Guest

Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 6:32 pm

It has just been reported that Aeroflot has been "given approval" that they are now able to offer smoking on their flights to America, up to 16% of economy and 40% of business class may have smoking seats.

The only catch is, is that Aeroflot have to advise passengers when they book these flights that smoking is allowed.

Aeroflot's argument pretty much went along the lines that the US government has no "juridstiction" over the operations, in this respect, of a Russian carrier.

Good to see that some common sense has won out in the end though.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 6:36 pm

Good job for Aeroflot. Now let's see if more people start flying on them instead of Delta or United...

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 6:44 pm

Well....actually....Aeroflot still holds the record for the most passengers carried in a year, so let's see Delta or United beat that one huh? Big grin
 
johnboy
Posts: 2560
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 7:21 pm

Thanks for the info: note to self -- don't fly Aeroflot!
 
NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 7:26 pm

Well I guess all the Europeans flying to the states will be going via Moscow.
Maybe Aeroflot should get some of those A380's!!  Smokin cool
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 7:52 pm

Hmmm,

I see Scotty's point, but smoking on aircraft was a thing of the past I thought..

I have no problem with airlines designating smoking areas, so long as it doesn't affect other passengers. There is little enough fresh air on flights as it is without the added burden of "smoke".

But, Aeroflot has proved a point. I like that.

Cheers,

mb
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 8:01 pm

Bearing in mind Aeroflot's reputation I very much doubt that the smoke will be coming from cigarettes.....
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 8:13 pm

The majority of SU passengers would in fact be Russian. The majority of their business travellers would be government and business travellers from America (but also from Russia).

Smoking is one of those things which is decreasing in the "west", but in places like China, Russia and Japan, smoking is still very popular.

And by Aeroflot, refusing to acknowledge this US government ban (which they did), they were catering to that proportion of their passenger who fall into the smoking category.

At least they have the decency to advise passengers when they book that the flights are smoking, and that smoking may occur in-flight. This passenger then has the CHOICE to fly with SU or with an airline which is non-smoking.

Ryanb741

Can you please tell me exactly what reputation Aeroflot: Russian Airlines has? Or is it the Aeroflot: Soviet Airlines you are talking of, in which case, has absolutely no bearing in anything Aeroflot does these days.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 8:21 pm

Sorry Brissie_Lions, no offence intended, just my warped British sense of humour.

I would be interested to know however if the modern Aeroflot is better than the old Soviet one. It's just that I recently turned down a cheap deal to fly LHR to BKK via Moscow because I wasn't keen on the idea of using an Ilyushin (don't ask me why, I just get the feeling they aren't as safe). So I paid full whack on BA/Qantas instead.

Let me know about the airline, as you obviously appear to know far more about them than I do.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Sasha
Posts: 856
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:26 am

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 9:42 pm

Ryanb741, Aeroflot (Soviet or nowadays) was NEVER unsafe to be treated with "British humour" like that.

I've flown on Aeroflot Soviet more than on any other airline and always felt that I was as safe on SU as on Western ones. To be completely honest, even if anything went wrong (smoke in cabin, engine problem, emergency landing) I'd still feel reasonably safe in hands of Aeroflot pilots (this never happened before though).

I think the problem with Aeroflot and its image is still coming from West people's heads. You're still under that Cold War influence, believing that anything assosiated with Russia is evil. How narrow minded...
An2/24/28,Yak42,Tu154/134,IL18/62/96,B737/757/767,A310/320/319,F100,BAe146,EMB-145,CRJ,A340-600,B747-400,A-330-300,A-340
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 10:14 pm

Apologies. However, I don't believe Russia is evil or anything, nor do I have a particularly Western bias (this comes from having been born in the UAE and having lived in UAE, Bahrain, Iran, India, Australia, Thailand and UK). Indeed, the way the Americans handled the Cold War was like watching the Muppet Show at times. This also goes for George W Bush's irrational insistence on pressing on with the idiotic missiles-in-space-to-protect-us-from-those-nasty-Arabs-and-Ruskies idea.

I was just going on statistics which point out the fact that historically Aeroflot has had a bad safety record. I appreciate that with the newer aircraft they are acquiring that this may no longer be the case. Time shall tell.....
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Republic
Posts: 541
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:39 am

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 10:17 pm

Hi,

You take your victories where you can. The world is a better place if Russia and US are fighting over smoking on flights as opposed to imperialistic ambitions. Goes to show you how powerful Russia really is.

