englandair
Posts: 2193
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:34 am

Can A Transatlantic A330 Be 100% J Class...

Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:23 am

Do you think it would be possible to fill an A330-200 with 100% business class seating and sell enough seats between STN and the US to make a proffit or just break even?
This is what Blue Fox hope to do.
Although it was origonally rumored that B767-300s would be used, the CEO himself (Michael Lord-Castle) has been quoted as saying that A330s will be used for their flights which are expected to commence in Jan 2001.
Apparently, Blue Fox's PR group have persuaded the company not to go ahead with a press release (which was due last week) for a while, so we don't know what US destinations or how many a/c are proposed.

But I think that the A330 would be far too big to operate a 100% J class service. How many seats would they have to sell on each flight to make the proffit greater than the operating costs?
What do those of you who know abit more about transatlantic business class loads think?
Could they fill a whole A330 from Stansted?

I'm sure they know what they're doing, but I doubt (if it gets off the ground) that Blue Fox will stay 100% business for long.

Cheers,
Jamie.
 
Logos
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 10:47 pm

RE: Can A Transatlantic A330 Be 100% J Class...

Mon Mar 12, 2001 5:33 am

I agree; it's hard to imagine, especially if they charge normal J fares.

Gordon Bethune was supposed to have ruminated over the idea of configuring a 73G for transatlantic flight in all-J configuration to add frequency on popular routes. If anything would work, I would think that would have a better chance.

Cheers,
Dave in Berlin
Too many types flown to list
 
ba319-131
Posts: 8159
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 1:27 pm

RE: Can A Transatlantic A330 Be 100% J Class...

Mon Mar 12, 2001 5:42 am

He's having a laugh,it will never work.

BA319-131
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
englandair
Posts: 2193
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:34 am

RE: Can A Transatlantic A330 Be 100% J Class...

Mon Mar 12, 2001 6:27 am

Also, the flights will be from Stansted!
Incase you don't know, Stansted is in Essex and is quite along way from London. Infact it's going against the Trades Description Act calling it London Stansted!
Also, there are (IMO) rather bad connections. Most of the other airlines flying to/from Stansted are 'no frills' and charter airlines, hardly suitable for business class pasengers!

Gatwick would be a much more suitable base, I feel.

BTW There is also 'Newlines' (code name) who are begining 100% J class 2xdaily B752 STN-JFK. A much wiser aircraft for this type of airline IMO.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8103
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Can A Transatlantic A330 Be 100% J Class...

Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:41 am

If there is one sure way of making an airline fail, it's an all J-class service. Can anyone spell Legend? Can anyone spell Attractive Frequent Flyer Destinations?

Virgin, BA, Continental, American, United, Kuwait among others provide professional, excellent J-class trans-Atlantic products with a massive choice of frequency from close-in airports (LHR and LGW) offering lots of connections on code sharing airlines.

The FF question: working business people who travel back and forth away from their families collect FF points and their airline is chosen on the basis of where they want to spend their precious vacation. BA offer places like the Seychelles, Thailand, Florida, a dozen islands in the Caribbean, Australia... AA, UA and CO offer Hawaii, California, skiing in the Rockies...

The only other factor is the relationship between the business travel agency and the airlines, and this is completely sown up. Blue Fox and Newlines (what crappy names btw) don't stand a chance on either issue.

They will both prove once more, as though it were needed, that the best way to make a small fortune in the airline business is to start with a LARGE fortune.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8103
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Can A Transatlantic A330 Be 100% J Class...

Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:52 am

Sorry to go on, but I can't emphasise enough how protective BA et al are of their business traffic. I observed this up close when I owned my own consolidator (bucket shop) in 92-95, at the height of the BA vs VS 'dirty tricks' campaign. These people have been doing this for a long time, they're VERY good at what they do and it's not a game, it's life or death. Billions of ££s are at stake. Predatory isn't the word. Blue bloody Fox and New f***in' Lines are going to be eaten for breakfast. The end will be fast and brutal. While I like competition and new start-ups and variation when I look at a row of tails sticking out of a terminal building line-up, I almost relish the fate of these two cos their naivete is so breathtaking they deserve to fail. There are plenty of markets they could serve and make money and not ruffle feathers. Do we really need more flights from London to NY?

If I seem a bit uncaring (someone's going to do a lot of work and lose their fortune after all), it's just the stupidity of these business plans that irritate me - case in point: what the hell was the deal with Swiss World? Swissair moves all their long haul flying to Zurich, the good people of Geneva are up in arms, so Swiss World is born, to fly long haul from GVA in the vacuum left by SR. Swissair keep one GVA long haul non-stop in place, to JFK (that's right, SR111). So where do Swiss World start flying to, as their only route? Washington? Tokyo? Bombay? Singapore? No. It's Newark. Fuckwits!
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Logos
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2000 10:47 pm

RE: Can A Transatlantic A330 Be 100% J Class...

Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:44 am

Amen, Cedarjet.

I keep reading on this board what the horrible monsters at AA did to poor Legend. Get over it. It's all about a viable business plan and FF loyalty plays a huge role in that.

I like new airlines as much as the next fellow but so many people on this board (mostly the 13-16 year old crowd, though some of them show remarkable maturity, too) seem to think that airlines exist simply to put their favorite aircraft in cool looking livery. It's a business and a highly competitive, high profile one at that. Not for the faint of heart (or the poor of business plan).

Cheers,
Dave in Berlin
Too many types flown to list
 
aa737
Posts: 830
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Can A Transatlantic A330 Be 100% J Class...

Mon Mar 12, 2001 11:25 am

The A330 does seem a bit large for all biz class. I agree with the others that have states FF miles have a huge part to do with choosing an airline. From personal experience, I know my dad and a number of people he works with fly hundreds of thousands of miles a year on international trips, and they are always in biz class. All of these guys will fly only one or two airlines, and then use all the FF miles for family trips to upgrade or get a free ticket. Also, STN is a horrible place to get business guys. I have flown out of there, and it is not an easy or quick place to get to from the city, especially for businessmen who are on a tight schedule. If they can get to the same destination from LHR then STN, they will choose LHR.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8103
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Can A Transatlantic A330 Be 100% J Class...

Mon Mar 12, 2001 5:33 pm

"Poor of business plan" - Dave In Berlin, I like your style. Haha.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
BostonBeau
Posts: 488
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 11:55 pm

RE: Can A Transatlantic A330 Be 100% J Class...

Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:47 pm

Several airlines in the US have tried an "all business" or "all first class" service...and none has been successful. You figure an average B747 has 24-30 Business class seats, and sometimes not even all these are filled, or may be filled with upgrades. These airlines proposing an "all business" service will have to get a lot more people than that on board just to meet costs. On a typical intercontinental flight, the airline might not make a profit in the economy cabin because of discounting, but the people in those seats do help to pay for the costs of operating the flight. And will these airlines carry cargo? Cargo and express service contributes a lot to the profit a flight may make. One reason VS wants to move its BOS flight from LGW to LHR is so that they could carry a full load of cargo (the runway length at LGW precludes this now).

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