b757300
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Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:39 am

Boeing mulling Mach .95 aircraft in 757-767 category


NEW YORK, March 21 (Reuters) - Boeing Co. , the nation's largest commercial aircraft maker, on Wednesday confirmed it is working on technology that makes possible a Mach .95 jet in the 757-767 category, or an airplane capable of flying 95 percent of the speed of sound.

Boeing, which earlier announced a restructuring and plans to move its headquarters out of Seattle, said it has spoken with a number of airline customers who expressed "a great deal of interest."

Still, development of a Mach .95 airplane in the 757-767 category is in the most preliminary stages, said Chairman and Chief Executive Phil Condit.

"I am very excited about the possibility," Condit said at a media conference.

Boeing said, simply, that it has the potential for such an aircraft.

14:50 03-21-01

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"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
b757300
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RE: Another Article

Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:44 am

From http://www.boeing.com

Boeing Studying High Performance Commercial Airplanes


SEATTLE, March 21, 2001 - The air travel market always has valued improvements in safety, economic efficiency, and quicker, easier ways of flying. That is what drove the transition from propeller to jets, it is what has caused the rapid expansion of point-to-point flying, it is why airlines work so hard to provide a wide choice of frequencies to travelers. Working with our airline customers, we have identified a set of cost and performance technologies that will allow the design of a radically different airplane. This will give the airlines the opportunity to start another chapter in commercial aviation.

According to Commercial Airplanes President and Chief Executive Officer Alan Mulally, "Our customers have shown significant interest in airplanes that allow passengers to fly where they want to go, when they want to go -- directly to their destinations without the hassle and delay of intermediate stops."

"We are developing designs that would reduce flying time as much as 15 to 20 percent while achieving ranges not possible with current airplanes. These airplanes also will fly higher than current models, offering a more comfortable ride for passengers. And they will be environmentally friendly because they will be quieter at takeoff and landing. Based on work with the 777, Next-Generation 737 and other programs, we see the opportunity to also significantly improve the design/build process for such a new airplane."

Mulally said Boeing is working with a number of airlines, suppliers and partners to determine the specific characteristics of the new airplane.

He added: "We're eager to create a new travel experience for our customers. This is an exciting opportunity for us to take advantage of the airplane performance and cost-reduction technologies we have been developing."


Contact: Susan Bradley, 206-766-2907
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
ILUV767
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:30 am

This is very interesting! I'm wishing for the best. Airlines that are sending 757s and 767s on pond crossings and transcons would benifet from this as the flights are shorter allowing for more flights per day in the same plane. Thus, as a result, airlines can earn more money!  Smile

I wish Boeing the Best, with this project!  Big thumbs up

Go Boeing
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Thu Mar 22, 2001 10:36 am

This is really fantastic. After forty (40) years we may travel five percent (5%) faster than we did on the CV-990!!!
This new "Speedbird 757" will save me 4 minutes and 19 second on a trip to LHR compared to today's ordinary BA 757. This is really a grand new travel experience.
And then, if at the same time they can cut baggage retrieval queue at LHR by 50%, then I will save 1 hour, 4 minutes and 19 seconds. I just can't wait to see it...
Best regards, Preben Norholm
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:24 am

Yes,

One problem though, fuel consumption and prices! Also, another problem is the pollution that goes with it.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:29 am

Good to hear that Boeing is looking more closely at the "new-winged" 757 and 767.
-Tom
 
Fly-by-pilot
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:40 am

I dont think its a new 757 or 767. I think it will only have similar capacity.
 
Guest

Fly-By-Pilot

Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:45 am

Right now, there are several options. A totally new design, or the "new-winged" 757/767. Boeing released a statement that so far, performance results favored the re-winged 757/767. Anyway, even if Boeing does decide to build a new design, I believe that Boeing will also develop the re-winged 757/767.
-Tom
 
desertjets
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FlyerC_B757

Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:38 pm

I think you are missing the point here. In order to make a plane go faster the wing needs to be redesigned in order accomadate this, and this can be done with exisiting engines. The current generation of ultra-fast biz-jets (Citation X, G-V, et al) have proved this can work.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
cruising
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:22 pm

I think this is the project called "Yellowstone". There was news leak a month ago about this project.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:31 pm

I think what may be happening is the possibility we may be seeing Boeing start not one, but two all-new airliner programs some time this decade.

The first one will likely be a replacement for the 757/767 series with a new fuselage design and an all-new, highly-efficient wing that will allow for Mach 0.95 economical cruise. This is probably the Yellowstone project that has been rumored for some time.

