ContinentalEWR
Topic Author
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 10:27 am

I overheard an interesting conversation recently about the quality of airline service in the US, with particular
focus on amenities, like in-flight personal TV's on long
haul aircraft, cabin design and so forth.....it seems as
though Continental and American (according to the 2
people I heard talking) are far ahead of the domestic
competition in offering a product that is across the
board in its reach. Continental has PTV's on all 767's
and 777's and flip down ones on all 73NG and a few
of the 737-300's while American has its "More Room
in Coach" initiative, which unlike United's Economy
Plus, benefits all economy customers, not just those
who pay horrendously high fares for lousy, less than
dependable service that the US industry has become.

I think Continental and American and to a much much
lesser extent, United, are far ahead of the rest of the
pack in quality of service. The people who were talking
about this mentioned that Northwest, Delta, HP, and
US are cattle car transporters and nothing more. I
think there is some validity to this argument. Neither
of these airlines offer anything beyond marginal
service.

If the second and fifth biggest US airlines can do a
decent enough of a job, why can't the rest? Are
Northwest, Delta, US Airways, and America West
truly awful airlines?

ContinentalEWR
 
Trvlr
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 10:29 am

America West is, you are right, just plain awful. I haven't flown them in a while, but I don't think Northwest is that bad.

Aaron G.
 
VirginFlyer
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 10:33 am

Perhaps you should take a look at USAirways' A330, if you care about inflight entertainment... Admittedly it isn't on all the fleet, but its better than what some other airlines offer.
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
N863DA
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:36 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 10:43 am

I think you are correct - but to exclude your blessed airline from the list is somewhat misguided.

Personally, I believe that it is just the result of having more than 50% of the country moved by air every year - it has become nothing more than a reliable Bus service.

Anyone who has travelled on other airlines from outside of the US, for example Swissair and British Airways, will know that THEY know how to run an airline. (Albeit Heathrow needs work, but it's the same problem as in the US because it's just so darned busy.)

There is no doubt that of the majors, DL is seriously lagging behind. But it comes down to what you SHOULD expect. I just expect a transportation from A to B in (relative) comfort. I will conceed that you get that on AA and CO perhaps - and don't get it on Delta any longer on any other than the Shuttle - but it's still all just a means to an end. I think that PERHAPS - just PERHAPS - people expect a little too much? If you're used to travel in Europe or on European / Asian carriers, then it's not surprising that you expect it - but for us, we are not used to it, and thus shouldn't expect it.

In short, yes you are right, but both American and Continental are just as guilty as every other airline in the country.

FLY DELTA JETS and sail UNITED STATES LINES



N 8 6 3 D A
 
Guest

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 10:51 am

Oh come on....didn't you hear about our new simulated seat pitch? "I think it'll be very noticeable. We're not adding additional seat pitch, but customers will feel like they have additional legroom." (From the Atlanta Journal/Constitution) And we have 12 oz. beverage cups- a far cry from the industry average of 8 oz. Plus we give passengers nice free electronic headsets fo watch Delta Horizons and charge $5 for air tubes to watch the movie we picked from the newspaper!
 
EIPremier
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 11:48 am

COEWR---I don't wish to offend you, but you seem to often present a rather black and white view on things.

Personally, I really don't think there is that much difference between the carriers. None of the majors really stand above the rest. If I had to pick two carriers that do consistently differentiate themselves from the competition, I would pick AA and CO, as you did. But all carriers seem to have their strengths and weaknesses. They all have the same problems...just some not as much as others.

I suppose you are correct in that CO is a little better than other airlines in offering in-flight entertainment (all planes except some some 733s 735s, and MD-80s). However, I think UA has the edge in this catagory, because they offer Channel 9/audio on almost all planes, and also do not charge for headphones.

I would say AS, AA, and CO are the leaders in customer service. I think there is a fairly noticable difference between these carriers and the others in this regard. AS is also the leader in speeding passengers through the airport (e-ticket machines, web and wireless check-in, roving agents and the like). CO has done this to a slightly lesser extent, and the other carriers are now just scrambling to catch up.

I do think Northwest and Delta have made some notable efforts to improve service. I'd say HP is really the only carrier that is lagging significantly behind, although even they are trying to make significant improvements to catering and operational performance.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 12:00 pm

You've got a lot of nerve putting Delta down there with the likes of HP, NW, and US.

But these words come from the man who believes Continental can do no wrong... so what else do I expect? A fair analysis? HA!

DeltaSFO
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
nwa747-400
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Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 12:27 pm

DELTASFO:

You've got a lot of nerve putting Delta down there with the likes of HP, NW, and US. ....


NW down there...excuse me?!
 
DeltaSFO
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 12:29 pm

Actually.... NWA747-400, you're right. I apologize.

NW has is consistently toward the front of the pack in service as well as on time and baggage handling performance.

ContinentalEWR is pretty uninformed.

DeltaSFO
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 12:33 pm

I have to disagree that DL gives poor service...

I have gotten better service on DL than I got on any of my CO, UA, US, or AA flights. In one case, I was flying DEN-CVG-PHL, and we were 15 minutes late in DEN due to some problems with double-assigned seats and the like. The plane was PACKED.

The captain, who was NOT happy that he was late, apologized probably 5 times as we were waiting to get under way, and then during the flight, personally came back to ensure that peoples' connections were intact.

Never, ever had I seen such a great example of customer service and satisfaction. That incident is the reason that when I can, I always go DL.

Now, if you want to talk awful service, AA is at the top of my list, particularly at DFW. Rude gate agents, flight attendants who could only smile if they used lipstick to draw the upward-curving lips, and interiors in AWFUL condition... so, the rule is that when confronted with AA, I have to wonder if I should just drive.

Now, DL does have work to do with their IFE... and with the coach seats on the 777, which are admittedly awful... but overall, DL is firmly superior to US/UA/AA/CO.
 
Delta15
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 12:47 pm

To tell the truth I think that continental and delta seem to be pretty darn similar as a whole. The only difference in my oppinion is that delta flys more compfortable air craft for us routes, and ARE better in terms of lost baggage and customer service. aircraft, seat pitches, meals, routes, hubs, and alot of other things are almost identical.
 
nwa747-400
Posts: 1325
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 12:52 pm

Thanks DELTA SFO!

Check your respected by section of your profile  Smile
 
cba
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 1:45 pm

Remember ContinentalEWR, we can't say anything bad about Delta on this forum or DeltaSFO (and many other Delta fans) shoot back claiming that Delta can do no wrong.

I have flown Delta many times, and I can rate all of my experiences as average. I have flown CO many times, and they are great airline to fly. I recently flew UAL for the first time, and they were pretty good. I've flown AA alot, and they were also good. Never flown NW.
 
AerLingus
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 3:09 pm

Actually, NWA is quite good. They are up there for on-time performance except for flukes such as the big thing at DTW last year. They were one of the first airlines to institute e-ticketing and they are the first airline that allows you to print out your boarding pass via your home pc. While they don't do everything to give you 'more room in coach' or a ptv for long-hauls, they have certainly set the pace for the technological advancements when it comes to efficiency.  Smile
Good day,
AerLingus

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DeltaSFO
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 3:13 pm

Remember ContinentalEWR, we can't say anything bad about Delta on this forum or DeltaSFO (and many other Delta fans) shoot back claiming that Delta can do no wrong.

Cba.... you've obviously not paid very much attention to some of my past posts. I have never claimed that "Delta can do no wrong."

I am one of the first to criticize the way management is handling labor, the way management has handled cost cutting, and management's attitude toward employees.

But to categorize us among HP and US is absolutely ridiculous. We are consistently among the industry leaders in terms of customer satisfaction, on-time performance, and baggage handling. And we managed to make more money last year than any airline in history. Certain individuals in this forum seem like they should add "Delta bashing" to the hobby section of their profiles. We're not perfect, we're not the airline we used to be, but we're not a bad airline by any stretch.

DeltaSFO
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
a32
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 3:54 pm

I haven't read all the messages here however I must defend NWA.

OK so there are no PTV's in the domestic fleet but how often do you hear about a turbulence encounter on a NWA aircraft. Ever hear of the turbulence plot. Well NWA pioneered it and uses it everyday to get around. But hey ... that is not important. How about Polar routing to the orient... oops NWA leads there too... but then again you would rather have a gameboy in your backseat.

A good car is not one that has all the luxuries but rather one that gets you there safely from point A to B and gives a fairly smooth ride. But then I suppose that you choose your car based on how many cup holders and speakers it has vs what is under the hood.

regards
 
EIPremier
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RE: Aer Lingus

Mon Jan 29, 2001 4:01 pm

Actually, AS has had web check-in since September of '99.
 
nwa747-400
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 5:01 pm

I think he meant one of the "big" carriers....not sure but I think that might be what he meant....
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 5:38 pm

My views on the various airlines are well documented, but I will recap them here since we seem to be having a decent debate. Lets consider them in alphabetical order by IATA code :

AA : American Airlines has shown itself to be a leader of the pack when it comes to application of innovations. Granted they may not come up with the original ideas themselves, but their application of these concepts is superior to anyone else. Examples here would be the More Room Throughout Coach initiative, the Flagship Suite in First Class, etc... Don Carty has shown himself to be a worthy succesor to Bob CrandAAll and is beginning to make agressive moves with the compay. AAdvantage remains the most widespread reward program and a huge asset to AMR Corp. One of two dominant carriers in OneWorld, which assures extensive global reach. No labor problems worth speaking of and a stellar reputation for reliability. Route structure is very thin in Asia and needs improvement on the West Coast. Overall : 8.5/10

