Early Air
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767-400 Success

Sun Jan 14, 2001 4:03 pm

It seems that the Boeing 767-400 is not doing as good as planned. There are only three airlines that have them Delta, Continental, and some other airline I know it is in Asia. I don't really understand this. The 767-400 is a very nice plane. I flew on it recently. It it like a 777 but smaller. I think the other airlines should buy the 767-400. What do you think?
 
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iahcsr
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RE: 767-400 Success

Sun Jan 14, 2001 5:25 pm

Have patience. More will come.
Working very hard to Fly Right....
 
hkgspotter1
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RE: 767-400 Success

Sun Jan 14, 2001 5:52 pm

I think more will come, may be two or three !!!
 
cba
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RE: 767-400 Success

Sun Jan 14, 2001 6:26 pm

Just wait, eventually AA, UAL, and other 767 operators will be placing orders.
 
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RE: 767-400 Success

Sun Jan 14, 2001 6:31 pm

That was a very mature comment Hkgspotter1. Very mature indeed.
 
ishky15
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 12:52 am

Pardon my word choice here, but many third-world airlines are in the process of what to replace their elderly widebodies with, such as Czech Airlines. It's a battle between the 767-400 and the A-330. I think that if Boeing wants the 764 line to continue it must win an order very soon.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 12:58 am

I believe that the following two airlines will place orders for the 767-400ER: AA and UA.

The reason is simple: they need a true replacement for the DC-10. Don't be surprised that AA and UA each order a minimum of 40 planes.

NW could place an order for the 764ER, depending on if they chose Boeing or Airbus wide-body jets as the DC-10-30 replacement.
 
WorldTraveller
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 1:25 am

The problem the B764 has is that it was designed for the US market, to do coast-to-coast and Hawaii flights.

The problem is that it lacks range, this is why it is unsuitable for many international carriers like EVA Air, which recently ordered the A332 despite the fact that they already have a B767 fleet.

The same applys to many carriers.

Hmmm, and with the B767-400ERX (extended range) coming out as late as 2004, I can't see many more orders for the B764 in the near future.

Besides that, it has a very good competitor....the A330-200, a bird which most experts agree was the best thing Airbus ever designed.

Regards
the WorldTraveller
 
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RayChuang
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 1:30 am

WorldTraveller,

However, Airbus has been disappointed with the sales of the A332--they were hoping for quite a bit more. Must be the fact that many airlines ended up buying the 777-200ER instead with its larger capacity and definitely WAY longer range.  

However, don't forget that the 767-400ER's development costs are really cheap, since it is just another derivative of the 767. Boeing does not need to sell lots of them to get back the development costs.
 
WorldTraveller
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 1:49 am

RayChuang wrote:

"However, don't forget that the 767-400ER's development costs are really cheap, since it is just another derivative of the 767. Boeing does not need to sell lots of them to get back the development costs"

Well, but why will it then take four (!) years just to add some additional fuel tanks in the horizontal stabilizer???

I never understood that!  

Best regards
the WorldTraveller
 
raggi
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 3:34 am

The 764LR ( or ERX ) will get more than just new fuel tanks. It will need strengthening of the fuselage and probably also landing gear.
As it will have new engines as well ( Trent 600 or GP 7200 ) this also takes time to develop.
My prediction is that the 764 will never be a very strong seller, in either ER or LR form, but will sell adequately enough.
Look for orders from AA an UA, and perhaps more from DL in the near future. Airlines reportedly interested in the LR are Condor, Alitalia, LOT,AA and CO.
Stick & Rudder
 
gerardo
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 4:28 am

RayChuang

why do you say, that "Airbus has been disappointed with the sales of the A332--they were hoping for quite a bit more." ?? I think you must make a little confusion with the A342, of which only some 28 were sold.

The A332 took about half of all A330 orders, although it was launched some 4 or 5 years later. The A330-200 is - in my opinion - the masterpiece of Airbus.

The A330-200 has above all 3 major advantages over the B764: range, fleet commonality with A320 and A340 and cargo (the A330 can comfortably accommodate 2 LD-3 containers side-by-side.).

The range problem of the B764 will be less, once the B764ERX will be introduced, but sales of this improved aircraft haven't been picking up. However, the B764 might have a perfect chance in the US, as some major US airlines could order it for DC-10 or L1011 replacements.