The second one will like be the replacement for the Next-Generation 737. Boeing may be looking again at the General Electric UDF and Pratt & Whitney/Rolls-Royce unducted propfan technology, and this may result in a plane almost identical to the shelved 7J7 project of some 13 years ago but with an A320-width fuselage and more efficient wings than the original design. The plane can be scaled to carrying capacities identical to the current 737-600 to 737-900 range, but the new plane will sport seat-mile costs far below that of the 737NG's and very likely more range.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Thu Mar 22, 2001 6:39 pm

This is crazy. If the extra speed (5%, ooh) affects the fuel burn in the slightest then Boeing are screwed. The speed that airliners cruise at is fine, it's the massive queues for check-in, security, an hour on the taxiway, stacking for half an hour over the destination, waiting an hour at baggage claim... The flight itself is the least unpleasant part of the journey. Any airline who operate a jet at M.95 will be at a cost disadvantage, the time saving is negligible, not only from a passenger's point of view but from a utilisation point of view as well - it's not enough of time saving to get in an extra sector where the speed increase will make a difference.

In fact it could even be counterproductive - passengers will pay more to save time but when the inevitable daily delays hit the flights just like they do to M.8 flights, the pax will be more pissed off cos they paid extra to get somewhere faster and lo and behold, they're still sitting at the gate for an extra 90 minutes or holding on a taxiway somewhere for an hour.

PS Existing airliners, especially those born in the 60s, can go faster (707, 727, 747 et al) and indeed used to, my Dad who started travelling on business in the late 60s says flight times used to shorter but after the fuel crises of the early 70s the airlines calculated the most efficient cruising speed and it was between M.78 and M.82; in the old days they used to go at M.84, sometimes even M.88. A Pan Am captain used to do M.88 to Honolulu at 25,000 ft cos he didn't like to be late for his mistress.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
B744F
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:14 pm

sounds like a bulls**t.
for typical 757 secotors cruising at 0.95M will save you something like 5 to 10 minutes. BA LHR-HEL will save 10-11 minutes from current 2:20 flt. time. it is nothing if we think about block time, baggage reclaim, etc.
 
N628AU
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:16 pm

You people whining about fuel burn have it all wrong. The point of Boeing developing this technology would be to introduce NEW TECHNOLOGY that would allow for a more efficient aircraft. This is the same kind of whining about "Global Cooling" that first greeted jet aircraft in the 1950's and 60's.
 
Guest

RayChuang

Fri Mar 23, 2001 12:13 am

I think what may be happening is the possibility we may be seeing Boeing start not one, but two all-new airliner programs some time this decade.

The first one will likely be a replacement for the 757/767 series with a new fuselage design and an all-new, highly-efficient wing that will allow for Mach 0.95 economical cruise. This is probably the Yellowstone project that has been rumored for some time.


I really have to disagree with you here. Really if you look at it, there really is not a replacement design for the 757/767. Anything bigger than the existing design would be too big and heavy for the market they serve. Anyway, there only so much technology you can put into a design. I believe we are at the limit, and for the time being, we are as advanced as we are going to get. I believe Boeing will go ahead with the re-winged 757 and 767.

The second one will like be the replacement for the Next-Generation 737. Boeing may be looking again at the General Electric UDF and Pratt & Whitney/Rolls-Royce unducted propfan technology, and this may result in a plane almost identical to the shelved 7J7 project of some 13 years ago but with an A320-width fuselage and more efficient wings than the original design. The plane can be scaled to carrying capacities identical to the current 737-600 to 737-900 range, but the new plane will sport seat-mile costs far below that of the 737NG's and very likely more range

Again, theres a limit to how far you can update technology. Designing such a new design just for such a small increase in speed is not economically smart. Look at NG sales, I think airlines are happy with current technology. For seat mile costs, theres only so much you can lower those too. Airplanes today are so economical, there is no need for upgrading. Anyway, if anything, I would see Boeing in the future re-engineing the 73 with a newer -56. Also, the NGs wings are also highly economical, and the only major increase that would be worth designing for would be a BWB, which I see as far off.

