a380
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Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Dec 28, 2000 12:55 am

Why non-Indian airliners often fly into Indian airports in midnight? (like 2 a.m., 3 a.m.) etc.

Similar question for Guam.
 
A320FO
Posts: 209
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Dec 28, 2000 1:10 am

For connections at their European hubs.
They leave in the late morning, making connections from transatlantic and european flights possible. Leaving India after midnight ensures an early morning arrival at the european hub, again making all connections.

A320FO
 
ap305
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Dec 28, 2000 2:02 am

I could be wrong but this trend could also be due to temprature reasons as most foreign airlines tend to fly fully loaded 744's out of India.Tempratures could shoot up above 40 degrees celcius during the afternoon at places like Chennai which has an adverse effect on takeoff performance.
 
WorldVoyager
Posts: 373
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Dec 28, 2000 3:18 am

Although it is a real pain, the reason is quite simple; India and the Middle East are in the part of the world where, in order for flights to make it into Europe at prime time (in order to connect to intra-Europe and trans-atlantic flights), they have to leave in the wee hours of the morning. For example, a BA flight that leaves Bombay around midnight will arrive in London in the morning, in time for the late morning/early afternoon connections to North America and morning flights throughout Europe.

It is the same thing with Asian airlines. For example, a Cathay Pacific flight leaving at 4 or 5 in the morning will arrive in Hong Kong in the late afternoon, in time to connect to transpacific and oriental flights throughout the evening.

It is not only India that has this problem. The middle east is also affected (That is why many Emirates flights leave at baffling times). I don't know anything about Guam, though.

Having experienced it myself, I can tell you that it is quite something to see the pure chaos and turmoil going through BOM each night while outside, the rest of the city is fast asleep!
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Dec 28, 2000 3:23 am

AP305: No. Thats not it. Temperature? I bet there are place much hotter than Chennai and Bombay, and 744's do just fine there!

Must be for the connections.

 
nycank
Posts: 232
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Dec 28, 2000 3:56 am

Connections ? NW needs to be at a certain time @AMS, DL needs to be
@FRA to make it to JFK/LAX, similarly many EU flights want to get their pax
during mid-day.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Dec 28, 2000 5:43 am

An observation here. I just got back from BOM airport where I had to pick someone up. The flight board for 11pm-6am showed a bunch of flights, but I noted the widebodies only.

Terminal II-A

QF 743 from SYD/SIN
AZ M11 from MXP
NW D10 from DTW/AMS
DL 763 from JFK/FRA
SA 763 from JNB
BA 742 from LHR
SR M11 from ZRH
plus EK, GF, LH that I didn't see on the board.

Terminal II-C

SQ 744 from SIN
AI 310 from JKT/SIN/MAA
AI 743 from NRT/BKK/DEL
AI 310 from KIX/HKG/DEL
AI 744 from ORD/LHR
AI 744 from JFK/LHR
AI 742 from DMM/DEL
AI 742 from JED
AI 744 from RUH
AI 742 from DXB/DEL
AI AB4 from AUH
AI 310 from AMD
plus AF that I didn't see on the board.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Dec 28, 2000 7:26 am

Why is poor SIA alone with all those Air India planes?
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Dec 28, 2000 1:11 pm

Because AI is the handling agent for SQ flights at BOM, so they use the AI terminal.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
gardermoen
Posts: 1325
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:15 pm

Practically the only long-haul airline into India during day time is SAS. Its 767s arrive in Delhi from Copenhagen at about 11am, and leave shortly after. They are having such a great success with this as they are about the only airline to leave India during the afternoon, and connections can still be made in Copenhagen to the rest of Europe and America.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:34 pm

Ohhh!
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
jaysit
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Tue Jan 16, 2001 8:37 am