Rgds,
Joe
 
Sasha
Posts: 856
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:26 am

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:15 pm

Regarding somking, I'm really not impressed with Aeroflot's decision to support it on their flights. It may be a good business move, but in the long run Russia needs to devote more attention to their smoking problem. It's not gonna do any good and worst of all, a few people are on track to give it up in Russia  Sad.

USA won't need missiles to defeat Russia, they may simply keep supplying their trendy cig brands to Russia and kill all population slowly...
An2/24/28,Yak42,Tu154/134,IL18/62/96,B737/757/767,A310/320/319,F100,BAe146,EMB-145,CRJ,A340-600,B747-400,A-330-300,A-340
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:20 pm

And then the Russians could retaliate by destroying American livers with their super-strong Wodka!
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Sasha
Posts: 856
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:26 am

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Wed Feb 07, 2001 11:23 pm

BTW, are those stats showing that Aeroflot planes are less safe than Western airlines really do exist??

I might believe more in stats showing that CIS (ex-USSR) planes have crashed more. BUT, look at operators who done that! It's mainly 3rd world carriers where maintenance is extremely poor. Soviet planes were the only ones they could afford and probably the only ones that could actually serve them in poor conditions, due to being built generally tougher than Western counterparts. If they used more of Western types, maybe they'd be out of the air even faster!

So, those crash horror stories have nothing or little to do with Russian airlines at all.

An2/24/28,Yak42,Tu154/134,IL18/62/96,B737/757/767,A310/320/319,F100,BAe146,EMB-145,CRJ,A340-600,B747-400,A-330-300,A-340
 
Andrei
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2001 9:44 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Thu Feb 08, 2001 12:09 am

Hi!
The Soviet Union there was one airline - AEROFLOT. And this airline had unique advertising - " FLY by PLANES of AEROFLOT !"
So - "FLY by PLANES of AEROFLOT " Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Regards.
Andrei.
Good luck!
 
RIX
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Thu Feb 08, 2001 2:34 am

Ryanb741, you have just apologized twice for one incorrect statement while made another one right away... "George W Bush's irrational insistence" has nothing to do with your attitude to Aeroflot... so be ready to apologize again Big grin

...BTW, I dislike both things, the "missiles-in-space-to-protect-us-from-those-nasty...", and smoking in flight... But Aeroflot now is just great (at least their First and Business international was one of my best flight experience ever).
 
maugie
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2000 9:08 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Thu Feb 08, 2001 3:10 am

I agree with RIX!!!!
Aeroflot is an GREAT airline

 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Thu Feb 08, 2001 6:19 am

Okay RIX, again I apologise. Maybe my statements have been taken rather too much at face value. I possibly was too cavalier in my use of politics, and the whole thing started because I made a tongue in cheek remark about Aeroflot in the first place.

So lets clear things up once and for all.

I was joking about the smoke in the cabin thing, and I have now been made fully aware that I am not the world's greatest comedian.

I also had some reservations about Soviet aircraft - but I accept that this has been due to ignorance.

As for Aeroflot itself - I have heard bad reports, but these relate to flights taken several years ago. I am perfectly happy to accept that the airline is now much improved, and I will take everybody's advice on board and will now not be reticent about using them - especially as a Business Class flight LHR - BKK costs the same as a restricted BA economy ticket.

To the Russian people I may have offended, I apologise unreservedly. Let us take up our glasses, and drink vodka to toast a new age of Anglo-Russian Aviation Comradeship.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Brian Wilkes



I LOVE AEROFLOT I LOVE AEROFLOT I LOVE AEROFLOT

I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
RIX
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: Ryanb741

Thu Feb 08, 2001 6:37 am

I was mostly joking (trying to joke!) too. "Drinking vodka to toast a new age of Anglo-Russian Aviation Comradeship" (or for whatever else) don't forget us here, on the other coast of the Atlantic! Big grin
 
polaris
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RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Thu Feb 08, 2001 7:07 am

I know governments issue service licences to foreign airlines based on adequate insurance coverage and proper maintenance procedures. I didn't realize they had the "right" to dictate on-board service to foreign carriers serving their country. I could see the US government dictating on-board rules for its own registered carriers but didn't think they could do that to foreign registered airlines.
 