The best, Tom

 
Purdue Arrow
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 12:26 am

Where are people coming up with a 5% speed increase? Typical cruising speeds for airliners today (including the 757/767) are about .8-.82. A cruising speed of .95 would be an increase of 15.8-18.8%, much more than some people seem to be thinking. (Simple math: .15 increase of cruise speed divided by current cruise speed of .8 = 18.75%). This would result in a savings of roughly 10 minutes per flight hour, would would reduce trans-con flight time by nearly an hour, and would reduce intercontinental flights by significantly more. If it can be done efficiently, why snub the advancement?
 
cedarjet
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:01 am

The reason this is not an achievement is cos none of us live or vacation in airport terminals. Well, I've done both but that's another story. The gridlocked approach roads, the hour long queues for check in, security, all the things we hate about flying, not to mention longer routes and airborne holding patterns cos of Boeing's insistence on more flights in smaller planes (cheers)...these are all part of the journey time from door to door - the only way to measure it. Who cares if you spend an extra hour watching the Larry Sanders Show on the Cult-Tv channel or dozing? The bit when the brakes are released til the bit when the brakes come back on again is the easy bit, I don't give a shit if it's five hours or six, ten or eleven and a half, makes no difference. It's being dicked about at check-in or baggage claim that I hate, or waiting on the tarmac with the aircon not working properly or seeing the same town thirty times in a holding pattern while my connecting flight leaves without me that makes me promise myself to take a train or drive next time.

(In fact a faster cruise on eastbound trans-Atlantic flights from the east coast would be a nightmare, five and a half hours is just enough to get a couple of hours sleep, but four hours overnight, no chance. You'd feel a lot worse I think. It's like cross-Channel ferries overnight, some of them do about 5 knots all night so you get a night's sleep. They could leave at 1 am and get to the other side at 4 am but you'd feel shitty for two days after a night that short.)
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 1:27 am

Intersting. Does more speed mean more range? If so, hoorah! SIA will be happy.

I think this is good however I wouldn't hold my breathe for the new model to come out.

I find it so irritating how it takes so long for BA and AI to get their new planes out! How long can it take!
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
RIX
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:26 am

There is something to think about: fuel efficiency, flight stability, possible sonic boom (to produce it you don't need to be exactly at Mach 1), ... - needless to say, if they really want to design it, they KNOW about these and probably hundreds of other problems to solve.

five and a half hours is just enough to get a couple of hours sleep, but four hours overnight, no chance. - are we talking about the Concorde? M 0.95 won't even make it for 5.5 hours... And how about transpacific routes (the thing won't survive if it doesn't have the range)? I'd say some 12.5 is better than 15... Disregard all possible delays, the saved time is still yours.

...Or is Boeing just trying to say they have something new to offer in future? We'll see...

About "new 737NG" - why not, 737NG is a great success, but don't wait until it is obsolete (didn't this happen to 737 classic?), think about something new right now. The 7J7 idea had a 2-2-2 configuration, looks very attractive, but what about "extra air" to be transported?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:44 am

I think Boeing is looking at reviving the 7J7 design again.

There are some reasons for this:

1. Boeing could introduce a new fuselage design that will have the width of the A320 but with headroom possibly better than the 737NG is now. That will definitely increase comfort in all classes, since seats can be made wider.

2. Propfan technology back in the late 1980's was not yet mature enough for an airliner. However, improvements in engine core design by now and more modern computers will allow for much-improved propfan designs that will offer enough power to take the plane to over Mach 0.80 easily but will have noise levels more akin to a turboprop engine driving a six-bladed propeller. This could mean 20% or more improvements in fuel efficiency, and will allow the plane to easily meet the proposed 2006 ICAO regulations for both exhaust emissions and noise levels.

Don't be surprised that Boeing announces such a project by 2005, and airlines like AA, CO, and DL may convert their current 737NG options to buy this new plane.

Airlines all over the world would welcome such a plane, since it will allow increased operations from noise-restricted airports (especially in California at airports like SFO, SJC, BUR, ONT, LAX, and SNA or US East Coast airports like BOS, LGA and DCA).
 
Purdue Arrow
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:43 am

Are you saying, then, Cedarjet, that nothing should be done to make the flight quicker, that the only advances worth pursuing are those that cut back ground time? If so, you're being pretty naive. Why do you suppose some people paid a fortune to fly on Concorde, because the ground staff was more pleasant? No - it's because airplanes are time machines, and the quicker we can make a flight, the happier the average passenger will be. Being really can't do anything to make check-in quicker or to speed up baggage delivery at your destination, but if they can cut an hour or two off of your flight, then you'll get to your hotel an hour or two earlier, even if the amount of time spent at the airport remains the same. Further, such reductions in flight time would effectively increase airport capacity by making a wider range of time slots viable for use. For example, if the only landing slot American can get at NRT for service from JFK was so early that they'd have to leave an hour before any connecting passengers could arrive at JFK, then a 2 hour reduction in flight time would make that slot usable, as the flight would be able to depart JFK 2 hours later, and an hour after a bank of arrivals brought in connecting PAX. This is, of course, a theoretical example, but the principle is quite real - shorter flight times would make a wider range of slots viable.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 5:12 am

guys,

if this happens,

what will it be called? 787?

