medinaj
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 5:39 am

Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:20 am

Just wondering...

I've read a lot of "very well supported" theories on different websites. What do you aviation experts think?
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:23 am

There are so many theories and stories surrounding that incident that we will probably never know the full truth. Add to that both sides have presented awfully strong cases. And even if the truth were presented, many people will still never believe it.

I guess it all boils down to whatever you WANT to believe. Some support the missile theory. Others the fuel vapors. It's almost like a religion to them.
 
medinaj
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 5:39 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:29 am

Yeah, but I was surprised when I heard about the FBI, or whoever, not letting lots of eye witnesses testify. They even have an association and published an ad in the Washington Post!

What's up with that? Is any of the pilots who saw anyhting here on the boards by any chance??
 
Guest

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 9:30 am

I'm no expert but I remember hearing about fuel tanks ground connection problem on older 741s. Basically the two wing tanks were not at the same potential causing possible sparks in one of the tanks.... my knowlegde is superficial and I don't know many details of this theory, or if I explained it correctly... I'd sure like to know if others heard this, or learn more.
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:57 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 10:52 am

I have no doubt whatsoever that the center fuel tank exploded. Where I disagree with the official report is that I know it exploded when a missle flew through it. The eyewitness testimony of over 300 witnesses cannot be ignored. And one of the eyewitnesses was a naval munitions expert. He, of all people, would know what a missle striking an aircraft looks like. I work with jet fuel everyday. Low voltage sparks in the fuel cell are not only not likely to happen, but are surely not capable of igniting jet fuel. The igniters that light the misted fuel in the engines run at 40,000 volts or more. Jet fuel just isn't that volatile, not even in vapor form. Cover up? maybe.... misleading information..... certainly. But the question remains, how DID the navy respond so quickly to this incident when it normally takes them days or weeks to repond? And, why did they not allow civilian assistance until after the area had been thouroughly purged of evidence? Too much here smells rotten for it not to be rotten....
 
JZucker
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 1999 6:16 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 11:54 am

I thought that I would add the fact that a "missile like object" was caught by accident in a pciture of a women getting married. When enhanced, the object was clearly a large missile. I was stunned. I stared at the TV in disbelief....
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 12:05 pm

If you're talking about the same show I saw, they also say that an analysis of the picture of that "missile" shows it going in a direction away from where TWA800 would have been.

My personal opinion is that it was hit by a UFO that had suffered some kind of propulsion failure. lol j/k.  Nuts

I'm don't feel like spending the hour it would take to talk about all the evidence to debunk the missile theory but my opinion is that the crash was precipitated by a mechanical failure caused by lax maintenance on an aging aircraft.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 1:08 pm

I sort of believed it at first (and given the total ineptitude and carelessness of the US military
on occasion, as evidenced by the Ehima-Maru
incident off Hawaii), I would not have been
surprised if a missile had in fact destroyed the
TWA 747. But, I no longer believe that theory.

The plane was 26 years old and while I think
TWA had excellent safety standards overall,
this accident happened as a combination of
an old plane, design flaw, and pure bad luck.

ContinentalEWR
 
Critter_592
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2000 3:07 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 3:26 pm

I believe the aircraft was shot down. Too many lives were lost for them to be hiding whatever it is. I still dont think the Investigation is over yet.

What was the "light" that the other pilot reportedtly saw when he went to flash his owns lights before it blew up?
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 4:20 pm

I wouldn't be supprised if a missle did infact down TWA 800. But keep in mid that there were similar accidents that did take place due to fuel tank problems like the MD-80 incident in the Philipines that exploded on the ground. Didn't RdnGold loose two friends aboard TWA 800? What does she think about what downed TWA 800? Some families are actually beyond caring because if it is a missle then the US gov will do anything to cover it up. I won't be surprised if the Navy, FBI, TWA and NTSB covered it up altogether if someday it's proven. I bet you that there is a buch of reports at the CIA or the archieves about this. If TWA was found to have been involved to save their a$$es then I'll sell or destroy all off all my TWA merchandise and loose respect for them; Just like I did with PAN AM aka Corporation of murderurs (according to PA 103 families)when they were negelgent when they had lax security at FRA as well as being found neglagent in the safety and security off PA 03 passengers as well as having crappy management which lead to the PA 103 bombing that killed my best frined and his family on board Ditto for the groups above.
"FUIMUS"
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:06 pm