JAT
Posts: 1064
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 4:45 am

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Thu Feb 08, 2001 7:17 am

The only way you could really repay us Aeroflot fans is by changing your ticket from BA/Quantas back to Aeroflot. Unless it's too late.....
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 2869
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Thu Feb 08, 2001 7:22 am

My grandparents and parents have flown ORD-SVO and SVO-ORD at leas 15 times, and every single time there are smoking seats.


-TWA902fly
Chicago Illinois
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
An-225
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RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Thu Feb 08, 2001 7:48 am

I was unimpressed by Aeroflot's decision to allow smoking again. This is bad, but I hope that circumstances will force them to reverse their decision.
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
ryanb741
Posts: 5058
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:36 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Thu Feb 08, 2001 8:51 am

Sorry JAT, it is too late, but seeing as I travel LHR - BKK on average at least twice a year I won't hesitate to use Aeroflot if I get a good deal next time.

By the way, in all honesty, would I notice any difference between BA and SU in terms of service etc? (Assuming it was one of the BA flights where the F/A's decided not to be pompous and sanctimonious). This is obviously one of the factors I take into consideration on a 13 hour flight.
I used to think the brain is the most fascinating part of my body. But, hey, who is telling me that?
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Thu Feb 08, 2001 10:15 am

It looks like the real reason that the White House backed down on this issue is because they didn't want to face the embarrasment of facing Russia in an American court, only to be ruled against because they had tried to "extend the writ of their laws to foreign legal subjects beyond US territory".

I also like the Russian proposal if this ban was pushed thru, that all foreign airlines flying into Russia must have Russian speaking flight attendants on board.

It seems Russia is now in the 21st century; playing America at her own games, and beating them Big grin

Just one note...at NO time during this debacle did SU ever abide by the American ban, pending this, now, outcome.

---------

Aeroflot Drags Smoking Waiver from US

Passengers desperate for a cigarette during the 10-hour flight between Moscow and New York are savouring a rare victory over American officials who have been forced to exempt the Russian airline Aeroflot from their comprehensive ban.
Rather than face a challenge by the Russians in the US courts, the US transport department has given Aeroflot a waiver on the White House ban.

The ban, issued in June, prohibits smoking on all international airlines operating to and from the US.

Aeroflot`s current policy is to allow smoking on international flights lasting longer than three hours.

The waiver ends a six-month tussle between the Americans and the Russians.

Moscow warned that they would take court action against the White House, complained to international air regulators, and threatened to make US airlines flying to Russia carry Russian-speaking staff.

Aeroflot, which proclaimed smoking a sovereign and fundamental right under a UN charter, believes the decision provides it with a tobacco-friendly market niche.

Boris Yeliseyev, its senior lawyer, denounced the White House ban as interference in the affairs of other nations and a breach of article two of the UN charter on the sovereignty of UN member states.

The Americans, Aeroflot complained, were seeking to extend the writ of their laws to foreign legal subjects beyond US territory.

Aeroflot threatened to go to court in the US and also took its complaint to the International Air Transport Association, which gave its backing in October.

Aeroflot also warned that it would lobby to have Moscow oblige foreign airlines plying Russian routes to have Russian-speaking staff on board.

``It was legal ping-pong,`` Mr Yeliseyev told the business newspaper Vedomosti.

Ian Traynor /The Guardian/
 
RIX
Posts: 1589
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 4:46 am

RE: Ryanb741

Fri Feb 09, 2001 1:16 am

To compare BA and SU service, etc. - I don't know whether I was too lucky but on all of my flights with BA the F/A's (or do they still call them in Europe "stewardesses"? Honestly, I hate this "F/A"...) were very friendly and helpful. Not much worse on SU flights - if not very good than just good. Service in SU Business was not worse than in BA. Can't compare economy class since my SU economy experience is too "out-of-date"...
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Fri Feb 09, 2001 3:28 am

I've never flow'n Aeroflot (neither one), and i'm not intending to fly them.
If you fly them, don't fly the old Soviet jets (An Aeroflot IL62 disappeared from radar shortly after takeoff from HEL and almost crashed with a Finnair MD-80). I've flown Soviet/Russian aircraft twice, HEL-BUD and BUD-HEL, it was a MALEV TU154B2 and i was scared the entire flight, BTW the BUD-HEL flight was the only flight when i've felt ill, it happened when we were descending to HEL.

Regards
Alexander Holst
Helsinki, Finland
ICQ 94604005
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
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RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Fri Feb 09, 2001 3:43 am

"Aeroflot, which proclaimed smoking a sovereign and fundamental right under a UN charter."

While I agree with the decision, I really don't consider smoking a "fundamental right". Freedom of Speech, yes. Freedom of Religion, yes. Due process, yes.

But smoking? Come on now...

And since all other airlines have either complied with the smoking ban or banned it themselves first, the tagline should read....

US Government 100, Rest of World 1

 Smile
 
kevin
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 5:03 am

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Fri Feb 09, 2001 8:41 am

I see all of you guys are mistaken. You can't remember that in Russia there is no more 1 big airline, but dozens of small and mediums ones and all of them have different names. You have Aeroflot , but also many other names. But when someone is talking about a bad experience in a CERTAIN Russian airline, we still think about Aeroflot. This is very wrong. May be that guy flew with Pulkovo or Kras Air or SIBIR... But we blame Aeroflot which is a good airline. I do agree that some Russian airlines simply suck , but not Aeroflot. so next time someone tells you "Oh This Russian Aeroflot sucks!!!" ask him "Are you sure it was Aeroflot?"

As for smoking I already posted it once, but since you still discuss it I'm going to say it again:
For 90% of Russian people boarding an aircraft (especially when they fly overseas) is something unusual, wonderful and long awaited. They expect comfort and something different. Many Russians smoke. And when you tell them while they fly that they can't smoke it will really heart them and they won't be satisfied. So Aeroflot did a good job.
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Fri Feb 09, 2001 10:56 am

Polaris

The American government, nor any government, does not have the right to extend their laws to another country, in aviation, or any other area. If they were able to it would impede upon the sovereignty of that country.

However, the FAA and the White House has in the past had a history of implementing policies which would favour American airlines....such as their country safety rating; whereby every country in the Caribbean was declared to have unsafe practices, and their aircraft were banned from flying to America, however, the FAA allowed airlines such as Alaska Airlines to continue flying.

Travellin' Man

What Aeroflot is arguing about smoking being a right under the UN Charter is in relation to Russia having the right to set their own laws for their own carriers. The attempt by the White House to extend their laws to a company which is not under their national flag is a violation of the UN Charter.

Yes, I do know that most other airlines have complied with the bans; but now that Aeroflot has won this case (like an out of court settlement), how many of the other airlines who currently fly into America will also fight the White House on this? Personally, I don't think there will be many, but there will be some. Not because they can't be bothered fighting, or are willing to accept American juridstiction over their operations, but because their customers want smoke-free flights.

Aeroflot was fighting for the right to offer services which their customers want, within the confines of Russian law, not America.

Alle

If you know the full story of the SU HEL incident, you will notice that the aircraft showed up on Tampere radar screens, but not on Helsinki's.

I take it Helsinki has recently had a new ATC system installed; what they forgot is that there are aircraft which are not Boeing and Airbus, and went ahead and installed the newest in technology, without considering encompassing the old technology.
 
WiLdmanVzla
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 12:17 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Fri Feb 09, 2001 11:04 am

To all yankees...

Where can I take Aeroflot?????????????????????????!!!!!!
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Fri Feb 09, 2001 11:18 am

So does this mean that other carriers like JAL, ANA, Lufthansa, etc which carry a large number of passengers who smoke will also enjoy the same special status Aeroflot has and allow smoking? I sure hope not. Although, I have no problems with people smoking in bars, restaurants (even in my parts of my home), being assailed by cigarette smoke in a cramped space 31" x 17" x 3 ft per seated passenger is awful.

I guess this is one more reason to avoid Aeroflot. Not that it was ever on the menu of airlines I want to fly.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1705
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

So If We Want To Shoot Up Heroin...

Fri Feb 09, 2001 1:02 pm

...we should fly Aeroflot. I mean, if they're going to pander to abusers of one dangerous substance, why not? I guess they will assert the US would not have jurisdiction to enforce its drug laws on Russian flights.
 
