Guest

Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 6:36 am

US president Bill Clinton has warned Europe and Airbus in particular that it is risking a trade war with the US if it goes ahead with the A3XX. I don't know anything more about what it was exactly he said, as I just read it on the teletext service here in Belgium (VRT)

Nice timing, Bill!

Anyway, what do you think of this?
 
777X
Posts: 850
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:44 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 6:43 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/001218/n18172559.html

 
DeltaAir
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 4:41 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 6:57 am

Refusal to hand over documents? Hmm........not a good thing to do when you are being "audited".
 
A320FO
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2000 12:28 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 7:05 am

Here we go again.......

Its time that certain persons/companies/countries stop being ridiculous and return to the harsh reality. Apparently, the US industry is not capable of innovation, as the only answer they come up with is to cry for their political leaders to step in.
Simply put, if simply strechting a 35 year OLD airplane (747) does not sell, then its time to think about alternatives! Trying it the political way does NOT raise the qualities of Boeing.

Just my two cents worth.....

A320FO
 
CX747
Posts: 5566
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 7:11 am

I really don't like it when politics and aviation mix. But, unfortunately they do more times than they do not. Just as Boeing had to jump throught hoops to get EU certification of its McDonnell Douglas takeover, Airbus and its backers are going to have to do the same if the A3XX is going to come to fruition. As for Boeing having no better answer than a 35 year old stretched 747, thats not correct. The 763-246C is an awesome design, but the market does not warrant the R&D costs.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
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RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 7:15 am

Paris / Bonn, December 18th 1966

French president Charles de Gaule and German cancellor Conrad Adenauer have warned the USA and Boeing in particular that it is risking a trade war with Europe if it goes ahead with the B747. I don't know anything more about what it was exactly they said, as I just read it on the teletext service here in Denmark.


Anyway, what do you think of this? Rubbish? Of course it is.
Happy landing, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Guest

Nothing To Worry About

Tue Dec 19, 2000 7:27 am


If Clinton said anything, I am still convinced that there's not a big need for the A3XX. I believe that Airbus and Boeing should spend their time in the Mid-sized, Boeing 767 example, type of a/c, because the world does not need a huge jet. Over the next decade, passengers and airlines are going to need many mid-sized jets to fly routes such as the North Atlantic route, to have many flights of Boeing 767's for example, instead of having one flight of a 500+ pax jet. Pax and airlines want flexibility in flights, so why not spend time and $$$ in reinventing the Boeing 767-300/200 and have Airbus develop a jet that would compete with the 767, not the 777 or 747.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 7:35 am

Juul wrote:
-------------------------------
... Nice timing, Bill!
-------------------------------

Perfect timing!!! Mr. Clinton isn't really satisfied with yesterday's outcome of the so called presidential elections. So now he went to work producing artificial problems for his successor.

During the next 24 hours we have got the chance to see if Mr. Bush jr is an adult man, or just his father's son. Let us stay tuned to the teletext in Belgium  
Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
RWally
Posts: 541
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 1999 10:28 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:05 am

Washington, Dec. 18 (Bloomberg) -- President Bill Clinton warned European Union leaders they were risking a trade dispute with the U.S. over plans to subsidize Airbus Industrie's new super- jumbo passenger aircraft, U.S. officials said.

Clinton told the EU officials at a summit in Washington that loans to develop the new A3XX jet, which would be the largest in the world if it enters service as planned in 2005, must not be made by EU governments on preferential terms.

``We have impressed upon them, as did the president today -- quite strongly -- that funding needs to be on a commercial basis,'' said U.S. Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky. ``We have asked that the member state governments disclose the terms on which the funding will be provided.''

Boeing Co.'s stock rose more than 5 percent today, closing at $68.50. Airbus competes with Boeing in the large commercial airliner market.

Gene Sperling, Clinton's top economic adviser, said Clinton told European Commission president Romano Prodi and French President Jacques Chirac that if the matter ``is not taken seriously, it could be a difficult issue between the U.S. and the EU on trade in the future.''

The meeting among the leaders took place at a luncheon during the twice-yearly U.S.-EU summit that dealt with issues ranging from transatlantic trade disputes over beef and bananas to European security and defense concerns.

Government Financing

Barshefsky in June asked the governments of Germany, France, and the U.K. to disclose the terms of the loans they had agreed to give Airbus to finance development of the 550- to 650-seat aircraft, more than 50 of which have already been ordered by airlines around the world.

