avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Mon Dec 11, 2000 10:02 pm

Currently Genevas only transatlantic flight is SRs daily GVA-JFK. I have heard that CO is looking to start service from EWR and DL from ATL.

Has anybody of you heard more definite things?

Swissair itself is looking to start either Geneva- Los Angeles, Geneva- Dallas or Geneva- Chicago.

Avion
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Mon Dec 11, 2000 10:13 pm

Unfortunatly I don't know the plans of the different airlines.
My question is about SR: If they want to start a GVA-LAX flight they have to have a spare MD 11 or have to wait until 2002 when the first A 340-600 arrive. I think GVA-ORD is rather possible. There they can use a A 330 or a MD 11.
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Mon Dec 11, 2000 10:18 pm

ZRH:

An A330-200 can easily make GVA-LAX with a full payload.

Avion
 
gerardo
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 6:22 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Mon Dec 11, 2000 10:37 pm

Some questions:
- how does that flight fit into the hub strategy of SR?
- Would SR really fly this route with A332? The curent longest flight is about 6500 km (Washington). LAX is somewhere around 9000 km.

Regards
Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Mon Dec 11, 2000 10:49 pm

As one of the poor souls living in Geneva with no regular scheduled long distance flights other than GVA-JFK (boring) and a few big middle-eastern flights (which come only during the week, when I have to work for a living  ), I'd be glad to see some more. Unfortunately, the Continental thing is so far only a rumor (as was US Air a few months ago), and I seriously doubt that Swissair is going to reverse its stand on using Zurich as a hub. Very soon, London, Moscow, Zurich and New York will be the only destinations served by Swissair from Geneva. Swissair also has plenty of clout with the Swiss authorities, who would have to approve new flights, and they do everything to ensure that other than regional flights, Geneva does not get a lot of heavies (Swissair is reportedly a shareholder of Zurich's airport, but not of Geneva's).

I think that, for the forseeable future, I'll continue to have to go to other airports for interesting planes.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
gerardo
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 6:22 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Mon Dec 11, 2000 10:59 pm

In my opinion, what SR is doing is to "show their muscles". Whenever a possible airline emerges, which is rumoured to start operations to GVA, SR only has to spread the rumour, that it is considering to start also competing operations, and that's it. But of course I could be wrong.

Sad for you, Charles, and other GVA spotters.

BTW, US AIr was also rumoured to start operations to ZRH a year or so ago. But this didn't happen so far.

Regards
Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
Guest

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Tue Dec 12, 2000 12:15 am

Avion .........



Swissair has alliance service with American Airlines at DFW to operate A330 from DFW to Zurich.

No flight yet to be confirmed on with AA/SR to Geneva.




Baec777XX  
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Tue Dec 12, 2000 12:32 am

Right now the DFW/ZHR flight uses AA equipment, but is code-sharing.

As far as coming to Geneva, not if Swissair can help it. Swissair has a shuttle route from Zurich to Geneva - they call it the pendulum (well, pendulair to be exact). If you want to connect to Swissair's route network, you go through Zurich. Period.

We used to have lots of Swissair direct flights out of Geneva. Not any more.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Tue Dec 12, 2000 12:40 am

SR appararently wants to appease the geneva people. And a 332 can fly GVA-LAX with full pay load non-stop.

Also i think that GVA can definitely support a second flight to NY. Most likely with CO to EWR.

Avion
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Tue Dec 12, 2000 12:54 am

Avion, I know I am one of your respected users, but I am affraid I'll have to disagree with you on this one.

I know Swissair rather well, and I am sure the last thing they are currently considering is adding longhaul service out of GVA. The reason for this is clear: they simply don't have enough feed to support them. Feed from SVO and LHR can not maintain a flight, and even with the extra help of SN out of BRU and AOM out of ORY, they wouldn't be able to do so.

Also, I don't think the GVA area is strong enough to support a longhaul service to say DFW or LAX. So, although SR has the equipment available, I don't see it happening in the near future.