I had just gor a horrible thought. What if there were passengers and crew who did surive but were then left to die to protect the Navy in what they did. I pray that this is not true and that someone can prove me wrong. For the passenger's and crew's sake I hope they were all killed on impact then left to die in the atlantic when Navy ships refused to pick them up and the crew on-board had pretended not to hear their calls for help in oreder for the gov to protect it's ass from potential witnesses. I had just got a horrible vison that this happened. This is the scaruest I've had since I had dreamt of being on board PA 103 and had died with him and his family. I pray that this is not true otherwise as soon as I'm done with University I'm moving out of the US. I can't bear paying taxes and supporting a government that took so many innocent lives at their prime. Families of PA 103 as well as firends had dificulties communticating and were always snubbed by the George Bush Administration and Clinton didn't do much himself. He didn't do anything to help us seek justice. If it is true and my vision is correct then this makes me hurt and ashamned that I'm an american and this is happening all over again.  Crying I'll be relieved if someone can come up with evidence that I'm wrong. I went through the pain of loosing my best friend on PA 103 at age 9 when I was 9 myself. It'll be more heart wrenching to know that some child around the world is going through the same hell and pain that I did. I hate to be in the parent or parents shoes in trying to expain death to a nine year old a few days before Christmas as well as to explain on why he'll never be back for Thanksgivings, Christmases, birthdays, summers, watch you grow and live out life. Death of someone you love and care for can't be called back as I learned the hard way at a very young age. Once loved ones are gone; then thats it. It's perminant. It was very devistating to me and my family. Families are destroyed and the lives lost will never be replced; The survivors lives can never be repaired. Although some do find some sort of closure; Tragically some don't even find closure. One man I had talked to who lost his daughter on PA 103 said "Closure will come to me when the lid to my coffin is shut."
"FUIMUS"
 
Carioca Canuck
Posts: 632
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 4:03 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:16 pm

25 years from now the truth will come out and it will be said that it was due to a missile.

My guess is friendly fire........................

It's not like it hasn't happened before.
 
TG992
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2001 12:03 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 7:35 pm

VirginA340:

With the utmost respect - I think that mentioning your friend's tragic death in just about every post you make is not helping your frame of mind or ability to 'move on' from this awful loss...

Please, I'm not trying to offend you.. just making a suggestion..
-
 
United Airline
Posts: 8773
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 7:47 pm

It COULD be a missile.

Or due to other wave intervention around the sea........ It is something to do with the radio communications between the fighter planes as well as the Aircraft Carrier. That is what I have heard before.

 Smile
 
VC-10
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 8:19 pm

What never ceases to amaze me is the number of regular contributers to this site who knew someone who was on one of these high profile incidents.
 
airmale
Posts: 7125
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:48 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sat Mar 10, 2001 8:27 pm

I believe that it was a missile that destroyed TWA800.
.....up there with the best!
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sun Mar 11, 2001 1:04 am

TG992; It's ok I'm not offended. I'm pretty much over it. I'm just giving you an explanation on pretty much what TWA 800 families had gone through for the duration of the investigation. Try imagining being in their shoes after hearin on whether if a bomb, missle or mech failure downed your loved ones pain. Believe me after the trial(quite happy with the verdict and I do agree with the evidence) I'm even more better and it does bring closure. Look at my posts carefully. I don't mention it in all of them. Only in the PA 103 or PA posts. I don't want people to forget on what happened. I want them not only to remeber the bombing, but the betrayls(the airline as well as a few government agencies) and the family's search for justice as well as the 270 that never made it back home.
"FUIMUS"
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sun Mar 11, 2001 4:42 am

"I won't be surprised if the Navy, FBI, TWA and NTSB covered it up altogether if someday it's proven." Oh please. You think the thousands of people involved are capable of keeping this secret? Have you ever had a secret between two friends? How long before it came out? A week? Two?

I'd be more worried about the fact that the US Navy really DID shoot down an Iran Air A300 on a published airlane over international waters. Or the framing of Libyan suspects after the Pan Am 747 disaster over Scotland, which the US Gov't really DOES know more about than it's letting on.

Why can't people just accept that TWA 800 was a tragic accident waiting to happen to an airliner that had flown way past it's design life? It has to involve the government being out to get people, lie to them, cover stuff up. This isn't the X-Files, grow up.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE: VirginA340/Cedarjet Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sun Mar 11, 2001 8:41 am

Hi there,
Cedarjet I agree with your comment to some extend.
VirginA340, what if more evidence comes up, proving
that the one Libyan individual, agent, suspect, is also
innocent? Will you start having horrible dreams again?
I think you are very much a make believe person.
Unfortunatly, many a time one is not given the truth
about everything. If you want truth, then you better quit
trusting the big players in world politics.
Imagine a close relative of yours being wrongly
accused of downing an Aircraft, what would you feel?
My case has rested long time ago.
Kindest regards,
Advancedkid
 
Carioca Canuck
Posts: 632
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 4:03 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sun Mar 11, 2001 12:08 pm

Cedarjet......

No disrespect intended here, but I'll assume that you have never served in the military forces of any country for a moment, as it appears you are not aware of the powers of persuasion that are available to members of the military command heirarchy.

I have.....as an intelligence officer in my armored regiment of the Canadian Armed Forces.

I know "A LOT" of things that I still cannot(and will not)talk about to this day.........19 years after I served my 6 year stint. Believe me.......the alternative is not pleasant.

A TWA 800 coverup ??? No problem...................
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

Its Never Fails

Sun Mar 11, 2001 1:30 pm

No matter what anyone says on these forums, there are always the assholes who come on here and talk trash about others. Just because you do not agree with someone or they say something that is incorrect you just have to start calling them ignorant, stupid, or worse. Until you've never made a mistake, stop criticizing others.

