Guest

Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 4:00 am

In the case of the UAL/US merger:

Philly is just so close to Washington where they already have a hub and Charlotte?.....WHY? JFK/LGA would be a better hub city for UAL. I say, forget Charlotte and Philly and Pitt and make JFK/LGA the new UAL east coast hub. Thoughts?
 
Ryefly
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 4:17 am

Charlotte would be one of their best choices for a super hub. Don't forget Delta is not far away over in Atlanta. Pitt is another good solution because it is a new airport in a good area for expanding route stuctures. Philly is a good alrenative for passengers although I aggree that this hub may is the least attractive of the three for expansion in my opinion due to Washington.
 
Guest

RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 4:20 am

Isn't IAD more of an express hub? I think United has less than 100 flights/day there, although I could be wrong.
 
UPS Pilot
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 5:04 am

JFK/LGA as hubs?

Apparantly you haven't experienced air traffic around New York recently. You think flight delays are bad now, if UAL would make either of these two hubs then look out.

U.S. Airways is building a large maintenence hangar at PIT. plus has the majority of the landing slots in PIT. I had heard United was to keep PIT as a hub. This would cover the north east and mid atlantic area.

Philly is a different story other than being close to NYC and having quite a few flights to Europe. But you made a good point about Washington being close. Maybe AMR will use Philly as a hub?

CLT would be great for United. This allows them a large hub for the South East with plenty of slots and direct competition with Delta.
 
Guest

RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 5:24 am

Acutally I *have* experienced air traffic in NYC lately, quite often enough...though I never use LGA only JFK, and I've never had a delay problem due to traffic. What I mean by "hub" is like what Delta, American, and (for not much longer) TWA and like what Pan Am used to have at JFK. I mean, it's NYC, one of the countries two most important cities (the other being L.A.). I would think United might want a large presence here.
 
thomacf
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 5:26 am

The traffic has declined alot over the last few years in Pitt. UAL will use it as a hub for a few years just to please the Penn. Legislature, but down the road I can't see it being a very large hub with ORD, IAD and Philly so close by, with higher populations also.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 6:17 am

It must be remembered that Philadelphia is the 4th largest city in the country. It is building new regional and international terminals for US/UA and it, along with Newark, are really the only true connecting hubs in the NE. I highly doubt UA will rid itself of this goldmine w/ 70% marketshare. It is very congested, but I think the O&D traffic makes up for it.
 
Guest

RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 6:51 am

Surf, not to bug you, but didn't you have that bad NW food experience on LGA-MSP? Not JFK, the airport you fly out of?
 
Guest

RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 7:03 am

yes it is the one and only time I ever used LGA as an arriving passenger. I have never used LGA departing.
 
Rai
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 7:27 am

UPS Pilot, LGA is BAD! EWR is much the same. But JFK is way under capacity. UAL can add plenty of flights. The main problem I see is passenger connections, but this is a short term. They're building much larger terminals at JFK. The Air-Train should also help things emmensely once it's completed.
 
Guest

RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 7:46 am

JFK needs some major improvements before it could be a hub for UAL and there are very few connections to its other major hubs. Amongst the foreigners I know, all are amazed that such a great city has such a terrible airport.
 
desertjets
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 7:52 am

The more I think about the UA WOULD NOT eliminate any of the US hubs.

First of all by buying USAirways they would be adding nearly 400 aircraft, give or take the planes that are destined for DCAir, and with that many aircraft come hundreds of daily flights. Where would United put them. The only hub in UA's network that has room for expansion right now is Dulles. ORD is overcapacity, Denver needs more terminal space, SFO is waiting for a new runway, and LAX can only handle small scale expansion.

Secondly, the reason behind buying USAir was to get its extensive East Coast network, why then abandon the route system after going through the trouble and expense of getting it. This is not a merger for the sake of getting extra equipment and personel.