She said today those governments had so far declined to provide that information.

``This is a situation where we're talking about government financing, we're not talking about financing from private banks,'' she said. ``The government of Germany has indicated it would commit funds; the government of the United Kingdom and the government of France similarly.

``Under international trade rules, to the extent there is a concern about subsidization, governments are required to disclose the terms on which financing is to be provided,'' Barshefsky said.

Pascal Lamy, the EU's trade commissioner, declined to answer questions about Airbus after speaking today to the American Enterprise Institute, a Washington-based think tank.

Boeing Backs Clinton

A Boeing spokeswoman said the company supports the administration's efforts to ensure that World Trade Organization obligations are respected.

Virnell Bruce said Boeing expects the A3XX project ``will go forward, but we believe that it should be on commercial terms.''

She said it will be up to the government to determine whether the financing is on such terms.

Barshefsky said the U.S. has made it ``very clear'' that financing must be ``consistent with WTO rules, including with respect to subsidies, and therefore that all financing provided must be on commercially consistent terms.''

That means the EU government cannot lend to Airbus on better terms than the company, which is owned by British Aerospace Plc and the European Aeronautic, Defense and Space Co., could get borrowing from a commercial bank.

Barshefsky said the financing may be breaching global trade rules.

``First of all, the governments have obviously been very quiet on the manner in which the financing will take place,'' she said.

``And second, all indications are, from a variety of observers to the scene, that the funding for the A3XX will not be provided on commercially consistent terms, but will be provided with a sharp element of preference which may well constitute a violation of WTO rules,'' she concluded.

Dec/18/2000 17:28 ET
 
Fly-by-pilot
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2000 10:45 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:07 am

When Boeing wanted to make 737's in Long Beach the EU bitched and they got their way. The only reason airlines are actually considering the A3XX is because Airbus can sell them cheaper than the 747-400. Who would be stupid to pass up a deal like that. First Airbus uses the deep pockets of 3 nations to sell the planes at close out prices and then they use those same deep pockets for R&D. You cant be more unfair that that.
 
Guest

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:17 am

Clinton should just have the FAA ban the A3XX from US airports!
 
Guest

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:34 am

What is Airbus afraid of? If the EU loans are legitimate, the governments shouldn't be afraid of disclosing the terms. If they amount to illegal subsidies, then you can expect the WTO to permit trade sanctions.

If Airbus can't develop the A3XX without having the EU pay for it, it's not much of a company.
 
mirage
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:37 am

This never changes, so many clever arguments.
Why not ban Europe from planet Earth, Bigo747???
 
watewate
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:49 am

Clinton is letting everyone know that he's still the man in charge! He still has a few more weeks in office but I'd like to see Bush's official view on this subject.
 
BOEING747-700
Posts: 1356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 5:21 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:52 am

"Clinton should just have the FAA ban the A3XX from US airports!"

Clinton and the USA can not stop Airbus from making an A3XX. What next do they control what I should do?! Ladies and Gentlemen I call that Communism. Like it or not USA, the Airbus AXX will not be halted on you account.  
 
TWA717_200
Posts: 1410
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RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:56 am

Raddog2 summed it up perfectly.
 
watewate
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 9:06 am

WTO can't do anything. If you can recall Bombardier vs. Embraer ruling, WTO told Brazillian government to stop giving kickbacks to Embraer. Apparently, Embraer and Brazillian government haven't changed their ways and are still continuing with the practice. This goes to explain the 'power' of WTO.
 
blink182
Posts: 5269
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 3:09 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 9:13 am

Thank you Bill!
rgds,
blink182
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
B727-200
Posts: 1008
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RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 9:17 am


Am I the only one here who is getting sick of this crap???

The Space race, Arms race, Concord and now the A3XX. If Uncle Sam didn't think of it, build it, fly it, drive it or hump it first, then it must be a bad thing that is intended to hurt, maim and destroy the people and organisations of the good ol' U.S. of A!!!!

And is this the same Bill Clinton that was subsidising US farmers for their meat and grain, almost to the point of driving smaller surrounding nations primary industries into ruin some years ago?

Most upsetting is how a forum that is supposed to be full of people that have chosen Aviation as one of their hobbies, careers or loves keep bagging what will be the biggest advance in commercial aviation for over 30 years?

