nwa747-400
Posts: 1325
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sat Feb 24, 2001 8:20 am

According to a press conference over the web,

Northwest will taking delivery of "one new airplane every two weeks from now until at least 2006."

It is so awesome to see new planes coming into the fleet.

I think that once the mecachnics are settled on the DC9 replacement will be announced not to much later.

Anyway, I just thought that was a neat little factoid.
 
Guest

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sat Feb 24, 2001 8:39 am

Wow. That's great. Does anyone know any other delivery rates. For example, I know TWA's was one every 10 days in 2000.

Continental and Delta ...anyone know?
 
DatamanA340
Posts: 535
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 7:02 pm

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sat Feb 24, 2001 6:45 pm

LOL! at least 315 new planes! That'll be more than 40% of entire Airbus productivity.
 
imkeww
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:48 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 2:23 am

Assuming this rate started in the beginning of 2001, that would mean approximately 26 new airplanes a year (52 weeks in a year/2). Over the period of 5 years from 2001 to 2006, that equates to about 130 airplanes.

Over this relatively lengthy period, that does not equate to much. For an airline the size of NW, with 400+ so planes it its fleet, this is not an impressive new aircraft delivery rate at all.

In fact, I would not be surprised to see jetblue end up with more than 130 planes by 2006, considering by the end of 2002 they will have around 50 A320s!

This is just another misleading use of "How to Lie With Statistics". Invariably, airlines like NW toot their own horns by impressing the average mind with numbers.

NWA747-400: Since you have a particular knack for bashing United, ["United will never do anything to improve service"], I assume you'll be shocked by that statement that, out of the top 7 airlines, United has the 3rd youngest fleet after CO and TW.

-imk
 
Tg 747-300
Posts: 1282
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 1999 6:08 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:42 am

Nwa 747-400: Northwests fleet program says that the airline will get one more Dc9, and that there are no retire plans for the a/c, so by 2006 the Dc9 fleet will be bigger than today HOW GREAT!!!!!!!

Sadly the 727 will be retired for more A320 over the next 1/2 years.

tg 747-300
intentionally left blank
 
KLM747
Posts: 622
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RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:46 am

Wow, that's alot of planes in a short period of time!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

KLM747 Big grin
 
Tg 747-300
Posts: 1282
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RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:49 am

Sorry: I remembered wrong but the DC9 fllet will onle decraese from 172 to 160/162 a/c over a four year period, so the will still e with us for a long time

tg 747-300
intentionally left blank
 
nwa747-400
Posts: 1325
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RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:20 am

So the DC9s numbers are going down slowly, until 2006 and then they will go FAST!!! maybe sooner if the new CEO wants too.

 
nwa747-400
Posts: 1325
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:15 am

Northwest's fleet is expanding going from 469 to 565 jet aircraft (including the jet regionals).

The average fleet age without the DC9s included is only 11 years according NW officials. With the DC9s it is probaly more like 18.

I know United has a young fleet, so no I wasn't surprised.

By 2005 or so younger aircraft will make up alot of the fleet.

Younger planes:
747-400s - 16
A330-300s- 14
757-200/-300s- 73
A319/A320s- 156
Avro RJ85s - 36
CRJs- 54

Older planes:
DC9s - 162
DC10s - 21
747-200s - 21 (33 including freighters)

Right now:
older planes are 58% of the fleet
Newer planes are 42% of the fleet

By 2004:
Older planes will be 215 (38% of the fleet)
Newer planes will be 350 (62% of the fleet)

By 2006:

More new airplanes are still being delivered.And a DC9/747-200 replacement. so the NW will be getting younger every year.

Having said that, I think it also to remember that fleet age is not the be all and end all of the airline. An airline such as NW has some of the best maintainence in the world and can run an airline with 18 year average better than most airlines with much younger fleets.
 
imkeww
Posts: 676
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:48 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:45 am

You cannot throw in NWs 80 regional jet aircraft by 2005 into the mix. This is another 'statisticatory' smokescreen tactic, as these aircraft are operated by the regional subsidiaries and should not be counted.