But since we are speculating... here are mine.
Charlotte gets built up into a superhub... possibly bigger than Denver, but along the same size, with some international flights... LGW, CDG, FRA.
Pittsburgh stays for the immediate long term... it is a fairly large airport with room to grow, it could suppliment ORD and DEN well as a trans-con hub from the northeast.
Philly is the odd man out, the international slots could very well be moved to IAD, CLT, or ORD. But it is a large city and US has a dominating presence there. But it is also the smallest of the US hubs too.
BWI, hasn't been a real hub in ages... look for Southwest to take over the place.

My 2 cents worth.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Guest

RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 8:06 am

DesertJets: becuase the only thing UAL *really* truly wants out of the deal is the NE Shuttle.
 
ScottB
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 8:38 am

United keeps the hub at PHL due to the high O&D traffic there - that means high fares and big profits. They also keep CLT, but it will not be anything like ATL or DEN because the Charlotte metro area simply isn't large enough to support that. And CLT already has service to LGW, CDG, FRA.

PIT is sort of the odd man out, though I suspect they'll also keep it in order to help relieve pressure on the hub at ORD.

As for BWI, Southwest already owns the place. MetroJet is flying 737-200's which are all 17-21 years old. And United wasn't able to directly compete on the West Coast with their United Shuttle (well and make a profit doing it). The new pilots' contract won't help. BWI doesn't fit with the IAD hub there.
 
Guest

RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 11:00 am

I don't think UAL is that concerned with the NE Shuttle, they have already agreed to share it with American. UAL needs USAir to feed there Asia routes. Currently UAL enjoys the majority of the Asian market from Chicago west, soon they may have the same market advantage east of Chicago to Asia.
 
BonanzaFunjet
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 12:20 pm

I'd say that Airtran is making the move on PIT. Today they announced a fourth flight to ATL and another to LGA. Airtran PIT service just started Dec 12th, and already they are adding flights.

BonanzaFunjet
 
PITrules
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 12:58 pm

I think PHL would stay because of its population, even though the airport sucks and has no more runway capacity for expansion.

PIT has had its traffic fall off, but because it has so many competing hubs in the region (ORD, CLE, CVG, DTW, IAD, PHL, etc.), and because Wolf has successfully turned PHL into a congested version of EWR instead of expanding PIT. I think it would be a mistake for United to dump PIT because it is the only airport with existing capacity for growth in the Northeast (IAD has plans for a new concourse, but when it is finished, the existing C & D gates will be torn down, so I don't see the total number of gates increasing much until well into the future). US Airways' int'l flights at PIT are doing pretty well too, that Frankfurt A330 is always packed. I think things at PIT would look up if United would put some RJs in here. ACA is getting at least one per month for the next few years, but has no room to put them at IAD or ORD.

CLT is in a great position as it has only ATL and RDU as competing hubs.
FLYi
 
jderden777
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hub

Thu Jan 11, 2001 1:31 pm

CLT would be a great hub for UA to keep!! i wonder if the F100s that US flies now CLT-TRI would be changed to perhaps a 737 or A319!!  
"my soul is in the sky" - shakespeare
 
Guest

RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hub

Thu Jan 11, 2001 1:39 pm

I don't think UAL decided to share the shuttle with AA voluntarily. If they didn't have to, they wouldn't. They are doing it to satisfy antitrust concerns....they want the NE shuttle.
 
travelin man
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hub

Thu Jan 11, 2001 2:39 pm

I'm sorry, but I don't see ANY airline needing FOUR hubs within a few hundred miles of each other. UAL will keep maybe TWO of those cities at the most (IAD plus one). Whether it is PHL (doubtful), PIT (maybe), or Charlotte (maybe) is TBD.

Remember, folks, having a hub does not JUST mean having a significant presence. It means having a significant connection operation, and you just don't need that many hubs. For instance, AA/Eagle has something like over 200 daily flights out of LAX, but they do not call LAX a "hub" because most of the traffic is O/D, with only limited connections.

