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Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Sat Jan 06, 2001 9:27 am

Super-jumbos to fly in

Perth ideal touchdown for non-stop Euro jet
By Bruce Butler

Perth International Airport has been earmarked as a possible centre for super-jumbos flying non-stop from Europe to Australia.

Perth is the only major Australian airport which will be within striking distance of the long-range jumbos coming from Europe.

With the aircraft unable to fly non-stop to Sydney, Perth emerges as an option as a stopover or potential airline hub, to become a gateway to the rest of Australia and New Zealand.

Planned $80 million upgrades will have Perth airport ready to handle the super-jumbos by 2005.

Qantas and Singapore Airlines - two of the most frequent flyers through WA - have orders for the giant jets.

Airbus is building a 555-passenger A3XX, which will be in the skies by 2005.

Rival Boeing's equivalent, the stretch 777-200LR, will be in the air in three years.

A Pacific Asia Travel Association report on future aviation hubs in Asia, says: "In light of the (Boeing) 777-200LR 's operational capability could Perth emerge as a non-stop gateway to Australia from the UK market?

"While some questions have arisen about the ability of many airports to accommodate the huge size of the A3XX in terms of gates, terminals, parking space and runways, Airbus says the aircraft was designed to operate in those specific airports that could be expected to handle the aircraft, namely large hubs such as London, Singapore, New York and Tokyo.

"A number of airlines have indicated their interest in the A3XX. According to Airbus, the likes of Emirates, Singapore, Air France, QANTAS and Virgin have expressed strong interest in buying upwards of 60 of the new aircraft model, presumably for operations on their large inter-hub routes."

The PATA report hints that a second international airport could be required in WA to handle the super-jumbo traffic.

But Ric Gates, general manager of Westralia Airports Corporation, said Perth International Airport - bigger in area than Heathrow - had the space and capacity to handle the big jets without building another airport.

"By 2005 we will have built a satellite international terminal that will be capable of accommodating the super-jumbos," Mr Gates said.

He said the planes, 10-15 wider and longer than existing jets, would need wider runways and taxiways, but not longer runways.

They would be housed in 80m by 80m parking bays.

"Whether Perth was to be used as a hub is up to the individual airlines," Mr Gates said.

"But there wouldn't need to be a second airport in Perth. We have got an airport that is well and truly capable of taking them.

"Look at the size of Perth - we have 2100ha - Heathrow has about 1300ha. We have got so much capacity, we wouldn't need another airport."

If WA were to become an international air-traffic hub, it would mean millions of dollars to the WA economy and enormous employment opportunities.

QANTAS has announced it will purchase 12 of the A3XX aircraft between 2006 and 2011 to meet passenger growth on long haul routes.

The planes have a range of 7800 to 8150 nautical miles - putting Sydney out of range.

Likewise, Perth is the only southern Australian airport which the Boeing 777-200LR could reach non-stop from Europe.
 
VH-BZF
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Sat Jan 06, 2001 10:06 am

Hey Scotty,

I think SQ will probably operate their A380's down to Perth but I think that's about it! Perth may have a place as a one-stop destination for the A340-500/600 or B777X aircraft for Syd/Mel to LHR, in the future. We'll wait & see!

Cheers - BZF 
Ansett Australia - (was) One of the worlds great airlines!
 
airnewzealand
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Sat Jan 06, 2001 12:51 pm

I donot think Airlines will operate the A3XX to perth. I think they would carry out there normal flight plans as usual and stopover in Singapore or Bangkok.

Just my opinion.

Cheers
mikey
 
Trvlr
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Sat Jan 06, 2001 1:45 pm

Perth, Lima, Bogota, and Caracas are the four cities that will benefit the most in terms of new service opportunities because of aircraft like the A380 and 777LR. Perth's location provides an excellent hub location for BA/QF to consolidate services to Australia, without the cutthroat competition between them and SQ. Lima/Bogota/Caracas, on the other hand, are the main major cities in South America that are able to be reached from Asia (Tokyo). By flying to these airports, Asian airlines can completely bypass LAX for Asian services.