CO : Continental continues to do it all with mirrors. Although they have failed to make any major improvements in any aspect of their operations in the last year, they continue to win Airline of the Year awards. That speaks volumes for their reliability and consistency. Gordon Bethune is the most respected CEO in the industry, and his shrewd maneuvering over the DC Air and the TWA/AA merger have served important roles to ensure that the competition doesn't win any market share too easily. Labor loves Gordon, although there may be a nasty showdown between mainline and Express in the mid-future. OnePass remains an industry leader, but some rumblings of discontent are being heard - definitely not a lock for the Freddie Awards this year. No international alliances worth speaking of, but strong domestic alliance with NW. Route structure is non-existant on West Coast and Asia-Pacific is provided through Continental Micronesia. Overall : 7.5/10

DL : Delta continues to bring in huge profits, but may be alienating their customers in the process. The unpopular Simply Good Business initiative led to the creation of the even more unpopular Revenue Protection Unit. Leo Mullin is an excellent corporate officer, but may not be ideally suited to be an airline CEO and this may hurt Delta's long term strategic planning. Exceptional financial planning and fuel hedges ensured that Delta was the major carrier least affected by skyrocketing oil prices. However, the 2000 Q4 figures leave much room for concern from both a fiscal and operational standpoint. A total absence of unions helps keep labor largely under control, although the pilots are getting restless. SkyMiles has deteriorated significantly as a loyalty program with the introduction of unpopular changes. SkyTeam alliance is still in the teething stage, but already has major question marks. Very weak in Asia and could use more routes in northwest/upper midwest areas. Overall : 7/10

HP : America West has come a long way and is the only carrier born after deregulation to be considered a major today. William Franke remains a highly anonymous and unpopular CEO. Morale among employees has rarely been lower and operational standards are being severely compromised as a result. Labor is not a major issue. Alliances are poor, and the replacement of Continental with TWA as a strategic partner is a step backward rather than forward. FlightFund is an undeveloped shell of a loyalty program, although it is frequently innovative in its marketing strategies. No transoceanic routes and extremely poor east coast presence which can be corrected by better utilization of CMH hub. Overall : 3.5/10

NW : Northwest is the most underappreciated brand in the marketplace. Despite delivering stellar fiscal and operational results, the airline remains plagued by public relations disasters that skew perception. Operational standards are impeccable and the Q1 2001 balance sheet will be the healthiest in memory. John Dasburg is the best strategic planner in the industry and many of his ideas from his KPMG days are only now becoming industry norms. Northwest continues to lead the majors in technological enhancements with pioneering technology such as web check-in, E-Service centers and interline E-ticketing. Labor issues appear to have finally been put in the past, with only the mechanics left to sort out. Alliances with KLM transatlantically and Continental domestically are seamless and a model of efficiency. Lack of a true global alliance is the only missing piece from the route structure, but an extensive network of partners takes care of this too. WorldPerks has been enhanced recently and remains a powerful loyalty tool, albeit not to the same extent as AAdvantage and MileagePlus. Overall : 7.5/10

TW : TWA remains an economic anomaly in the marketplace, displaying an inability to link operational performance to fiscal results. Long term debt has ruined TWA and the Karabu agreement doomed them to financial ruin. Operationally, TWA displays optimal efficiency and remains the standard that all carriers can merely aspire to. William Compton has displayed great skill in handling the sinking ship, but has merely been able to postpone the inevitable. The lack of any pressing labor issues can be attributed directly to the popularity of Compton. Route structure is midwest-centric, but that remains a liability of Karabu. No presence at all in Asia and very limited European service. Middle East and Carribean remain strong markets. Domestic alliance with America West is a welcome step in the right direction, but international alliances remain relegated to minor carriers. Aviators is a strong product as far as loyalty programs go, but remains a by-and-large undiscovered brand. Overall : 5/10

UA : United Airlines cannot have a worse year than they did last year. Labor disputes, operational problems and daring strategic moves all contributed towards the annus horribilus that was 2000. However, a very strong response to these problems has ensured that United will recover its dominant place in the industry. James Goodwin appears to be finally understanding his role as CEO and the move to acquire US Airways was an outstanding piece of maneuvering. The contract awarded to the pilots though will have far reaching implications on the entire industry, and will hurt the bottom line. As a charter member of the STAR alliance, United maintains the most comprehensive worldwide network of routes. Their position in the Asia-Pacific market is incredibly strong. Domestically however, the South is badly neglected. Mileage Plus meanwhile remains the most complete loyalty program after AAdvantage. Overall : 6.5/10

US : US Airways averted a major catastrophe when they were able to come to terms with the flight attendant unions at the 11th hour. However, CEO Stephen Wolf remains organized labor's most despised person since Frank Lorenzo. Operational and fiscal figures are nothing spectacular, although the impeding acquisition by UA helped inject some interest into the stock. Domestic route structure remains completely reliant on the Atlantic seaboard and routes to Asia are non-existant. No alliances worth speaking of. Dividend miles is a poor program that is in serious need of an overhaul and rebranding. Overall : 5.5/10
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Guest

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 9:46 pm

Hey 747,

Good writing, and from my personal experiences you seem to be pretty on target.

