DIA
Topic Author
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Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:25 am

This seems to be a hot topic.

Denver is in the forefront of gaining more international nonstops. Many of you say "it won't happen." Many others say "Denver is the next gateway city to the world." I think that the truth is somewhere in between.

Denver is a hot topic right now for Air France, ANA, JAL.
Lufthansa is starting their nonstop to Germany any day now using an A340. BA has a packed flight everyday on their 744. United is set to start their nonstop to Germany with a 777. Canada traffic has shot through the roof. Mexico is as strong as ever too.

DIA will never be an LAX or JFK. It will be attractive to many travelers who wish to fly through an updated and uncrowded hub.

The next ten years will show that the "Giant" is waking up to new potential not realized before.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
travelin man
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:02 am

I agree with you that DEN has a lot of growth potential. In my response to BA in the Korean Airlines post, I was specifically pointing out the fact that Korean Airlines most definitely pulled out due to lack of demand (20% load factor to me indicates a lack of demand).

As you said, there will be some new service in the future. Lufthansa is beginning their flight soon. (British Airways is a daily 777, not 744 by the way).

However, many airlines have reduced or cut service entirely, including Korean Airlines and Air Canada with their YUL flight.

DEN is a nice airport. But you are correct when you say it will never be LAX, JFK, or ORD in terms of international destinations/carriers. But I'm sure it will grow. Maybe DEN could start with a non-stop to Hawaii...
 
DIA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:45 am

KAL 744Combi service was a flop.

I saw the BA 744 three weeks ago. I thought they went from a 777 to a 744 a while back and have used it since. Have they really switched back? If they did, is it because BA wants to pull all 747 service out of Gatwick?

I see Air Canada's A320s and A319s at DIA all the time, although I don't remember their destinations.

DEN had a nonstop to Honolulu from UA and Continental when Stapleton was in use. What happened?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
watewate
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 3:54 am

On DEN-HNL,
Continental pulled out of Denver completely and United would rather have those low-yield passengers transit through SFO rather than tie up a/cs on a route that won't make much money (if any). Hawaii flights are filled with tourists and FF miles redeemers.
 
DIA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 4:01 am

Continental still serves Newark, Cleveland, and Houston from DIA.

About the HNL pullouts, I agree. It all comes down to money and, well, money.

Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
travelin man
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 4:06 am

The 744 may have been a substitution, but the current schedule indicates the BA flights are 777s.

As far as HNL goes, with 2 hubs on the west coast (LAX & SFO), United is trying to funnel Hawaii traffic through there. United even cut its ORD-HNL flight (although this was more to do with the crew rest areas on 2-class 777s than anything).
 
watewate
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 4:07 am

I meant to say CO shut down its hub operations, not pulling out of the market completely. Sorry for any confusions.
 
DIA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 5:05 am

United and Frontier have hubs at DIA.

Who would be the most likely to set up shop next?

American was looking at it, but the TWA St. Louis hub pretty much swamps that idea.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
Guest

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 5:06 am

DIA is a joke.

No other airline is gonna hub there until they reduce their fees. And perhaps move closer to town.
 
redraider
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 5:33 am

1. Why would AA establish a hub, or significantly increase their presence in DEN and go head to head, nose to nose with UA in another market, this time at a decided disadvantage due to UA's long-standing presence there?

2. Regarding JAL, while the DEN market may appeal to the Japanese, in this day and age, its all about connections and code-shares. ANA seems to me a much more logical choice to start any DEN service because of the ties with UA through the Star Alliance.

my $.02
My wife can't wrestle, but you should see her box.
 
ampropilot2b
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 5:34 am

Was American really looking at Denver as potential hub (NO, I'm not asking for sources lol...) ? That would really make things interesting! While DEN is nothing like ORD, it would be interesting to see AA and UA competing for yet another hub  Smile Fares would definitly fall!!! I know that the people of Denver are itching for more competition...maybe a substantial presence by another major would be the catalyst DEN needs.

Just my thought....

Ampropilot2b
 
Guest

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 9:17 am

Don't count on anyone else moving into denver. Denver would have been far better off had stapleton stayed open. DIA was built because some forecaster predicted a similar "sleeping giant" in the 80's. Total passenger volume out of denver actually only marginally increased since 88', making DIA pretty much a huge waste of tax dollars. Stapleton had less runways and they were pretty much on top of eachother, but i could care less about a few weather delays if the fares were lowered back to the way they were when stapleton was in operation. Continental also might have kept their hub operation intact if it wasn't for "pena's folly". Even if they didn't, AA might have moved in to take their place back then. UA has shown no love for the citizens of denver and i believe united would have nothing to do with denver if ORD had an unlimited amount of slots.
 