No one else counts regional jet aircraft as part of mainline -- CO, DL, AA for instance don't count COEx, Comair/Asa, or AE jet fleets, respectively, as part of fleet age.

Having said THAT (according to your numbers), by 2004:

56% (270/485) a/c should be of the 'newer' and 'modern' variety.

44% should be of the 'dinosaur' jalopy variety.

These are more realistic representations.

Don't use fuzzy statistics to cloud the truth!

I do, however, agree that NW has top-notch maintenance to be able to keep these old birds in good condition. This may be why the mechanics are so mad-- they perhaps work the hardest of all, and their pay does not currently reflect this.

-imk

 
nwa747-400
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Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 7:18 am

Seeings how NW owns the ARJs I think you can count them. They buy them and lease them back to Mesaba.
So you can count them. I am just going off what i saw the NW website.
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 7:35 am

NWA 747-400 is correct. NW purchases the aircraft and leases them to Mesaba or Express I. In the eyes of the DOT, NTSB, and FAA, the aircraft are Northwest Airlines planes dba Mesaba/Express I dba Northwest Airlink/Jet Airlink. The new CRJ200s for Express I are ordered by Northwest Airlines, and if you look at the order book for Bombardier, it will say Northwest Airlines as the purchaser, not Express Airlines I.

Therefore, the fleet age should reflect the additions of these new aircraft, since they are owned by Northwest but operated under the Northwest Airlink banner. For Continental, cases can be made for the fact that our average fleet age should include the ERJ's, and there are cases that can be made that we shouldn't. Since COEX is 100% owned by Continental Airlines Inc., then maybe we should include them in the average. But since the order was financed and placed by Continental Express, maybe they shouldn't. But for collections of regional carriers, like Delta's Connection, TWA's TWE, and UA's Express, the numbers of the regional fleet should not be counted because the airlines are separate entities and are not completely owned by the carrier it operates under.

Basically, it all depends on the situation.
 
USAirways737
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Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:20 am

Imkeww

Sun Feb 25, 2001 7:48 am

"44% should be of the 'dinosaur' jalopy variety."

Obviously you haven't been on a NW DC-9 lately. They are in great shape. They have a 717 type interior and have been extensively refurbished. They may be old, but they are deffinately not jalopies.
 
nwa747-400
Posts: 1325
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:08 am

Wow....USAirways737 pretty soon you are going to change your name to "NorthwestDC9"!!!!! j/k
 
imkeww
Posts: 676
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:48 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:09 am

77gk:

Notice how I made a point of only including Comair/ASA DLConnection carriers, which ARE 100% owned by Delta. Alaska owns Horizon, yet they do not count Horizon into their fleet age. Same for AA and AE. Same for CO and COex. Same for DL and Comair/ASA. True, it depends on the situation, but NW is the only one who counts its regional arm as part of its fleet age among this group.

Singapore Airlines, through its SALE subsidiary, owns aircraft that it leases. Yet SALE aircraft are not counted in SQ fleet age. From a professional standpoint, an airline should only count the aircraft it operates itself as part of its fleet age. Because NW does not operate the RJs, rather --Mesaba/Express I--, counting the ARJs and CRJs is not a best practice. Also, even though an airline may not outright *own* some of its aircraft, those aircraft are tallied into the equation because the airline operates them.

RJs simply are not the same as mainline jets, anyway. The planes have a less capital/maintenance cost, less amenities, less weight. I would assume there are dramatically different FAA and FAR21, etc. regulations as well between RJs and "real" jets.

USAirways737:

Dont' be too offended. I know NW DC-9s have been refurbished and feature the 'space age' interior that businessmen love, but physically the planes are jalopies. I've seen the 9-30 cockpits... wow, what a mess. Now, the planes aren't bad, but from a maintenance and image-conscious perspective, it is not a best practice to have older planes. This should be fairly obvious. Notice how the only other airlines to operate planes as old as NW's are 3rd world carriers in Latin America... Avensa, Aeropostal, etc.