My AU$0.02 (US$0.0109, EUR 0.01217)

B727-200.
 
DeltaAir
Posts: 1059
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 4:41 am

Hmmm........

Tue Dec 19, 2000 9:46 am

Most likely the A3XX will fly, but most likely unless the government loaning is stopped, probably not in the US. Whoever says the U.S. cannot ban an aircraft from landing in the U.S. is absolutely incorrect. The Concorde was banned for a certain time and still may be along with the A3XX if this problem isn't solved.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:25 am

B727-200 wrote:
-------------------------------
Am I the only one here who is getting sick of this crap???
-------------------------------

No.


PS: Just one post scriptum, to put the crap in perspective. They keep talking about the Airbus and "the EU" and trade wars against the EU. There are fifteen EU member countries. Four countries are involved in the Airbus. My country PLUS TEN MORE EU COUNTRIES are not involved in the Airbus.
It really irritates me that eleven countries including mine is automatically getting "Airbus-bashing" because we have friendly neighbour relation to those 27% of EU countries, which are Airbus producers. We cannot avoid to be neighbours, and "friendly", that's our nature. Around here we fly Airbus and Boeing/MDD - what fits our needs best - mostly the latter at present. Fine planes, nothing wrong with them.
But if we look upon the FOUR Airbus countries: Both AF, BA and LH fly lots of 747s - even if half of the original development costs were spin off from the taxpayer sponsorred Large Military Transport contest which Boeing lost to Lockheed and the C-5A. That's okay, why not? Boeing also had the right to put windows and seats on the KC-135 and rename it 707. Of course.
And of course Mr. Clinton has the right to protect his farmers for the well-being of his country. The well-being of Australian farmers also has his interest, but as second priority - of course.
Instead of all this whining, couldn't they just dismantle the Statue of Liberty and send it back to France from where it came.
Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
tygue
Posts: 220
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RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:45 am

Boeing747-700 said it perfectly. The US isn't going to stop Airbus.

Perhaps all of Europe should ban the 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767 and 777 aircraft. Seeing as a lot of North American airlines are making the switch to airbus, Europe could destroy Boeing with such a move. Not that it's a particularly realistic idea, but just a thought.

 
CX747
Posts: 5566
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:53 am

Again, if there is nothing wrong with the loans and they are compliant with the 1992 accord then there should be no problem. As for the 747 and 707 being brought up as U.S. government backed programs. Please fellas lets stick to reality.

In 1952 Boeing invested 16 million dollars of its own money into the 367-80 project (707). The first customer for the aircraft was Pan Am. Now, thats not to say that the KC-135 program did not help. But Boeing didn't ask the United States Government for money so that it could build an airplane that Pan Am would want to purchase. So, to say that the program was backed by the U.S. Govt is false. Sorry but Boeing spent its own money.

As for the 747, it came about after Boeing LOST the CX-HLS program to Lockheed. Boeing took its own money and pursued the product in a commercial aspect. The United States Government wasn't there to fall back on. In fact, when the 747 first went into production, I believe that the unemployement rate was 17% in Seattle due to all of the layoffs.

It seems to me that alot of the people touting the A3XX as a profit maker and rambling off potential order numbers forget that it took the 747 over 20 years to get to 1000 orders. Now, with the advent of the 767, 777, and Airbus's own A330, A340 it will be even harder to sell Super Jumbos.

F.Y.I Boeing has sold 114 777s this year. Airbus has sold 113 A330/340s. Lets not forget the 21 747s and 9 767s. (One must say a poor year for the 767.) Only 50 A3XXs were sold at BARGAIN BASEMENT PRICES. A.k.a. A 747-400 is more expensive. So, if we do the math

747- 21
767- 9
777- 114
A330/340- 113

We get 257 transports to 50.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Guest

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 10:55 am

Prebennorholm:

Since EU member nations decided to form a trading bloc, you shouldn't be outraged when trading partners take trade conflicts to the EU government. No one is trying to "bash" Denmark or any other European country. But to put it into perspective -- European trade policy is set in Brussels. France, Germany, and the UK may be the ones providing the loans, but I don't see the rest of the EU trading bloc pushing for disclosure of the terms of the loans (which they could if they wanted to). The fact is that the the Airbus countries are trying to subsidize the A3XX through underhanded loans in violation of international rules, and EU trade representatives (who represent all EU member nations, like it or not) are trying to pretend nothing is happening.