BTW, I'll try to clarify my comment on lax maintenance. At the time, no one realized that aging wiring could be a major problem on older aircraft. Because of this, no one was required to preform specialized maintenance on aircraft electrical wiring. The lax maintenance was not the fault of any one organization or company. As far as anyone can tell, the FAA and Boeing did not know the dangers of wiring in aging aircraft. Unfortunately, it seems that we only know about a specific problem after an airliner has crashed.

Now I might not work for Boeing, Airbus, the FAA, the NTSB, or an airline but that doesn't mean I am a ignorant fool. I might not be able to tell you how the electronics on a 777 work, but I can hold my own with a good number of the people on this forum.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Guest

RE:Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sun Mar 11, 2001 1:54 pm

A lot of this faulty wiring vs missle thing seems to center around the volatility/flammablility of Jet-A. If you were to try to ignite an amount of Jet-A with a match, would it work? If not, wouldn't that rule out the possibility of sparking wires blowing up a plane? I've heard it takes a lot to ignite the stuff.

I believe the US government would go to great lengths to cover up a missle, and I don't put it past them to do so.

Corey777
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:20 pm

Cedarjet; appartently you haven't talked to any of the armend forces or any of the ex CIA, FBI or any other governmet agencies on a possibility that this might have happened. Listen to what Cairoca Canuck is telling you. There are many files on the case that are still to this day confidential. You are living in a another planet if you don't belive that nothing like this can happen. So before you have the nerve to tell a person who had a best friend who was blown up aloong with his family why don't you try and keep an open mind on stuff that is out there and refuses to die. I find it quite stange that many people around the world will believe that there is a goverment cover up in the JFK assassination, and Gulf war syndrome right to alien landings at area 51 and people will want this out in the open and will do anything just to prove that the gov did know about it. But when 230 people get blown up in a 747 out of the sky right before more than 300 people in Long Island including members of the local Coast Guard everyone will say anyone believing in a coverup by the gov as well as other parties. I'm as well as others including the victims families are being called lyers, crazy or being told to shut up. Cedarjet until you've seen, been with me or even walked a mile in my shoes or any of the other shoes of anyone whose lost a loved one in something theis terrible (in which you probably haven't and I hope you never find out my pain and suffering) Then you shouldn't be telling me to disregard in what I believe as well and tell me to grow up You sound no better than the government officials as well as PAN AM executive who swore that the Helsinki Warning was not true when infact it was. I was a victim of it as well as others. I didn't ask for this neiter did they. The problem is nieve people like you who won't belive that stuff like this can happen unless if it's you or anyone you care and love. I don't expect you to understand. You sound no better than the politicans and the executives from PAN AM that we had to deal with after the bombing about not only the Helsinki warning but as well as other info from what the gov knew about the plane to how shoddy PA's security at FRA really was when they just wanted it out of the way and not have to put up with it. By the way I said if these organizations have been involved. Big difference. Stranger thing have happened before when the gov is involved. Just ask the ex CIA agents out there and trhey'll tell you. You've really got to be nieve if you believe that this crap doesn't happen.


Advance kid; I'd appriciate if if you stop verbally stalking on this forum. What in the hell do you mean by calling me make believe!?! How about you come up to JFK near New York City and I'll show you how make believe I am. You wouldn't want to be in the same room with me or any of the other PA 103 families spewing you retoric your comment was out of line and you are quite disrespectful. Yes I would be quite saddened if a realtive of mine was accused of such a horrible crime. I don't trust the big players of politics but rather the evidence presented at the trail and the witness to the clothing store owner that did id Megrahi in the store who bought the clothes that matched the clothes found in Lockerbie as well as The Mebo exec who also had testified along with evidence from the plane. If more evidence happens to come out then the case will be reviewed. But until lthat happens then. I can't imagine anyone being wrongly accused. Now try to imagine a young child being told by his parents that he won't see his best friend again or the family he was with a few days before christmas because his plane crashed. Try to imagine on what my parents gone through in tring to tell their child that someone had blown him up and 270 innocent people who didn't even had the chance to fight back. Read the book PAN AM 103. A good book written by Susan and Dan Cohen. They had a doughter who was part of the 35 Syracuse University students that were murdered on-board the plane. She was on 20 years old. Yes Adance kid I do have nightmare to this day but no as frequent and I do take medication as well as get counseling for my trama. I hope that you are happy with yourself that you are trying to implicate that I'm a lyer (which I'm not) and that I'm not real. I am quite real. Unless you have lost someone you love in something this devistating then you have no idea on what they have to go through to pick up the peices and just try to get through another painful day knowing that they'll never be the same that a piece of their hearts were ripped out. That can never be replaced. I may not be good in verbal arguments. Bu I among many others are living examples of what we have to go through just to try and move on. So you had better quit patting yourself on the back and enlarging your ego because you will not further destroy me than I've already have been.
"FUIMUS"
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Sun Mar 11, 2001 3:40 pm

I'm gonna have to go with Cedarjet on this one. I simply cannot believe that a cover up involving a high-profile accident of this magnitude was possible. Especially in an electronic information age supplied with a media that is obsessed with both coverups and aviation accidents. Please understand, it's not that I would necessarily put it past the US, or any country's government, for that matter - unfortunately our American government seems much to inept to pull something like this off.