New York is another story though. There is always possibility to fill up a New York flight, and some american companies should be very well aware of Swissair milk cow called 'the UN Shuttle'.

However, if the americans were to come in from New York, I don't think all those high yield F- and C-class pax would be ready to swap from Swissair to, say DL or CO, who, actually, don't even offer F-class.

 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Tue Dec 12, 2000 12:57 am

Swissair will stay with its Zurich hub of course. But I can imagine that they introduce one or two new flights out of GVA if there is enough o/d traffic like on the route to N.Y. This could be possible to a AA hub like ORD or DFW. It does not make sense to take people to a hub like ZRH if you can fill an aircraft with o/d traffic at the other airport.
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Tue Dec 12, 2000 3:33 am

ContinentalEWR?

Avion
 
teahan
Posts: 4989
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 1999 11:18 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Tue Dec 12, 2000 3:45 am

Well I used to live in Geneva and still return quite frequently. SR has confirmed in several Swiss newspapers (Le Matin , Le Temps & La Tribune De Geneve) and in Travel Inside (the Swiss travel agents magazine) that they would start a 2nd long haul service from GVA in summer 2001. Short listed destinations include DFW, ORD and LAX.

HB-IWC, you say Geneva does not have enough population to support long haul services. That is most defineetly not true. Geneva is in a basin of several million people covering 3 countries. Switzerland (well obviously), Italy and France (Ain, Savoie, Haute Savoie etc....)

Le Matin published a great article about passenger numbers to/from Geneva on the Sunday the 5th of November. It clearly showed that not counting the transiting city eg. someone flying GVA-CGD-LAX; LAX would be counted as the final destination and not CDG. GVA had higher numbers of passengers vis-a-vis Zurich to many European and long haul destinations. These included Montreal and Brussels.

Swissair never really liked GVA. A big conflict occured when GVA decided to pull out all long haul destinations except JFK. The Canton of GVA sold all Swissair shares they had.

One of my big regrets is that Swiss World Airways (SWA) did not work. Many people and even the Canton of Geneva saw great hope in them after SR pulling long haul flights. Swiss Worlds big mistake was to start on the New York route. A route already well served by Swissair.

Kind Regards,
Jeremiah Teahan
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Tue Dec 12, 2000 10:48 am

I predict for any extra SR longhaul service ex GVA a life of no longer than 3 seasons, after which it will be transferred to ZRH.

Even when there is a lot of potential O&D traffic, they still don't have the feed for properly maintaining the flight:

-I doubt that any ORD or LAX flight will get a lot of feed from the LHR flights, given the ample choice of North American flights;

-There is no feed at all from the SVO flight, considering it only arrives in the evening in GVA;

-That leaves the potential feed to a couple of BRU flights (where partner SN is offering ORD flights), ORY (by Air Liberte) and LIS (by TAP).

Well, they might do it, but, in my view, it won't last very long. Remember how long the BSL-EWR flight lasted?

The only sollution I see, is to make a summer only seasonal operation, between, say may 15 and september 30.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Tue Dec 12, 2000 11:55 am

A Continental flight, linking GVA with EWR would probably do well. The SR GVA-JFK flight is highly
profitable so there is probably room for two air-
lines operating a New York-area to Geneva flight.
CO could use a 767-200ER or a 757. Continental
could also market the route to skiers going to
Switzerland or France.

As for Swissair developing long-hauls out of the
Geneve-Cointrin Airport again, I don't think they
will do so. The focus is on Zurich as a hub there
probably is not enough demand to fill either an
A330, MD11, or certainly not an A340-600 from
Geneva to Los Angeles, or Chicago.

