eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport (BBI)

Thu Mar 08, 2001 8:15 am

Found this on the 'Senate Department for Urban Development' site on www.berlin.de.

THE NEW BERLIN-BRANDENBURG AIRPORT.

This is an extension to SXF, I presume?

Any Berliners here care to offer some comments or information?

Some photos:









Estimated completion is between 2007-2010. Est. Passenger levels by then will be 20million. Will LH move hub operations there?
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport (BBI)

Thu Mar 08, 2001 12:22 pm

The pics look great. It's funny how all of the new airports are modeling their ticketing areas after KLIA, SFO, etc...they look very nice.

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
Guest

RE: Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport (BBI)

Thu Mar 08, 2001 6:16 pm

"It's funny how all of the new airports are modeling their ticketing areas after KLIA, SFO, etc.."

Or indeed Stansted which has been built for well over 10 years. Natural light and everything on one level is the new thing.
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport (BBI)

Thu Mar 08, 2001 11:59 pm

Will there be any US carriers that will fly there? I know BA probably has a bunch of slots there reserved for them already.
"FUIMUS"
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport (BBI)

Fri Mar 09, 2001 12:03 am

Is this airport actually going to be built?

I don't think LH will move out of Frankfurt. When Munich was completed, they barely introduced one or two long-haul flights, and it took years until expansion started getting .... measurable.

PS: Yes, it does look like Stansted. Very much so, in fact.
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport (BBI)

Fri Mar 09, 2001 2:44 am

the airport is set to open around 2007, if the plans get under way soon. however, i doubt it will be ready by then.
berlin heavily needs a new airport because TXL is overcrowded and the other airports don´t really work as international gateways.
although i highly doubt that LH will move any major hub operations to BBI, i´m sure BBI will receive some importance. in fact, LH ordered its CRJ 700s to implement a more sophisticated network from berlin and now that the german government has moved there and many high yield business are settling in or close to berlin, i´m sure the BBI will become at least some regional hub.
i´m sure that the right airside infrastructure will trigger some growth as well, so i assume that BBI will get some more long-haul flights, but that should also depend on the outcome of the new TXL-IAD service by LH.
we´ll just have to wait and see.
sorry, but i couldn´t see the pictures, don´t know why. could anyone explain how the airport will look like, runway arrangement, etc.
thanks

rgds
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
NUAir
Posts: 1144
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 4:24 am

RE: Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport (BBI)

Wed Mar 14, 2001 10:14 pm

With the recent denial of Eurowings with LH and there departure from KL it is said that they may move operations to the new Berlin airport and start their own hub eventually expanding to larger aircraft and more destinations.

With Berlin as the largest city and political center it seems foolish for LH to not build a hub. Imagine a European airline with three major hubs (not including Aeroflot of course). LH could easily become the largest European airline, topping AF and BA. It's a shame that they are so slow to expand. Its only going to be a matter of time before Easyjet, GO, Virgin, Buzz, or Ryanair decide to attack the German market. LH is a sitting duck and I think they are in need of some more open minded and agressive management.

So I guess the question is, has anyone heard any other plans for a new hub in Berlin by any airlines? And is LH increasing any frequencies or adding any new flights to Berlin?

NUair

NUair
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport (BBI)

Thu Mar 15, 2001 8:02 am

EW moving the operations to the new berlin airport?
well, although that could make sense, i don´t think there´s been any decision on something like that because no one already knows when the airport will finally be ready. it´s supposed to be ready by 2007, there has been already so much delay, i don´t think that 2007 will be met.

i certainly agree that because berlin has now become the seat of the german government and many high yield business are locating near or in berlin, that berlin´s importance will significantly grow within the next years.
but why is that if LH implemented a hub in berlin that it would grow much bigger? however, LH is already bigger than AF and in some aspects (fleet) it´s already bigger than BA, although such figures don´t really matter. in regard of the financial figures LH has already superceded both as well.