As for the tired old "Boeing gets military contracts" excuse -- so does Airbus! If you show me someone who says that BAe doesn't work on military technology, I'll show you a liar. The point is that Boeing doesn't get below market rate loans from the US government for commercial aircraft development, and Airbus does. No amount of smoke and mirrors can hide that fact.

International trade rules exist for a reason. The WTO may not have teeth, but it can permit retributive trade sanctions.
 
watewate
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RE: Tan_flyr

Tue Dec 19, 2000 11:14 am

Funny post  
 
USAirways737
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RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 11:53 am

What is so wrong with asking questions to make sure the loans are legal????? If the EU governments were doing everything in compliance with trade rules then why are they not willing to show that they arent going to give "free money" to Airbus? I have nothing against Airbus but making sure the EU isnt giving Airbus a discounted loan is not wrong.

And personally I'm sick of hearing many non-Americans bashing us and Boeing because we want to make sure the EU and Airbus are following the rules. If they have nothing to hide then why are they worried about the US knowing about the loans?
 
Guest

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 12:02 pm

Why not let Europe only buy their own airbus planes & all US carriers buy Boeing aircraft. Let Asian carriers make their own decision. Maybe the US goverment should invest in Boeing, like all the european goverments (taxpayers) invest in airbus!
 
Guest

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 12:53 pm

Its about time he did something right. Had I known this, I've would have voted for GORE! Would the United States help Boeing develope the 747X? Did the US help Boeing develope the 777?  
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 1:46 pm

Let the Market decide whether the A3XX will run or not. The US has no business dictating terms to Europe and the rest of the world.

Frankly, Boeing is running around shit scared 'cos it doesnt have an appropriate response. And the panic is showing from these statements made by US politicians.

In future, Clinton and Monica would probably have to use a 747 instead of their cigars. That would be the only use left for the 747 once the A3XX comes along.

 
 
jkelley480
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2000 10:03 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 2:30 pm

For credibility's sake I must premise this statement by saying that I appreciate both Airbus and Boeing aircraft and feel no sentimental affinity towards either company.

Regarding the statement that the 747 is 30 years old: well it is...the NAME! It shows ignorance to say that the 744 is 30 years OLD or uses all OLD technology, especially from so-called "aviation buffs" on this forum. The market supports my statement. I suppose it is futile to argue this point considering the people that will understand it do not need it to be explained. Oh well.
 
aduum
Posts: 324
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 5:24 pm

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 2:42 pm

YOU GO INDIAN GUY.

The typical American response that I as an Australian have come to get used to.
Can I ask a question. WOuld Mr. Clinton have anything to say if the EU govt. was funding a smaller commercial jet which wasnt providing as much competition for BOeing?? I do not think so.

This is the last resort for boeing, as they probably have left it too late to save their monopoly of the large aircraft market.


ADuum
 
DG_pilot
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 10:21 am

Tygue

Tue Dec 19, 2000 2:52 pm

Tygue said:
""Seeing as a lot of North American airlines are making the switch to airbus, Europe could destroy Boeing with such a move.""
-----------------------------

What are you smoking?

There's no North American airliners making switch overs to Airbus. There might be a few adding a few Airbuses, but 'no one' is making a switch over.

Yeah, go ahead and ban all Boeing aircraft in Europe and see what happens. Considering Boeing airliners make up somewhere between 80-90% of all airliners, lets just see what would happen.

I'd have to laugh when your economies went into recession and most travel grinded to a halt.

-Dustin

 
Guest

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 2:57 pm

Anyone remember the Avro Arrow project?, it was far supperior to what the U.S had and they couldan't take it, so they shut it down. Same thing is happening again, the u.s government is once again abusing its power, threatning the to shut down the competiton, only this time history won't be reapeted. Boeing should dump the entire 747X project and concentrate on a new design instead of crying to the president..........GO AIRBUS!!!!
 