Offhand, notice that it is possible to fly from New York to Port Moresby on a 772LR. If that isn't halfway around the world I don't know what is.

Aaron G.
 
AFa340-300E
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Sat Jan 06, 2001 10:30 pm

Hello,

As far as the manufacturer's figures are concerned, they are always a bit biased, as they don't include freight and all the IFE carried by airlines, and which are of course necessary.

As far as bypassing a SE Asian hub for LHR-PER: carriers operating on the Kangaroo routes generate an important amount of freight (thus revenue) through this stop-over. What is embarassing for pax on their way to Australia (or Europe) is also an advantage for carriers.
Furthermore, SIA, CX, and MAS will put an intense pressure in terms of yields on QF and BA if they decide to open LHR-PER, as the Kangaroo routes generate a great part of their total revenue.

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
DatamanA340
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Sun Jan 07, 2001 3:30 am

Don't be confused. A380 is not one for longer range. Yet it has longer range than 777ER or 747, but Airbus offers 345 for carriers who need the 'World Rangers'. Well, 777LR, all right. A good thing for Europe-Australia. Both have great performance (though it's only on sheets.)
 
aduum
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Mon Jan 08, 2001 2:38 pm

How will the Perth Airport People know if these Airlines(Qf and SQ etc) will be using Perth as a hub so that they can begin the renovations or additions to the present terminal.

WHen they do find out that these two will fly to Perth wont it be a little late to begin the structure so it can handle these aircraft and passenger numbers??

Also Isnt the Perth terminal(shaped for easy extensions) but it is currently very small in terms of handling 500pax at a time, as in going through customs and immigration. THey will have to reshape the whole airport in order to handle these numbers of people am i right? And if so how will they do that without building a hwole new terminal?

Wanting to hear your thoughts.

Aduum,.
 
krisworldB777
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Mon Jan 08, 2001 3:13 pm

I certainly do hope that Perth will get the A380 and new long-haul aircraft on offer from both Boeing and Airbus but why? It seems quite stupid to me. What is the benefit in Qantas, for example, flying direct from London to Perth and then on to Sydney? They already fly through Bangkok where I am sure they generate more business. Perth is a small city, it seems quite strange to me.

I have a brochure from 1997 on the airport and it has plans in it for the extension and upgrade. The airport can handle more flights. You must remember there are 48 hours in a day. I do doubt that all these long haul flights are going to arrive at the same time. Oh well. I'll keep my fingers double crossed - plane spotting could be about to become a lot better for me!
 
B727-200
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Mon Jan 08, 2001 3:38 pm


I agree with KrisworldB777. If the main market is LHR-SYD then why would you stop in PER as opposed to SIN / BKK / HKG?

Also, we must remember that for SIA to fly PER-Europe non-stop they require the appropriate "Freedom" rights between the two member states (cabotage rights).

Also, what about Darwin? It is in range also.

B727-200.
 
aduum
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Mon Jan 08, 2001 3:44 pm

Thats what i though..........why extend Perth when the current flights stop over in Sing/Honk where the airports can handle the traffic. And there is only 24hours in a day isnt there??  

So what did that 1997 brochure look like for the extensions?

Aduum.
 
Guest

RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Mon Jan 08, 2001 4:23 pm

Whilst I think the newspaper report is a bit presumptuous, I do believe that SQ may just flight the A380 down to PER on a few of their 21 weekly PER-SIN flights.

The QF idea may not be that far fetched. Why wouldn't it make good business sense for them to do LHR-PER non-stop flights. Even though the market is actually LHR-SYD...what is stopping QF from positioning say a 767 in PER for the onward flight to SYD (much the same as is what is done in SIN). Wouldn't this lead, in the long-run, to better utilisation of the A380?

If anyone has S$100 handy, can you please go and buy the PATA report which this is apparently all covered in?

B727-200

Although it would be difficult for SQ to get PER-Europe rights, it wouldn't be all that difficult if they wanted to offer Australia-Europe non-stop flights. All they have to do is to lease a number of A380s to Ansett, and Ansett can operate the flights for them under rights which Ansett currently hold, and under current arrangements, I am sure that SQ could also codeshare on such flights. Win...win....right?