Actually, AI's terminal at Bombay is quite nice (for an Indian airport), having taken an international AI flight bound for Delhi from there. However, the rest of Sahar airport at Bombay is an obnoxious mess. I recently flew out of BOM on NW. Between, midnight and 2 am, it seemed like 20 flights were leaving or coming or both- I counted Swissair, Delta, Lufthansa, Qantas, Alitalia, BA, NW, IC, 2 Emirates flights, Egypt Air, 8 or so AI flights, etc, on the tarmac alone. It was a mess. The IAAI also have this idiotic requirement where you stand in line for at least one hour after check-in for something called "Emigration clearance" - an old xenophobic custom that should have been relegated to such countries as Burma and North korea, but is still alive and well in India. In effect, it allows the IAAI to keep its unions happy by staffing the 4 or so odd counters (each of which may have 500 or so irate, exhausted passengers desperate to make their 2 am departure) with idiots whose only function is to stamp your passport after staring at it for an interminable time. You are then left with 2 minutes to make it to the gate before they pull away the jetbridge. Maybe, once SIA buy up AI (one can only hope), they'll demand that indian terminals learn efficiency models and spiff up to Changi specifications too !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
anthonyd
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Tue Jan 16, 2001 1:03 pm

B747-437B

Just to clarify the QF flight from Sydney/Singapore is a B767. I fly that sector quite often and thats the only type of aircraft they use. Quite silly I feel cause during the peak season they are always fully booked in both classes and end up offloading passengers / asking for volunteers (for US$400 upwards per person). They should plan it so that during the peak seasons they change aircraft to a B747.

Regarding the mess and confusion at BOM, I believe it is due to the fact that about half the airport has been closed off for renovations thus making it even more of a mess than it usually is. There are usually 2 Immigration CLearance areas but one of them is in the section that has been closed off. I was there just 2 weeks ago and it was chaos. To top it off there is only one snack bar in the entire place thats open and that has barely enough food to feed anyone.
 
nycank
Posts: 232
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Tue Jan 16, 2001 1:08 pm

Jaysit:
It is unfair to characterize "Emigration Clearance" in India as old xeno...
Many European countries do it too  , except sometime they stamp it, sometimes they don't.

Yesterday @CDG had someone stare are our passports for a few winks, and then return it back, same last month at @BRU, @FCO - They call it passport control  . Only in the U.S there is no such exit controls  
 
toxtethogrady
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I Was Curious About This, Too

Tue Jan 16, 2001 1:37 pm

Especially since the domestic services also tend to be scheduled in the wee hours. Maybe the Indian National Railway is too much competition during the daytime.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Tue Jan 16, 2001 11:20 pm

Renovation at Bombay?
Good. It needs it.
Frankly, I dont understand why a country that has 320 days of sunshine can't build a terminal building that allows sunlight in. The current airport feels like a tomb, and the entire staff act like undertakers.

I'm not sure if Delhi is any better.

As far as domestic services go, they are not scheduled for the wee hours of the morning, except for Air India's flights.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
VirginA340
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Wed Jan 17, 2001 1:12 am

The international Terminal at Delhi needs more shops and resteraunts as well as more picture windows to see the planes taking off/landing. I was at DEL in 1998 and I enjoyed seeon the NW Dc-10s, DL 767-300s, BA, KLM, Lufthansa and Virgin 747s taking off from the airport from the international terminal and so does about everyone there. They need more picture windows so I can atleast get to one that is not so crowded. BOM is a little better but again; Needs more pic windows at the waiting areas, more shops and more resteraunts.
"FUIMUS"
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Wed Jan 17, 2001 10:12 am

A few points here :

QF is presently operating the 743 on SYD-SIN-BOM, not the 767

Hoping for windows at BOM/DEL is a pipe dream. Security reasons. If you can see it, you can shoot it. Terminal II-C at BOM actually has ZERO windows for pax to look out at airside from. Its all walls and corridors.

Some Indian nationals who meet certain criteria can get a passport endorsement for "ECNR" (Emigration Clearance Not Required). Speeds things up immensely.



"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
VirginA340
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Wed Jan 17, 2001 10:34 am

Does anyone know on when UAL will start up DEL flights out of LHR again? I would also like to know if the rumor of Delta coming back to Delhi via Frankfurt is true.