FrankyA340
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2000 11:34 am

To Tan Flyer

Tue Dec 19, 2000 4:01 pm

Are you sure you know this an aviation forum....
 
nycank
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon May 29, 2000 6:47 pm

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 5:43 pm

A large portion of the subcontracts for avionics and other esoteric stuff are
going to be awarded to US corporations anyway  

If the Oil prices stay put, the puts on oil futures will come home to roost for
Airbus Industries and A3XX  
 
OO-AOG
Posts: 1395
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2000 1:24 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 5:52 pm

Those american guys are so funny.
Good idea, ban the A3XX because Boeing is losing the market....com'on guys take it easy, we all know you are the best! We, stupid europeans, are just lucky to sell our crap I guess  
Falcon....like a limo but with wings
 
Joni
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 7:37 pm


This thread has been extremely entertaining - you don't often see people playing the good old WW2 card anymore. Not to mention it eliciting the classic responses; Russians defeated Germany, US was acting for their own national security etc -- splendid!

On-topic, one really has to wonder at the real goals the Americans have here. My theory is that they want to "raise" the issue now to smear the A3xx project. If there's talk of subsidies at the same time the project is moving toward launch, (American) people will later remember something fishy was going on with the A3xx even if/when the loans are in due course demonstrated to be in accordance with treaties. Any thoughts?

 
gkirk
Posts: 23345
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 11:30 pm

Will Bill Clinton please shut up, please shut up! Its up to the European Governments if they want to help Airbus, Im sure the USA would help Boeing. Anyway, if it guarantees the jobs of thousands of workers in Europe, then Im all for it.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1558
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Tue Dec 19, 2000 11:41 pm

OK, final off topic post on this.
1.My apologies to any fellow European aviation buffs. My point about"saving ass" specificly referred to the UK & France and world wars 1 & 2.. I did not wish to dive into "cold war" incidents on either side.
2. I made a point of respect and level playing fields. Sure friends compete, they must and thats OK, but it should be on a pretty even field.
3.Speaking of respect, I respect each of the opinions placed on here. Some I agree with, some I don't, JUST AS YOU! I Promise this is my last off topic post on this subject!
4. Best wishes for a great Holiday Season from a fellow aviation buff in the US!
 
CX747
Posts: 5566
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

What It Truly Deals WITH.

Tue Dec 19, 2000 11:56 pm

All this has to deal with is checking to make sure that the loans the EU governments are giving to Airbus are at commercial rates. If there is nothing illegal about the loans and they meet the 1992 accord then Airbus and the EU can proceed. It sure does make you wonder why they won't let the loan information out.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Hepkat
Posts: 2134
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Wed Dec 20, 2000 12:45 am

From reading these posts I can detect a lot of hurt feelings and pride over this matter. As a neutral observer, I can only say; I don't think this has anything to do with Boeing vs. Airbus, or Boeing feeling scared of the new Airbus bird. Perhaps they do, that's not the point. From what I'm reading, it seems what's bothering the Americans is whether the loans to develop this new aircraft are fairly financed or not.

On one hand, Airbus is not as capital rich as Boeing, and so probably cannot afford to fund the A3XXX without help from their respective governments. Add to this the number of jobs that will be created from this project, and you can understand why they'd probably go to great lengths to get favorable loans from the EU.

On the other hand, Boeing suffers no such drawback, and so it's in a much easier position to insist that Airbus receives competitive loans from the EU.

If I had to make a judgement, I would say that since the EU countries are members of the WTO, jobs or lack of capital notwithstanding, Airbus must play by the rules their governments ratified. If these rules stipulate that Airbus may not receive favorable loans from the EU, then I don't see why they don't conform, even if that means publicly disclosing the terms of these loans.

If the US is guilty of violating the WTO, either in the past or in the present, that still does not present justification for the EU to violate WTO rules now or in the future. Take the US to task for their violations, if there are any, but don't use that to say, "well they're doing it, so we can do it too."

Hepkat
 
notdownnlocked
Posts: 921
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RE: Aerosol

Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:19 am

Does anybody remember the "pitch a bitch" problems from a country in Europe when the 744 was introduced? I think it was due to some questions about the floor supports of the upper deck and and the wining was around the same time that the A-340 was coming out. If I remember correctly it was from KLM.
 
Guest

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:36 am

For those of you who say "let the market decide," obviously you have no idea what free markets are. Letting the market decide whether the A3XX should be built means that Airbus should develop it on its own and let the market determine whether the A3XX is profitable. It's no longer a free market when development of the A3XX is subsidized by the government, especially when competing products are not. These subsidies allow Airbus to sell the A3XX at below cost, thus CREATING a market where one would not have existed without the subsidies.