But you forgot the one major, that's consistently profitable and whose passengers generally give 'em high marks: WN..

-From the Alamo City
 
FlyBoeing
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 9:51 pm

Northwest/KLM is the most OVERappreciated airline of the year for me. My family has gotten to the point where we can check in late for our NW flights and still make the inevitably delayed plane. We've had a total of 50 hours of delay from them in the last three segments we flew. You'd think that they'd try to make the international passengers happy but they didn't. Never Northwest again for me. Good old Continental.
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Mon Jan 29, 2001 11:06 pm

OK you guys....As a customer, my experience has been that ALL OF YOU have had bad days/months/flights/whatever. It is a bit unfair to compare those that have PTV's to prompt bag service for example or "more room in coach" to US airs A 330 or whatever.

AS a paying customer(this year looks to be about a 75,000 mile year for me) what I expect is to be treated with respect(I pay your wages), An on time departure if at possible, to be told the truth abpout delays,not to be treated like just another body when I fly coach, prompt bag service at arrival, etc. Yes, AA's more room in coach" makes it easier to get a decent seat in coach,yes TWA has had great on time performance, yes, on Delta you still MIGHT see some of the old traditions, yes, CO you guys have performed a miracle in turning that company around.
SO, all that said, I make this point..Due to repeated poor performance/attitude,etc, I avoid HP at all costs, and last summer soured may of us on UA. IN a few weeks I will give "Uncle Leo" and his crew several opportunities to be evaluated. CO & NW, maybe later this year, ok? You guys missed one carrier that still has the right stuff most days...Alaska/Horizon..pretty good!

Thanks for letting me add my 2 cents from the customers point of view.
 
Guest

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 12:40 am

Well, of course when you have an airline who has been able to buy a whole lot without having to pay (creative chpt.11) twice, then you will have a nice service. Service is nice on most domestic carriers, some of course offer a little more right now.
 
Guest

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 1:31 am

Northwest is not bad. They have the best customer service. Northwest is an excellent airline.
 
notdownnlocked
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 1:36 am

If you guys had read any of COEWR's posts you know that he is blinded by his love for CO. He has only posted this to leave the rest of you here to fight. Why not just ignore him and his posts. As you can see he has not posted to this thread since he opened it.
 
twa
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ContinentalEWR

Tue Jan 30, 2001 1:41 am

Enough ContinentalEWR. Seems like you really have something against these airlines. Well heres my opinion:

Delta: Being from Atlanta, Delta is my home airline, and my favorite. I think they are the best due to their Route System, Fleet, Service, and Connections.

Northwest: Great airline with great service. I used to fly Northwest from MCO-MEM all the time. They were great!!!!!

US Airways: They are not my favorite, But I have not flown them so I really cant judge them but a lot of people say they are good.

America West: GIVE THEM A BREAK!!!!! I had some problems with them, But it didnt cause me to hate them. They have a great livery, Great Employees!!!, A nice Fleet, and pretty good service.

Overall ContinentalEWR, I dont take anything you say serious.

Regards,
TWA

P.S. I think Continental is one of the worlds best airlines, and I will fly them anytime.
 
CactusA319
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RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 1:47 am

B747-437B:

I liked your post and you are pretty much on target. One thing though, HP did not replace CO with TW as a codeshare partner. They still codeshare with CO and actually increased the scope of the agreement shortly after the TW deal. However, HP bought back the stake that CO had invested in them.

 
imkeww
Posts: 676
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:48 am

Quick Chime-In To Coewr Re: PTVs

Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:05 am

UAL, by the end of the year, will have the largest PTV enabled fleet with: 29 767-300ERs, 53 777-200/ERs, 44 747-400s all having PTVs in all classes! 136 PTV-enabled widebodies... Can anyone else in the world claim that?

What's more AA's MRTC, while providing all passengers with more legroom, gives passengers on average 2.5-3" greater legroom resulting in 33.5-34" (a standard on many foreign airlines already), UA's Econ+ gives a select FF amount of travelers 5" more on average, resulting in 36" of legroom.

-imk
 
Guest

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:34 am

UAL, by the end of the year, will have the largest PTV enabled fleet with: 29 767-300ERs, 53 777-200/ERs, 44 747-400s all having PTVs in all classes! 136 PTV-enabled widebodies... Can anyone else in the world claim that?:

But can any other airline claim such poor operating statistics?


 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:52 am

CactusA319 - I didn't say that HP/CO had terminated their codeshare agreement - only that HP was gravitating towards TW as a strategic partner to replace CO. This divorce is obvious when you consider how CO is taking back their ground handling from HP at stations such as LAS, etc... Also, if you look at HP's maintenance operation - they are gravitating towards TWA's MCI base for a lot of their work now. It is a definite shift in allegiance, which is probably good for HP in the long run (since they will always be the black-sheep of the family with CO now that the CO/NW alliance is firmly entrenched), but a step backward for them in the short term.