Also, for those in this forum who have lost close friends and family in delilberate criminal aviation accidents, I am so very sorry. Your pain is unfathomable. However, I too have lost friends in a commercial accident (ValuJet 592). And although this accident was not a deliberate terrorist act, I know first hand the grief and sorrow of a plane crash.

That said....let us please keep our discussions on the topics. I am not dismissing anyone's pain in the face of such a tragedy, but this thread was meant to discuss the missile theory of TWA800.

Travis
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE: VirginA340 The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:43 am

HI there,
You have missunderstood me all the way
and I wonder if it is your intention.
Of course I understand your pain for the loss
of a dear friend at the age of nine. I never
implemented that you are a liar either.
You better clarify how you got that notion.
What I am trying to show you is that you
are treating both cases of TW800 and
PA103 differently. On the one hand you
mistrust the government statements regarding
TW 800 but fully believe and trust what the
same government stated about PA103 and the
following trials. The "evidences" examined at
Camp Zeist as you should well know are not
astounding but happen to be circumstantial,
and we never know, hard evidence may still
be discovered either to prove the already
proven circumstantial evidence or even disprove
it. In the later case our only "suspect" would also
be as innocent as his other companion.
What you are doing is "special pleading".
What do you think of the other accused who
wasn't found guilty? You wished he were
guilty? I wonder what you would think if other
hard evidence is shown proving our second
accused is also NOT guilty.
You see, nothing can really be ruled out to
your likes or dislikes.
I hope you have a nice day and a good night's
sleep.
Kindest regards,
Advancedkid
 
VirginA340
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 2:39 am

Advance kid; You Why are you trying to force your opinions on me where did I say in my post that I trust the US gov? I trust in the evidence that was bought up that is solid enough. Bear in mind that the US gov wanted to dump this in the UN's lap courtesy of then President George Bush Sr and didn't want anything to do with it. Sweep it under the rug as one would put it. If you think that you can do a better job in the investigation; than be my guest. I've heard the thoeries before such as Iran either bombing the plane or hiring people in Syria as a contractor to do it for them. Where is the credible evidence? What are your theories this time? Bear in mind that the shop keeper in Malta as well as other have seen Megrahi and that evidence presented at the trial has pointed to him. As far as Fhimah is concerned. The evidence shows that he was either duped or had very little to do with the bombing. But thats one thing I don't agree on considering that there were reports of explosives kept in his home, and his office at Lybian Arab. He also had access to luggage tags and that Fhimah frequently had clearance to by-pass security and and also check in luggage for passengers without security clearance since he was the station manager for Libyan Arab and that the two were working together closely days before the bombing.
"FUIMUS"
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 4:26 am

I also agree with Cedarjet.

I was following the U.S. Congressional hearings on this tragedy a couple years ago and one piece of testimony really caught my attention. Essentially, the FBI man in charge of the Flt 800 investigation (Kellstrom?) was in fact ready to declare this a missile/bomb strike but his underling metallurgist experts last minute convinced him otherwise explaining to him (and us at these public hearings) that their was absolutedly no evidence of an entrance or exit hole from an alleged missile hit. I prefer to look at this in a logical, analytical manner than a conspiratorial one. Because conspiracy theorists are most often just looking for evidence to back their theorys rather than looking objectively at the facts to find the truth.

For those who shout conspiracy, conspiracy. Should an actual correctable problem exist to a potential 1 in a billion fatal flaw. This will simply draw needed resources away from rectifying a real problem in the name of junk science.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 5:26 am

The evidence presented re PA103 was full of holes, the evidence of the shopkeeper in Malta was by no means conclusive and the Scottish lawyer who constructed the basis for the trial on behalf of the Scottish and US officials said on CNN that the verdict was wrong. In the Middle East, you punish who you can, not who you should.

TW800:
* I don't doubt for a second that the US Gov't would attempt to cover-up their role in a disaster like TW800 if they were involved. I just don't believe they'd succeed. There is no dumber institution on earth.
* There is absolutely no evidence of a missile strike, and that wreckage has been examined more carefully than any other wreck in aviation history. Too many civilians (NTSB scientists for one) have closely inspected the reconstructed debris. These are very intelligent and dedicated professionals.
* As I have said here before, a missile strike coverup would involve so many (thousand) people, it only takes one to be tempted by the book deal and the chat on the sofa with Bryant Gumbal and playing themselves in the TV movie.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE: Cedarjet And VirginA340 Sile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:05 am

Hi there,
Cedarjet, my hat off to your responce reagrding
PA103 and the middle east. It couldn't be told any
clearer than this.
And VirginA340 if you don't consider what Cedarjet
is confirming then I can only tell you to go and meet
someone who attended at Camp Zeist.
I should rest my case at this point.
Kindest regards,
Advancedkid
 
AA777
Posts: 2358
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 7:07 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:17 am

Anything is possible..... I support the Missile Theory...
-AA777
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:17 am

Thanks AdvancedKid, I had a pop at you about Saudi in another thread so your comments here are most charitable.