Again, if Airbus has nothing to hide, why don't they disclose the terms of the loans? If the loans are at commercial rates, fine! Then the US should drop the subject. If not, well, I think we will see some retributive trade sanctions. I think Europe needn't be so touchy about criticism.
 
wingman
Posts: 2765
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Wed Dec 20, 2000 2:30 am

Not many people seem to understand what this is all about. Quite simply, it is about companies and countries using any available means to protect themselves and screw up the competition a little. The EU is threatening the US with $4BB in fines over the FSC scheme. Boeing is one of the primary targets of this action. So now the US will start returning the favor and guess what? Airbus is on the top of that list. Why? It's a great target. It's highly visible and its success comes at the expense of one of our exporting cornerstones, commercial aircraft. Also don't forget that aside from BAe and the UK, no other Airbus partner has ever produced any requested proof of repayment on the 330/340 program. Why not? Clearly, these loans have not been repaid according to the 1992 bilateral agreement.

This is all part of a much larger game. There will be no trade war and the A3XX will fly if Airbus can build it. Bill is not threatneing the EU with a trade war, he's just teeing up Dubya with a thorny issue that will be negotiated to the relative satisfaction of all parties involved. Like I said in a previous post, the US threw the first punch in the WTO with the bananas and the burgers, but the EU upped the ante by kneeing the US in the balls with the FSC complaint. So what does the EU expect, that the US will just happily let easy government assistance go on forever when Airbus already has 50% of the market and they never repaid on the 330/340? Don't get too emotional about this. Countries do what they can to protect their national interests and Boeing and Airbus are equally important national interests to the US and the EU. This game is as old as civilization. The only difference now is that it gets played out at negotiating tables now instead of corpse-strewn battlefields.
 
Guest

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Wed Dec 20, 2000 2:41 am

will it even be aloud in the US because of noise? I heard it is very noisey.
 
jkelley480
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2000 10:03 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Wed Dec 20, 2000 3:41 am

Ha! The A3XX will not be "noisy," I can tell you that. I would guess that any non hush-kitted 727 is much louder than the A3XX will be!
 
F-WWKH
Posts: 309
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 1999 8:23 pm

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Wed Dec 20, 2000 4:09 am

If that is true, than we could call it the 'US President farce, part II'
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6409
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Wed Dec 20, 2000 4:29 am

This whole case has run into a deadlock.

Airbus says they play according to the rules.
Boeing says that Airbus is not playing according to the rules.
Boeing will be happy if they can send an army of auditors and dig in Airbus accounts for the next few years.
Airbus won't let the the Boeing auditors in.
Airbus probably don't care much about seeing the Boeing accounts.
In any case Boeing won't send all their accounting dept. files to Toulouse.
Airbus overall accounts tell about healthy profit (1999 = US$ 550m).
Boeing says that Airbus don't pay back loans.
Airbus says 320 R&D loans were paid back in 1993. 330/340 will soon be.
Both A&B accounts are smeered with military contracts.
Airbus tells us that they aim at a 50% market share.
Boeing will be happy with 100%.
National labor politics is involved in Seattle, Toulouse, Hamburg and Chester.
The national pride and queen of the sky through 30 years - the B747 - may be outsized by an ugly duckling.
Airbus marketing dept. thinks that there is a market for monster airliners.
Etc. etc.

There is no way out of it.
I only wish that some US Airbus bashers would avoid bashing those eleven EU countries which are not involved in the Airbus and point their anger in direction of the four countries involved France, Germany, Britain, Spain.
In the same way I would regret to see any Airbus fanatic bashing Canada only because Canada has a trade union with the USA.
Happy landing, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Fly-by-pilot
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2000 10:45 am

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:58 am

The day it will be fair is the day the US Gov gives Boeing grants(I mean "loans") to sell their planes 25% off and pay for most of R&D. We all would be flying supresonc from LAX to LHR for only $800.

It would be great if aviation didnt have a price tag, but it does and people(airbus) need to be accountable just like everybody else.
 
Joni
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Clinton Threatens Airbus Over A3XX

Wed Dec 20, 2000 7:36 am


Fly-By-Pilot,

You call for Airbus to be accountable. For starters, would you yourself mind becoming accountable? You insinuate Airbus r&d is mostly paid by subsidies. Give references to this. You insinuate Airbus gets sales subsidies. References please.

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