tupolev154b2
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2000 9:01 am

757 And 767 Engines

Wed Feb 21, 2001 4:35 am

Why did Pratt and Whitney fail to pick up much market share for the 757 while Rolls-Royce for the 767? Did the politics of buying American engines result in the highest market of PW-powered 757's being in the U.S.?

Tupolev154B2
 
Guest

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Wed Feb 21, 2001 6:25 am

Politics had nothing to do with anyting here. Actually, the US 757 engine market is really split up with CO, AA (2end largest 75 operator), and US using the RB211. Others including National, North American, Eastern, which is not with us anymore, and ATA. Actually, the P+W2000 had developmental problems, thats why we see 757 operator like Condor, UPS, and ATA switching to RB211 powered 757s. P+W users include UA, DL (Largest 757 operator) and UPS (Now ordering RBs). There are actually few operators of P+W 757s in the US, you just see the 2000 popular in the US because these carriers happen to operate large numbers of them.
As for the RB on the 767, RR entered the game late, finally hanging RBs under 763 wings with, who else, BA. The only other original RB 763 operator is China Yunnan Airlines, which operates 3 examples. Currently, because of BAs efforts to lessen its fleet, over the fact of declining passanger numbers, BA is leasing RB211 powered 763s to QF (Quite strange seeing QF uses GEs on its 763s). Now, the main reason why the Rb211 is so unpopular with 767 operators, is the fact that the engine is substancially heavyer than its competitors, and because of this, cracks were found on the pylons on BA 763s. Modifications have been made to fix this.
Hope it helps.
Tom
 
tupolev154b2
Posts: 1269
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2000 9:01 am

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Wed Feb 21, 2001 8:21 am

Thanks. What other PW-powered 757 operators are there around the world besides Ethiopian and Aeromexico? How many years did UPS and ATA have experience with PW's before they ordered RR's? From the archives here I never noticed any PW ATA 757's. Is the RB211-524 engine on the 767 the same exact engine as the one on the 747-400 or is it a smaller derivative? I know that these are a lot of questions, but I hope someone can help. Thanks.

Tupolev154B2
 
Guest

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Wed Feb 21, 2001 8:37 am

Other P+W 757 Operators: NW, TWA, LAPA, Finnair, Shanghai Airlines, FAT (Far Eastern Air Transport (Taiwan), RAM. Did I forget any? UPS received thier first 757PF in 1987, and sometime in the mid 1990s, they switched all further orders to the RB211. The P+W 757PF will stay in the fleet though. ATA leased thier first 757s in the early 1990s, and these were all returned sometime after 1995 for RB 757s.
The 744 can use RB.211-524Gs(58,000lb), -524Hs(also 58,000lb), or -524G/HTs(59-60,000lb) which use the Trent core. The 763 uses the RB.211-524Gs (60,000lb).
-Tom
 
woodsboy
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 5:59 am

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Wed Feb 21, 2001 8:48 am

The 747-400 and 767 have the same GE CF6, PW 4000 series and RB211 engines, roughly the same power rating although there are so many variations that you cant say "exactly the same". I do know that the GE CF6 50 series are the same on the 767, 747-400 and MD11.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5158
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Wed Feb 21, 2001 8:49 am

According to Bill Harms's Commercial Jet Aircraft Census, the complete list is Shanghai Airlines, FAT, Royal Air Maroc, Condor (about 1/2, the older ones), Ethiopian, US Air Force VC32As (VIP planes), Delta, NW, United, UPS (part), Finnair, Dutchbird, Aeromexico and Mexicana.

As to the ATA planes, ATA initially leased several 757s with Pratt engines, which they unloaded. I think that this happened when they pulled back on scheduled service during a recession, but I could be wrong about that. In any event, Delta picked up several, and still flies 750AT, 751AT, 752AT and 757AT, still with the ATA tail numbers. The other ATA birds (764AT, 755AT and 756AT are all flown by Mexicana, with new tail numbers).

Bill Harms' site is at: http://www.bird.ch/bharms/asr_sh00.htm
It's a fun place to look around, and is updated monthly.

--Bill
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5158
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Wed Feb 21, 2001 8:51 am

Oh, and of course I forgot TWA, which is an all-Pratt shop.

--Bill
 
Guest

Woodsboy

Wed Feb 21, 2001 8:59 am

You meant to say that the CF6-80 power the 767, 744, MD-11,A300-600, A310, A330, and some later versions of the 743. The -50 powered the early A300Bs, 741s, 742, most 743s, and DC-10s.
-Tom
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8005
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Wed Feb 21, 2001 9:16 am

Actually, GE almost had a 757 engine: they had proposed the CF6-32 rated at 38,000 lb. thrust. Unfortunately, no airlines wanted the engine, so the project was dropped.

