turbulence
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Runnin' Out Of Oil! What To Fly With?

Sun Dec 31, 2000 8:41 pm

Hi all.
First of all, I guess that maybe this topic should be at the non-aviation forum, but first of all, it started in this forum, and second, if it has to do with suitable for flying fuel, it has also to do with aviation. So here we go:
Last september, Aaer777 started a new topic having to do with the shortening reserves of crude. The topic went “out of topic”, but became very interesting in the ecologic point of view.
I answered two threads to this topic, one of them having to do with the silly idea of the electric cars and the pollution they create because of their nature and used energy, despite how clean they look, and another clarifying (or trying to...) the difference between water desalinization for human use (drinakble water) and water distillation for obtaining hidrogen (H2O strictly). You can read more (all) about it at http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/287669/
This thread now is because I wrote about Mercedes Benz and BMW already using hydrogen engineered cars NOW. This has nothing to do with heat pumps, fuel piles or gas turbines. Those cars have NORMAL piston engines, and you can have more information about "Zero Consumption Vehicles" (of course, at global ecologic level), which have nothing to do with the sucking stupid "Zero Emission Vehicles", which, although some hundreds of miles away (meaning in electricity production plants) actually HAVE WORSE emissions and still quadruplicate the manufacturing, entertainment, consumption and recycling costs.
http://www.bmwgroup.com/e/index2.shtml?s70&0_0_www_bmwgroup_com/6_veranstaltungen/6_3_expo/intro.shtml has explanations about past, present and future of “h” cars (including photos of the new BMW 750hL), and http://www.zukunftsenergien.de but this one is in German and, when I tried to, the “English Version” link did not work.
To finish, a very thought provoking sentence by Shell’s Council Administration member, prof. Fritz Vahrenholt:
“Spending only 1% of the ecologic tax on fossil combustibles, we could be able to make 100 gas service stations become hydrogen service ones, every year”
Hope everybody enjoy these “technological present futures”.

Best turbulences
 
turbulence
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Joined: Sun Nov 14, 1999 1:33 am

RE: Runnin' Out Of Oil! What To Fly With?

Sun Dec 31, 2000 8:50 pm

Actualization of the english version for the HYFORUM 2000:

http://www.zukunftsenergien.de/english/main/main1.html

Hope this helps

Best turbulences
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Runnin' Out Of Oil! What To Fly With?

Sun Dec 31, 2000 10:04 pm

I know that Tupolev has been experimenting with Liquid Natural Gas (though that too is a limited resource)

Hydrogen is definitely the way it will go. Of course, the Hydrogen has to be produced, AFAIK, this is done from electrolysis of water. The hydrogen returns to water when it is combusted. Effectively, the engine is turning electrical energy into kinetic energy, through the intermediary of hydrogen. This means that it will only be good for the environment if the power generation is from clean sources (solar, geothermal, nuclear, wind, tidal) and not from pollutant sources (coal, oil, even gas and gas turbine).

Another environmental problem is that when hydrogen is combusted in air, which contains nitrogen, the heat causes the nitrogen to react with oxygen, which creats NOx (Oxides of nitrogen), which are all harmful to the environment.

A nice thought would be aircraft with giant solar panals accross the wings (and of course plenty of battery capacity, should the sun be obscured by cloud) that uses electrically driven propellers (before you say that propellers are useless for modern jet age aircraft, remember the turbofan gains most of its thrust not from the jet, but from the air that is bypassed, going through the fan, which is actually a type of propeller, albeit somewhat more complex than the prop you see on the front of a Cessna.). If the design was perfected, such an aircraft could reach similar speeds to the contemporary jet aircraft, without NOx and CO/CO2 emissions.
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
turbulence
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RE: Runnin' Out Of Oil! What To Fly With?

Sun Dec 31, 2000 10:16 pm

No, no.
No electric engines. Solar electricity would be the best for electrolysis, but then the hydrogen is directly burnt into absolutely normal piston engines (except for the high pressure injection, which otherwise is already used in normal diesel) like the ones we know today. Could it be possible to burn hydrogen in jet turbines, too?
 
watewate
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RE: Runnin' Out Of Oil! What To Fly With?

Sun Dec 31, 2000 10:20 pm

I say they build pedal planes  
 
aaer 777
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RE: Runnin' Out Of Oil! What To Fly With?

Sun Dec 31, 2000 11:45 pm

First of all, thank you Turbulence for all the useful updates and it is good to know that the topic is still at the back of someone's mind...
It is only through more widespread awareness of the problem that we can expect something to be done. It is only once an economic force (i.e. a growing number of consumers demanding non-damaging means of transport) is present that we can expect some serious budget to be set aside for real progress.
I don't want to sound mean Virginflyer, but anyone who has read anything about the impact of the Tchernobyl disaster would find it hard to concider nuclear energy as safe... (and that's without even mentioning the growing problem of stocking nuclear waste...)
Keep these planes flying!
Let's just REALLY try to make them CLEAN.
It certainly won't be done overnight. Time to put the skates on!
Which part of "NO" do you not understand?
 
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RE: Runnin' Out Of Oil! What To Fly With?

Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:41 am

I guess burning hydrogen is too dangerous. In small amounts, we do it in the school lab and it gives a pop sound. In large amounts, we'll get another Hindenberg (or Hindenburg?).

While the only waste is pure drinkable water, electrolyzing water for hydrogen is costly. It's not very cost effective doing that.
 
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RE: Runnin' Out Of Oil! What To Fly With?

Mon Jan 01, 2001 2:11 am

High speed trains over land and we shall go back to crossing the Atlantic on ocean liners YAY!!!!!
 
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RE: Runnin' Out Of Oil! What To Fly With?

Mon Jan 01, 2001 2:16 am

oh yeah and also crossing the seas (and overland even) by airship like the Hidenburg only filled with helium lifting gas. Man that would be AWESOME. I would LOVE to do that (cross the Atlantic in an airship like the Hidenburg).
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Runnin' Out Of Oil! What To Fly With?

Mon Jan 01, 2001 2:28 am

HAHAHAHAH surf good one man!!!!!!!!
 
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Runnin' Out Of Oil! What To Fly With?

Mon Jan 01, 2001 6:58 am

Well, Nuclear power is clean, as long as the station is maintained very well, and waste is effectively handled. Agreed, there are a lot of risks associated with nuclear power.

Liquid hydrogen can be, and already has been, used in gas turbine type engines.

Ryaneverest - Drinking water isnt wasted, as the when the hydrogen is burnt in oxygen, it simply becomes water again, which will condense in the air, and eventually fall to the ground as rain. While electrolysis may be costly, hydrogen is a very powerful fuel. A problem of course is where to store it? Because it is a lot less dense than jet fuel, it will need a much larger, and also heavier, tank. I remember an Airbus concept that had the tank above the cabin, like a second deck, and I have read about having the tank behind the passanger cabin, although this could make for a very long aircraft. Some of you may be thinking why not just have it in the wings. The problem is, Hydrogen would have to be stored in dive-cylinder like tanks, which makes for problems when you want to fit the fuel tank into the wing.
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh