sndp
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:07 pm

About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Wed Mar 07, 2001 5:11 am

About my post "KLM going Airbus"

I would like to say a few things as it seems that a few Boeing fans think I want to tackle Boeing here.
First of all, some people question my credibility because of this post. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I mentioned that I read this message written by a KLM cabin crew member who had it, according to him, from an employee magazine. I clearly indicated that my message was about a qoute by putting brackets around the subject of my post. People who question my credibility, please read my other posts.
My intention was to get to know the right information from people who know KLM and the only thing I get are insults about 'how does he dare to post such a message' and 'Boeing-I-Do-Not-Want-To-See-An-Airbus-Fans' who think I hope KLM is going rid of their Boeings in favour of Airbusses. FOR YOUR INFORMATION, I DO NOT CARE WHAT AIRCRAFT THEY TAKE, I JUST WANT TO KNOW THE EXACT INFORMATION!!!!! Is that asked too much!!!!!
I have posted this several times but once again, I am sick of all these Airbus vs Boeing things here, GROW UP and try to talk about airline policies, strategy, economic values!! Keep this forum on a higher level PLEASE!!!
So, if anyone has got some real information, I am still waiting! And for those who misunderstood me, by going Airbus I do not mean ONLY Airbusses but just replacing a certain Boeing/Mc Donnall Douglas type with an Airbus. So, yes, NW goes Airbus as they will replace the DC-10 with A330s, as from what I heard they took options for more than 50 (aviation journalist is the source!)
sndp
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: About My Post

Wed Mar 07, 2001 5:28 am

You are on medication, right?
Or are you just upset that SN is a lost cause?
 
watewate
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Wed Mar 07, 2001 6:14 am

If you want exact answer, this forum isn't the place for you. This is a place where we discuss rumours and opinions. You'll find out your answer KLM places its order- so take it easy.
 
wingman
Posts: 2793
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Wed Mar 07, 2001 7:38 am

Seems to me your post was perfectly acceptable. While the thought of another major European airline going all Airbus makes me want to vomit, the way you positioned the topic was very clear and unbiased. Don't worry about what morons think, there are too many of them in this world and it just consumes too much time.

I wonder though, if KLM went all Airbus the only real Boeing customer left in Europe would be BA. That would be truly pathetic and a sure sign that the EU is able to exert more influence over its carriers that the US does over its own. Does anyone have the figures showing the cross-sell percentages? Maybe we should just regulate the market and have all Airbus in Europe and all-Boeing in the US. Very boring and anti-competitive but perhaps the "fairest" solution.
 
magyar
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2000 4:11 pm

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Wed Mar 07, 2001 8:00 am


I do not really see what you mean by real Boeing costumer? AF has and is planning to have more B777, LH is rumoured with
B747X and B753, Alitalia has recently ordered the B777.
And BA is not even an all Boeing operator anymore! What makes
an airline a real Boeing costumer?

As far as the cross-selling percentages concerned, it is
interesting IMHO. Last year the US market carried the
order book of both manufacturer, IIRC. The Europian
sales were pathetic compared to it.

And the solution of this national issue in aviation should
be the denationalization of companies. Make Boeing a
non-US and Airbus a non-Europian company and than
the playground may be leveled.

Janos

 
wingman
Posts: 2793
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Wed Mar 07, 2001 11:40 am

This time I AM being facetious. It would be truly sad to see the US and the EU lock out the two manufacturers from their respective markets. To my point though (and I look forward to being corrected with facts), I would venture a guess that, in the past ten years, US carriers have ordered at least ten times the number of planes from Airbus than Euro carriers have ordered from Boeing. US Air's order for 400 alone is probably more than all continental airlines combined since 1990. Add United's, AWA's and NW's and it's a clear advantage to Airbus. The Airbus freaks may say it's due to joysticks and the Boeing freaks may say it's due to dumping, but it is also clear that the EU is able to exert much more pressure on its carriers than Bill or "W" can exert on US carriers. One thing is for sure, European carriers still haven't gone through the brutal cycle of deregulation and still depend on the kindness of their governments for protection. Just ask yourself, how the hell is it possible that Spain, France, Germany and Italy have no serious competitors to the national carriers after all these years?

 
magyar
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2000 4:11 pm

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Wed Mar 07, 2001 1:17 pm


>>
heir respective markets. To my point though (and I look forward to being corrected with facts), I would venture a guess that, in the past ten years, US carriers have ordered at least ten times the number of planes from Airbus than Euro carriers have ordered from Boeing.
<<

while this might be true, we should not forget that 20-30
years ago Europian airlines ordered almost only Boeing/MD
aircrafts. Simple because there was not much else. Do not forget
when an airline introduces `` busses``, they usually replace US made aircrafts. So, one can say that the Europians just make
it even now. I think this must be the most painful in the US.
30 years ago there was probably tough competition for orders,
between US manufacturers. So no matter who won, the capita
was heading toward the US from all over the world. The
airplane manufacturing was a milk cow for the US economy.
With the rise of Airbus, this is changing, and it is possible
that the US is getting into negative cashflow in commercial
aviation.