BA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 9:37 am

DEN is pretty cool. It will never be a ORD, LAX, or JFK, I knew that all along. Yes some flights were a flop, but Korean Air's flight was not pulled out completely due to lack of demand. There was a good amount of travelers who connected in SFO and continued on to SEL on United.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Guest

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 9:38 am

Yeah BA, you knew it all along. How old were you when it was completed? 9 or 10?
 
BA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 9:52 am

WISHIHADALIFE,
I NEVER said that DEN would become an international gateway like LAX, ORD, JFK, etc. NEVER. All I said was that Denver is on many international airlines lists.

I was 11 when it was completed.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
An-225
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 9:55 am

I think during winter months BA operates 777 and then it goes back to 747-400. I saw BA 747-400 in DIA many times. Of course, DEN will never be like ORD, JFK or LAX - but it might come close. I hope we see more international traffic down here. By the way, Lufthansa starts their Frankfurt service on March 25th, using A - 340-300. I will be there when it arrives.
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
BA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 9:56 am

One more thing,
I'm not going to argue with you today. I have better things to do. So save whatever you have to say against me.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
DIA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:16 am

In terms of the distance from the heart of Denver, 25 miles, that was part of the city's "master plan." It would eventually lure new businesses and/or existing ones to spark new growth in unused areas. The growth that has occured is on target - according to the Denver Business Journal. The growth that is slated to occur over the next five to eight years actually fills in much of the unused land between Denver and DIA. One of those big buildings going up is actually Frontier's new headquarters. The airport also has another major highway joining it to the "second highway ring" of Denver. The other highway is I-70.

Again, I think DIA has a lot of potential, yes on the national and international scene.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
Pendrilsaint
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:22 am

It will have potential once it gets a new concourse underway...but even I noticed that there were in fact new businesses shooting up along the area traveling to DIA....And they sure do have the space to grow on....heh...it looks like you are going to land in a cornfield if you are landing on 35L until the last second....so there is a lot to go on from here...
 
BA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:25 am

Yes, Denver does have a lot of growth opportunities in its future, since the FAA has lifted some restrictions, and will lift more as soon as the 16,000ft. runway is completed.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
dia77
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:40 am

Every new airport has it's critics (tight ass people who aren't too concerned with future infrastructure). Sure, some airports will end up like DFW and some will end up like MCI. DEN was planned so well that I imagine it will follow in the footsteps of DFW. A 4-5 billion dollar sounds like a bargain these days. Anyway here in Chicago we are going through a new airport debate. I personally think that O'Hare should be expanded, but maybe I'm just starting to become one of those tight ass critics. DEN is a masterpiece and in another couple of years I imagine any critics that remain will jump on the bandwagon. Good thing that Chicago and Denver have some mayors with foresight!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:40 am

DEN could be an important airport in terms of winter tourism.

The reason is simple: DEN is close to Aspen, Steamboat Springs, Telluride and Vail, all major winter sports tourism destinations. I think the Colorado tourism authorities should better emphasize this fact and encourage foreign airlines to fly winter schedules from LHR, CDG, FRA and MXP to cater to this crowd.
 
BA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 11:45 am

Another reason why Denver has a good opportunity is because its a major Gateway to different parts of the U.S. Its the 10th busiest airport in the world, to almost every city with a commerical airport in the U.S. (almost). This is the reason why British Airways decided to begin service.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
us330
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 1:20 pm

BA, Denver does not have service to almost every city with a commercial airport. Does Denver have nonstop service to Waco, Texas? Lubbock? Hartford? I think you should have rephrased your statement to read that Denver has service to almost every major city in the U.S. I have news for you: saying DIA is a major gateway ain't saying much. It doesn't make DIA anymore unique than DFW, ORD, SFO, LAX, SEA,MIA, JFK,BOS,YYZ, YVR, STL, ATL, CVG, CLE, IAH, DTW, MSP, PHX, SLC etc., all of which are considered to be major gateways to different parts of the U.S.
 
