Topic Author
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Legend Officially Gone

Thu Feb 08, 2001 5:46 am

It's True, Officially. Legend today has filed for chapter seven bankruptcy.

They're gone. Those three planes they lost yesterday was a strong hint.

I can't believe it. Thankfully I got to fly them once. Now I know how I SHOULD be treated. I got a glimpse into the past, into the golden age of airlines.

To all those who said that they wouldn't make it, you've won. I argued, hoped, and pleaded that they would, but they haven't.

We can point the finger to many. First and foremost, American Airlines/ AMRcorp. Second, all these bozos who promised millions, and delivered none. The first one caused them to cease operations on December 2. The second one happened just a week ago or so, and caused the total collapse of the company.

They truly were the best airline in the nation, I truly believe that. If you haven't flown them, don't argue.

It will truly hurt to watch them be dismembered, disembowled, and destroyed. Those magnificently lavish planes; that great executive terminal. The higher standards of safety and customer service.

It's really a shame that they didn't make it.

Rest in Peace, ye wings of pride.

The question is... who will the planes go to? Nobody except nobody wants a DC-9-32 (except maybe Northwest). And not even Northwest would want one with 56 FIRST CLASS LEATHER SEATS!!!!

I predict they will be parked and forgotten. How tragic is that.

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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Thu Feb 08, 2001 5:48 am

I read today that the planes have already been moved to the Arizona desert.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Thu Feb 08, 2001 11:12 am

Well, sAAy byebye to those Fokkers with less seAAts.
My views as expressed above are my views alone and do not constitute the views of my employer.
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Thu Feb 08, 2001 11:53 am

What "rules" did Legend break that AA didn't?
Topic Author
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Blink THIS.

Thu Feb 08, 2001 12:18 pm

Allright, we both live in the Metro area, and are fellow aviation enthusiats. We were both even at the retirement 'party' of the AA DC-10-30 N143AA. I have never had a problem with you, and generally agree with what you say.


Legend didn't break the rules- and that has been agreed with by a court of law. That's how they got to start flying in the first place. AND AA's policies in this matter are THOROUGHLY anti- competitive, they're just... more like.... exterminative. Legend provided a better product, and therefore had every right to exist. That's the whole point behind the free enterprise system. Unfortunately, AA didn't want to lose their business. Which is understandable.

Nothing personal, I just want to make my disagreement clear. By the way, next time you take too much caffeine, stay away from my family, dude.  Smile

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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Thu Feb 08, 2001 12:28 pm

To AA737-823

I enjoyed reading your comments about Legend.

I don't know much about them, except they did get

some good press coverage in Canada when they

initially took to the skies...

Regarding your quetion about the dc9-32's. My guess

is they'll be scrapped, or possibly after removal of the

leather seating to more standard fare, they then may go

MAYBE to Cebu-Pacific Air. They have some of

the older Air Canada DC9-32'S

Just a guess. Have a good day......Steve
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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Thu Feb 08, 2001 12:41 pm

Again, Blink has shown that he has never had to meet a budget...

...never spent his own money...

...never been stranded a long way from home because AA canceled a flight, and had to pull out the plastic to buy $1,200.00 worth of walk-up fare to get a family of three home...

...never been in, or employed by, a business that failed, leaving hundreds of people out of work.

Legend was not a game, not a virtual airline. It was, at its core, several hundred people who poured their hearts and souls into trying to provide a good product, and (from my experience in flying both), gave a product which AA couldn't touch.

Blink, when you have to spend your own money, you'll understand why a lot of us in North Texas aren't so fond of the airline that's "based here, best here."

If AA were interested in just competing, they would not be spending so much time, money and effort in supporting an illogical and wasteful legislative limitation on use of DAL.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...

RE: Legend Officially Gone

Thu Feb 08, 2001 1:16 pm

If we have any lawyers out there... considering AA does cancel their f100 premium service out of DAL, couldn't this spring a lawsuit for, what is obvious to all of us, anti-competitive action? I'm not expert on these special Texas aviation laws, but maybe someone could clarify?
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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Thu Feb 08, 2001 1:16 pm

I'm sorry to see Legend go. I was really rooting for them, too. But since they are gone, that brings up another question. What will become of their terminal? I know that currently Delta/ASA operates 6 daily nonstops to ATL out of one gate, but that still leaves 5 gates up for grabs.

There was an article which speculated about this 6 weeks ago in the Dallas Business Journal:

Legend terminal could be next battleground at Love
$21 million facility is prize for survivors if start-up fails to secure financing


I'm positive Southwest would not want those gates. For one thing, Southwest already has 14 gates in the main terminal and wouldn't want to split up their operations. I also think the terminal is a little too luxurious for the type of no-frills product Southwest is offering.