FlyBoeing - your experiences with NW/KL are the exceptions that prove the rule. NW finished 2000 as the #2 on-time carrier behind only TWA. Continental finished #3 for the year. So your statements about CO being more reliable than NW are factually inaccurate.

TheCroupier - I did not include Southwest or AirTran or Alaska or National in this analysis because none of them can be considered to be part of the mainstream industry per se. Their scope is either regionally limited (FL, N7 and AS) or they are essentially operating as a parallel industry (WN).
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
D L X
Posts: 11631
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 3:01 am

"US : US Airways averted a major catastrophe when they were able to come to terms with the flight attendant unions at the 11th hour. However, CEO Stephen Wolf remains organized labor's most despised person since Frank Lorenzo. Operational and fiscal figures are nothing spectacular, although the impeding acquisition by UA helped inject some interest into the stock. "


What does any of this have to do with the quality of service you get on US? Nothing at all. I could debate some of the facts, but they aren't relevant. Fact: I've been treated much better on US than on AA. US' seats are better than most. US' seat pitch is better than most, and you don't have to pay extra to get it. (Especially cramped UA.) But, all in all, they're all the same.

"Domestic route structure remains completely reliant on the Atlantic seaboard"
So? If you live on the east coast, US is your best bet. If your going to any second- or third-tier city on the east coast, you have to take a prop on any airline but US.

" and routes to Asia are non-existant. No alliances worth speaking of."
Except AA, Austrian, SwissAir, Northwest, etc.
" Dividend miles is a poor program that is in serious need of an overhaul and rebranding. Overall : 5.5/10"

Ummm, no. Try using your UA miles sometime. Cannot compare to the ease of getting a free flight on US. (Especially the off-peak 20k domestic tickets.)

This comes from a person who has flown over 100k miles on US, and around 50 on UA and AA.


And about ContinentalEWR, he doesn't actually ever say anything based on fact, or substantial. All he wants to do is stir the pot, and take pop-shots at US whenever he can. (I think they landed a plane on his sister in Kansas or something.) My advice: ignore him.
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 3:29 am

DLX wrote :
>What does any of this have to do with the quality of
>service you get on US? Nothing at all.

I apologize in the event that my analysis was a little too comprehensive for your liking.

In the future I will restrict my postings to stuff like "WOW! USAirways flies the lovely Airbus330 and they are the best and Boeing can go die" or something similar.

Only on airliners.net can you get attacked for thinking too much about an issue.... Sheesh!  Smile

Also ref: Mileage Plus versus Dividend Miles - the DM linkup with AA comes to an end in August 2001, and the Qualiflyer linkup will soon follow as US continues to prepare for assimilation into STAR. Simply put, you cannot even compare US and UA's award redemption choices - UA is in the major leagues while US is lucky to get out of A ball.

Finally, running half empty DC9s to Elmira, NY and its brethren in BFE does not a good airline make. US has many issues to address.

"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
twa
Posts: 819
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:59 pm

DLX Is Da Man!

Tue Jan 30, 2001 3:43 am

You go DLX!!!!!

TWA
 
ord
Posts: 1354
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: B747-437B

Tue Jan 30, 2001 4:27 am

I respectfully disagree with your take on AA vs. UA. If you want to compare the two, they are about as equal as airlines get. I'm not talking about this past year, as UA had their problems or, say 1993, when AA had theirs, but over the long haul. Actually, over the past 10 years UA has been a far greater leader than AA. Examples:

1. Launch customer and operator of the 777. AA didn't fly it until a full four years after UA!

2. Better entertainment by offering more planes with IFE, Channel 9 "From the cockpit" and now free headsets. Try flying AA from Chicago to the west coast for the past 8 years. While UA has used mostly 767s and A320s, AA has used MD80s. Nobody wants to fly 4-5 hours with no IFE! They're just now starting to use 737-800s, again 8 years past when UA put new aircraft on these routes.

3. Frequent travelers I know prefer Economy Plus to MRTC. EP gives you the extra benefit of being a top flier. If everyone drove a Rolls-Royce, it wouldn't be exclusive! Further, EP gives those FF more room than even MRTC. And, most important, it's more profitable because UA is getting a higher share of the FFs who but big-buck tickets -- that's a fact as I have seen the research. AA mat be getting more families going to Disney World, but that's not where the profits are.

4. I don't see much difference between UA's First Suite and AA's Flagship Suite. They're pretty similar to me.

5. AA has a stellar reputation for reliablility? They're never near the top of the gov't. statistics, and have just recently rebounded from being the most complained about airline in late 1999-early 2000.

6. oneworld doesn't have anywhere near the market strength as Star.

7. UA's weakness in the South is nowhere near as bad as AA's along the west coast. Even with their buildup there, UA kills them. And, if UA gets US and the Charlotte hub, some of the problems will be solved.