As for Delta operating an ATL-GVA flight, again
this was probably considered during the days
of the Atlantic Excellence partnership but now,
Delta would probably want to allocate its very
stretched 767-300ER fleet to developing routes
to Latin America. The MD11 in my opinion, too
big to operate form ATL to GVA.
 
flysab
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 7:59 am

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Wed Dec 13, 2000 7:04 am

Hi AVION

I am a A330-200 pilot and can affirm that we can't fly a stretch as long as GVA-LAX with full payload.
Look at these numbers ( and I believe they are the same for the Swissair aircrafts because they were ordered together)
Max take off weight 230 T
Max zero fuel weight 168 T
So if you depart with a full payload, it just leaves 62 T of fuel.
For GVA-LAX, count on about 80 T of fuel.
 
caribb
Posts: 1502
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 1999 6:33 am

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Wed Dec 13, 2000 9:15 am

I don't know of any definite new routes out of Geneva. I do wish there would be one to Montréal however.. Linking two French speaking cities would seem appropriate.
 
Billy
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2000 11:18 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Wed Dec 13, 2000 6:52 pm

I agree with HB-IWC. The route ex-GVA would need to be an east coast hub to maximise connectivity. This leaves either EWR or PHL. LAX is a long way for an aircraft for not much yield. LAX is very seasonal. I am sure that airlines can fill aircraft but people keep forgetting about making money.

ATL may be tough to make money on, especially now that DL seems to be adding a second ZRH-ATL, obviously to squeeze SR off the route.

LAtam is not working that well for all US carriers. Some are re-evaluating whther to keep those latam routes becuase of poor profitability. And I am sure there are a bnch of 767s and 777s operating to TLV that could be released at the moment.
 
gerardo
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 6:22 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Wed Dec 13, 2000 7:27 pm

A question to Flysab (beeing an A332-pilot, I'm sure you can answer this one  ):

Airbus says on its website about the A332, that the range (max. pax) is nm 6 400 (km 11 850). Does it mean, that this range is only valid for a full passenger load but without cargo?

Then it is clear, why SR wouldn't use an A332 for a GVA-LAX route. Cargo is getting more and more important.

Regards
Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Wed Dec 13, 2000 11:54 pm

Gerardo: When you look it up in the SR timetable you see: "A 330 range: full pax load, no cargo, max range with normal reserves 11500 km". That means you can do GVA-LAX easily with full pax but only with little cargo. That's the problem.

Regards Philipp

P.S: I think the declarations of "max range" of all manufacturers are often "full pax load, no cargo" and not "maximum payload".
 
SR3496
Posts: 774
Joined: Sat May 06, 2000 8:21 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Thu Dec 14, 2000 12:01 am

Forget this LAX route. I think if Swissair starts a new langhaul out of GVA it will be ORD and nothing else.
 
gerardo
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 6:22 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Fri Dec 15, 2000 6:19 am

Thanks, Philipp! This clears up a few things.

Regards
Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
yhu
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Fri Dec 15, 2000 6:22 am

Not only would a Geneva-Montreal flight link 2 French cities, it would link two of IATA's main offices. Instead of forccing them through either Zurich or FRA. Swiss World had planned service to Montreal, but they didn't last too long.
 
caribb
Posts: 1502
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 1999 6:33 am

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Fri Dec 15, 2000 6:27 am

YHU, Air Canada actually ran a YMX-GVA run for a while but it too faded out. I was surprised but I guess the strength of Swissair on the Montreal run must have done them in.. Zurich is a well established destination from YUL and it's so close to Geneva that I guess it really doesn't make that much or a difference after flying 8000km..
 
avion
Posts: 2126
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:28 am

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Fri Dec 15, 2000 6:45 am

Well a Air Canada has the suitable equipment. A 767-200 would certainly not be to large for GVA-YUL.

Avion
 
caribb
Posts: 1502
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 1999 6:33 am

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Fri Dec 15, 2000 9:30 am

True but Air Canada isn't really interested in developing routes out of Montréal. Their priority is Star Alliance and Toronto.. we pick up whatever is left over usually.
 
Grasshopper
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:55 pm

RE: New Long Haul Flights To Geneva

Fri Dec 15, 2000 2:46 pm

If there's an YUL-GVA, can Montreal support both Zurich and Geneva route? I'd rather fly to Geneva than Zurich since Geneva's somewhat close to Lyon and Nice.

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