here. Anyone who wants to go head to head for premium passengers against one of the world's largest airlines (in their own back yard, no less) needs to have their head examined.

There's some strange idea in this country that the major airlines shouldn't be able to react to newcomers in a competitive fashion (please don't argue with me about the definition of competitive). But what about the employees, vendors, businesses, etc. that rely on the major airlines for their well-being? What's most disturbing is that the people making these complaints probably buy their books from Amazon at the expense of local mom-and-pop stores and buy their coffee at Starbucks!
Posts: 334
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Fri Dec 08, 2000 10:51 am

That's capitalism. And that's American Capitalism.

Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 3:03 am

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Fri Dec 08, 2000 12:33 pm

At MSP Northwest is doing exactly what Delta is doing to AirTran to drive them out of the mrket in the Twin cities. To most of Sun Country's major routes Northwest made sure that they stepped up the number of flights and lowered the prices to such cities as Orlando, New York and Las Vegas. What sparked this was when Sun Couuntry released it s numbers two years ago that showed that there sales were more than they expected, Northwest took this as a threat from the Twin Cities based airline that could take away some of Northwest's gates at the main terminal. But now Sun Country has taken Northwest to federal court over antitrust legislation.
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Fri Dec 08, 2000 1:06 pm

Survival of the fittest

No one is in this business for charity. They answer to shareholders. And if it means initiating predatory pricing and shedule to fend off newcomers- so be it. It sucks to be a consumer in this situation, but it's better than gov't regulating when we fly.
Posts: 392
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2000 8:06 pm

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Fri Dec 08, 2000 2:03 pm


I agree with you. You provide a thoughtful and persuasive analysis of the DAL/LEGEND/AA/DFW situation.

Keep it up.

Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2000 5:50 am

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Sat Dec 09, 2000 2:13 am

Here's another one...
American Airlines vs. Vanguard Airlines(And Wichita, Kansas)
A few years ago, Vanguard Airlines provided low-fare service between Dallas/Ft. Worth and Wichita, Kansas. AA lowered fares and increased flights. Finally, Vanguard gave up and ended service to Wichita. Fares shot up sky-high, and now the cheapest ticket to Kansas City is about $288 . Thanks AA!

Best Regards,
Northwest Airlines - Some People Just Know How to Fly
Seattle Ops
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 1999 7:35 am

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Sat Dec 09, 2000 4:38 am

Oh no, here we go again! Let the whining begin!

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Sat Dec 09, 2000 4:41 am

Which is why I only fly Sunburst Airlines.
Topic Author
Posts: 384
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 6:19 am

RE: Sick To Death With The Big Carriers?

Sat Dec 09, 2000 10:49 am

Seattle Ops, I have this hint that you work for American Airlines, could I be right? Your ignorance in this principle is apparent. I love when you say whine, but I bet you've whined a few times when a new airline leaves and prices skyrocket on a ticket to let's say Chicago.

Popular Searches On

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos