N768DH
Topic Author
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Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 2:04 am

hello I just found out that boeing has given the green light to make the next Super jumbo. as you might all ready know it's called ( BWB ) I've listed two websites to where you can learn more about Boeing new super flying wing jumbo.

http://members.home.net/rebid/bldwing.htm

http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/BWB.html

this is the aircraft that will be going head to head with Airbus new A3xxxx aircraft

 
widebody
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 2:32 am

So basically, Boeing have decided to go ahead with this design, despite the fact they have stated on their website that they don't see a need for more than 330 aircraft with 500 seats or more over the next 20 years........despite the fact they have slated Airbus for investing 12 billion to develop the A3XX, when a BLB design could cost many, many billions more to research and certify....despite the fact they have only last night updated their web page with new pictures and details of the 747X and 747 Stretch...............

Makes absolutely no sense to me.........either someone is having a laugh or Condit is taking too much medication........
 
gerardo
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 2:39 am

This is a design idea. We won't see this aircraft in the next 20 years or so. Imagine all the changes at the airports and so on, and so on.

BTW, Boeing really would have to fire the entire marketing department and hire the Airbus marketers  


Regards
Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
teahan
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 3:23 am

Gerardo, the BWB could still use existing runaways and taxiways. Here is a picture of it superimposed over the B747 400:



Jeremiah Teahan
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
watewate
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 3:33 am

It's going to be a tough sell in the beginning. People are just too used to the conventional design. But if people start embracing it and the design offers significant advantages over the conventional design, it'll do fine.
 
DeltaAir
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Widebody

Mon Dec 11, 2000 4:28 am

The BWB is a design........not a specific aircraft. Boeing is developing several models from 100 Seats-800 Seats. Now look who has a family.
 
WorldTraveller
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 4:37 am

With a wingspan of approx. 100 meters, the BWB will occupy 2 parking positions.

It's wise to go ahead with such a design, but we won't see it flying for the next 15 years, that's for sure. It'll also cost a least $20 billion to develop and I doubt Boeing will risk that now (basically, they can't afford it right now).

Regards
the WorldTraveller
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 5:20 am

Maybe Boeing could ask the EU to fund the development...they seem to like doing that stuff for manufacturers...

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
Guest

RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 7:32 am

I don't think this is Boeing's certain answer to the A3XX. It is a design, and it will probably fly, but I think the 747X Stretch is closer to flying than it is. Who knows?
 
Guest

RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 8:25 am

The BBW will fly and if not in commercial aviation they will build it as a "super tanker" for the air force! Imagin the cargo volume! Read in Flug Revue earlier this year!

best regards, josef
 
Guest

RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 8:34 am

That would explain where the money comes from. Simillar to the 747 back in the sixties.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 12:21 pm

It will take the A3XX programme 15 years to break even if all goes well. Boeings long term strategy is becoming obvious.
When the A3XX is too far down the track to halt, and the money is spent, then my bet is that Boeing will launch this. In the interim Airbus will not have the resources to spend on other technologies, and European aerospace will be a generation behind.
I know it sounds paradoxically wrong, but the best thing for Europe is to NOT launch the A3XX, and instead develop it's existing families, and wait for the next technology breakthrough ie BWB.
My 2 cents worth.
Ruscoe
 
widebody
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 pm

15 years? Pulled out of thin air I think.....Airbuses profitability is sales based, not time.....370 aircraft for it not to be a financial disaster, 564 aircraft to be happy with it......Boeing have predicted the need for 330 aircraft with over 500 seats over the next 20 years.....why are they even bothering talking about the market, when they have already expressed their lack of interest in it.....as far as technologies go, I don't get your point....the A3XX will be the most technologically advanced when it flies, the BWB will be when it flies and so on down the line.....it'e the way evolution proceeds......if we all waited for technology, then we'd have got nowhere......gravity generators could be around the corner another 15 years after the BWB, but you won't see airlines holding off for them.........

....what I find interesting though as you said is the Boeing stategy....clearly, they have changed their tune and believe there will be a market for a VLA........unfortunately though, while deciding, the A3xx has, and is going to eat up a sizable portion of the market.....what I'd wonder is if the A3XX will have eaten up such a portion of the market that the BWB will have so to speak been too much too late......

........don't forget the A3XX is the start of a range of aircraft.......with cockpit commonality all the way up along the line.....the 747X/Stretch and the BWB will have absolutely nothing in common.....so the choice will be between a single type rating for your 500-1000 seater fleet, or two completely different aircraft, that probably won't even have the same flying/handling characteristics by the nature of the design, coupled with the fact that the A3XX will have had a 10-15 year old lead........you talk about new technology, as far as I'm concerned, if the BWB was any good, this type of design would have been introduced many years ago.......as well as this, we've all seen the 737 improvements in technology over years, how about an A3XXNG?

I see where you're coming from about the Boeing policy, and a few years ago, it probably may have been the right choice, but to be honest, Beoing's actions recently have semed a little jittery, and I'm beginning to sense some worry in the Boeing camp......

 
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RayChuang
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:44 pm

While the Blended-Wing Body (BWB) design has a lot of advantages over conventional airliners, there are some issues we need to resolve:

1. Will passengers accept such a weird design with very few windows to look out from? (Mind you, that can be compensated by giving every passenger a PTV display.)

2. What kind of jetwalk design will we need to accommodate the BWB? You certainly can't use the jetwalks now used by Boeing 747-400's.

3. How do you load and unload baggage and cargo on this plane?

One potential worry is that the very large wingspan of BWB may cause problems with ground handling at many airports. Mind you, this is relatively easy to solve; have the wingtips fold up during ground operations so the wingspan will be the same as today's 744's, so the only time the wings are fully extended is during takeoff, flight and landing.
 
cicadajet
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 2:09 pm

We'll see if this flying wing gets made now or not. Probably by somebody. As early as the 1950's Northrop actually filmed a commercial to get the public used to a flying wing; showing the stewardess, happy passengers etc... this at just about the time the 707 and Comet were brand NEW!!! A series of crashes (some mysterious) of the military prototypes, combined with politics, killed any hopes. But the basic idea, if not for circumstance and chance could have been explored long ago. By the time Boeing, Airbus, the combination or anyone else gets involved, this thing could be half space plane utilizing the upper atmosphere etc.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 6:29 pm

The A3XX may be the most techologically advanced concept of current technology, but the BWB concept can leapfrog this. This is the problem for Airbus.

IMHO Boeing do believe there is a market for Super Jumbo's and they are positioning themselves very skillfully to do major damage to their main rival.

By using current albeit advanced current technology Airbus are leaving themselves severely exposed to the risk that a competitor will introduce a generational change.

Further we know that NASA and Boeing are both working on this.

AS far as using current gates is concerned, the drawings and models I have seen, have a forward fuselage not unlike the current 747, so I don't percieve a problem.

The BWB will also be substantially shorter than to-days large aircraft, and as Ray states the wings can fold.

With 3 big GE 115's sucking air over the top of the fuselage it may be possible to get acceptable field performance without using expensive and heavy high lift devices.

I speculate that Boeing will build this in conjunction with one or two major partners, one American and the other Japanese.

Ruscoe
 
WorldTraveller
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 7:15 pm

If Boeing goes ahead with the BWB they won't develop a NLA like the A3XX, that's for sure.

This would mean the A3XX will have a monopoly for around 15 years, like the B744 and will be VERY profitable for Airbus.

BTW, Airbus has BWB concepts on the drawing board, too.

BWB will be the future, but don't forget that we won't see such a plane till 2015 at least!

Regards
the WorldTraveller

P.S. If NASA also is working on a BWB, and Boeing might be asked to develop a BWB tanker for the USAF first, we know where the money comes from.....right from the US goverment!  
 
na
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 7:30 pm

I doubt passengers will like it. Screens a not windows. And airports won´t like it too should it be built as a 500 pax-bat. So I don´t give it to many chances especially in the Jumbo-size market. The Northrop project about 50 years ago was a big failure too (very instable in flight). And how will you evacuate such a thing?
 
Joni
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 8:04 pm


The BWB concept was looked at seriously when Boeing and Airbus were developing an NLA jointly (difficult to imagine those days now!). AFAIK after that Boeing and Airbus (separately now) looked at doing a BWB in cooperation with the Russians, but eventually Boeing wound up with 747x and Airbus with A3xx - BWB apparently does not have much of a business case.

One issue might be price. If it takes USD 20+bn to develop this, and since build costs are unlikely to be even remotely as low as today's inherently stable, easily pressurized shapes, the price tag might simply be too much. People are already clamouring of how big a risk it is to make A3xx! Getting the r&d paid for by the US government would obviously be an advantage though, be it throught Nasa or the military.

If we move to a hydrogen economy and planes wind up needing much more tankage space BWB might become very relevant. Somehow I think the futuristic planes Airbus touted were more reasonable - more lift, less wingspan, more room.

 
gerardo
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 8:22 pm

#-B777-#: If you read the Flug Revue article you see, that there is one major disadvantage in this BWB: You can't just stretch or shronk this design, as you can do with the A340 or B777 or B767 for example. So, any new version would need a whole new wing and fuselage design. So much for the family concept.

Add to that the changes on the airports, which were already mentioned and the "non existing market of VLA's" and you get an economical failure.

The A3XX is the technically most advanced aircraft, when it enters service. In 15 or 20 years we will have a new most advanced aircraft. Perhaps it will be Boeing, perhaps Airbus. It could have revolutionary engines or wing design or whatever else. But a radical new change in just only one step is rather impossible.

Regards
Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
eg777er
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 8:59 pm

Some people here I cannot believe. Ruscoe, for example, believes that the A3XX will take 15 years to be established.

OK, fair point.

BUT THEN, he goes on to say that Boeing would then launch the BWB, which, from his posts, sounds as if it would take zero time to go from launch to full orders.

I doubt it.

The BWB would take at least 20 years from launch to be accepted (if you take the A3XX at 15) because the design is so new and has yet to be proven.

Personally, I think the only market is for a freighter.
 
SIA772er
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Mon Dec 11, 2000 9:40 pm

Hi all,
i got this link from this forum too. There are similarities between airbus and boeing VLA, except that there 4 engines on airbus a/c. I guess you'd like to take a look at it.
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRheft/FRH0101/FR0101e.htm
regards,
sia772er
 
User avatar
RayChuang
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Tue Dec 12, 2000 1:31 am

Actually, one potential HUGE advantage of the BWB over the A3XX is the fact that because the plane IS a flying wing, if you apply the right moving surface design to the plane the BWB could end up with quite a bit shorter takeoff and landing distance than the A3XX. After all, the flying wing has lots of natural lift and could accommodate large spoilers on the top of the wings to quickly bleed off speed at landing so there is less dependence on reverse thrust from the engines.

This means the BWB won't need 12,000 ft. runways like the A3XX does now--it could probably get by with runways as short as 8,500 feet fully-loaded.
 
Joni
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Tue Dec 12, 2000 5:50 am


RayChuang:

What is the benefit of having a shorter takeoff length with a BWB? All airports that can even remotely be thought to support a 744 already have runways that can land/launch an A3xx.

Besides, people seem to think Boeing would be offering this new plane to airlines, which is not the case. I didn't even find anything about it on their website. I'd categorize this along with the supersonic passenger jets - both Boeing and Airbus are looking at them but not with very much resources.
 
leigh pilgrim
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Tue Dec 12, 2000 5:57 am

Hi

Not to keen on this new design, i preffer the origional design for boeings aircraft

LP
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Tue Dec 12, 2000 6:41 am

I'm intrigued by the design. I'll be curious to see if anything comes of it.

As for the design challenges, as some have said above, they are not insurmoutable.

As for doubters, many similar things were said about the 747 when it was first introduced. If the interior design were done right, it could prove to be a very popular aircraft. The only question is whether there is a market to support it.

BTW, pictures I've seen indicate only 3 engines. Correct?

Charles
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
BritishMidland
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Tue Dec 12, 2000 6:56 am

I will throw this pipedream in the same basket with CalWings and Ceilidh.

No annoucement from Boeing? That is strange... usually there is some big picture on their home page.
Odd isn't it?
Not really considering the crap that is being strewn around here.

later
Enter the new age: A340-500, 777-200LR, 7E7
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Boeings - New Flying Wing Jumbo

Tue Dec 12, 2000 10:40 am

I went to the same website as did Teahan to bring you this shot. I love the blended wing idea. It is an inherently superior design over cylindrical fuselages. But something this radical is hard to sell, regardless of how smart an idea.

I predict we will see it one day, but probably not for another 25 years at least. Maybe 50.

Look how far we have come since 1958 when the 707 was introduced. Almost nowhere. At least not in terms of radical new design concepts or performance envelopes. 50 years later we are still flying in cylindrical fuselages carrying 100 -400 pax at 35,000 feet at 600 mph. Breaking out of that mold will not be possible for another 25-50 years. If ever.


An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised

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