The CF6-80 series is actually pretty popular, found on quite a lot of widebody jets built since the early 1980's.

You know, I'm surprised that GE didn't do a derated version of the GE90 engine rated at 73K-74K thrust. That could have been a candidate engine for the proposed 747-500/600 series and also now the A380.
 
gt1
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:30 am

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Wed Feb 21, 2001 11:45 am

If I recall my facts correctly, the PW2000 had better fuel efficiency than the RB211-535C, so that influenced many US operators. However, with the introduction of the -535E4, RR regained an edge in thrust and fuel efficiency. Most importantly, RR probably has a significant advantage in reliability, as evidenced by the fact that some carriers have switched to the RB211, (as mentioned above) while others wish they had the RR instead of the PW.
As for the 767 and the RB211-524, (which other than thrust rating and "engine build up" should be identical to the 747-400 installation) I believe RR just wasn't as aggressive then, as they are today, about getting an engine on every airplane, so they waited for someone to ask for it (BA). As for pylon cracks with the RB211, that is a problem on the 767 regardless of engine type.

Regards all, I hope my first post is acceptable.
 
Guest

Gt1

Wed Feb 21, 2001 11:53 am

First time I have heard of engine cracks on pilons other than RB.211 powered 76s. All I know that the RB had the biggest problem. But again, as I said, these problems have been fixed with proper modifications.
-Tom
 
gt1
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:30 am

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Wed Feb 21, 2001 12:09 pm

DL is in the middle of a major pylon modification program that has begun with 762/CF6-80A2, but will extend to all or most variants as the years/hours/cycles pile up.

Regards
 
Guest

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Wed Feb 21, 2001 12:23 pm

Ok, thanks. Never knew.
-Tom
 
757man
Posts: 355
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:59 am

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Thu Feb 22, 2001 3:35 am

Getting back onto the subject of P&W engines on the 757..Uzbekistan have a small fleet powered by the 2000 if that is of any help.

 
Guest

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Thu Feb 22, 2001 6:46 am

The Uzbekistan 757 I believe is RR powered, and it flys for the Government.
-Tom
 
FLY DC JETS
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 1:13 pm

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Thu Feb 22, 2001 6:59 am


--28338 731 B757-23P PW2037 10/19/96 UZBEKISTAN AIRWAYS UK-75700 [VIP CONFIG - OPF GVMT]
--30060 875 B757-23P PW2037 09/03/99 UZBEKISTAN AIRWAYS (UZBEC FIN) VP-BUB UK-75701
--30061 886 B757-23P PW2037 12/09/99 UZBEKISTAN AIRWAYS (UZBEC FIN) VP-BUD N1787B, N1020L, N6066Z


As you can see all are PW powered.
 
servisair
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:44 am

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:07 am


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Colin K. Work



I have to admit, I also though that the Uzbekistan airways 757's were RB powered. Oh well.
30 Yeras in the Biz...
 
FLY DC JETS
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 1:13 pm

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:12 am

If you look at the big version of the photo you can see the PW eagle on the Nacelle.
 
Guest

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:17 am

Ah yes! Kazakstan Airlines is the one with the RB powered VIP 757.
-Tom
 
enginesrus
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 12:40 am

RE: 757 And 767 Engines

Fri Feb 23, 2001 12:32 am

Gt1 - RR does not have either a thrust or fuel efficiency advantage on the 757 (in fact, the reverse is true). It did have a significant reliability advantage in past years but that advantage has gone away with time...
 
Guest

EnginesRUs

Fri Feb 23, 2001 12:37 am

Could you please explain why the Reliability advantage has gone away?
Thanks, Tom
 
FLY DC JETS
Posts: 191
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 1:13 pm

RE: EnginesRUs

Fri Feb 23, 2001 1:18 am

PW has SLOWLY (too slowly-that's why they have no customers) added retrofits to the PW2000 to enhance it's durability. Many of the retrofits were applied from their work to adapt the engine for the Air Force. The PW2000 is still more efficient than the RR by about 1-3%. PW made big garantees with this engine back in the late 70s/ early '80s. At the time they garanteed 7% better fuel performance. However, when it was all said and done, they did not achieve as great an advantage as they had hoped. The problem with the engine was durability/reliability. An airline does not want an engine that is going to require heavy amounts of maintenance.
PW was extremely slow to fix the problems with this engine, however current data shows that the two engines are now roughly equal in reliability.

The success of the RB211-535 was and still is a critical step for RR. It represented the first time an RR engine was able to have success over an American counterpart.

AA infact placed a large order for PW2000s somewhere around 1980 without yet ordering the 757s. However, the order was later cancelled and when AA finally became so equipped with 757s, they were RR powered.