Also on TW800, I'm VERY suspicious of eyewitnesses - a group of people were watching when Air Florida crashed a 737 into the Potomac. Investigators took them back to the spot where they were standing and asked them to all point at once to where they saw the 737 hit the river. 3,2,1. They all pointed in completely different directions.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:57 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:29 am

In trying to reach an objective opinion about TWA800, you shouldn't overlook the fact that is was many DAYS after the accident occured before any civilians were allowed in to assist in the recovery and investigation. This includes the FAA and the NTSB. The Navy handled everything up until this point and this allowed an awful lot of opportunity to slant or destroy the evidence to suit their coverup. The report that the NTSB released does not fit the facts. Jet A does NOT under any circumstances spontaneously combust. The wires that the NTSB is saying caused ignition operate at an extremely LOW voltage.... the voltage going to the igniters in the engines that actually ignite the misted fuel operated at 40,000 volts or more. Enough to kill a man if you touched it while it was charged. I work with jet fuel everyday. I work with the same systems they are saying ignited the fuel and I am telling you it just is not possible. The tests that they performed to "prove" their theory only showed that a substantial ignition source was needed to touch off the JET A in the near empty fuel cell.. I believe they actually used explosive detonaters to set it off after they spent hours trying to do it with the "transient voltage" crap they said caused the accident. Granted, the evidence does not FULLY support either theory, but the stuff the Government put out is pure rubbish. I read the report in the lunchroom at work with a roomfull of other AMTs and we laughed our asses off at the crap the government was saying caused the accident and about the cockpit continuing to fly on its own after the explosion being the "missle" people saw. It just doesn't work that way. the truth is out there, and it will all come out at some point. But the truth has NOTHING to do with what the NTSB tries to make you believe happened.
 
Guest

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:36 am

You all should go to www.whatreallyhappened.com , they have a lot of info and documents on the TWA800 cover-up.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 8:05 am

* No amount of effort on the part of Navy divers can eradicate evidence of a missile strike.
* The NTSB, once again, are dedicated to making air travel safe. They are not the FAA.
* If JET A is so non-combustible, why did the tank of a Philippine 737 blow up during pushback at Manila? What about that Iran AF 747 that exploded over Spain in 75 after a fuel tank blew up? I know these are rare incidents indeed but TWA wasn't the first time a tank exploded. At least the third time.
* The scenario of the cockpit breaking off and the rear fuselage jolting upwards could have been invented by the investigators to match up to possibly erroneous eye witness accounts - the US Gov't is trying to explain something that never happened so their population isn't suspicious about something the Gov't didn't actually do. The Gov't is not 'innocent til proven guilty' in the eyes of a lot of Americans. Just cos they didn't blow the plane up doesn't mean they don't feel the need to exonerate themselves against the accusations. Dumbest institution in the world, remember? Even the most ardent conspiracy theorist in the world would have trouble denying the truth in THAT statement.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Alpha 1
Posts: 12343
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 8:26 am

I believe it about as much as I believe that Elvis, JFK and Hitler are alive and well in South America.
 
cicadajet
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 1:54 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 8:47 am

First of all, I absolutely lack the technical knowledge to have an informed opinion on that basis...and I doubt I will ever know for sure...however, a few other factors should be considered:
1> The Navy/US govt/etc continually denied that military vessels were in the area - then one by one, over time...the information leaked out..1 vessel, 2 vessels, 3 vessels, etc..
2> Pilots from 3 separate aircraft beleived they saw the missle: the National Guard C-130 pilots, and Two commercial airline pilots - some of which had experience with viewing missles in military experience (ie: they knew what missles look like)..
3> Petn (sp?) explosive WAS detected on the TWA jet... this was later explained by saying that particular aircraft had once served as a training for bomb-sniffing dogs - and apparently some trace of the explosive must've been left over.
4> some Modern missles aim for the center of mass (which would bring it to the main fuel tank rather than seeking heat of engines)
5> Certainly Pierre Salinger had an interest in NOT turning his legacy into a joke.. no motive to "write a book" - thats ridiculous on the face of it. He could write about the Kennedy's if he needed media attention or money
etc etc... Having said that, many many many serious people do not beleive there is any conspiracy regarding TWA 800- so I do not discount that either..but for those that dismiss conspiracy out of hand, I have to beleive they did not follow the "Tailwind" story on CNN too closely. clearly, "stories" can be controlled in certain cases where one might not think it possible... and just remember: "I did NOT have sex with that woman"...
 
SJC-Alien
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 1999 1:15 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:08 am

This is my take on TW800. This is just from what I've read, and one ex-Pan Am mechanic I just happened to talk to in 1997, never knew the guy, and he brought it up based on my airliner stickers on the back of my Ford Van. I was at his house for an appointment on electric service.