8. MileagePlus is every bit the equal as AAdvantage in terms of being "complete."

I've to get going, but if you like AA better than UA for emotional reasons just say so. But don't rate AA 8.5 and UA 6.5. There is just simply not that much difference between the two.
 
cdfmxtech
Posts: 1319
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 11:37 am

CO - Airline Of The Year...

Tue Jan 30, 2001 5:52 am

'NUFF SAID
 
Guest

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:21 am

IMO, most airlines are pretty close toeach other. Everyone here has an airline they love to hate.

But, back on topic, my favorite is AirTran. I was delayed twice because of them, but both times we were constantly updated of the situation, and they even had anyone who had a tight connection move to the front of coach(bus. was full) so they ha a better chance of making it. They have some of the least resticted fares in the industry, and can still turn a profit.
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:23 am

I have to disagree with putting Economy Plus over MRTC.

I don't like AA, as mentioned earlier in the thread, but MRTC is brilliant. Economy Plus is just another elitist strata of fliers who are more valuable than others, while AA is saying that everyone should benefit. That's smart.
 
ILUV767
Posts: 3035
Joined: Mon May 29, 2000 2:21 pm

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 7:19 am

So many people put down United, lets look at them for a second.

Dispite their labor troubles last year, they have risen back, and the general population has forgotten. On United, all of the wide body international planes have Personal Televisions and every movie is free.

United will feed you on flights longer than 90 minutes. On flights over 2.5 hours, there is a good chance of a hot meal, with more than one choice. It is not un-common to see three entrees in coach on domestic flights longer than 3 hours.

United's hub structure is one of the best in the industry. With hubs in Chicago, Denver, Washington, New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles passengers can get anywhere in the Untied system is 3 flights or less.

The new Denver hub links passengers from anywhere in the United States to anywhere else. Their network in the south may be somewhat lacking, but it is there. From Chicago, you can get almost anywhere in the system. The only places that are hard to get to are some of the Pacific destinations from ORD.

SFO and LAX togther make every other airline jelious. United Shuttle is widely recognized as the industry leader. With Shuttle First and Shuttle Economy, there are two classes of service while the competition offers only economy. United has a great network on the west.

Washington Dulles allows passengers to get anywhere UA serves on the east coast. It is also our Europe gateway. Dulles is the backbone of the eastern US system.

United's european network is not as good as Delta and Continental's. Ture they serve more destinations but UA serves the real markets. CO and Delta tend to serve more of the dinky markets. UA flys many flights a day to London Heathrow, Paris,and Frankfurt. They also serve BRU, DUS, AMS, MUC and MXP. With Lufthansa, British Midland, Austrian Airlines, Tryolean (sp?) and so on, you can get any where in Europe.

Ture, UA has delays, but who does not? SFO gets fogged in and DEN/ORD get snow. All of these things cause delays system wide. Thats part of life.

The delays have been non-existant on my last few flights. In December I went to SNA from SFO and back. Both flights left ontime, and arrived early. Two weeks ago, I went to SAN on Shuttle via LAX, and all of my flights were ontime.

-ILUV767
 
twa
Posts: 819
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:59 pm

ContinentalEWR

Tue Jan 30, 2001 7:23 am

Isnt it amazing how ContinentalEWR doesent have the guts to come in here and back his post up???

TWA
 
nwa747-400
Posts: 1325
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:28 am

Why is it that after the hell United put millions of people thru this summer we all just forgive and forget so quickly while it takes years for other airlines (such as Co and NW) to rebuild repuatations?
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:38 am

Some more comments on responses:

ORD : My analysis is purely based upon 2000 actual performance and 2001 projected performance. UA was the market leader prior to 2000 and will likely be the market leader after 2001. But the summer from hell ensures that they lag behind AA, CO and others during this period. IFE and "Channel 9" is not a major issue with travelers. It is nice icing on the cake, but will not win business. The EP versus MRTC and FirstSuite versus FlagshipSuite debate is subjective and can be argued ad infinitum, but the numbers don't lie in that AA has won more new business as a result of these than UA did - however it should be said that these numbers are significantly skewed by UA's summer from hell. Reliability refers not only to operational statistics but to a number of other factors including profitability, customer service, etc..., all fields in which AA has maintained mid-upper pack status for a while. MileagePlus comes in second to AAdvantage because while MP is an excellent TRAVEL loyalty program, the sheer scope of AAdvantage is larger because of the new linkup with AOL. I will not argue oneWorld versus STAR as there is no doubt STAR is superior and I have stated as much in my initial analysis. However, based upon the time frame this analysis is considering, I cannot see how I can rate UA any higher than a 6.5 and AA any lower than 8.5. Yes, the summer from hell hurts UA THAT MUCH!

Lowfareair : AirTran is still a regional carrier and it will be interesting to watch them convert their operational philosophy to a national arena. However, they are not in that league yet.

