ContinentalEWR
Topic Author
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UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:23 am

Is this really true? Can someone confirm?

If so, that leaves UA with LHR, CDG, FRA, MUC, AMS, BRU, and DUS in Europe.


ContinentalEWR
 
TWFirst
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:44 am

Only 4 more locations than TW (including FRA), less if you count TW's codeshare arrangements.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
ContinentalEWR
Topic Author
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:46 am

Ironic isn't it. US Airways will soon have more flights to Europe than UA.

Oh well....

 
TWFirst
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RE: ContinentalEWR

Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:48 am

Maybe that's why they're pulling out of MXP??? (UA/US combination)
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Guest

RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:48 am


I dissagree with UAL for doing this. Milan Malpensa is Europe's fastest growing airport, so why pull out of a city that will soon become a major gateway in Europe. There again, United-Sinking (not rising).
 
AA@DFW
Posts: 392
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:53 am

Is it ORD-MIL?

If so, I guess AA will really have a hold on that route.

AA@DFW
 
jasewgtn
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 6:56 am

ContinentalEWR:

Where have you heard this from?
 
Neo
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 7:27 am

That's not true!!!!!
UA won't discontinue its service to MXP, trust me these are only speculations!!!

TWfirst: where did you get that from??

Neo
 
TWFirst
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RE: Neo

Wed Dec 20, 2000 8:06 am

Where did I get what from?
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
travelin man
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RE: TWFirst

Wed Dec 20, 2000 8:49 am

Hey bud! Are you freezing your @ss off up there in MN? I just got back from Ohio today, and it was cold and snowy...nice to be back in 80 degree LA!

You do realize that if you count TWA's codeshares, you also have to count United's, and with the star alliance (and Lufthansa), I'm pretty sure that would beat the pants off TWA in terms of European destinations (but i don't know).

I think ContinentalEWR is smoking crack again. Where did you get this info, ContinentalEWR? When you make claims, it is best to site a source. Or was it just a question, as in "IS United pulling out of MXP?" In which case it is silly for people to be commenting on the question like it is a fact.
 
imkeww
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 8:55 am

Clearing up a barrage of misinformation:

United currently flies IAD-MXP daily with alternating 767-300 and 777-200 (non ER) aircraft; I think it depends on the seasons. Historically, the flight used to go IAD-MXP-ROM-IAD, but a few years ago United dropped Rome.

United is currently the second largest carrier over the Atlantic, as measured in RPMs. There was a point recently when UAL actually overtook Delta month-over-month in RPM stats, but that was short-lived. Despite having merely 8 destinations in Europe, UALs traffic figures are continuously on the rise, and the highest load factors in UAL's system is to be found on the transatlantic network. Although it might be that United will now only have 7 destinations, you must understand that US Airways is not even close to being as big as United to Europe, even if they will have more destinations. (A moot point, anyway, since UAL will absorb those flights as part of the merger).

Number of destinations is not a good indicator for airline size. Continental is probably the most "international" of the US 'lines; they've got a helluva lot of international destinations in Europe and Latin America. However, many of those points are served with very low frequencies, many even 1,2,3x weekly; rarely are international destination's served more than once daily.

UAL likes to think its "principle subsidiary" is a businessman's airline. As such, UAL strategists like to have many frequencies in high-yield business markets. This is why United has 91 flights weekly *alone* into LHR. That number of flights to one European destination is more than US Airways' or TWA's number of European flights.

I rest my case.

-imk
 
SegmentKing
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 9:45 am

From what I have heard, the flights to Milan are going to B767-300 services and there are no plans to decrease service AT this point through June 2001. That would have to been called by now, as United likes to give at least 6 mos notice on cancellation of international services *unless it's due to catostrophic event or terrorism*

Nate
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
dellatorre
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Imkeww

Wed Dec 20, 2000 9:56 am

I really think UA is losing ground in Europe! You have to admit, competetion is tough in this market.
UA serves Europe mostly from its tiny little IAD hub. Few flights from ORD and SFO too. UA is almost nothing without LH and SK codeshare in such routes.
The NYC-LON market is undoubtly dominated by BA and AA, with a good VS participation as well. UA´s 4 daily flights really represents good part of their profit in Europe, followed by the German routes.
So don´t intend to put UA in a kind of unreachable place. CO and DL are much more efficient in this market than UA.
Just realize that United did not expand in Europe in the last 5 years, except by code sharing with huge European Airlines.
I don´t have anything against UA, but i just didn´t agree with your "theory".

 
Shawn Patrick
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 10:07 am

Why didn't UAL go for Rome (FCO)?? Why Milan? I'll tell you, United can pick some wierd cities....
 
dellatorre
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 10:24 am

UA is also losing competetion in the LAmerican market!
"What a great airline"
 
imkeww
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Dellatore

Wed Dec 20, 2000 12:38 pm

Yes, sadly UAL has been hemorrhaging market share in the Latin American for some time now. UAL doesn't have much international confidence, except to Asia.