Regards
Gerardo
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777kicksass
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 4:52 am

Dont forget that the 737 initially lost out to the BAC 1-11 and the dc-9 but that hads become the biggest selling jet of all time!!!!!!!
 
Notarzt
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 5:33 am

Folks...

Just to complete the first post: the third customer for the B767-400 is Kenya Airways.

What are Boeing's major problems with the B767-400ERX? Why do the airlines have to wait until 2004 (if this date was stated correctly)?

Daniel
 
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Gerado

Mon Jan 15, 2001 5:35 am

Gerado,
It looks like most airlines don't really care about commonality between the A330/340 and narrowbodys. Look at how many airlines are operating A330 with Boeing narrowbody fleets. And I see alot of people are trying to hype up the 76s "problem" of not having enough cargo capacity, please.
-Tom
 
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RayChuang
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 7:00 am

I think the reason why the A332 took half the A330 orders is simple: many airlines wanted a plane akin to the A300-600R but with a bit more range and slightly more seating capacity. That's why it's a very popular plane for Transatlantic operations.
 
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Notzart

Mon Jan 15, 2001 7:06 am

Hey,
I believe Kenya should have the 764LR in service by 2003, not 2004.
The Best, Tom
 
WorldTraveller
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 7:20 am

just to get it straight (i.e. from the manufacturer):

From Boeing.com:

"The first longer-range 767-400ER will be delivered in the spring of 2004."

Regards
the WorldTraveller
 
tullamarine
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 8:31 am

Boeing has been desperately trying to sell the 764 to SQ as an A310 replacement in competition to Airbus offering the A332. This would be a breakthrough order as it would involve 15+ planes and could lead to 764 sales with SQ's equity affiliates NZ and AN.

It is possible that NZ/AN will go with 764 regardless of what SQ do as they both have substantial 767 fleets already but if Airbus gives SQ a killer deal then I'd guess NZ/AN would want to be part of that.
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gerardo
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RE: 767-400 Success

Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:04 pm

King767

How about writing my name correctly?   

Seriously: cargo isn't a hype, it's revenue!! Many airlines, for example Swissair, LH, and many, many others, generate lots of revenue thru cargo. I have been said, that airlines in the US tend to give less importance to cargo, but I don't know.

And fleet commonality with A320 and A340 is interesting. For example: Swissair is said to save costs of about $50Mio per year with fleet commonality of A320 and A330. But this fleet commonality also depends on legal things and of course on the unions. For example: Iberia had great problems to introduce the A321, although it is only a stretched A320.

Regards
Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
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Gerardo

Tue Jan 16, 2001 4:51 am

Sorry about that Gerardo*.
No of course Cargo is a big thing, but the so called "problem" the 767 has with handling cargo is all but a hype. Although the 767 can not handle 2 LD3 containers side by side, Boeing produced a modified LD-3 container, called the LD-3A, which could fit next to a standard LD-3. So saying that the 76 is cargo deficient is total bullshit.
Now the fact that most airlines see cockpit commonality as a priority is true. Yes there are alot of European airlines taking advantage of this with all AI fleets, but really look at all the airlines, particulary the Asians who operate all different types. For example KE, has a Boeing shorthaul fleet, but uses the 330 for Heavy regionals, and then uses the 744 and 777 for long-hauls! other good examples are MAS, Thai, and AirChina. There are many other airlines like this, not just Asians.
The Best, Tom
 
Notarzt
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RE: 767-400 Success

Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:44 am

Folks...

As for the cargo issue... the past 20 years have shown that the alleged "LD3 container problem" does not count for the world's major airlines. In fact, the B767 has sold out the A310 by far, and - in addition - the B767-300 (to which Airbus did not and does not offer any competition) is one of the most renowed medium-capacity, long-range aircraft - not to mention its recent cargo success.

Regarding the B767-400. It's correct, sales were going slow so far and there are only three customers for the time being. However, it's a typical transcontinental widebody aircraft - similar to the basic models of the L-1011 and the DC-10 - and, in fact, the major US airlines are just in the process of getting rid of their medium-range widebodies. For the next two or three years to come, the B767-400 models will receive a decisive push, I am sure. By the way, I do expect the same for the B757-300.

Daniel