So even if United decides to only keep one or two hubs, it doesn't necessarily mean that the other cities will be abandoned.
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 2:57 pm

DesertJets, I agree that Charlotte would probably be built into a superhub. United has been upfront from the beginning that it wants to compete big in the Southeast--they surely envy Delta having taken O'Hare's title, and want a piece of that massive SE region action. Charlotte has a good layout, room to radically rebuild the terminal into a more hub-friendly design, and a strong local economy to generate O&D traffic. Look for more flights to Europe indeed.

(I write all of this undecided on the merits of the UA-US-AA-TW square dance on the table right now. But now that AA has jumped in, UA-US is suddenly a possibility again. Before it was rightly dead in the water on antitrust grounds. But now it needs to be pondered again.)

Philly will do extremely well. Philly is a huge O& D market that was ignored for years, especially by international carriers, because of the proximity of NYC. It's got lots of O& D to support a hub, and it's well located to funnel Mid-Atlantic pax south, west, and transatlantic. The return of LH, the arrival of AF, and US's continued strength there are only the beginning. If Philly figures out some way to get *widely spaced* parallel runways--eg moving UPS and building one south side, or buying land across I-95 and building one North Side--its value as a hub would shoot up even more.

BWI will become a Southwest stronghold as you say. US has decreasing use for it other than as an O& D market where they're competitive, I think, and I don't see how that situation would change with United colors on the planes.

PIT may be the odd man out, but I think it's going to stay in the game, whether with United or someone else. PIT's O& D base can support a 20 million pax hub if not a larger one, and it's not congested and has one of the best connecting terminals in the country. Edwin Colodny made it richly profitable for USAir, and I think it's still going to be a substantial hub, if not on the scale UA would build CLT or PHL.

All that open unused runway and terminal space makes me wonder if PIT is ripe for a WN invasion. Then the O&D and connecting possibilities would swell. AirTran is already building up there. That complex could handle 30 million with little modification and someone will likely make money doing just that. What do others think?

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Ryefly
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 3:08 pm

I wonder how much of an increase the US will see of international carriers to these hubs. With United being part of the Star alliance I'm not sure it really matters. Although perhaps in some cases it could make a major difference in the ammount of slots offered, correct?
 
N628AU
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 4:34 pm

PIT...Yes. United has agreed to open another large maintenace facility there. Godd reliever for ORD, especially when the Chicago weather goes down.

CLT...Yes. United will build it to compete with Delta at ATL. Few delays, a new runway to built, and new commuter and international concourses are under construction. Also a very friendly local government, who makes a ton of money off US already.

PHL...Yes, but will be changed IMO. Will see more long-haul service I would assume because of the high O&D. I would be very happy to see it used less for North-South connections because of the ATC problems they have there.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Thu Jan 11, 2001 9:55 pm

Not only do they intend on keeping PHL as a hub, they are adding new flights there too!
PHL-Vancouver
PHL-Copenhagen
PHL-San Jose, CA
and one other one that escapes me.

UA cannot abandon PHL as it would cause big outcry and many people would lose their jobs.

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
Krushny
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Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Fri Jan 12, 2001 1:48 am

UAL will sure keep CLT as a hub. Only hub in the Southeast, it's one part of the country which has been growing a lot lately. They can compete head to head with Delta at their home , put more international flights to CLT and they could get a lot of intl passengers from/to Dixieland...
As for the Northeast, UA/US has too many hubs and I do not think they will keep the three. And probably IAD is not the best positioned one, it is basically at the center of the East Coast, PHL area has more inhabitants... What do you think?
 
Philly Phlyer
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Fri Jan 12, 2001 4:11 am

UAL will keep all the hubs (IAD, CLT, PIT and PHL). You need to quit thinking only in terms of distance and begin thinking in terms of market and capacity. The fact that hubs are further apart in the midwest has more to do with population base and market. The population base in the Northeast is much more dense so the distance between hubs can be much shorter.

CLT is not just an alternative to ATL. The Carolinas are one of the fastest growing regions and this is a prime location.