LH is slowly expanding? sorry, but i don´t think that´s true. it is correct that some carriers trimmed down expansion a little bit, among them LH, but they still expanded heavily last year and they will do so as well this year (introduction of some new major routes, heavily expanding traffic in MUC, fleet expansion), although more carefully. we just witnessed what overcapacity caused to KL and BA...
just a little report from the LH homepage, which should shed some light and facts about LH´s growth:
The passenger count last year rose by 7.4 per cent to an all-time high of 47 million, reflecting growth in all traffic regions. The capacity increase of 6.4 per cent was again entirely absorbed by a rise of 9.1 per cent in capacity sold. The seat load factor was up accordingly by 1.8 percentage points to 74.4 per cent. Lufthansa maintained its position against European competitors in all traffic regions: Its capacity increase of 6.4 per cent was well above the AEA (Association of European Airlines) average of plus 4.2 per cent. The increase in capacity sold - 9.1 per cent at Lufthansa against AEA growth of 7.5 per cent - tells a similar story.

and i certainly wouldn´t call LH a sitting duck because figures show that LH is currently the most profitable carrier in europe as well as one of the most profitable worldwide. why are they a sitting duck, because there´s no LH hub already in berlin, i don´t understand, sorry.
in addition, i don´t tend to think they´re not open-minded and you call the LH management not agressive? so the deal with EW is no agressive move to shut down major competition within germany and from KL, AF and AZ (fed by EW)? in addition, LH has previously kicked Go out of the MUC-STN market with agressive pricing and LH is facing heavy regulatory scrutiny not only in conjunction with its star deals (LH-SK-OS). i do think that in some aspects LH is really acting anti-competitive and i certainly wouldn´t call it not agressive.

i don´t know if there are any major additions to the LH network from berlin except for the introduction of the TXL-IAD flight. there will be a slight increase in overall european traffic because LH is adding some flights to feed this IAD service with additional frequencies, f.e. from STR and VIE. and because they need to free up some capacity for those services, some sources state that LH is seriously thinking about reinitiating services from tempelhof THF, to switch some commuter services from TXL back to THF. this was thought to be introduced for the upcoming summer schedule however, i haven´t heard any definitive statements about that and i haven´t got an example of the new schedule, yet, as well, so i cannot give any more info on that, sorry.

well, just my thoughts and opinions...

regards
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport (BBI)

Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:58 am

well, as of the summer schedule, the only flights from THF operated by LH itself are the flights to NUR.
still, there are several other destinations, which are being served from THF, which include MHG (C9), DTM (EW), FMO (teamLH), SCN (C9), VCE (EW), GWT (C9), LUX (LG).
some of this services are new, f.e. FMO, and some have already existed, but only since now carry LH designations because of the new partnership with EW.

rgds
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
Logos
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 10:47 pm

RE: Berlin-Brandenburg International Airport (BBI)

Fri Mar 16, 2001 7:59 am

Berlin does need a new airport as Tegel (as convenient as it is) is simply inadequate for a city of 3.5 million and has no place to grow. Hence, something has to be done.

Having said that, BBI is designed as if it will be someone's hub without anyone (let alone LH) committing to using it as such. DL pulled out the only flight to the US 2 years ago because there weren't enough business passengers to make it profitable. When LH announced the TXL-IAD service, they emphasized what a risk they were taking and chastened the Berlin community to use the flight or risk using it. TXL-IAD was chosen in the hope that UA's domestic feed at IAD could keep the flight going as they realized that no one was going to connect through TXL.

For those reasons and simple geography (Berlin is closer to Poland than to any city in former West Germany) I really question whether Berlin will become a hub of any sort. What's east of here? Poland and the former Soviet Union. What's north of here? Finland and Sweden. It's hard to imagine sufficient traffic going through Berlin to those places with yield that would make it viable.

The most logical candidate for hubbing would be LH and I don't see them doing it with the investment they already have in FRA and significant operations (with overseas flights) in both DUS and MUC. There will be flights which the Berlin market itself will support and little more. Perhaps another flight to the US (probably NYC), but that's about it.

The airport itself is caught up in so many squabbles as to who will build it, etc. that I don't see any way that it will be ready before 2010. And even then, I think it's too much airport (at least at the start). A flexible model which has expansion in mind would be more realistic. By the way, in answer to someone's question, BBI is being built essentially on the site of SXF (Schoenefeld, the old East Berlin airport) with a new runway and the Terminal being built.

Cheers,
Dave in Berlin
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