HL  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
cedarjet
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 5:24 am

It's not that I think flight should necessarily be kept at the speed it is now, but 18% increase in cruise speed results in a negligible reduction in TOTAL journey time. Concorde is more than TWICE as quick as a 767, which reduces journey time from door-to-door by about 20%. There's your time machine.

What the airlines want is fuel economy. The price of jet juice is only going to go up and up. The service on one airline is utterly indistinguishable from another and the only thing that differentiates in the eyes of the consumer is PRICE. No-one's going to fly United over NW because United have marginally nicer food, it's all airline food to the average punter. If NW is $70 cheaper then NW it is. The speed thing is irrelevant on short flights, agreed? So it's only on long flights that there is a time saving to be had. But if you're going from California to Japan or London, you're not going to step off the plane and go straight into a meeting or shopping frenzy, you're going to walk around in a daze for a couple of hours, have a shower and room service and crash out and do your thing the following day. So you get there an hour and a half earlier? Big deal, all that means is you've got to stay awake an extra hour and a half before something resembling a normal bedtime and you've got $70 or $260 less to spend during the trip.

So, to repeat. Airlines want to offer the cheapest possible product at the lowest possible price. Why do you think Concorde only has 100 seats, and the average load factor is about 50%? Very few people can afford time machines.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Archie Bunker
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 5:54 am

I think the more important issue is that the new plane would cruise at a higher altitude, combined with a faster cruise, it would avoid congested airspace at lower altitude.
 
Purdue Arrow
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:01 am

All aircraft are time machines... why do people pay to fly across the country rather than driving? I'll give you a hint - it's not because of the luxury of air transportation; it because the flight is faster. The reason Concorde has relatively low loads is because of the price, but what makes you think that this aircraft would be anywhere near as uneconomical? There have been large technological advances since Concorde, and there could well be more before this aircraft is built. It is not unthinkable that Boeing may be able to make this an economic aircraft. Also, as has been said, this airplane would fly at higher altitudes, which would result in an even greater groundspeed than already considered... a given true airspeed will result in a higher groundspeed at a higher altitude.
 
Bryston
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:11 am

I read at aviationnow.com that this new design will use "canards". Did another airliner use such technology?

I only see these canards on SAAB fighter...

Bryston
I'd rather be flying...
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:38 am

Good day all,

Check out aviationnow.com. It seems as if this aircraft is an all new design with canards and a delta shaped wing. Very interesting.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 8:50 am

Dear god, please allow Boeing to make this plane! Please give it very long range so that I can get a direct flight from PDX to Sydney, reducing my total travel time from 18 to 13 hours and I will be eternally grateful. Or at least change the stupid noise and environmental laws so we can start going supersonic as nature intended!
 
toxtethogrady
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New Wings Did You Say?

Fri Mar 23, 2001 2:07 pm

Oh no, now they'll have to come up with a Next-Next Generation of 737's! (737-1000, anyone?)
 
N628AU
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 4:36 pm

I think Cedarjet must have spent an afternoon in a blizzard in LGA.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 6:21 pm

Too right, but it doesn't take a blizzard, just Sheer Weight Of Traffic (SWAT) unfortunately. Fix the problems of ground transportation and baggage claim, it's more important.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Citation X
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Fri Mar 23, 2001 10:49 pm

Tu-144 uses canards.


 
RIX
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RE: Boeing Looking @ Mach .95 Aircraft

Sat Mar 24, 2001 1:15 am

Concorde is more than TWICE as quick as a 767, which reduces journey time from door-to-door by about 20%. There's your time machine. - be it an hour on transatlantic flight or three hours on transpacific for Mach 0.95, it is still 1 or 3 hours of my time. Why should I care what "door-to-door %" it is? Since when time is measured in %-s?  Smile. About the price - even a new SST built with present technology would definitely be cheaper to operate than Concorde (but still too expensive to be economically viable). While Mach 0.95 is NOT an SST, it will be no way THAT expensive - otherwise it will never be built.

BTW, when Concorde was in service, I checked several times how many seats were booked there (by thetrip.com). On BA flights it was always much more than 50% - otherwise, why did they have two daily flights?

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