Janos

 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Wed Mar 07, 2001 6:05 pm

Both mnfrs are already denationalised - something like 30% of an Airbus is made in the US: engines, avionics, computers, ashtrays. And at least that much of a Boeing is made o/seas: wings from Korea, undercarriage from N Ireland, various sections from Japan, RR engines from the UK, etc etc. Airbus are responsible for something like 50-100,000 jobs in the US. Don't knock USAirways for buying Airbus, it's not hurting the US half as much as some of you think.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
GunFighter 6
Posts: 401
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2001 6:05 pm

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Wed Mar 07, 2001 6:32 pm

watewate

'If you want exact answer, this forum isn't the place for you'

Who are you to decide who belongs here or not ???
this forum is for everyone, everyone is entitled to post his opinion. if it doesn't suit you well thats your problem.
leave everyone in there own value.

Best regards
G.
 
F4N
Posts: 507
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2000 11:37 pm

RE: About My Post

Wed Mar 07, 2001 10:51 pm

Sndp: Since I made the only response to your "KLM going Airbus" post using the term "credibility", I'll assume you are partly referring to me. If so, please note:

No doubt our friends Sndp and Na are only giving us the opportunity to review something which they have read Was stated this way in order to acknowledge that I was drawing a clear distinction between the individual posting the topic (you) and your source of information.

Sometimes these things stretch the limit of credibility Was stated in this manner to point out that I was taking issue with the topic, not the individual who posted it. Whether the carrier in question is replacing Boeings with Airbus or Airbus with Boeings has nothing to do with it. The notion of replacing new equipment with newer equipment goes against some of the basic precepts followed by any business in business to make money.

There was no intention to offend. If you took it that way, my apologies.

F4N
 
BelugaBoy
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 10:36 pm

RE: About My Post

Wed Mar 07, 2001 11:08 pm

Typical reaction on a post like that, remember when the A380 was launched and topics were opened like (No US carrier will ever buy A380', one week later the first US carrier ordered the A380 ( freight OK but it is still an A380 ) and others admitted they were interested.

I would not be surprised at all that KLM is interested in the A330. Why not ? A lot of other companies ordered them didn't they ? They are free to choose the airplane they think fits them best for the purpose they need them for. It is even normal that KLM is interested in A330 just as they are probably interested in B767 ... Face it there are 2 big players so if you want to compare you don't have a lot of choice do you ? I think in this case it is a amrt move of KLM because Boeing will do everything to keep KLM as 'their' customer and Airbus will do everything to 'get in' So KLM will always be the winner in this case.

Maybe in stead of attacking Airbus it is time to start thinking why those companies that almost 100% fly ( or flew ) Boeing changed to Airbus. There should be a reason no ? Or do you think all people in those companies are stupid ?
And don't start telling that Airbus gives big discounts because Boeing does exactly the same, thats just part of the game in this business
 
Guest

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Wed Mar 07, 2001 11:20 pm

How many EU carriers are still owned/partly owned by their respective governments?

That may partly explain Airbus' success in Europe.

On the other hand, EU airlines are merely buying a/c which will produce large revenues.

This may mean buying Airbus for shorthaul ops, Boeing for longhaul. (BA).
 
NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Thu Mar 08, 2001 1:26 am

I will tell you with 100% accuracy that KLM has no idea as of yet what aircraft they will order for 767/MD-11/747 replacements. The order will be announced in June so your going to have to wait. Also whoever got the misinformation on the A320 series planes replacing the 737 you need to name some sources. Remember KLMuk,KLMCityhopper, transavia, and Martinair all do their own ordering of aircraft so don't confuse any of the orders with another entity.

I do agree with you on the Boeing/Airbus issue. It could and probably will go both ways 330/777-300 or 340/777-200. A380 vs. 747x? will not be anonounced any time soon. I would think with the NW order it will more likely be for both airlines 330/777-300. And I better get some respect from yall if this is correct.

Groet AMS,
NUair
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
watewate
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

RE: GunFighter 6

Thu Mar 08, 2001 3:54 am

Read the rest of my post. If you want facts, check the press release or respectable news sites. This forum is full of rumours and opinions. If you honestly think that even half the posts here are legit, you're grossly misinformed.
 
LJ
Posts: 4112
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Thu Mar 08, 2001 3:57 am

Do you mean that KLM is finally going to announce the order at the Paris Airshow? Thank you (I've been waiting for almost two years and I was beginning to think that KLM wouldn't replace those MD-11s)! As for the answer of the question: What will KLM buy? I agree with NUair that nobody knows anything.

Final point, the A320 rumour has circulated around Schiphol for a while (I think it was last September). According to this rumour (and I have to point out it's still only a rumour) KLMuk wanted to buy A320s. I wait and see if this rumour is true.

Regards
Laurens
 
watewate
Posts: 2216
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2000 6:00 am

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Thu Mar 08, 2001 4:05 am

Can anyone elaborate as to why NW and KL didn't place a joint order for a/cs? They have similar needs and could have gotten better price (I'm assuming) and given them the flexibility to change delivery slots amongst themselves. Why not?
 
gerardo
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 6:22 pm

RE: About My Post "klm Going Airbus"

Thu Mar 08, 2001 5:14 am

I don't think we will see joint orders ikn an alliance. The only one was perhaps an order placed byGATX Flightlease, the leasing arm of SAirGroup, which was meant to cover the needs of Qualiflyer airlines.

Alliances are loose cooperations. A joint aircraft order on that basis would be too risky.

About the topic: Although most rumours point to a Boeing order, KLM hasn't announced anything so far. Why? Because they didn't decide yet. So, in my opinion, everything is still possible.

Regards
Gerardo
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