BA are expected to begin flights to PER again once the 777LRs are received. It has been rumoured that these will be non-stop as well, and competition will be needed to counter this (if this is the way it will be).

You mention Darwin. Yes, they are in range of the A380. However, they don't have the market (i.e. freight) which Perth can offer.

Alain

As you mentioned above about the freight. The freight marker ex-PER is burgeoning at the moment. SQ don't have 3 daily PER-SIN flights to fly tourists....they have 3 daily PER-SIN flights to carry freight and half of this freight is bound for Europe. If QF, for example, were to offer non-stop PER-UK flights, they would surely pick up quite a lot of this business which they have lost to SQ and MH over the last few years, as there would not be the need for a few hours stopover in Singapore or Kuala Lumpur, and in this day and age, timing is everthing.

Aduum

There have been plans for the expansion and addition of a satellite terminal at PER for some time. As to timing when construction and that will start I have no idea. I have contacted Westralia Airports Corp. to see what info they are able to give out at this time....just wait and see what they have to say I suppose.

Cheers

Scotty
 
tim
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Mon Jan 08, 2001 5:32 pm

Very well explained Scotty!

Hopefully you will be able to get some stunning A380 shots on approach to Perth like you did with the Qantas 747SP last night  

Regards
Tim
Perth, Australia
 
avman
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Mon Jan 08, 2001 5:46 pm

I think QANTAS will provide direct flights to LHR from PER using A380's. Perth is like a home away from home for many English people. QANTAS would have no problems filling an A380 especially in the northern winter when English tourists come to Perth to visit relatives.
 
aduum
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Mon Jan 08, 2001 6:22 pm

what do you mean by satelite terminal?
 
B727-200
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Scotty

Tue Jan 09, 2001 8:25 am


Hi Scotty, how's things in the beautiful West?

The comment you made about SQ leasing A380's to AN would be one hellova cool thing for our industry, but I doubt it. The ugly Step-mother (NZ) would not be that radical as to allow AN to have the "Flying Metworst" before them.

Interesting about your codeshare comment. Yes, AN has rights into LHR (currently used as codeshare on SQ), but they need slots in LHR to operate it. Also, I am not sure if SQ can be involved in a codeshare between two states without bypassing their own home state. Codeshare rights are exactly the same as operating freedoms.

But then there is your BA comment. WA is full of x-pat poms, and the 777 is the perfect size to connect onto a QF B763 to the eastern states. I think the size and the business product that the A380 gives would make it more viable to fly into the very crowded SYD however. You would need at least 2 B767-300's to carry the oncarriage from PER if you stopped it there as well.

Seeya,
B727-200.
 
tim
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Tue Jan 09, 2001 10:34 am

Here is a fairly recent pic of the proposed Perth Airport extensions issued by the WAC. I wouldnt have a clue if/when these extensions are to take place.




Regards
Tim
 
aduum
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:29 am

Those two little things would cost $80 million dollars?

Who do they pay to build these things
 
Guest

RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:00 am

Talking about SQ A380 into PER, it was possible as I have seen quite a number of SQ B744 and B773 into PER during the festive season like Chinese New Year last year, so it will be in seasonal basis and it also depends of the facilities provided for A380 in PER. But the I really doubt the possibilities of SQ A380 operation from PER to Europe. Even though it might be a good revenue route, but for sure Qantas will stop them before the OZ government approved for it. Beside that, don't forget in the sense that OZ governement also earned some shares in Qantas.
 
tim
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:12 am

As mentioned above (I think)
They (SQ) would have no trouble filling an A380 from PER-SIN becaue currently they have 3 widebodied flights daily from PER-SIN using 777's and A340's.

Regards
Tim
Perth
 
Aerotech
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Wed Jan 10, 2001 12:31 pm

Does Perth see enough traffic to be an A-380 hub?
 
tullamarine
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Wed Jan 10, 2001 12:34 pm

Whilst it is possible A380s will use PER it isn't very likely.