Guest

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:06 pm

Sure DIA is a nice airport, but it wasn't needed and still isn't needed. Even after years of unprecedented growth, DIA still only handled 38 million passengers last year, a small increase over the 34 million stapleton moved over a decade earlier. For 5 billion dollars, the citizens of denver got a shiny new airport with less gates than the old one. Sure, you can fly pretty much anywhere you want, but you better bring the bank when you're trying to buy a ticket.
 
ampropilot2b
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 2:22 pm

Well, don't ask me for sources or anything like that, but I really think that DIA was a good decision...okay not at the time it was made, but today. First, people usually think about big projects in terms of the present or near future. However, if traffic continues to increase in the next 10-15 years, as the FAA is forecasting, the US will need more hubs, more runways, more gates, more of everything. While I don't think DIA has been what Pena and the mayor hoped it would be, the airport can, and I think will be VERY successful in the future. Colorado and Denver are well poised to accomodate any growth in air travel. They are currently at capacity, but they could grow all the way to Kansas if they needed to (lol)

No matter where you look, virtually every major airport is at or near the maximum capacity it will ever be able to take...except DIA. Well maybe the others will be able to expand, or build a new airport. Well, look how long it took Denver to get the plans done, the taxes approved ,the airport built, then opened, then successful. We're talking about twenty or so years. In twenty years, the airports that are at or near max cap now will be scrambling. And how much will a new airport cost then (w/ inflation and everything?) maybe well over $10 billion, who knows.

Oh well, only time will tell

ampropilot2b

P.S. I know some of you are going to ask for sources, but everything I wrote is just a compilation of things I have read, heard, or thought of. I don't care to defend the credibility of any of it...
 
Guest

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:00 pm

How's the baggage system working?? Is it fixed yet?
 
deltairlines
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 12:16 am

Actually, I believe that UA does fly DEN-BDL, and they are looking at MHT-DEN. The 16000 ft runway will open the airport up more, and I do see Air France moving in there and to SLC soon, with maybe a CDG-DEN-SLC-CDG flight to go against LH and BA and help Delta at SLC.

Jeff
 
flashmeister
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 1:26 am

CO pulled out of DEN not because of the construction of DIA, but because it didn't fit with their recovery plan: they needed to concentrate on EWR, since it was a jewel ready for the taking, and if they had fought it out more with UA, it would have been a bloodbath.

I think that Pena did the right thing with DIA: It was the right airport at the right time. Stapleton was at capacity and even since DIA has opened, traffic is up 10%.

If you're at 110% capacity, you start encountering delays due to capacity, you start having airlines changing their focii, and fares and service will suffer. UA would have never set their eyes on Denver for service expansion (still on the map but sort of replaced for now by IAD) if they were still hemmed in at Stapleton.

DIA is a world-class airport that is finally coming into its own. The 16K runway will be excellent for international service, but the simple fact is that DIA was the right thing at the right time.
 
DIA
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RE: Denver,

Sat Mar 17, 2001 2:37 am

I just read in Flight International Feb20-26 issue that Ansett wants to start service to Denver and Chicago using A340s from Singapore Airlines. They do not want the West Coast cities involved!

My point holds true to the future!
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
Guest

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 5:15 am

Ooooh... Flight International... they know EVERYTHING and they are ALWAYS accurate.

The only thing worse than teenage amateur industry analysts are the grown up amateur industry analysts who publish "aviation magazines" (and I use the term loosely).
 
BA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 6:51 am

WishIhadalife,
You have not been any help or have not provided any sources on this board. All you do is whine. "Ooooh... Flight International... they know EVERYTHING and they are ALWAYS accurate." If you don't have anything smart to say, don't say it at all. Keep those statements to yourself.

DIA,
Ansett wants to start service to Denver? Its FIRST U.S. flights to Denver? I find that hard to believe, but whatever.

Us330,
Keyword, I said "almost," that does NOT mean EVERY commericial airport in the U.S.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Guest

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:02 am

While passenger traffic has increased 10%, it is also important to note most of the 34 million moved by stapleton was done in smaller narrow-body jets. The record for aircraft movements in a single day in DEN is still held by stapleton at 1700+. DIA stays around the 1400 mark. So while total passenger numbers have gone up, it is only because UA started flying more 777's into denver in the late 90's. The only part of stapleton that was at capacity was UA's concourses A&B. Before construction on DIA even started, CO started moving flights to it's cleveland hub, and concourse D was largely unused.
While having at 16k runway at DIA will no doubt help in bringing in foreign carriers, it doesn't help the fact the residents of denver have to pay some of the highest fares in the country.
 
Guest

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:17 am

BA - you annoy me. But its heartening to see that I annoy you too.

One day, when you realize that there is a big world outside of destinations served nonstop from DEN, come back and talk to us.

Until then, I fear your arguments are filled with incorrect statements of fact, childish rhetoric and a continual need to assert your self worth (which I can assure you is negligible).
 