First, the ex-Pan Am man. Yes. it was possible for an electric spark to ignite the fuel tank, according to him. His take was that it should have happened on the ground, not in the air. When I asked him why, he said temperature inside the tanks was a big factor.

When I asked him how this has never happened before, in the air OR on the ground, he said there were quite a few variables to be reached before one would explode. He indicated he was leaning towards older jet/worn out parts, etc, and had already talked to the FBI and FAA(They came by his house and talked to him) after the crash of TW800. His take, not mine.

The US Government. How long was the U-2 kept secret? How long was the SR-71 kept secret? How long was Area 51 kept secret? How long was the F-117 kept secret? How long was the B-2 kept secret? Anybody care to cross the boundaries at Area 51 and see what happens to you? Large triangles floating silently around Belguim in the late 1980's,to start, and now the USA has them sighted all the time. Anybody remember the Phoenix lights of 3/13/1997? The major news media, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC all ignored it, except local coverage and USA today paper. Thousands of people in the Phoenix, Arizona,USA saw a huge triangle early in the evening, as well as Southwest Airlines pilots from their cockpits at Skyharbor International Airport(PHX).Then, another event later in the evening(my take is the 'inept' US Gov't throwing something else up to take the investigation away of the original event)These are just a very few, v-e-r-y few items that the good ole 'inept'? US Government can't keep secret for very long. Does the US Government control our Media? I say yes.

What about the eyewitness testimony on TW800 of the surface to air missles going up from the ground near where they were? Too many people saw something, not all are qualified observers. Some are smarter than others.

Think of it this way. During a murder trial, average people are brought in the give testimony in regards to a case. They talk about what they saw and heard. The jurors are usually normal people too! They listen to all the evidence and make a decision based on THOSE peoples testimony. If these people can't be trusted, then every murder conviction should be tossed out because eywitness testimony can't be trusted. The same goes for people who 'saw' something leave the ground when TW800 when down. This is all on record and can be verified, visit the TWA800 webpage and read it for yourself. There is enough leaks to give credence to "Cedarjet" and his post, but I feel there is an even more sinister arm of the Gov't that will 'Clean up" events, when they control the Media. If anybody has even a passing interest in the 'Roswell Event - the alleged UFO crash at Rosewll New Mexico/USA 1947(I say shootdown of a UFO) is a classic example of a leaking story with a lot of truth, but not all the answers are available right now. Read the books.

If anybody thinks the US Government can't hide things, tell me why the National Security Act is still in effect? No, not because of the 'National Interest/Security'-but why is it REALLY in effect.

I agree with Carioca Canuck. If you're superiors in the Military don't want you to talk about something, they will enforce it. Period. Try going around a Military order and see what you get.

My take on TW800 is something happened, but the tank didn't explode based on sitting on the tarmac at JFK. I'm leaning towards friendly fire, or worse.

One final note, and I don't do too many post here lately(I just read them,,,but this struck a nerve...), I'm way to busy,,,but lighten up people. The rules of Airliners.net are to be courteous. If you don't remember the rules, please re-read them. There are many ways to respond to someone's post, nicely. Let's keep it civil, so we don't loose the freedom.

Have a good one!
SJC Alien

 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 5:55 pm

Yes, I know all about the National Security Act, but this does not just involve the military - what about the NTSB? These people are civilians, not military. The National Security Act (or Official Secrets Act, as it is known in the UK) goes hand-in-hand with a culture in the military. Civilians don't have the same discipline, and they don't understand the full ramifications of not keeping quiet.

I feel I need to stress this point again: you cannot hide the evidence of a missile strike on a wreck. If investigators can tell what type of explosive was used on PA103, and what subgroup of Semtex, they sure can tell the difference between a missile and a fuel tank explosion.

The reason I'm posting here again on this subject is to tell you conspiracy theorists that the US Media is NOT controlled by the gov't. Please, take it from me. If they ignore a story about flying saucers it's market forces at work, they think they'll look silly or whatever. The US media answers to one higher power: advertisers. How the hell could a gov't or any one organisation control the output of thousands of TV stations and tens of thousands of radio stations and newspapers?

If America feels rudderless and without guidence re the media, don't blame the political system - you can either go to the mall and graze like sheep or get it together and take action. But it's your system and you pay for it with 30%+ of your paychecks so don't blame it for everything that accidentally goes wrong (TW800) or the horrible shallow press which spreads ignorance and blank minds.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Twotterwrench
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2001 5:57 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:53 pm

Initially, cedar, there WAS evedence of a missle strike. A very senior flight attentdant at TWA, I am sorry I can't remember her name, pilfered several of the seat cushions from the accident and had them independantly tested. Surprise! They showed traces of rocket exhaust. This didn't make it far in the main stream media because she was summarily arrested and the evidence supressed and/or destroyed. if you think this doesn't happen in the US, ask Vince Foster how safe he felt being involved with the US government. Or how about Ron brown? Think the President can't destroy a 737 to keep a certain someone from testifying? I am not saying that any of this directly bears on the incident with TWA 800, but it does show how far certain people in the gov will go to keep things quiet. As far as no evidence of a missle being found on the airframe, the center fuel tank showed evidence of both implosion AND explosion. This is VERY hard to explain if you are going with the spontaneous combustion theory don't you think? Implosion = close proximity detonation of a surface to air missle seeking center mass. Explosion = fuel in tank exploding due to OUTSIDE ignition source. This is the ONLY explanation that fits the facts.
 