As to the other three hubs, with the high density of population in the Northeast, IAD, PHL and PIT can and will exist and be profitable. The market has supported it in the past and shows no sign of letting up. The DC / Northern Virginia market and the Mid-Atlantic region (Delaware / Philly / Southern Jersey) have the population and corporate base to support both IAD and PHL with VERY lucrative fares (they do this already).

I would see PIT keep going more the way of Delta in CIN with more regional jets and smaller mainline jets while PHL gets more of the larger jets to meet capacity needs without adding too many more flights. IAD probably will get more north / south connecting flights. The changes, however, will represent more of refining the markets than anything.

UAL wants to keep all three fortress hubs (CLT, PHL & PIT). That is what they are buying! Note that they intend to spin-off much of their DCA operations and are willing to share the shuttle with AA. They are not, however, sharing the three fortress hubs. If they didn't want to keep one of these, AA would have bought that too!
 
Guest

RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Fri Jan 12, 2001 5:25 am

UAL isn't *willing* to share the shuttle, they are doing it to satisfy antitrust concerns, for both UAL *and* AA.
 
airNondo
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Fri Jan 12, 2001 4:57 pm

Not to be discouraging, but I highly doubt CLT would ever be made into a 'Super Hub' as some have stated. No matter how good the expansion opps and on-time performance the airport offers there is simply not enough people in the CLT metro area to make it into a large hub. I predict it will remain a significant hub for UA/US passengers connecting to the South East, and select int'l destinations. But why would they significantly expand CLT internationally when IAD is not too far away and offers multiple times the O&D int'l traffic... not to mention IAD being far enough away from the DC that congestion and restricted air space are not a major problem.
 
D L X
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Fri Jan 12, 2001 5:55 pm

Some stats for you:

Denver: 1,978,991 (-)
Charlotte: 1,417,217 (+)
Washington/Baltimore: 7,359,044 (+)
Philly: 5,999,034 (+)

North Carolina is the 11th most populous state in the Union (and growing fast). Charlotte is on the border with South Carolina (also growing).

CLT-IAD - 350 miles.

Philly Phlyer sez: "You need to quit thinking only in terms of distance and begin thinking in terms of market and capacity. " This is exactly the case. There's a reason why US has been so dominant in the east: complete and comprehensive coverage of the east coast. That's why there are so many hubs in close proximity. That is also why flying US was great in the winter: if one hub was slowed by weather, you can be routed through other hubs. (Unlike TWA.)
 
sas767
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Fri Jan 12, 2001 6:10 pm

Hi Greg/USAFHummer

From where have you heard that UA/US is going to start a PHL-CPH service. AFAIK the plan was to start a IAD-CPH service with UA B767. This plan has now been scrapped as Star Alliance SAS has decided to open IAD-CPH in may 2001.

Kind rdgs

SAS767
Copenhagen, Denmark
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Fri Jan 12, 2001 10:24 pm

SAS767,
Straight from UA's website, they used to have a map (i think it was recently taken away) showing the new routes they were going to add, and PHL-CPH was one of them.

About PHL's proximity to IAD, its a three hour drive and a 2.5 hr. train trip. Not many people from Philly would be willing to do such a thing, the logical thing would be to expand BWI since that is receiving a lot of business from Pennsylvania based travelers (2 hr. 15 min. drive, 1 hr. 45 min. train trip). An article in the Philadelphia Inquirer said that 11% of cars in BWI's parking lot had Pennsylvania license plates on them.

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
sas767
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RE: Would UAL Really Keep PIT, PHL, And CLT As Hubs?

Fri Jan 12, 2001 11:46 pm

USAFHUmmer

Sorry but this is Wrong - the UA map shows IAD-CPH and not PHL-CPH.

Anyway I would like to see a PHL-CPH route, but it's probably very unlikely seen in the light of the new SAS route to IAD  

SAS767
Copenhagen, Denmark

 
ord
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RE: USAFHummer

Fri Jan 12, 2001 11:46 pm

I have the route map from United's site right in front of me. The route is IAD-CPH, not PHL-CPH. Of course, PHL-CPH may be in the works as well.

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