However, Dellatore, you assumed wrong. You might also want to take the condescension out of your post-- it's not very pleasant, you dolt (just kidding about the dolt)! I did not state a theory. I stated the fact that UAL is still significantly ahead of CO and AA to Europe as measured by the industry standard measurement of RPMs. Look at the DOT stats and individual airline traffic releases.

Yes, the NYC-LON market is dominated by BA and AA: BA has 7 daily flights, AA has 6 daily. Virgin has (I think) 4. United has 3.

However, United does not have the mere 4 flights into LHR you suggested! United alone has 15 daily flights into London. As of spring next year, the flights will be as follows:

- 3x daily JFK-LHR
- 3x daily IAD-LHR
- 3x daily ORD-LHR
- 3x daily SFO-LHR (LHR-AMS will be dropped)
- 2x daily LAX-LHR
- 1x daily BOS-LHR

Case closed.

-imk

 
ContinentalEWR
Topic Author
Posts: 3619
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 1:44 pm

Travelin' man, someone posted a thread about UA ending MEL and MXP on Sunday and if you read the
topic you ignoramus,
it reads UNITED ENDING MILAN FLIGHTS WITH A
question mark. That means I am asking a
question, not making a statement.

I even ask someone to confirm it so I am not
stating it. Alright? Get a life and read a post
before you respond to it.

ContinentalEWR
 
nwa747-400
Posts: 1325
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 3:12 pm

Northwest dropped its daily DTW-MXP becuase it didnt do well either
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 4:13 pm

Actually, loads to MXP have been overall fairly good. Not nearly as profitable as say, LHR, but not bad, either.

Someone left out the EWR-LHR flight in their observation [ ], so, as soon as LHR-AMS is dropped in favor of a third daily SFO-LHR flight, UA will operate 16 flights per day from the US to LHR.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L

 
ILUV767
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 5:30 pm

what UA is doing is routing people through LHR so they can connect to British Midland, and other Star Alliance Carriers. Its the hub and spoke concept
 
vadheim
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Wed Dec 20, 2000 5:47 pm

United is not loosing ground in Europe. Remember that United has strong partners in Europe like Lufthansa, SAS, British Midland and Austrian.

These airlines are feeding United hubs in America with thousands of passengers. Maybe the same strategy for Europe, where United feeds Star Alliance partners here for instance in London, Frankfurt, Copenhagen, Vienna and Munich. Milan is not a Star Alliance hub!!!
 
travelin man
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Thu Dec 21, 2000 1:57 am

So basically this is an unconfirmed rumor with no basis in fact.

People have confirmed UA is NOT dropping MXP in the near future, so I guess all this "united is losing ground" is pretty much based on nothing.

And P.S. United is reinstating its around-the-world flight. Are there any other U.S. carriers that can say that?
 
dellatorre
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Travelin Man

Thu Dec 21, 2000 2:31 am

What makes you think UA is better than any other just because they have a around-the-world flight.
This doesn´t stand for anything!!!!!!!!
 
Neo
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RE: Travelin Man

Thu Dec 21, 2000 2:46 am

OK we've had enough of it!!!!

There are other topics to look for..........
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: All You Big Meanies.

Thu Dec 21, 2000 3:11 am

Leave Travelin Man alone. He is my friend. 


Hey dude, yes I am freezing my ass off and I'm totally over this winter thing already (it took me 2.5 hours to get home from work a couple nights ago - normally it takes .5 hour). We've had 3 mild winters and now we're back to typical Minnesota winter bullcrap.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
OO-VEG
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Thu Dec 21, 2000 3:48 am

I don't think UA is losing ground in Europe.
At AMS they are expanding!
The flight to Chicago will become Non-stop (now this flight is AMS-LHR-ORD). And in the summer it may be replaced by the B777 instead of 767.
 
seven_fifty7
Posts: 900
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Thu Dec 21, 2000 3:57 am

From a close friend and UA employee:

There are rumors at UA about IAD-Copenhagen sometime in the future. (For possible SAS feed @ Copenhagen).

**********

Also, because of TWA's retrenchment from Spain, I think UA should consider trying to resume IAD-MAD and even consider IAD-FCO. They may do better this time around. --Now, whether UA has the balls to do it is another story. Other than Asia, UA seems soooo scared of venturing in competitors' territory.


Wimps.
 
travelin man
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Dellatorre

Thu Dec 21, 2000 8:39 am

I didn't SAY United was better because they had a round-the-world flight. I AM saying that all this talk about UA retrenching is HIGHLY ironic for an airline that is NOT pulling out of MXP and is REESTABLISHING a ROUND-THE-WORLD flight. I am typing in CAPITAL LETTERS SO YOU CAN TELL WHAT I AM SAYING.

(that is an international flight, you know!)

P.S. TWFirst is my hero.
 