Also do any of you AA fans know if American plans to negociate with the Indian goverment to fly to DEL or BOM out of LHR? More competition is needed to lower the fare as flying to India is quite expensive as it already is. (Cheapest usually being either BA, VS and most of the time Kuwait Airways)

Sean Does FEDEX, Evergreen and UPS fly to India? I know this is a dumb question but some body said they did but yet I can't find any of their planes at the airport. I guess I'm probably there at the wrong times. If not any of these cargo carriers; Thna which one does fly to DEL and BOM
"FUIMUS"
 
a380
Posts: 652
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Wed Jan 17, 2001 11:15 am

That's kind of strange, why even AI planes like to depart in the night?
Are they all nocturnal animals?
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1693
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The Time May Soon Be Right For US-India Nonstops

Wed Jan 17, 2001 11:26 am

With the changes in the Indian economy, the increasing number of West Asian dot-com millionaires and H1B emigres living in the US, and the ability of the newer generation jets to fly the distance, this might not be so far-fetched. Candidate cities - New York, Washington, Chicago?
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Wed Jan 17, 2001 3:12 pm

Virgin A340, I saw two FedEx A300s parked at Bombay alongside a Korean 747F and two all-white DC-8Fs.

I find the contention of the IAAI that if "you can see it you can shoot it" rather ridiculous. After all the multiple levels of security at Sahar, how on earth could you shoot at an AI plane - and with what? Plus, I thought that transparency increases security. Endless corridors and walls and cul de sacs without windows seem to present a higher security risk.

Frankly, I'm not sure why a terrorist in India would wish to hit at the high security airports. All that he would have to do to wreak havoc would be to plant a bomb in a crowded market, shopping mall, cricket stadium, hotel, etc. Given the number of people anywhere in India on a busy day, that would be devastating. I was always on edge in Delhi when I was visiting the usual tourist shopping haunts because they all seemed to present security risks. In comparison, the airports were like prisons (although the Israelis at ben gurion airport do a classier act at providing security).
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Wed Jan 17, 2001 11:09 pm

UA restarts their RTW flight with NYC-LHR-DEL-HKG-LAX-NYC using 744s in April. (I am skeptical about this date though)

DL also restarts ATL-FRA-DEL using 763s in June.

FedEx, UPS, Evergreen, Polar and pretty much every major cargo carrier comes through BOM. I got some nice pictures of the new Polar 744F at BOM last week.

There are ways of taking pictures at BOM without getting shot, but they are not easy. Fortunately my dad has a private office with an airside window!  

Ref AA trying to start service to India, it is a complicated issue. The limiting element of the 1995 bilateral is not the number of FREQUENCIES, but rather the number of GATEWAYS.

Speaking from the Indian perspective, AI is allowed as many daily flights as they want between India and a maximum of 5 US gateways. These can be on AI aircraft or third-country codeshares or even a codeshare with a US carrier. Presently, AI has designated JFK, ORD, LAX, IAD and SFO as the 5 gateways. JFK is served on AI metal daily, ORD is served 3/week on AI metal, LAX is served daily on SQ metal and SFO and IAD are dormant (the original designated pre-1995 gateway was IAD and AI ran a codeshare with UA through there for a few years). AI had intention to start service BOM-SEL-SFO with 744 aircraft, but the Asian financial crisis put paid to that idea in the mid-90s.

Now, unfortunately for AI, there were pretty much only 4 *major* hubs in India worth serving (namely BOM, DEL, CCU and MAA). Hence the similar limits set on the US side were a moot point. Hence, the Indian side sets a limit on 4 US carriers allowed to serve India on their own metal. These are presently designated as DL (daily to BOM), NW (daily to BOM/DEL), UA (dormant) and FF (dormant). Additionally, a maximum of 4 US carriers NOT serving India in 1997 may codeshare to India. Essentially that means that with the demise of FF, there are 7 US carriers who may put their codes on India service (3 on their own metal and 4 on third-country codeshares), UNTIL the FF routes are re-assigned to another carrier when it will be back to 4+4.

To date, CO and AA have applied for (and received) the right to codeshare to India, although I don't believe either of them are doing so at present. The catch is that if either one of them begins a codeshare operation and later adds their own metal, they are not grandfathered in by the pre-1997 clause that NW uses for the KL codeshare, and they count towards BOTH the codeshare and own-metal limits (unless they drop the codeshare). Since both of them (probably) want the old FF routes re-assigned to them, they are holding out to get that award and then only instituting a codeshare (because if they already have rights to own-metal flights, the codeshare does not count towards the limit).
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Guest

RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Jan 18, 2001 7:51 am

Just one correction Sean,

Im pretty sure you meant IAD will be apart of the round the world trip rather than NYC, just a small clarification.