BA
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RE: Denver,

Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:24 am

I have been to Europe more than 10 times in my life. Don't tell me I don't know whats out there. I've even been to the Middle East. I've been to MIA, ORD, JFK, LAS and MANY airports in the U.S.

So don't tell me, I don't know whats out there, because I know a lot what is out there.

As for the facts, you wish not believe them.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:29 am

Yes, I am young, I'm not saying I'm not. Yes, I don't know everything about the world.. But your making it sound as if I don't know anything, like a 4 or 5 year old. Well I'm 15 turning 16 soon, big difference. I'm about to get my driving permit.

Also, for my facts, they sound childish to you. They are not false, even though you wish not to believe them.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
B747-437B
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:33 am

Jeez BA, lighten up will you! Professor Vlad is just yanking your chain and you are falling for it hook, line and sinker.

I am sure you are probably one of the most travelled 13 year olds out there, but it doesn't change the fact that you are usually full of sh*t. Kinda like the boy who cried wolf; no one believes a word you say now.

Want an honest opinion? Its sometimes a good tactic to sit tight and not respond to the folks who bait you, because they sit back and laugh while you make a bigger fool of yourself. And don't tell me you don't care, 'cos you wouldn't be replying if you didn't!

Also, on the issue of DEN. I have been through more airports than I can care to remember, but DEN stands out as one of the more annoying ones because of its total lack of need to exist. Stapleton was doing just fine, and a logical solution would have been to explore infrastructural improvements and a phased transition to a multi-airport system (which would have allowed for an effective connection and O&D traffic flow with proper yield management systems), rather than building this monstrosity located halfway to Wyoming. Two thumbs down to DEN. A classic example of pork barrel projects and the price John Q Public pays for them. DEN is indeed a sleeping giant, but sadly it may emulate Rip Van Winkle in that it will be asleep for 20 years.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Guest

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:41 am

Well I'm 15 turning 16 soon, big difference. I'm about to get my driving permit


Damn, you are sooo old and experienced. I wish I could be like you.
 
Guest

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:44 am

BA my dear young friend. A driving permit is all well and good, but a boy truly becomes a man when he learns to change his own diapers.
 
BA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:47 am

Okay.....I don't quite understand that, but okay. Driving permit was just to prove to you, that I'm not a 4 or 5 year old. Thats all.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Guest

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:51 am

If you were four or five you wouldn't be able to put together complete sentences. Then again....
 
B747-437B
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:52 am

Some people never learn. *sigh*
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
BA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 7:58 am

B747-437B,
Haven't you noticed that I have ignored your last 3 posts? I told you, I am not going to argue with you. Think whatever you want. For all I care, think that Comair is buying 747s. I could care less. Give up!

As for me never learning, you seem to never learn either. I told you to save whatever you have to say, because I'm not going to argue with you. But you continue. You just want to start an arguement with me. Well, I'm sorry, I've got better things to do.

Good bye.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 8:05 am

Ummm? My last 3 posts? Considering that I have only 2 posts on this thread, I think you may be confusing me with someone else.

Its highly amusing to watch you, Wish and Booyala sparring. Having watched that pair take on other precocious teens in the past and send them crying to mommy, I would not want to be in your shoes.

Nonetheless, you just lost every last bid of goodwill that I may have had for you.

Ta Ta
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
BA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 8:14 am

Your 3rd post is in the Korean Air post that I made.

All you have been doing is criticising EVERYTHING I say. THAT is why I told you that I'm not going to argue with you. Because you haven't proven anything to me yet. All you have been doing is criticising what I say. Go look at your previous 3 posts (1 of them is in the Korean Air post), and you will see, that all you have been doing is criticising me, nothing more.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
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RE: Denver,

Sat Mar 17, 2001 8:36 am

Actually, if you bother to read my posts on this topic, you will notice that I included a rather substantial paragraph on the viability of DEN and an analysis of its need versus the utility of Stapleton.

I didn't criticize you either, but merely included a bit of advice for you. You are free to accept or ignore it.

I think you are way too thin skinned for your own good. Do you have any friends?
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 8:43 am

BA, if you had any brains, you'd give up before the three of them beat you into further submission...

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
BA
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 8:45 am

Yes, I have MANY friends. What do you mean "way too thin skinned", you say that a lot but I have never understood what you meant.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 8:48 am

FLY777UAL,
You are making it sound as if this is a war. Well its not.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
FLY777UAL
Posts: 4830
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RE: Denver, "The Sleeping Giant?"

Sat Mar 17, 2001 8:49 am

BA, repeat after me:

"I'm rubber and you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you."

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L

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