I also don't envision Continental Express moving over to Legend's terminal as they've already spent a lot of money renovating Gates 41 and 42 in the main terminal. I seem to remember when Continental Express got a building permit for their renovations, the area was approved for 3 jetways, but COEX only installed 2. When AA was told they couldn't operate out of the East Concourse, which they had already renovated, they simply moved one of their jetways over to COEX's area and they have basically shared the space with COEX, operating their current schedule out of that one jetway, sometimes using a spare COEX jetway at times when it wasn't being used by COEX.

AA could vacate that space and move over to Legend's terminal and take the other 5 gates. They'd most likely take their jetway with them, but that would still leave enough space for COEX to add another jetway if they decided to increase their service out of Love Field.

Also, if AA decides to ditch the Fokkers and just go with regional jets, Legend's terminal could probably be reconfigured to have more gates than the 6 it already has now. I know that DAL-LGA routes were pretty popular for both AA and Legend, but I don't think a businessman would want to fly in a regional jet for 3 hours to get there, so they may keep the Fokkers for that and some of the longer routes they may or may not have planned (if they stay at DAL at all). I could see AA switching to regional jets for the ORD service, however.

BTW, could a regional jet even make it non-stop DAL-LGA? Anyway, what are your thoughts? Will AA stay at Love Field and offer limited non-stop service or do you think they will abandon DAL altogether and go back to DFW? Keep in mnd that in past articles, AA always maintained that they started the service because some of their best customers lived or worked a lot closer to Love Field. Now that Legend is no longer a threat, I wonder if AA will still offer their "best customers" to convenience of Love Field departures.


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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Thu Feb 08, 2001 1:56 pm

Blink182- was that necessary? I would be interested in learning how it helped the rest of us become more informed about aviation, other than you teaching us about your pre-conceived notions.

RE: Legend Officially Gone

Fri Feb 09, 2001 3:45 am

Legend has not officially filed for Chapter 7, only discussed the option, so don't put on the party hats yet, Blink. The funding search continues (although time is short), and please note that this post is evidence there are still a few people here (without pay) doing whatever they can to get Legend back up and running.

It has been tremendously heartbreaking to see our birds take off from Love Field, knowing they're going away to sit somewhere out in the Arizona desert. More than 400 people put their heart and soul into this airline, and I don't think we would be that upset or surprised if our planes were flying empty prior to our shutdown. It was quite the opposite, which makes this all so frustrating.

Customers loved the product, and we carved out a nice little niche. It's too bad we had to waste $20 million before starting our first flight just fighting for our right to fly from Love Field and then dealing with the subsequent delays because of this.

Thanks to all who have supported us over the years, and hopefully there'll be light at the end of this very long tunnel.
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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Fri Feb 09, 2001 4:05 am

Contrary to what Blink182 thinks,
I was hoping that Legend was gonna make it, and in my personal view I precived AA to be the bad guy in this one, now dont get me wrong I still love AA, but I think that they could be somewhat fair to a small airline with 3 aircraft.
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear"
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Fri Feb 09, 2001 4:49 am


Hope still exists; this "Founder's Society" member promises: if you get back in the air, I'll buy tix the first day they're available for sale.

New York in the spring can be awful nice.

God go with you!
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...

RE: Legend Officially Gone

Fri Feb 09, 2001 4:55 am

In answer to SJC>SFO's question about the legal ramifications of all of this, let me try to boil it down. However, be aware that I do general litigation and not antitrust, so I will have to remember back to my law school days when my hair wasn't gray and I didn't have a wife to complain about my secret infatuation with flight attendants.

In essence, Legend's claim would be an unlawful attempt to monopolize the market in violation of Section 2 of the Sherman Act. It may show an unlawful attempt to monopolize through the infamous "predatory pricing" charge. To show predatory pricing, Legend must show that AA (1) priced below its marginal costs; (2) with the intent to monopolize the relevant market.

As to the first element, Legend must show that AA priced below its average marginal cost. In the aviation industry, such costs can be very low. For instance, if AA flies 2000 seats per day from DFW to ORD, average marginal cost would the the cost of flying the 2001st seat. This would be a very low number when flying between two established stations on aircraft that AA already owns. In essence, it would be the cost of fuel and a coke. In the present situation, however, this could be much higher. AA's marginal cost would be the cost of flying the first seat from DAL-LGA. This would include the costs of starting the station (e.g., gate lease, jetway construction, etc.) and the costs of refurbishing the aircraft. Based on this, it is very possible that AA priced below its average variable cost.