Sanjay
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Jan 18, 2001 9:10 am

Yep, you are right. I meant Washington.

Thats what jetlag does to you!!!  
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
nycank
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon May 29, 2000 6:47 pm

RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Jan 18, 2001 11:49 am

I think Sean always presents a cogent prespective (AI biases aside).
Personally I do not get upset or care, if US-IN flights are codeshares or swapped as appropriate. As long as there are enough options from NYC  

Every negotiator will and should want to negotiate the best deal for their client or their employer. From that perspective; AI/GOI would wanna do the best   Many US airlines do not really have good analysts and forecasters w.r.t south asia market. DL inherited my old airline's (Pan Am) route, picked up my good buddy who understood that region, and moved him to ATL :-(

Understanding the regional markets is not easy, and buying that intel. is expensive -- Quant/no-quant  

Having said that - Here are some mundane questions -

1. Which airline is likely to pamper (*not* my term) an India-clueless executive/team flying out of NYC ?

2. Some US airlines automagically upgrade their full-coach paying FF to the next level. Do Non-US/AI and others match it ?

3. Which carriers ex-BOM/DEL/... go the extra 9 yds w.r.t their F/C pax ?

I've been asked these questions before, and I just shrug and say "I don't know", since it is essentially YMMV.

If what I'm saying is sounding dense, Please do say so, since I've my body is still adjusting back to NYC time  

 
airmale
Posts: 7125
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Thu Jan 18, 2001 9:41 pm

Wonder what would happen if the Indian Govt was to impose curfew timings on the airpots like in the West 
.....up there with the best!
 
Ivo
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:49 am

RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Sun Jan 21, 2001 9:46 pm

Sabena is flying 3 times weekly Brussels to Madras non stop.
Tuesday and Thursday they put an A340-300 on this route. Sunday's its an A330-200.
Unfortionaly they all arrive in Madras between midnight and 02.00 Am.

Regards
Ivo
 
B747-437B
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RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Wed Jan 24, 2001 12:36 am

nycank - sorry for the delay in replying - I was in Canada over the weekend and only just got down to checking the old threads.


1. Which airline is likely to pamper (*not* my term) an India-clueless executive/team flying out of NYC ?

Answer : Depends whether they are comfortable with Indian ways and are willing to learn. If they are, then AI is the best way to go. It is the only carrier operating a direct First Class service on the USA-India route.

2. Some US airlines automagically upgrade their full-coach paying FF to the next level. Do Non-US/AI and others match it ?

Answer : You can put in a request for this service with AI (you would have to go through the Special Handling desk, but if you fly the route regularly they will take care of it without a problem), but be cautioned that AI does not upgrade into First Class. The J class cabin on AI is also pretty full because of some of the special offers AI has from time to time such as free companion tickets in J class, etc...

3. Which carriers ex-BOM/DEL/... go the extra 9 yds w.r.t their F/C pax ?

AI wins this one hands down. The new Terminal 2C at BOM is excellent and the Maharaja Lounge is somethign to behold. Having their own terminal also means that AI can offer special handling services like special desks for F/J class pax at Immigration and a special baggage claim belt only for F/J class bags.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
nycank
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon May 29, 2000 6:47 pm

RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Wed Jan 24, 2001 4:54 am

"nycank - sorry for the delay in replying - I was in Canada over the weekend and only just got down to checking the old threads. "

......................

Thanks.
Just printed out your answers and faxed it to a few folks who will begin to do
JFK-BOM-BLR on a frequent basis.

Based on your previous posts, No battery operated laptops ? right ? wrong ?

 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Wed Jan 24, 2001 5:06 am

No no no! That was only during the ultra-high security alert. AI allows exactly the same stuff on board electronics wise as any other carrier.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
747buff
Posts: 676
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2001 3:05 pm

RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:20 am

I believe TWA also holds dormant rights to serve India. Anyone remember them operating a JFK-CAI-BOM flight?
At Eastern, we earn our wings every day!
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Foreign Airlines Into India

Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:39 am

No - TW sold those rights to UA I believe.

The 4 authorized US carriers to India are NW, DL, UA and FF (dormant). AA and CO have both applied for the FF rights.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada

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