Don't be offended: NW does have a very good mx program that takes care of these babies well, but hopefully you get the point.

-imk
 
MRDC-10MD-11
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 3:03 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:34 am

This is only another plot to drive Sun Country, Vanguard, and AirTran Airlines out of the airport. Like NWA does control MSP enough. No other airline is more cut-throat then NWA.
 
nwa747-400
Posts: 1325
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 9:35 am

right AA drove Legend away by reconfiguring Fokker 100s while NW just lowers fares...real cutthroat in comparison.
 
MRDC-10MD-11
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 3:03 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 10:54 am

An article in the St. Paul Pioneer Press reports that Fronteir Airlines in Denver has never seen decompetitive stratagies as strong and forceful as NWA's moves. Northwest has to be one of the most corrupt airlines. I hope Sun Country is able to sustain their fight for competition and that the Federal Court Case with Sun Country vs. NWA after alligations of antitrust laws goes in Sun Coutry's favor.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:54 am

While it's good to see NWA ordering new planes, their rate of delivery isn't any faster than most of the other majors...actually compared to some it's slower. For example here's what Delta's been receiving over the last 10 months:

April 2000
2 737-800
2 757-200
4 767-300ER
(Note: this month was a little unusual as DL received planes that had been back logged because of the Boeing engineer's strike)

May 2000
2 737-800
2 757-200
2 767-300ER

June 2000
2 737-800
1 767-300ER

July 2000
1 737-800
1 757-200

August 2000
3 737-800
2 757-200
2 767-400ER

September 2000
3 737-800
1 757-200
3 767-400ER

October 2000
3 737-800
2 757-200
1 767-400ER

November 2000
3 737-800
3 767-400ER

December 2000
3 737-800
1 757-200
3 767-400ER

January 2001
1 737-800
2 767-400ER

Total of 55 Aircraft in 10 months or roughly one aircraft every six days. Of course, DL has been aggressively retiring the 727-200 and the L1011 so the fleet hasn't grown as rapidly as you might expect.
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 12:10 pm

The Express 1 CRJ200 and the Mesaba ARJ 85 also actually fly in Northwest colors unlike the Mesaba s340 and the Express 1 340 which fly in their own Airlink colors respectively.

I did not know about the RJ200s, but I know that Northwest owns the RJ 85 and leases it out to Mesaba. Northwest uses the RJ 85 on former DC-9-10 routes.

Mesaba had talked about getting a 40 seat regional jet, it is unknown which one, but the president spoke about it in the Airways Interview.

I think the new Northwest CEO is really going to focus on renewing the fleet. By 2005, I can guarantee we will know the DC-9 and 742 replacement by then. Don't be surprised if they are all from the Airbus family.
 
nwa747-400
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Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:35 pm

FLYPSN1:

I wasn't trying to say NW renewal rate was better than anyone elses....I think it is actually pretty good to see ANY renewal at all after so long without any.  Smile  Smile
 
A330_DTW
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Attn:

Mon Feb 26, 2001 12:22 am

Northwest Airlines is limited to how many aircraft can be delivered due to the finite number of aircraft that can roll off of an assembly line.

BTW: Northwest Airlines is NOT the only airline taking delivery of the A330-300 or the A319/320 or the 757-300.
 
A330_DTW
Posts: 357
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2000 9:29 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Mon Feb 26, 2001 12:29 am

In response to IMK's comments about an airline using numbers to make statistics look better, what about AA and the "More Room Throughout Coach" campaign?

This is just an elaborate scheme to make their load factor go up due to their dismal performance. Now that they have fewer seats in their planes while carrying the same number of passengers, the load factor dramatically increases, driving the stock price up!