Guest

RE: Aeroflot 1 US Government

Fri Feb 09, 2001 2:37 pm

Toxtethogrady

You know that is a bullshit analogy, so why even bring it up?

NO airline in this world has ever, or will ever, allow heroin to be used on flights.

Let's use a more appropriate analogy shall we?

Analogy 1

Royal Brunei announced that they will be starting non-stop flights from Bandar Seri Begawan to Los Angeles, with 3 daily services utilising their brand new A380s. The two countries have open-sky agreements in place, but three days before Royal Brunei is due to start services, the White House presents the airline with a condition which will affect their operations. That condition being:

That alcohol must be sold on board, and it must be served upon request by the passenger.

Does the White House have any right to tell Royal Brunei which level of service they will offer on board? Just because a lot of Americans drink alcohol doesn't mean that just because an American may fly on a particular airline, that that airline has to cater to that American's demands.

It is against Islamic law for alcohol to be consumed, and for the White House to even suggest a demand that alcohol be served on board, is infringing upon Negara Brunei Darussalam's sovereignty and right to make laws for their companies. (By Islamic law I am coming at that from a cultural side).

Analogy 2

A new airline, which is calling itself QANTAS, has announced that they will start flying to this country which is called America. Flights will be flown from Sydney - Los Angeles two times daily using the airlines brand new Ilyushin Il-96Ms. The flights won't be flown non-stop, as there will be a brief stop in Rarotonga (Cook Islands).

The services start, and their load factors are high. Customers are happy with the service which is being offered. The American passengers are especially happy, because QANTAS will serve alcohol to those passenger who are clearer under the age of 21 but over the age of 18. Afterall, Australian law (under which QANTAS operates) allows a person to legally drink alcohol after the age of 18.

Some politician in Washington D.C. who is no longer seeing mistress, and is a bit bored decides he is going to go on a moral crusade. His target is going to be QANTAS.

Talks are held in secret with the White House, and the decision is made (without consultation with the airlines) that airlines which fly to the US are not to offer alcohol to those passenger under the age of 21, even if it is legal everywhere else in the world for that airline to do so (although the passenger still has to be 18).

QANTAS is pissed off at this decision, because they understand that the US has no right to tell them that they have to operate under US law...not Australian law.

What especially pisses QANTAS off, is that the Americans are demanding that this law is not just for Australia-America flights, but also for sectors which are part of a company's flights to America. Aloe Kapisi, a 19 year old Cook Islander who is return home to Rarotonga boards the QANTAS flight in Sydney. He has had a long day, and once they are airborne, he asks the flight attendant for a tinny of Victoria Bitter. The flight attendant asks this passenger for his ID. He hands it over, and it clearly shows that he is only 19. The drink he orders is refused, and is offered a coke instead. He is then told that even though the flight he is taking is as far as Rarotonga, the fact that the flight continues to America means that the airline doesn't operate under Australian law but American laws. Aloe says "Lahor" and proceeds to take his own bottle of Jack Daniels out of his bag. The flight attendant gives him a smile and a wink. He get's half way thru one glass, when a couple of US FBI agents who are on board (they were in Sydney to investigate an increase of protests outside the US consulate there....in this latest case, the protests took the form of a large group of 18-20 year olds throwing beer bottles and tinnies at the consulate building) witnessed Aloe drinking this alcohol. The airline allowed this to happen. Aloe was arrested with "underage" drinking, and QANTAS was indicted for allowing this to happen..........................

The White House is impeding upon Australian laws which allow drinking at the age of 18, and is also dictating to QANTAS what level of service they will offer.

-------

But Toxtethogrady, if it were legal in Russia for heroin to be used freely, and Aeroflot decided that within the confines of that Russian law, that heroin injecting would be allowed on their flights, the US laws would have no bearing upon their right to do so.

Like I said, the analogy you used is a bullshit one, because I am sure that there are INTERNATIONAL laws thru ICAO which prohibit the use of drugs on board aircraft, and those laws would be recognised by all member states.

But for one moment, let's say that there is no law, and that the airline can offer what other services they want, in line with their mother country's laws......if Aeroflot was to offer heroin flights, then the customer has a CHOICE to fly that airline, or fly with Delta Air Lines. BTW, Delta Air Lines is offering flights in which passengers are allowed to carry hand-guns and shoot passengers who look at them funny (in line with American laws).

 Insane