widebody
Posts: 1107
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2000 5:08 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:38 pm

I'm interested in what B757300 said about that missile in the background...was it proven to be a genuine video, and even if the missile was going the wrong way, what was a missile doing in civilian airspace, and what's to say there wasn't another one going in the direction of TWA800?
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:47 pm

I've seen the photo (not video) and it is remarkable. There's no question of what it is. God knows what it's doing there.

For f***'s sake, you seriously think the 737 that crashed in Croatia was deliberate?! It was a very difficult approach with very few landing aids and the pilots were completely to blame for trying to complete the flight. How the hell can a couple of Air Force jocks being reckless be murder? This is the kind of pointless conspiracy theorising that makes it impossible to evaluate the evidence in a TW800 - I don't believe anything any American says about the actions of their gov't because so much of it is patently absurd! If flying a perfectly good 737 into a hillside is an act authorised by Clinton to rub out Ron Brown, then what about ValuJet 592? Lyle Lovett's guitarist was onboard, did Clinton dislike the guy and plot to kill his bandmembers by authorising SabreTech to put unmarked O2 canisters in the hold?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
SJC-Alien
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 1999 1:15 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Mon Mar 12, 2001 11:37 pm

The book by Donald Schmitt and Kevin Randle, the "UFO crash at Roswell", clearly states from first-hand knowledge from interviews from their investigations, that when the local radio station owner in Roswell, NM was going to continue the story on the crashed flying disc, he was called and ordered to 'cease and desist' any transmission about the flying disc, or would have his license lifted, in no uncertain terms.

The Phoenix lights event of March 13, 1997 wasn't reported by all 3 major USA media channels until apprx June 18. 1997.....suspiciously - all 3 medias, ABC, NBC, CBS seemed to think that 2 weeks before the 50th anniversary of the Roswell UFO crash, they ALL had to report it the same night....way after the fact, and of course, they all had to show clips of the UFO fringe arriving in Roswell with flying saucer hats, green suits and tin-foil alien sunglasses to discredit the event. The Gov't also came up with the 'Crash test dummy" parachute drop scenario to explain Roswell. The media let's it go soon after, without fully investigating why this is the second or third explanation. Please note, March 13th, 1997 was the night President Bill Clinton was injured in Florida, and had the knee problem. This may have been due to the President being hustled out of the location he was at due to the grave security issue of the Phoenix lights event, and injured in the process......but no one in the media put 2 and 2 together from the night before vs where the President was and, of course, nobody in the mainstream media reads wire reports from around the USA. Hmmmm.....

How come whenever the TWA800 747 is shown being re-assembled in that hangar, we never see any wing sections being re- assembled?

How many of us have access to all the wreckage of the 737 Ron Brown was on? Sure, it could have flown right into the mountain by pilot error, why haven't others then?

NTSB? Media darlings. I meant the Military may have fired a shoulder launched missle as an exercise for the planes in the sky to detect,,,and it went to TWA instead.

What about the F-117 that crashed outside of Bakersfield, CA several years ago? The media was all over it,,,but then the 'official' report came out and the media dropped it. Turns out it 'was' the stealth fighter after all. No control there, either.

SJC Alien

 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:37 am

What if the Aloha 737 crashed in the Pacific and undersea photos revealed the roof missing? Missile, missile!! 737 just don't spontaneously lose their roofs.

What if the United 747 going to New Zealand didn't make it back to HNL and underwater cameras showed the fwd cargo door and a large section of fuselage ripped away? Why it must have been a bomb, as 747 cargo doors just don't fall of in flight by themselves.

Jet fuel is impossible to ignite without a high energy ignition source. Well, I'm no tank diver but I read standard practice in the fuel tank is not to use safety wire due to possibe static discharge hazard.

You're only as good as your last departure.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:34 am

SJC Alien, you have too much free time or something. Clinton's knee injured, aliens, bollocks. Ron's ill-fated 737: "Sure, it could have flown right into the mountain by pilot error, why haven't others then?" Another scrupilous investigation by professionals buried and a whitewash in it's place? Actually Controlled Flight Into Terrain (CFIT) is by far the most common cause of accidents. It DOES happen all the time. Your Screenname says it all, subscribing to these ridiculous ideas is a hobby and why not, but don't post such rubbish here as though it's fact.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6374
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:48 am

As much as I don't want to belive it,I belive that a missile did take town TWA 800. I also belive that if the U.S. government admitted to this there would be a riot to end all riots!! Just think-a government shooting down an unarmed commercial jetliner!!