 Smokin cool
 
alexinwa
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 2:08 pm

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:18 am

Does a 330 have the range to do say Seattle-Osaka non-stop? Or Seattle-Amsterdam? Im looking at NW's recent order and it doesnt fix that the 330's wont add any capacity and the 747 they fly Seattle-Tokyo has got to be close to 20 years old. What will they do? Replace that with a 330 as well? I dont see enough 744's in the fleet to cover what they need?
You mad Bro???
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:28 am

I also happen to harbor the belief that from a service standpoint, United is an abysmal airline.
They may have a young fleet, but how is the age of the fleet to be equated to how good your service is?

Legend Airlines pretty much blows that argument right out of the water.

Regarding the statistics, and how they can be used to paint a distorted or misleading picture-that is one of the oldest PR and propaganda tricks in the book. They use percentages.

To illustrate my point, let's say that a small town one year has 2 teenage suicides. The next year, for whatever reason, there are THREE suicides.
The press will turn around and scream about how "teenage suicide is up 50%!!!!!!!!!"

While not necessarily untrue, it's not exactly the profound message that it appears to be.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:50 am

Why is everyone making speed and amount of a/c being delievered an issue? The original post never made mention to "wow this is a otn of planes" or "no other airline is getting as many planes". The original post just mentioned that NW is getting a plane every 2 weeks. Lay off the poster of the original message! He's just stating a fact. Nothing happens overnight and I think its great NW is making a move for their people and passengers.

AZJ
 
nwa747-400
Posts: 1325
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Mon Feb 26, 2001 5:07 am

Thanks for the support guys. You are right, I was just stating a fact.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Mon Feb 26, 2001 8:34 am

I know that Northwest put off buying new jets in order to preserve capital after 1993, when it nearly went in
to Chapter 11. However, it is about time NW got some
new planes. It has the oldest fleet among the major
US airlines and while I genuinely believe that NW has
earned the title of most improved airline of 2000, it is
very hard to compete for business travellers when all
you can offer are DC10's and 747-200's and a handful
of 744's when most major airlines are flying the A340,
A330, 777, and 767.

ContinentalEWR
 
Super Em
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2000 7:55 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Mon Feb 26, 2001 9:42 am

Good luck to Northwest.I remember commercials that Twa used to run stating that they were getting new planes.(I forgot at what rate though.)Well look what is going on with them.I hope that doesn't happen to NWA
 
imkeww
Posts: 676
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:48 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:32 am

Once more...

Some of the the facts are WRONG (fleet age). You cannot count the RJs as no other major airlines do, even if they outright own feeders.

-imk

P.S. United may have atrocious service, but its inflight amenity standards are top-notch. Shame they can't get anything else to work right.
 
imkeww
Posts: 676
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:48 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:48 am

Just wanted to note that there *IS* a difference between service and inflight amenities. Although the latter is often included in the former, service stands most for employee-consumer relations, while inflight amenities include seat pitch provided/quality of seating/quality of food/quality of entertainment.

Oh, and I know that the fleet age # was the official statement from NW. And I *do* know that 'usage of the statistics' is one of the oldest tricks in the book. But, I happen to feel that in this case it is a more despicable use of 'the statistics'.

NW isn't spending THAT much in aircraft improvements relative to other carriers!

Okay, I will now shut up with this matter.

-imk
 
nwa747-400
Posts: 1325
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 2:54 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Mon Feb 26, 2001 12:55 pm

Northwest is going to have all newer planes before this decade is out. There is nothing wrong with buying conservatively. Why buy all new planes all at the same time if they are are going to cause you to do under.

Also, if you spread your replacement programs then not all the fleet gets old at the same time. I think that is actually a valid point to make. I don't neccsearliy need a brand new plane, just give me a good fare, get me there with my bags when you say you will, and be pretty nice about it (decent food helps too)
 
HlywdCatft
Posts: 5232
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:21 am

RE: One New Airplane Every 2 Weeks For Northwest

Mon Feb 26, 2001 8:18 pm

Think about it though, by the end of this decade the 747-400 will be old, 20+ years(Well Northwest's first batch since they are still being built). Northwest will have to start thinking about its replacement then.

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