The second element, however, is where the difficulty lies. Legend must show that AA took this action with the intent to monopolize the market. AA will contend that the relevant market is DAL, not the combined DAL/DFW market. On this point, they have some support. I mean, the entire point of Legend's business plan was the premise that DAL was a market sufficiently distinct from DFW to support their flights. Moreover, I defy anyone to show me someone from Weatherford who will drive to DAL to take an AA flight to LGA. If AA pulls out of DAL entirely, then, under this argument, it does not monopolize the market. (After all, it is very difficult to monopolize a market in which you do not participate.) Accordingly, AA may argue that its actions were not an attempt to monopolize the market.

In response, Legend may contend that running it out of business, AA destroyed the market for long-haul flights out of DAL. Once it did that, the DAL and DFW markets again became the same market--and one in which AA does maintain a monopoly. Therefore, by destroying one market, AA succeeded in monopolizing the combined market.

That is a good argument. I had not thought about it before. If anybody knows T. Allan McArtor, have him give me a call--I'll file his lawsuit.  Smokin cool
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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Fri Feb 09, 2001 7:09 am


Blink182: We should have a party!

R.I.P. Legend.

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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Fri Feb 09, 2001 7:26 am


If your parents ever find out how lame you really are, they will slip poison in your Cap'n Crunch cereal.

Or perhaps they will move while you are at school and neglect to leave a forwarding address. Oh, wait a minute, they already tried that, didn't they?

As far as Legend is concerned...it was an unfortunate situation where an aviation bureaucrat (from the FAA) thought he knew how to run an airline. A bad business plan. Far too many folks in government are inept at meeting payrolls and budgets (Trust me on that).

I hate it for the employees. I hate to see any thorn in AA's side go away. Perhaps someday God in his infinite wisdom will smite those who persist in binding us to the Wright Amendment.

I'd like to be at Southwest's Gate 6 when the Wright Amendment does go away. I would be leading the chorus of "Free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty we are free at last."

Best Regards,

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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Fri Feb 09, 2001 11:17 am


At least Blink has, as an excuse for acting like an adolescent, that he is one.

What's your excuse?
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Tue Feb 20, 2001 1:53 am

Anyone know where the aircraft are? Were they sold or just in storage?

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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Tue Feb 20, 2001 2:06 am

I flew with AA from ORD-DAL on Jan 4th. It was 1 leg out of a total of four in my itenerary. I paid coach fare. Got 1st class service on that 1 flight. I wonder what AA was charging when Legend was operating?

Anyway, this flight was less than half full. I could see DAL-ORD switching to ERJs as mentioned above.

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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Tue Feb 20, 2001 2:24 am

Blimey, what did Blink say that got people so riled up? I'd love to know.

IMHO, Legend was never going to work. There are loads of markets that don't have the world's second most predatory airline HQ'd 30 miles away, or require the airline to build it's own terminal, or limit the number of seats. What kind of business plan is that? Combined with the one idea since deregulation that has been consistently proven to be box-office death: the premium airline. Air One, Regency, MGM Grand Air, all the rest. Or to put it another way: it wasn't enough to try the premium service airline, but they HAD to do it on AA's home turf from an airport without a terminal and with a restriction on the number of seats they could carry. I'm gutted for the hardworking employees who willed Legend to prosper, but it was never going to work in a million years. The only airline business plan I could think of that was worse was The Lord's Airline. Don't ask.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
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Tue Feb 20, 2001 2:54 am

Blink's (now deleted) post was a gleeful celebration of Legend's celebration.

The distinguishing characteristics of Legend vs. other "premium" carriers which came and went before are (1) service at the highly-desirable DAL; and (2) before their sudden shutdown (apparently from withdrawal of a previous financing commitment), they had steadily-growing passenger loads, with very encouraging yields on LGA and IAD, so-so on LAX and utterly useless numbers on LAS.

Though it looks more and more as if we'll never know, they were good (from personal experience) and with adequate capitalization, might have had a shot.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
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RE: Cedarjet

Tue Feb 20, 2001 3:37 am

Cedarjet is the only one who has it right here. As I predicted a year ago on AOL and here, Legend was doomed to failure from the start just like every other all-Premium service airline. The problem wasn't AA (they responded predictably, something that should also have been accounted for in their business plan); it was an unworkable business plan.

I'm sorry to see them go; I like new airlines. But it was never meant to be. Take away the Wright amendment and you'll see SW give AA a run for it's money.

Dave in Berlin
Too many types flown to list
Early Air
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RE: Legend Officially Gone

Tue Feb 20, 2001 3:43 am

I knew all along that Legend Airways was not going to make it. Their plan was bad. However, I can see Jet Blue makeing it!

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