Scott
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
Guest

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:10 am

Well i think it very well could have been a missile, but if it were the navy would have to act quick to cover it up because missile fragments would have been found in and around the crash site. Another very possible but very unlikely theory is the meteorite theory because a small hole was found that pierced through the fuselage,
tom
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:38 am

Its ashame that during the investigation, several government agencys such as NTSB, FAA, FBI, etc were in a power struggle to be in charge of the investigation. As a result not sharing information amongst themselves, causing some of the public to cry cover-up.

Again, watching the hearings on C Span a couple of years ago was very enlightening. Metalurgists, engineers and scientists don't make good copy, but are the ones who actually seek and find real answers to critical questions.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
advancedkid
Posts: 740
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 1:27 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:04 am

Hi there,
Even if the supposedly bare cables within
the Jet-A tank would spark and cause
the fuel to ignite it would not have caused
an explosion that tore the entire plane apart.
The massive explosion must have come from
another source.
Kindest regards
Advanced
 
SJC-Alien
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 1999 1:15 pm

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:40 am

To clarify a couple points that 'Cedarjet' has an issue with:
Due to my time squeeze, I didn't properly proof-read my sentence....and I'm sorry. What I meant to say on Ron Browns 737 crash in the mountains, why didn't it happen before, I meant with US Military 737's flying into that airport all the time, over the mountain where Ron Brown's crash was. Does anybody know how many 737 flights were being done at that time, in and out of that airport? Sure, I've seen many reports on Airbus' crashing into the mountains, but that's another thread.

Cedarjet, I'm recommending a couple of books by one of your Country-men, author Timothy Good. It's called "Alien Contact" - read that book, and his other book, "Above Top Secret" - and then tell me it is 'rubbish'. I highly recommed you read them, because the reason I read this kind of book, is because I like to read how the Gov't keeps things quiet. They work R-E-A-L hard at keeping things they don't want us to know about quiet. The F-117 Stealth was very hushed up, but many people knew it was operational, heard it but didn't have all the answers. Some man in Carmel/Monterey, California - even had a fuzzy picture of one that was published in one of the Popular Mechanic type magazines. Oh no, doesn't exist, the Gov't says.(Well..neither confirm nor deny it) but when they needed to make it operational and use it in daylight...Voila...! Seems everybody's piece of the puzzle now fit. So they 'were' telling the truth after all on what they saw,,,,but without proof, nobody really believed them....right?(so the Gov't CAN keep a secret, can't they?)(Kinda like a UFO sighting,,,,eh?) How many hundreds of people do you think were involved with the F-117 program, Cedarjet? Many years of quiet time from the F-117 boys!!.....

Let's watch and see what happens when the newest stealth aircraft becomes operational,(commonly referred to as 'Aurora') and we hear about it,,then,,,back track and look up the evidence...such as the British man who spotted a large triangle shaped aicraft re-fueling behind a KC-10 extender from an off shore drilling platform in the North Sea a few years back. What about the vapor trails commonly called 'Donuts on a rope"...ever seen the photos? Not all pieces are available yet....

This is all the reason why people believe in conspiracies, UFO's and the like,,,because TWA flight 800 has too many unanswered questions. Far too many people saw something but don't have all the pieces of the puzzle. I post what I feel, under MY name,,,and I really don't care what people think..You don't scare me, CedarJet...I know what I read, and have seen, and I can sure tell when somebody contradicts themselves.

Like I posted above here, bring in witnesses to a murder trial....for the Prosecution to build a 'strong' case. The jury listens...and based on the evidence OR circumstantial evidence....will convict or aquit a person charged with murder.....and I'll say it again.....the people who saw something different on TWA 800 have a piece of the puzzle. They don't have all the pieces, but I'll say it here...why shouldn't they be believed? Take all the eyewitnesses from around the area of the crash, let them all...and I mean all of them say what they saw in a court of law..and I bet a jury would have to agree...something happened other than a fuel tank explosion. Otherwise, all murder convictions should be tossed out, because a lot of jury trials are based on what people saw or heard! So why would the people who witnessed something around the TWA crash be less credited?

CedarJet....have you read the other web pages on TWA 800? Give me some reasons why the eyewitnesses statements/accounts shouldn't be believed? Put yourself in their place and imagine it's you giving your story.

There are too many questions left unanswered. If you go back and count the threads here, how many seem to think it was missle and how many don't..? Just like JFK-RFK-MLKjr- Moon landings - The Shuttle explosion - Cydonia on Mars - Roswell - but it's all rubbish.

SJC Alien

 
cicadajet
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 1:54 am

RE: Who Here Believed The Missile Theory Of TWA800?

Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:01 pm

actually regarding the FAA and the NTSB, their relationship during the TWA 800 was quite interesting. NTSB wanted FAA to retract or clarify statement to the effect that radar showed fast moving object or the like appeared to close in on TWA 800 right before the incident. FAA responded that no clarification was needed, statement spoke for itself. This is not from the conspiracy websites; I remember it well. A couple of days later, NTSB slammed FAA on unrelated event. could all mean nothing really; the radar or initial statement just misunderstood by press or laymen or whatever, but it does fit the conspiracy ideas though.