ILUV767 : I point you to my response immediately above. There is no way UA can be considered a market leader after their complete and total mismanagement of the summer from hell. Yes, Goodwin and team have taken great steps to correct this, but that is damage control and a large amount of damage was already done. You have no arguments from me that UA *should* be up there at #1 or #2, but their performance in 2000 makes them lucky to beat out US, TW and HP. Watch for DL to suffer in much the same way this year and UA to rebound, but that will not change history.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 9:13 am

Hey hey..NW kicks..i may be biased but they dont have bad service. They USED to have crappy service (the old motto all the pilots used to say about the flight attendents and service was : Sit down shut up we dont care, Northwest AIrlines will get you there), but theyve really upped things. I like the selections on the meals when i go....even though im non-rev and sometimes dont get a choice. DL isnt too shabby either...i always trash talk them b/c they are a competitor, but its all good..they are a great airline and i would love to fly for them.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Ryefly
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 7:56 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 10:08 am

I understand that many of us airliner fanatics favor our airline of choice without question, although I do have to agree with some of you who though all the major airlines are pretty simular in many ways. So to answer this post in the most honest way I went in search for some web sites that have airline ratings to see what they had to say. My first stop was Ratings.net. Their ratings range from a 1 to 10 and is based on comfort, food, timeliness, service and value. Keep in mind I had nothing to do with these listings so don't blame me if your airline isn't on top! Of the major airlines posted above here are the results in order of higest rated first...
US Airways...6.5
United...6.2
Delta...6.2
Continental...6.2
American...6.2
TWA...6.0
America West...5.8
Northwest...5.6
---------------------------
Other airlines in the US of interest in order of higest rated...
Midwest Express...9.2
Jet Blue...8.8
Southwest...7.0
Frontier...7.0
Alaska...7.0
Air Tran...3.9
----------------------------
As you can see their web site reviews the majors as nearly identical. Plus an average just above average at around 6 which is pretty accurate I think.

To view results yourself here is a link...
http://www.online-consumer-reports.com/airline_ratings.html

My next stop was epionions.com. This creative site reviews airlines on 5 star maximum. And the results are...
Continental...3.5 stars out of 5
American... 3 stars out of 5
US Airways...3 stars out of 5
Delta...3 stars out of 5
United...3 stars out of 5
TWA...3 stars out of 5
Northwest...2.5 stars out of 5
America West...2 stars out of 5
-------------------------------
other US airlines of interest in order of higest rating
Midwest Express...4.5 stars out of 5
Jet Blue...4 stars out of 5
Southwest...4 stars out of 5
Alaska...4 stars out of 5
Frontier...3 stars out of 5
Air Tran... 3 stars out of 5
--------------------------------
Again you can see the airlines are at about the same average rating in just about the same order. Here is the link if you want a closer look...
http://www.epinions.com/trvl-Transportation-Airlines-All?pp=1&pa=1&tk=PR004.1.3

Take these results any way you want to, I just thought I would put them out there as my answer to this post.



 
cba
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 2:02 pm

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 10:21 am

Look, I know UA has had a bad year this year, but I recently flew them IAH-LAX-IAH. When we got our tickets (priceline.com) and I found out that we were flying UA, I was worried, as they have had many problems this year. However, I found the flight and service to be great. The staff was friendly, and they even had the courtesy to give passengers for our flight (as it was leaving the soonest) checkin priority. The plane was delayed for 30 minutes due to congestion at LAX, but that's not their fault. The flight was great, the food was good, and the service was great. The pilots were also very friendly when I asked to check out the cockpit (the first Airbus cockpit I saw, A319).

As I said before, CO is a great airline. Although, I am a little biased towards them b/c they are my hometown airline. However, they are great. On my most recent flight with them, IAH-EWR-IAH, the F/A's were great, and friendly. Our flight was on time, and the pilot was honest. We had to wait around EWR for about 30 minutes before getting to the gate. The F/A's were very friendly, and even served a few people (yes, in coach) drinks if they requested. They also played some stuff on the TVs while we waited on the tarmac.

I have always enjoyed flying AA. I'm used to flying CO 737s, so AA's MD-80s give me a break from the 737. AA's MD-80s are great aircraft to fly. Their service has always been good. Once, my family and I were late for a connection, and we had to sprint across DFW on Christmas Day (not fun), but they held the flight for us, and when we got their, they asked if we were the ___'s (don't wish to reveal my name).

I have flown DL on many times, but on the same route, IAH/HOU-CVG (now operated by Comair). The service was average, not bad, but nothing great.
 
ContinentalEWR
Topic Author
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 10:54 am

Some terrific and informative posts and counter-arguments from Cba, 747, ILUV, and flashmeister
and others whose name's I can't quite scroll back
to.

I was just trying to get a conversation going and
looks like I've succeeded in getting some serious
and interesting, intelligent feedback. Some of the
others, like DLX and TWA are just the usual cry-
baby, "I don't like you" crap that totally undermines
the purpose of this forum, is useless, baseless,
uneducated and largely irrelevant.

ContinentalEWR
 
vincent32
Posts: 336
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2000 7:40 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 11:59 am

In the last 12 months I have had flights on Delta, Northwest, and US Airways. I can honestly say that I have no complaints with any of these airlines.