A few Reasons

A380s are going to be of most use to their owners at slot restricted airports, shifting more people without the need for getting extra slots. PER-SIN is not slot restricted so pax appreciate the frequency of 3 daily services. One A380 a day is nowhere near as attractive. SQ will use its A380s into SYD because it fills its 744 services into there but can't add anymore services due to lack of slots. The A380 is the only way to add capacity to this route outside of departure times which are useless for onward services.

QF will continue to use Asian ports such as SIN, BKK, or HKG as their European stopover. Apart from the huge yields earned by QF on picking up Asian pax then taking them onto Europe, QF also can use Asian ports such as SIN as hubs. 744s (A380s) from MEL and SYD and 763s (A330s) from BNE and PER can all arrive into SIN at similar times and pax can be transferred onto services going to London, Rome, Paris and Frankfurt. A non-stop PER-LHR does not offer this flexibility.

SQ will not be leasing their A380s to AN, at least not in the short term and even then probably for Pacific services only. They need them themselves on slot restricted routes such as SIN-LHR. SQ want to encourage use of their SIN hub and the Singapore government wants them to as well for economic reasons. They have a very effective hubbing arrangement established already whereby the operate as a pseudo Australian airline with multiple daily flights out of all Australian mainland and NZ ports which dovetail with onward SQ services throughout Europe and Asia. The SQ investment in AN/NZ gives them access and ownership of quality airlines in a region perfectly placed to feed services onto SQ services. It also offers them access to routes they cannot fly in their own right such as SYD-LAX where we may see an AN A380 one day (more probably 744s).



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772/E/W,300,310,319,320/1,332/3,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,SF3,ATR
 
Cleco
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Wed Jan 10, 2001 12:58 pm

I think the airlines will stick with Sydney, it sounds like this Perth A380 stuff is wishfull thinking, but what do I know?
EMBRY-RIDDLE BABY
 
aduum
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:59 pm

What about the QF service Johanesburg-Perth-Sydney which Qantras cureently operate a 747-400 service?? WIll that be replcaed by an A380 considering it is flying into Sydney or is tha plane not full enough to support this change.

Aduum.
 
Guest

RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Wed Jan 10, 2001 2:51 pm

B727-200,

"""The comment you made about SQ leasing A380's to AN would be one hellova cool thing for our industry, but I doubt it. The ugly Step-mother (NZ) would not be that radical as to allow AN to have the "Flying Metworst" before them."""

Ha Ha, that's a great line "the ugly stepmother"...

Actually the ugly step mother is just about to get a bitch slap from SQ for their shennigans at AN.

I can see a few points here that would make a lot of sense, however, QF do receive a lot of freight and cross service with their flights to Asia. To suddenly redirect these services would cut into QF's profits. I could see a few "direct" flights but probably not with the Skytanic.

With slot restrictions in YSSY to remain in place one would presume that it will be the Skytanics base. I was under the impression that QF indicated that they would be used at first on the YSSY - LAX route because of a shortfall in slots and capacity.


Who knows though, stranger things have happened. And pure speculation until Skytanic streches her wings.

mb
 
tim
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Wed Jan 10, 2001 6:15 pm

CleCo wrote:
"I think the airlines will stick with Sydney, it sounds like this Perth A380 stuff is wishfull thinking, but what do I know?"

The A380 does not have the range to fly to Sydney. That is what we are discussing in this thread.

Aduum wrote:
"What about the QF service Johanesburg-Perth-Sydney which Qantras cureently operate a 747-400 service?? WIll that be replcaed by an A380 considering it is flying into Sydney or is tha plane not full enough to support this change"

Unfortunatly for Perth Enthusiasts this flight will not be routed from Perth as off sometime next week. However SAA are increasing their 747 services from PER-JNB from 4 upto 5 per week.

Regards
Tim
Perth, AUS

 
aduum
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RE: Perth A Potential A380 Hub?

Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:50 pm

THanks Tim.

Timmay!