SegmentKing
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Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Thu Dec 21, 2000 1:47 pm

how many other airlines schedule Boeing 747-400 aircraft on domestic US routes as well :P :P :P :P

anyhow, Melbourne won't be dropped.. just rerouted. Rumour heard today is that UA may reconsider Brisbane service and run it LAX - Brisbane - Melbourne... thoughts?

Nate
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
ILUV767
Posts: 3035
Joined: Mon May 29, 2000 2:21 pm

RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Thu Dec 21, 2000 3:04 pm

I'm happy about the flight going thorugh Brisbane.

Back to Europe:

Personally I would like to see UA expand service in Europe.

I think that they should fly the following routes:

IAD-CPH 777
IAD-HEL 767
IAD-OSLO 767
IAD-ROME 777
IAD-ATHENS 767
IAD-LISBON 767
ORD-MOSCOW 767/777
ORD-Dublin 777
SFO-HEL 767
SFO-CPH: 747
LAX-ROME 777

I would also like to see them fly to Africa:
IAD-Cairo: 777
IAD-Cape Town: 747

What do you think?
 
vadheim
Posts: 539
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2000 9:21 pm

RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Thu Dec 21, 2000 6:43 pm

Unfortunately, I do'nt think United will come to Copenhagen from Washington in the nearest future, simply because SAS has decided to start their own daily nonstop flights from Copenhagen (CPH) - Washington (IAD) in May 2001. This will be an A330 flight in codeshare with United. I think United should serve Copenhagen as a major Star Alliance hub it is, SAS is very loyal to United when it comes to feed their American network.


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ContinentalEWR
Topic Author
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:41 am

UA won't resume IAD-MAD flights anytime soon. Spanair operates the route up to six times a week and UA code shares with them.

As for IAD-FCO, it seems as though airlines make more $$ flying to Rome than
to Milan, so perhaps, if UA does indeed drop MXP, it might restart FCO. NW has
kept its FCO route. AA does very well on the ORD-FCO route, as does Delta on
the JFK-FCO and ATL-FCO route. CO also makes $$ on the EWR-FCO.

ContinentalEWR
 
767-332ER
Posts: 1974
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Shawnpatrick

Fri Dec 22, 2000 1:53 am


Milan Malpensa is currently Europe's fastest growing airport. Alitalia has moved most international traffic to MXP from FCO. Smart move by them since Rome is becoming overcrowded and Milan's market is begining to expand, I think it was a smart move by them to fly to MXP.
Regards.
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
pa121
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:15 am

RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Fri Dec 22, 2000 5:23 am

I would not be surprised to see United retire from MPX in the future. Actually TWA will pull out as well soon (after 50 years) and Delta was thinking about moving the JFK flight to Venice. Northwest left a while ago.
The point is that the lucrative business travelers out of Milan are more likely to fly the Atlantic routes with Alitalia/Continental (they do codeshare) or use a European hub instead. This would explain why American carrers suffer so badly in the fastest growing airport in Europe.
I read sometime ago that Milan was one of the best sources of business travelers for BA in Heatrow (The number of BA London-Milan flights is actually impressive)
 
The777Man
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RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Fri Dec 22, 2000 5:26 am

I don't think we'll see IAD-CPH for UA since, already mentioned, SAS will start that route. Perhaps a IAD-ARN?  . MEL could possibly be rerouted and adding Brisbane would be nice altough routing thru Auckland again is another option. The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
ContinentalEWR
Topic Author
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Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Fri Dec 22, 2000 6:19 am

PA121,

DL serves BOTH MXP and VCE from JFK daily. No flights moving there. Northwest was banking on the KLM/AZ alliance, which collapsed. I bet
that the DTW-FCO route will end soon too.

AA has made MXP profitable since it began ORD-MXP in 1991.

I think the problem here is that there just isn't quite enough demand
for transatlantic flights out of MXP to the USA. Rome is the main port
of entry for Italy from the USA, not Milan. TWA pulled the plug on the
MXP route because of KARABU. Without it, it would make a killing on
the route since it has successfully operated to Italy for close to 50 or
so years.

ContinentalEWR
 
pa121
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:15 am

RE: UA Ending Milan Flights?

Fri Dec 22, 2000 6:53 am

ContinentalEWR,

Your points are all correct. I actually forgot about American, and in the case of Delta I was not precise.
However, I do believe the main point is the largest appeal of European hubs vs US for the business traveller, not (only) lack of demand in transatlantic flights.
A possible explanation could be:
US business travelers heading to Milan might have to also visit another other European city before going back (Most US Corporation have multiple headquarters here in Europe), and so choose London, Frankfurt or Paris as gateway.
If you are Italian visiting the US, it is easier to connect in a EU hub (with no custom or immigration) and profit of a massive choice of US destinations than to connect in JFK or ORD (unless it is the final destination).

I agree that Rome is a fairly more popular destination in Italy, but the number of business traffic to Rome is somewhat smaller in comparison to Milan.

Just my two pennies, I am sure United or American have much more interesting data than I have to take their decisions!!

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