When I flew DL, I was on a new 737-800 and it was great. The leg room wasn't that bad and the service wasn't lacking in my mind. On a recent Northwest flight I was served a full, normal breakfast in coach class. And on US Airways the service was not bad. The aircrafts were in good shape and the service was good.

I, opposed to the people you overheard speaking, do not perfer to travel with American or United. United is not reliable with on time travel, and I don't like the fact that AA chooses to use mostly MD-80's.

What I'm trying to say is that air travel is all a personal oppinion. What one person is used to for one airline may not be the same for another. Some people are used to some airlines standards while others may just expect more. Sorry for sounding so demeanoring, but when I get on a kick I can't help it.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

vincent32
"If it was cool to be a fool, I'd be the hippest guy around"
 
Philly Phlyer
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun May 23, 1999 12:05 pm

ContinentalEWR

Tue Jan 30, 2001 12:07 pm

ContinentalEWR

Anyone who disagrees with you is not the "usual crybaby" as you stated above. For you to call the post by DLX as useless, baseless, uneducated and largely irrelevant is total BS. [That is a very good discription of the "pro-Continental / I hate US Airways" drivel that you sometimes like to post.] As one who usually reads the posts and doesn't always response, I generally have found that DLX posts make business sense and are balanced. That is not something that I can say about all the posts here.

I don't think that you or many of the posters here fly very much, but take it from someone who is on at least two comercial airline flights every week, there is not much difference in the long-haul domestic service between the major carriers (AA, CO, DL, NW UA and US) or the short-term (above plus Southwest). During 2000, I have flown AA, CO, DL, NW, Southwest, UA and US domestically and BA, CO, UA and US internationally (Europe). I generally select the carrier for a certain route based on who has the most non-stops (more flexibility if I need to change the intinerary) since the service on these carriers is so similar. On the Atlantic routes, the service (business class) on the four carriers I flew this year was all about equal. On long-haul domestic flights (transcon), I generally have found that US and UA are the most consistent for the routes that I fly. On short-haul (under 90 minutes), Southwest beats everyone hands-down (cheap, efficient and fun).

I'm glad that you are a fan of Continental. Since I work only fifteen minutes from EWR, I sometimes fly Continental and they generally do a good job, however, they are not without fault. I have flown Continental since they were the "Proud Bird with the Golden Tail" and were "THE" airline for Denver (before UA beat them out). I've always been fond of them and suffered with them (as well as Eastern) during the Lorenzo years.

The airline has done very well considering where they were five years ago. The employees generally are very happy, as they should be since they were very close to no having jobs in the early 90s. Management of Continental has passed their first test with flying colors (getting the airline back on track after it was raped and left for dead by Frank Lorenzo), but the next set of exams are on the horizon and they will require just as much if not more management skill. The honeymoon of bringing the airline back from the dead and into a current success will begin to be challenged as the employees start asking for pay scales similar to the employees of their competitors. Management will have to tread carefully to keep the employees happy while trying to keep costs down and the airline profitable. This will not be easy and may not be fun to watch.

All I am saying is that you can be a fan of Continental without slandering the competition and still be able to show some respect for those with views you may not like (DLX and TWA). Their views are valid, even if they don't agree with you.

Very truly yours,

"Just Another Crybaby"
 
DeltaSFO
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 12:13 pm

Some of the others, like DLX and TWA are just the usual cry- baby, "I don't like you" crap that totally undermines the purpose of this forum, is useless, baseless, uneducated and largely irrelevant.

You just described yourself.

You have not yet explained why you called Delta "just plane bad."

You probably never will. Based on the maturity level indicated in your posts, I find it hard to believe that you are indeed the age indicated in your profile.

DeltaSFO

It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
notdownnlocked
Posts: 921
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: DL, NW, US, HP Just Plane Bad?

Tue Jan 30, 2001 1:04 pm

In my previous post I mentioned that COEWR should just be ignored as he just wants to cause a fight and then stand back and watch which he does well. He even admits in his next post that he just wanted to get some decent conversation going. In his first post he mentions he overheard a conversation amongst coworkers about how bad the other airlines were. I'm thinking the only conversation he heard were the "I love CO" voices in his head. Philly Phlyer had an excellent post especially when he mentions CO as the "Proud Bird With The Golden Tail." Where was COEWR at this time and where was he during the Lorenzo era following that? I'm guessing he was nowhere close to CO at that time and he only came to CO during the good period when the Kool-Aid was loaded with sugar and safe to drink. I also doubt the age he shows on his profile. I'm pretty certain COEWR was nowhere in sight even when CO couldn't afford the sugar for the Kool-Aid.
 
747-451
Posts: 2327
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 5:50 am

RE: Philly Phlyer

Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:20 pm

Right On!!!!

My experiences are similiar.

I would like to add that I stood by Eastern while Frank Lorenzo raped it for Continental's benefit...but what goes around comes around and FrraNKiE raped Continental.....